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On March 05 2013 08:27 maru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 08:19 crms wrote:On March 05 2013 08:01 Comeh wrote:On March 05 2013 07:58 crms wrote: I think solo mid is the only reasonable way to play him nowadays. He offers little to nothing in a trilane or in a dedicated puller, lane securer over nearly any other support hero in the pool. He needs levels, he needs farm or he's an insanely long cooldown stunner that instantly dies.
With warlock, you're basically going all-in with a strategy revolved around the warlock pick. He's not a casual support. That's why in recent games it's either raped, or been completely shit on. I wouldn't say its all-in. He's a hero that can 5-man better than most heroes, and his ultimate is also relatively good for pushing towers. He's just really weak to any kind of split pushing, and specific timings of ganks work really well against teams that involve is composition. He's a strong hero - I wouldn't classify him as "all-in" any more than other pure-teamfight heroes. Warlock has literally 1 major, game breaking ability. He has 2 (arguably 3). Fatal Bonds is completely sick. nah, while it's without a doubt his second best ability and has some merit, you can count on one hand the number of times fatal bonds actually made a big play, especially in comparsion with the ability of the other team fight heroes: gale, gush, fissure, enchant totem, malefice, eidolons. It's a better skill in theory than in practice.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On March 05 2013 08:28 crms wrote: you guys suck, me and comeh would have had a better argument about whether warlock is as 'all in' as other team fight heroes or not.
instead you muddled the thread with a pointless semantics debate. Nerds. Dude... farming support. farming. support. You expect us not to be nerdbaited by THAT?
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and a new meme is born in the Dota GD thread.
inn't cute?
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On March 05 2013 08:30 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 08:28 crms wrote: you guys suck, me and comeh would have had a better argument about whether warlock is as 'all in' as other team fight heroes or not.
instead you muddled the thread with a pointless semantics debate. Nerds. Dude... farming support. farming. support. You expect us not to be nerdbaited by THAT?
haha, it was a good bait, but I think everyone is actually serious so now I'm not sure what's going on. I understand what both sides are trying to say and I don't really like the way Xizor uses the terms but it's not as cool as warlock discussion. ^_^
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On March 05 2013 08:28 SKC wrote:It's amazing when every single person disagrees with you and you still can choose to blame their lack of inteligence on why they don't understand you. Perhaps when everybody disagrees with you, you are the one that is doing something wrong. You are clearly smarter than every single TL poster so far. Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 08:26 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 05 2013 08:24 SKC wrote:
If you chose to not call him carry necro, it was because the carry was implied. Not because he was a support. People just knew that he was the carry for that game. Same thing with Krob. Carry Krob. Thats. my fucking point. WTF. when the carry is implied on a supportive character that is fucking farming support. On March 05 2013 08:25 PassiveAce wrote: I disagree with your characterization of support. By your definition a necro who goes mid and goes radiance skadi daed without buying support items is still a support because he uses he's... helping his team by using his spells? thats what every hero does regardless of role. WAT? you aren't even reading now -.- You build for damage when carrying semi carry ect, you build utility for farming support on supportive heroes. if i go dead skadi radiance that isn't utility at all. thats damage. i would call that carry necrolyte. while regular necrolyte would be getting his shivas/mek/blood/aghs/ect You said the exact opposite some time before. You said being a support is intrinsic to the hero. So a farm priority necro would still be a support. Unless you are saying he is both, you make no sense.
well the thing is though he tends to do that a lot like a loooot
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Valve plan buff warlock to sell skins gg bli$$ard
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On March 05 2013 08:30 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 08:27 maru~ wrote:On March 05 2013 08:19 crms wrote:On March 05 2013 08:01 Comeh wrote:On March 05 2013 07:58 crms wrote: I think solo mid is the only reasonable way to play him nowadays. He offers little to nothing in a trilane or in a dedicated puller, lane securer over nearly any other support hero in the pool. He needs levels, he needs farm or he's an insanely long cooldown stunner that instantly dies.
With warlock, you're basically going all-in with a strategy revolved around the warlock pick. He's not a casual support. That's why in recent games it's either raped, or been completely shit on. I wouldn't say its all-in. He's a hero that can 5-man better than most heroes, and his ultimate is also relatively good for pushing towers. He's just really weak to any kind of split pushing, and specific timings of ganks work really well against teams that involve is composition. He's a strong hero - I wouldn't classify him as "all-in" any more than other pure-teamfight heroes. Warlock has literally 1 major, game breaking ability. He has 2 (arguably 3). Fatal Bonds is completely sick. nah, while it's without a doubt his second best ability and has some merit, you can count on one hand the number of times fatal bonds actually made a big play, especially in comparsion with the ability of the other team fight heroes: gale, gush, fissure, enchant totem, malefice, eidolons. It's a better skill in theory than in practice. Not sure what you're talking about, but it's not hard to get off a decent Bond on multiple heroes (on a regular basis), and they'll melt. Ever seen what happens if you get a good Bond off and your SK jumps in with ult? It's kind of like Maledict, but with insane range and aoe.
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Well, it's one thing to get a good fatal bonds off, it's another thing to make use of it with the right follow up without your ultimate.
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This is imho a word issue, nothing else.
-A hero whos skillset on paper lend him for a certain role could be called as belonging into that role per definition. At least if we're not talking about Dota hero card ranking. -And since we're not using anything besides carry and support, one may call everything that is not a carry a support. -One could also speak about early game heroes, mid game heroes and late game heroes, depending on which part of the game they have their power peak in. -Option 4 would be to call a hero that in any way benefits his team and doesn't carry(so not sven) is a support, while people that only help or buff themselves are carries. This would be including bought items like Mekansm and Pipe. -The last option would be to call farm priority 1 carry and farm priority 5 support.
Going by the list of + Show Spoiler +warlock, Necrolyte, enigma, windrunner, treant, puck ect. I can only assume we're talking about method 2: not carry->support
Here is a list of 5 methods, we all pick one so everyone knows what we mean when we say support. Stop misunderstanding each other and then stop having a hissy fit about which of these naming conventions is the best. I personally like naming heroes by their power peaks, but that's about the least used of all of these. Warlock is an early and mid game hero, and sucks lategame.
edit: wow, once I take like 3 minutes to put together a medium sized post and the thread argues 2 pages or something while I'm looking up the heroes on dota2wiki. Calm down, guys.
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On March 05 2013 08:34 Itsmedudeman wrote: Valve plan buff warlock to sell skins gg bli$$ard he's already god tier with that golem.
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On March 05 2013 08:39 Mataza wrote:
Here is a list of 5 methods, we all pick one so everyone knows what we mean when we say support. Stop misunderstanding each other and then stop having a hissy fit about which of these naming conventions is the best. I personally like naming heroes by their power peaks, but that's about the least used of all of these. Warlock is an early and mid game hero, and sucks lategame.
but thats not even true at all massive aoe stun that goes through bkb (with potential of it being a double w/ refresher orb)
plus ridic team damage with fatal bonds
+ all of this is best while fighting @ rax
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On March 05 2013 08:41 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 08:39 Mataza wrote:
Here is a list of 5 methods, we all pick one so everyone knows what we mean when we say support. Stop misunderstanding each other and then stop having a hissy fit about which of these naming conventions is the best. I personally like naming heroes by their power peaks, but that's about the least used of all of these. Warlock is an early and mid game hero, and sucks lategame. but thats not even true at all massive aoe stun that goes through bkb (with potential of it being a double w/ refresher orb) plus ridic team damage with fatal bonds + all of this is best while fighting @ rax it's also incredibly good in smoke ganks not just pushing up a base or defending one.
BTW guys its just incredibly frustrating when it seems like you guys aren't understanding the language i am speaking.
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I think it is better to refer to the role to position 1-5, rather than automatically label 'early game/INT hero' to 'support'. And the position is interchangeable throughout a game. For example you can run a safelane support WL (supposedly to be po5 in team, 0 cs etc)buying minimal support item but rushing a naked midas at 10+mins just so he can secure his agha in this game asap, so he would be like at farming priority po2-4 during a small period of time, and then he would be back to his 'ward bitch' role. I actually did something like that a few days ago.
Otherwise Carry Necro for example is on po1 so he is a carry rather than an (underleveled/undergeared) po4/5 support BUT he looks exactly like a rich support because he would be having a Mek/Pipe/Arcane and probably helping to buy some wards too.
Is just that dota is a very flexible game. People are just lazy/selfish/stupid to prefer to play a fixed role in pub because it would be easier (for them to adjust their role). For example you run Zeus just to gain level advantage earlier but you can transition to hardsupport afterworth because a Zeus is not going to the win the game on his own if he keep taking all the resources (zeus doesnt need any resources) from his team.
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Depends how you enter the mid-late game. If the other team has a fed carry/right clicker (ideally with diffusal) then even if you have more golems the golems are still going to melt. Your best shot is to take the carry out of the fight while they're disable and the more the game goes on the less likely that becomes. The only time this works is if warlock has a good level/gold lead and I don't think he's going to get at anything less than 2nd position.
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On March 05 2013 08:39 Mataza wrote: This is imho a word issue, nothing else.
Exactly, and the terminology has a widely known and accepted definition, so if someone misuses the term people will correct him.
(Also, WL doesn't suck late)
On March 05 2013 08:39 Itsmedudeman wrote: Well, it's one thing to get a good fatal bonds off, it's another thing to make use of it with the right follow up without your ultimate. You have a team?
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On March 05 2013 08:45 BurningSera wrote:
Otherwise Carry Necro for example is on po1 so he is a carry rather than an underleveled/undergeared po4/5 support BUT he looks exactly like one because he would be having a Mek/Pipe/Arcane and probably can help to buy some wards too.
this is literally what i consider a farming support. a character who is not intrinsically about dealing damage, that when played standard gets high farm priority and chooses to spend it on utility items for his team this meaning farm priority above offlaning. you would be playing necrolyte when doing the above, carry necrolyte would be like radiance aghs heart treads or something mean to deal damage. support necrolyte would be running him as a 4 or 5 position.
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On March 05 2013 08:37 maru~ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 08:30 crms wrote:On March 05 2013 08:27 maru~ wrote:On March 05 2013 08:19 crms wrote:On March 05 2013 08:01 Comeh wrote:On March 05 2013 07:58 crms wrote: I think solo mid is the only reasonable way to play him nowadays. He offers little to nothing in a trilane or in a dedicated puller, lane securer over nearly any other support hero in the pool. He needs levels, he needs farm or he's an insanely long cooldown stunner that instantly dies.
With warlock, you're basically going all-in with a strategy revolved around the warlock pick. He's not a casual support. That's why in recent games it's either raped, or been completely shit on. I wouldn't say its all-in. He's a hero that can 5-man better than most heroes, and his ultimate is also relatively good for pushing towers. He's just really weak to any kind of split pushing, and specific timings of ganks work really well against teams that involve is composition. He's a strong hero - I wouldn't classify him as "all-in" any more than other pure-teamfight heroes. Warlock has literally 1 major, game breaking ability. He has 2 (arguably 3). Fatal Bonds is completely sick. nah, while it's without a doubt his second best ability and has some merit, you can count on one hand the number of times fatal bonds actually made a big play, especially in comparsion with the ability of the other team fight heroes: gale, gush, fissure, enchant totem, malefice, eidolons. It's a better skill in theory than in practice. Not sure what you're talking about, but it's not hard to get off a decent Bond on multiple heroes (on a regular basis), and they'll melt. Ever seen what happens if you get a good Bond off and your SK jumps in with ult? It's kind of like Maledict, but with insane range and aoe.
using pub scenarios to support fatal bonds being 'completely sick'. Just use pro games where Warlock was actually picked, fatal bonds rarely, if ever, made any impactful difference. Is it a nice skill that can sometimes synergize greatly? Sure, is it a 'completely sick' skill? Nah. If that skill is 'completely sick' I wonder what a skill like gale, or the rock itself is, super mega sick? Fatal bonds is usually just a nuisance that's countered in lane by a tango or two.
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On March 05 2013 08:49 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 08:45 BurningSera wrote:
Otherwise Carry Necro for example is on po1 so he is a carry rather than an underleveled/undergeared po4/5 support BUT he looks exactly like one because he would be having a Mek/Pipe/Arcane and probably can help to buy some wards too.
this is literally what i consider a farming support. a character who is not intrinsically about dealing damage, that when played standard gets high farm priority and chooses to spend it on utility items for his team this meaning farm priority above offlaning. you would be playing necrolyte when doing the above, carry necrolyte would be like radiance aghs heart treads or something mean to deal damage. support necrolyte would be running him as a 4 or 5 position.
And the issue is that you are the only one that follows that definition, and tried to correct people who used the usual stuff.
Carry necro used to build the old OP bloodstone, shiva's, hood, etc. Not something to deal damage. Yet everyone called him a carry and noone complained about that definition.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
To me 'carry necro' or 'carry CM' or 'carry X' whatever just means they get more farm priority. It doesn't mean they suddenly go for MKB/Daedalus/Butterfly or whatever, it just means they get more gold and more items. That's just me though, I don't know what other people use.
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On March 05 2013 08:50 crms wrote: using pub scenarios to support fatal bonds being 'completely sick'. Just use pro games where Warlock was actually picked, fatal bonds rarely, if ever, made any difference. Is it a nice skill that can sometimes synergize greatly? Sure, is it a 'completely sick' skill? Nah. If that skill is 'completely sick' I wonder what a skill like gale, or the rock itself is, super mega sick? Fatal bonds is usually just a nuisance that's countered in lane by a tango or two. you usually need a setup or blink/invis rune/smoke to get a good bonds off at the beginning of a team fight, though if initiated upon you can typically get a good bonds 80-90% of the time. Fatal bonds does rediculous amounts of damage in team fights and can be considered the equivalent of the shatter text on an AA ultimate.
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