|
|
On March 05 2013 09:13 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 05 2013 09:00 BurningSera wrote:On March 05 2013 08:49 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 05 2013 08:45 BurningSera wrote:
Otherwise Carry Necro for example is on po1 so he is a carry rather than an underleveled/undergeared po4/5 support BUT he looks exactly like one because he would be having a Mek/Pipe/Arcane and probably can help to buy some wards too.
this is literally what i consider a farming support. a character who is not intrinsically about dealing damage, that when played standard gets high farm priority and chooses to spend it on utility items for his team this meaning farm priority above offlaning. you would be playing necrolyte when doing the above, carry necrolyte would be like radiance aghs heart treads or something mean to deal damage. support necrolyte would be running him as a 4 or 5 position. Mek/Pipe/Arcane etc are signature support items but that doesnt make Necro a po4/5 support when he has them because those items make Necro a monster, you can get heart/radiance if you liked after you snowballed, everything is situational. Ward on the other hand is supposed to be bought by everyone in the team whenever they have that amount of gold to spare. hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. What you are saying is that in your own definition that can happen. Stop saying it can happen to the most common definition, a 1st position support makes literally no sense by the definitions most people go by, as you can see from the comments in this thread. And carry necro/krob/lesh without DPS items are very commonly used. You can call them whathever you want, but realize that this is not the way the vast majority of players use those definitions, and don't try to impose you own definition to other people.
After reading this argument from the start, it actually started with someone else imposing their definition on Xizor, when he called Warlock Wisp combo a "support combo".
All he was trying to say is that Warlock is typically a Support hero whether or not he is actually playing the role of support in game. Which I totally agree with, he even has courier in his suggested starting items.
|
Since we're on the topic of "roles" and the words we use to describe them, I'll chime in with the results of my own group of friends' take on this.
+ Show Spoiler +We value nomenclature pretty highly, as a different interpretation of words can spoil entire games (and relationships). For us, a "carry" is anyone capable of killing any given hero or team by using their own damage. E.g. Medusa is a carry, because she doesn't need damage from her team to 1v5 before the enemy team can just auto attack her down.
A support is one who relies on others to do damage in order to get kills. E.g. A CM can't even 1v1 most heroes before they auto attacker her down, but she sure can hold someone (or some people) in place for a long time for someone else to clean up.
I think, using this definition, it's pretty easy to describe how people are planning to play their hero, without specifying specific items and skills. For example some carries like to get mek, and everyone should buy wards.
It also allows to clarify otherwise vague scenarios. A roaming/ganking VS may build for damage over survivability/utility, causing her to be able to 1v1 any person on their team without being a top farm priority.
You still have to be explicit about your intentions beyond the simple tag of "support" or "carry", like "midgame oriented carry", or "high mobility, initiator support"
|
On March 05 2013 10:46 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 09:13 SKC wrote:On March 05 2013 09:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 05 2013 09:00 BurningSera wrote:On March 05 2013 08:49 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 05 2013 08:45 BurningSera wrote:
Otherwise Carry Necro for example is on po1 so he is a carry rather than an underleveled/undergeared po4/5 support BUT he looks exactly like one because he would be having a Mek/Pipe/Arcane and probably can help to buy some wards too.
this is literally what i consider a farming support. a character who is not intrinsically about dealing damage, that when played standard gets high farm priority and chooses to spend it on utility items for his team this meaning farm priority above offlaning. you would be playing necrolyte when doing the above, carry necrolyte would be like radiance aghs heart treads or something mean to deal damage. support necrolyte would be running him as a 4 or 5 position. Mek/Pipe/Arcane etc are signature support items but that doesnt make Necro a po4/5 support when he has them because those items make Necro a monster, you can get heart/radiance if you liked after you snowballed, everything is situational. Ward on the other hand is supposed to be bought by everyone in the team whenever they have that amount of gold to spare. hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. What you are saying is that in your own definition that can happen. Stop saying it can happen to the most common definition, a 1st position support makes literally no sense by the definitions most people go by, as you can see from the comments in this thread. And carry necro/krob/lesh without DPS items are very commonly used. You can call them whathever you want, but realize that this is not the way the vast majority of players use those definitions, and don't try to impose you own definition to other people. After reading this argument from the start, it actually started with someone else imposing their definition on Xizor, when he called Warlock Wisp combo a "support combo". All he was trying to say is that Warlock is typically a Support hero whether or not he is actually playing the role of support in game. Which I totally agree with, he even has courier in his suggested starting items.
BH has a battlefury in his suggested items - doesn't mean he's a carry.
Edit: Warlock is a 2 - a teamfight specializing hero. If you refine a hero into specified definitions, you simplify them and misunderstand their purpose.
|
I just don't use the carry term anymore, the 1-5 priority system is much clearer. You get lane farm and have priority for last hit over anyone else ? You're 1. Doesn't matter if it's Antimage, OD, Necro or fucking CM. That hero is 1 from start to finish, or up until a certain point depending on your game plan. Carry is way to vague. WTF is a carry ? Someone that relies on right click damage ? Someone who is weak early and strong late ? Someone who gets farm priority ? Someone who just kills everyone ? Too vague.
|
ixmike just trolling tube right now
|
28102 Posts
lol yeah, I was watching that.
|
On March 05 2013 10:52 SpiZe wrote:
I just don't use the carry term anymore, the 1-5 priority system is much clearer. You get lane farm and have priority for last hit over anyone else ? You're 1. Doesn't matter if it's Antimage, OD, Necro or fucking CM. That hero is 1 from start to finish, or up until a certain point depending on your game plan. Carry is way to vague. WTF is a carry ? Someone that relies on right click damage ? Someone who is weak early and strong late ? Someone who gets farm priority ? Someone who just kills everyone ? Too vague.
Actually, carry is a hero who gets farm priority. 1-5 system is basically another way to say that.
To elaborate, some heroes scale very well if given huge amounts of gold and experience, hence they get farm priority and are called carries. But you're right, it doesn't matter whether the hero deals physical dmg, magical dmg etc., whether he is weak early (many carries are not in fact) and so on, as long as he scales well with farm and levels.
|
On March 05 2013 10:49 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 10:46 Myrddraal wrote:On March 05 2013 09:13 SKC wrote:On March 05 2013 09:07 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 05 2013 09:00 BurningSera wrote:On March 05 2013 08:49 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 05 2013 08:45 BurningSera wrote:
Otherwise Carry Necro for example is on po1 so he is a carry rather than an underleveled/undergeared po4/5 support BUT he looks exactly like one because he would be having a Mek/Pipe/Arcane and probably can help to buy some wards too.
this is literally what i consider a farming support. a character who is not intrinsically about dealing damage, that when played standard gets high farm priority and chooses to spend it on utility items for his team this meaning farm priority above offlaning. you would be playing necrolyte when doing the above, carry necrolyte would be like radiance aghs heart treads or something mean to deal damage. support necrolyte would be running him as a 4 or 5 position. Mek/Pipe/Arcane etc are signature support items but that doesnt make Necro a po4/5 support when he has them because those items make Necro a monster, you can get heart/radiance if you liked after you snowballed, everything is situational. Ward on the other hand is supposed to be bought by everyone in the team whenever they have that amount of gold to spare. hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. What you are saying is that in your own definition that can happen. Stop saying it can happen to the most common definition, a 1st position support makes literally no sense by the definitions most people go by, as you can see from the comments in this thread. And carry necro/krob/lesh without DPS items are very commonly used. You can call them whathever you want, but realize that this is not the way the vast majority of players use those definitions, and don't try to impose you own definition to other people. After reading this argument from the start, it actually started with someone else imposing their definition on Xizor, when he called Warlock Wisp combo a "support combo". All he was trying to say is that Warlock is typically a Support hero whether or not he is actually playing the role of support in game. Which I totally agree with, he even has courier in his suggested starting items. BH has a battlefury in his suggested items - doesn't mean he's a carry. Edit: Warlock is a 2 - a teamfight specializing hero. If you refine a hero into specified definitions, you simplify them and misunderstand their purpose.
I just used the courier as an example as to why he is typically + Show Spoiler + a support hero, nevermind the fact that he has abilities that assist in a support role.
I don't understand your edit, you just refined him into a specialised definition and said that simplifies them and misunderstands their purpose, while I was using a general definition and acknowledging that they aren't required to play that role.
|
On March 05 2013 11:08 TheEmulator wrote:
lol yeah, I was watching that.
welp now hes fuckin up big time, he should be owning void with glimpse but heh
|
28102 Posts
On March 05 2013 11:13 FinestHour wrote:welp now hes fuckin up big time, he should be owning void with glimpse but heh
You must have typed this right before he just owned void with glimpse, rofl. Are you watching in game? or ixmike stream?
|
|
|
28102 Posts
On March 05 2013 11:19 FinestHour wrote:
lobby game
ahh ok. Then you must have seen the glimpse on FV right after you posted that.
|
we all know eblade batrider and tube was why scourge won
|
28102 Posts
On March 05 2013 11:27 FinestHour wrote:
we all know eblade batrider and tube was why scourge won
Say Dire, don't be a hipster 
|
until today i still dont know how to spell/pronounce scourge on the fly(mostly just copy from what people write/say).... Scott? Scout? Sour?
|
On March 05 2013 11:29 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 11:27 FinestHour wrote:
we all know eblade batrider and tube was why scourge won Say Dire, don't be a hipster
"what the hell is a scourge rofl this is dota not w.e. MOBA wannabe game ur talking about(LoL)"
|
28102 Posts
On March 05 2013 11:32 NB wrote:
until today i still dont know how to spell/pronounce scourge on the fly(mostly just copy from what people write/say).... Scott? Scout? Sour?
lol really? You can't just take 5 minutes and memorize it?
|
On March 05 2013 11:32 Appendix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 11:29 TheEmulator wrote:On March 05 2013 11:27 FinestHour wrote:
we all know eblade batrider and tube was why scourge won Say Dire, don't be a hipster "what the hell is a scourge rofl this is dota not w.e. MOBA wannabe game ur talking about(LoL)"
*ironic laughing*
(like regular laughing, only with ym eyes rolled up and I didn't find it funny)
I usually pronounce it like the bastard child of scott and george: sceorge = scourge
|
On March 05 2013 11:39 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 11:32 Appendix wrote:On March 05 2013 11:29 TheEmulator wrote:On March 05 2013 11:27 FinestHour wrote:
we all know eblade batrider and tube was why scourge won Say Dire, don't be a hipster "what the hell is a scourge rofl this is dota not w.e. MOBA wannabe game ur talking about(LoL)" *ironic laughing* (like regular laughing, only with ym eyes rolled up and I didn't find it funny) I usually pronounce it like the bastard child of scott and george: sceorge = scourge
You are worse than death. Literally nothing literally worse than literally this literally.
|
On March 05 2013 11:38 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2013 11:32 NB wrote:
until today i still dont know how to spell/pronounce scourge on the fly(mostly just copy from what people write/say).... Scott? Scout? Sour? lol really? You can't just take 5 minutes and memorize it?
My reading system is constructed by anagrams of the letters inside a word. If it doesnt has a unique patterns or letters inside, it often takes a lot of time for me to memorize and this is one of those case. Thank god dire is simple ^^
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
