EPTGames nowadays end at a time that I still consider mid game. Damn Icefraud making the game faster.
General Discussion - Page 2288
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
Games nowadays end at a time that I still consider mid game. Damn Icefraud making the game faster. | ||
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maru~
2345 Posts
On March 05 2013 08:50 crms wrote: using pub scenarios to support fatal bonds being 'completely sick'. Just use pro games where Warlock was actually picked, fatal bonds rarely, if ever, made any impactful difference. Is it a nice skill that can sometimes synergize greatly? Sure, is it a 'completely sick' skill? Nah. If that skill is 'completely sick' I wonder what a skill like gale, or the rock itself is, super mega sick? Fatal bonds is usually just a nuisance that's countered in lane by a tango or two. Using pub scenario? Are you saying it is not feasible to get off a decent Bond in a teamfight in competitive play? Because that's silly. Also, you underestimate the damage it deals in lane, but that's beside the point. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On March 05 2013 08:49 PrinceXizor wrote: this is literally what i consider a farming support. a character who is not intrinsically about dealing damage, that when played standard gets high farm priority and chooses to spend it on utility items for his team this meaning farm priority above offlaning. you would be playing necrolyte when doing the above, carry necrolyte would be like radiance aghs heart treads or something mean to deal damage. support necrolyte would be running him as a 4 or 5 position. Mek/Pipe/Arcane etc are signature support items but that doesnt make Necro a po4/5 support when he has them because those items make Necro a monster, you can get heart/radiance if you liked after you snowballed, everything is situational. Ward on the other hand is supposed to be bought by everyone in the team whenever they have that amount of gold to spare. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
this is amazing @_@ | ||
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Gheizen64
Italy2077 Posts
On March 05 2013 08:52 Firebolt145 wrote: To me 'carry necro' or 'carry CM' or 'carry X' whatever just means they get more farm priority. It doesn't mean they suddenly go for MKB/Daedalus/Butterfly or whatever, it just means they get more gold and more items. That's just me though, I don't know what other people use. Yeah carry CM isn't Daedalus CM, it's BKB-Blink-Agha or some other shit, and it just mean you're getting so many kills that you're getting decent farm too. Support is just a term used to define heroes that usually play position 5 and sometimes 4, while carry are almost always only the 1. The problem arise from other categories, like Ganker, Pusher, Initiators etc... there are so many of them that people prefer to rely on a simpler a more clear 1-5 definition where the only fixed roles are the 5 as an hard support and the 1 as a farm carry. Then there's the issue of farming gold vs farming EXP, and the fact that some heroes can change position over the course of a game (like Zeus usually has low farm priority after laning phase while he's played as a mid and will carry you into midgame, but will get enough gold from kills to get an agha and a force staff and sometimes a refresher). A farming support doesn't make sense tho', support imply you leave farm for the others and buy wards/smokes/dusts. A support that can farm is another thing completely and fall back in the "we're winning by far so i'm getting farm too" category. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:00 BurningSera wrote: Mek/Pipe/Arcane etc are signature support items but that doesnt make Necro a po4/5 support when he has them because those items make Necro a monster, you can get heart/radiance if you liked after you snowballed, everything is situational. Ward on the other hand is supposed to be bought by everyone in the team whenever they have that amount of gold to spare. hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. | ||
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maru~
2345 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:07 PrinceXizor wrote: hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. We got it, but repeating it over and over won't make your definitions correct unfortunately. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:11 maru~ wrote: We got it, but repeating it over and over won't make your definitions correct unfortunately. and saying i'm wrong doesn't make me wrong either. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:07 PrinceXizor wrote: hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. What you are saying is that in your own definition that can happen. Stop saying it can happen to the most common definition, a 1st position support makes literally no sense by the definitions most people go by, as you can see from the comments in this thread. And carry necro/krob/lesh without DPS items are very commonly used. You can call them whathever you want, but realize that this is not the way the vast majority of players use those definitions, and don't try to impose you own definition to other people. | ||
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maru~
2345 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:12 PrinceXizor wrote: and saying i'm wrong doesn't make me wrong either. Use the terms however you want, just don't be surprised when you'll be having the same "discussion" every single time you do. In case you haven't noticed, pretty much everyone here disagrees with your definitions. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
also never noticed all the swords sticking out of Roshan | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:17 hooahah wrote: holy fuck, dat alchemist wallpaper also never noticed all the swords sticking out of Roshan Yeah it's pretty Cute. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:07 PrinceXizor wrote: hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. Nobody mentioned semi carry or initiator and you completely forgot to name a position jungler and roamer and one counterpusher. Heroes can fulfill more than one role(except maybe Bloodseeker, that guy can only chase half dead people really good). A Windrunner would be, by very definition a semi carry. She can do respectable damage with her ult. She is also a potent ganker. And she can be used exclusively for her spells while buying Mek and Wards, making her a possible support. 3-in-1 Windrunner is insanely versatile. Also what do you call the 1 if you don't pick a traditional carry? Happens from time to time, where teams aim for early pushing or constant ganking to batter the other team into submission. Is the 1 still a carry in that circumstance? Nope I didn't continue a pointless argument | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On March 05 2013 09:29 Mataza wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 05 2013 09:07 PrinceXizor wrote: hes... a pos 1 support. thats kind of the whole point of what i'm saying. Position and hero type are different categories it's like two different axis. you can play 4 or 5 position as support or as carry, obviously a 4th pos carry is terrrible because carrying requires far more items than a 4 or 5 position would get. but a heroes role or purpose in a team is or should be the same regardless of how much farm you prioritize them. the hangup is you guys equate carry to 1 semi carry to 2 initiator to 3 support to 4 5. where i am saying you can have a 4th or 5th position initiator, a 1 or 2 position support ect. Nobody mentioned semi carry or initiator and you completely forgot to name a position jungler and roamer and one counterpusher. Heroes can fulfill more than one role(except maybe Bloodseeker, that guy can only chase half dead people really good). A Windrunner would be, by very definition a semi carry. She can do respectable damage with her ult. She is also a potent ganker. And she can be used exclusively for her spells while buying Mek and Wards, making her a possible support. 3-in-1 Windrunner is insanely versatile. Also what do you call the 1 if you don't pick a traditional carry? Happens from time to time, where teams aim for early pushing or constant ganking to batter the other team into submission. Is the 1 still a carry in that circumstance? Nope I didn't continue a pointless argument + Show Spoiler + That'd be a team without a carry. talking about stuff like the early game comp DD used vs Liquid game 1 recently right? | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
Semantics, who cares. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
Heh there's only a few roles in the game for me Offlane, Mid, Semi-Carry, Hard Carry, Support (yes i classify mid & offlane heroes separately) There's only 5 farming positions, but 1 2 3 can change during the game at different stages. Only 4 & 5 usually dont get to change much. On a side note. Refresher Magnataur is frustratingly hard to deal with. Dat RP. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On March 05 2013 10:24 Nevuk wrote: Isn't fatal bonds bugged because it doesn't prioritize heroes correctly or something like that? Sort of. Fatal Bonds uses the hardcoded FirstOfGroup() function in Warcraft 3 to select targets, which uses order of unit creation as one of the (but not the only) criteria for ordering units. Since Heroes naturally are created before creeps, they will often be prioritized, but the exact behavior isn't quite known because there's no way to read the FirstOfGroup() function from Warcraft 3. Technically speaking its a "bug" not to replicate the Warcraft 3 FirstOfGroup unit selection order, but since we can't actually do that, programming full hero priority isn't correct either. Prioritizing heroes isn't more correct than full random target selection because neither are the original behavior. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On March 05 2013 10:30 TheYango wrote: Sort of. Fatal Bonds uses the hardcoded FirstOfGroup() function in Warcraft 3 to select targets, which uses order of unit creation as one of the (but not the only) criteria for ordering units. Since Heroes naturally are created before creeps, they will often be prioritized, but the exact behavior isn't quite known because there's no way to read the FirstOfGroup() function fro Warcraft 3. Technically speaking its a "bug" not to replicate the Warcraft 3 FirstOfGroup unit selection order, but since we can't actually do that, programming full hero priority isn't correct either. Prioritizing heroes isn't more correct than full random target selection because neither are the original behavior. Yeah, I just remember some people arguing that if fatal bonds behavior prioritized heroes then warlock would be even more viable (as he clearly already is). | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On March 05 2013 10:30 TheYango wrote: Sort of. Fatal Bonds uses the hardcoded FirstOfGroup() function in Warcraft 3 to select targets, which uses order of unit creation as one of the (but not the only) criteria for ordering units. Since Heroes naturally are created before creeps, they will often be prioritized, but the exact behavior isn't quite known because there's no way to read the FirstOfGroup() function from Warcraft 3. Technically speaking its a "bug" not to replicate the Warcraft 3 FirstOfGroup unit selection order, but since we can't actually do that, programming full hero priority isn't correct either. Prioritizing heroes isn't more correct than full random target selection because neither are the original behavior. Do you work for valve? No seriously, I have no idea. | ||
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