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On February 07 2013 08:13 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 08:11 Numy wrote:
You stop him from getting another sticky stack so he can't dive you as easily The silence doesn't last long enough for that. Sticky napalm stays on for 8 seconds at all levels, last word doesn't even silence for 4 until silencer is level 4 (it goes 3/4/5/6 silence).
Against a bat you don't stick around if he has potential to get stack -> dive on you. You have longer range than him and the silence so all I'm saying is it isn't as straight forward as level 2 dead. It's a 3 second cooldown on sticky too. I guess if you mess up early blocks so creep wave is pushing then you'll be screwed but if not I think you can live.
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United States47024 Posts
Honestly, only weaker players should actually die to the level 2 dive, regardless of hero. It's a matter of how many lasthits you have to give up to drop stacks.
Fun fact: quite a few Chinese pros believe that Shadowfiend goes even or better against Batrider.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
edit: updated courier pictures at bottom of page.
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On February 07 2013 08:17 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, only weaker players should actually die to the level 2 dive, regardless of hero. It's a matter of how many lasthits you have to give up to drop stacks.
Fun fact: quite a few Chinese pros believe that Shadowfiend goes even or better against Batrider.
That seems pretty sensible given that running at shadowfiend is incredibly dangerous
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rofl, I need TPL dragon thing.
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On February 07 2013 08:20 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 08:17 TheYango wrote:
Honestly, only weaker players should actually die to the level 2 dive, regardless of hero. It's a matter of how many lasthits you have to give up to drop stacks.
Fun fact: quite a few Chinese pros believe that Shadowfiend goes even or better against Batrider. That seems pretty sensible given that running at shadowfiend is incredibly dangerous
Yea don't know why you say that like people think SF is super bad vs bat. SF has amazing wave clear and is super long range so he can almost always get last hits. Throw in Radiant side and you can win or go even vs basically anyone without gangs.
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United States47024 Posts
I say it like that because SF's stats make him the stereotypical hero that you in theory *could* dive at level 2 (no disables, low base HP, no damage at level 2 with no Necromastery stacks and rank 1 Raze). But a smart SF won't die at 2 and get to the point where he wins the lane.
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That makes sense then. Honestly in mid you should only really die early if you yourself are going for an early kill and get outplayed or you get some meta smoke ganged. The majority of the time you can just play it safe and draw the lane until you see an opening. I mean you can always go for the hyperaggression risky play but acting like that is the only way to play I think is wrong. Maybe I'm just a cautious guy but playing it safe and not contesting when you could die seems like a better play than contesting in a situation where you can be killed. I'd rather take the risk when you have a far better chance of a good favorable outcome.
With that being said playing outside of your comfort zone in pubs is really good too. Teaches you limits far better than never taking the risk.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Well, Batrider was THE sf counter for the midlane back in the day. I still don't know what you do about bat as an sf. Hitting a raze on him is impossible with the non existent turn rate, you have bad stats and can't afford to trade hits with even a couple napalm stacks on you. What's the reason the Chinese pros think sf has the edge?
Also, the TPL courier looks really good.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
That picture I got is apparently not the finished SL one, the finalized textures look much much better. They're both pretty sweet.
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I remember a game where Yamateh fed like 1:13 or something vs some bat, long long time ago in dota1...fun times. And Yamateh was a super good SF back then(i think it was even before yaphets)
also this is an awesome video by 2009 bat vs SF mid,+ Show Spoiler +
i wish i understood chinese :[(subs suck~D)
I find it quite interesting that 2009 mentions you should prioritize stats over stick(as a starting item), it makes sense but it's still a weird choice when going vs bat.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 07 2013 08:30 cecek wrote:
Well, Batrider was THE sf counter for the midlane back in the day. I still don't know what you do about bat as an sf. Hitting a raze on him is impossible with the non existent turn rate, you have bad stats and can't afford to trade hits with even a couple napalm stacks on you. What's the reason the Chinese pros think sf has the edge?
Also, the TPL courier looks really good.
Bat has no way to actually harass because he has 375 autoattack range, Firefly is point-blank range, and Napalm doesn't do damage. As such the heroes that can do better against Bat are heroes that can harass and put damage on him at long range. Your goal isn't to kill Bat, but if you get him low enough that he can't risk diving you, then he loses a lot of his control in the lane. If SF gets to 5 or 7 and Bat eats 2-3 Razes, his HP starts to get to the point where he can't necessarily risk a dive.
The only thing he can do is threaten kill attempts, but as long as SF doesn't get too behind from dying and makes sure to get XP, SF eventually just gets to the point where Bat can't do anything about him because he can't dive without risking being counter-killed once SF is level 5 or 7.
In pubs its iffier though, because if Bat gets a Haste at 2 or 4 minutes and SF doesn't see it with a ward, SF's just dead.
Also, hitting Raze is only impossible if you already have a Napalm stack on you. If you just dropped stacks, you can Raze him when he comes up to re-stack Napalm the first time.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzk2NzcwNDk2.html - Xiao8 got challenged to back up his words when he said SF beats Bat 1v1 on Play With God.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On February 07 2013 08:50 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 08:30 cecek wrote:
Well, Batrider was THE sf counter for the midlane back in the day. I still don't know what you do about bat as an sf. Hitting a raze on him is impossible with the non existent turn rate, you have bad stats and can't afford to trade hits with even a couple napalm stacks on you. What's the reason the Chinese pros think sf has the edge?
Also, the TPL courier looks really good. Bat has no way to actually harass because he has 375 autoattack range, Firefly is point-blank range, and Napalm doesn't do damage. As such the heroes that can do better against Bat are heroes that can harass and put damage on him at long range. Your goal isn't to kill Bat, but if you get him low enough that he can't risk diving you, then he loses a lot of his control in the lane. If SF gets to 5 or 7 and Bat eats 2-3 Razes, his HP starts to get to the point where he can't necessarily risk a dive. The only thing he can do is threaten kill attempts, but as long as SF doesn't get too behind from dying and makes sure to get XP, SF eventually just gets to the point where Bat can't do anything about him because he can't dive without risking being counter-killed once SF is level 5 or 7. In pubs its iffier though, because if Bat gets a Haste at 2 or 4 minutes and SF doesn't see it with a ward, SF's just dead. Also, hitting Raze is only impossible if you already have a Napalm stack on you. If you just dropped stacks, you can Raze him when he comes up to re-stack Napalm the first time. http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzk2NzcwNDk2.html - Xiao8 got challenged to back up his words when he said SF beats Bat 1v1 on Play With God.
I dunno man... Batrider gets the faster bottle in the game by quite a few seconds without any doubt. And I would guess that as soon as the bat gets even just 2 napalm stacks on the shadowfiend, he will just sit himself on top of his highround and force him to go out of xp range to take off the stacks, unless he just dies. Getting rune control shouldn't be a problem too until the shadowfiend has level 3 razes. Bat should be able to kill the creeps faster with napalm stacks that early on.
Also, what's in the video? Youku doesn't work for me.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:13 cecek wrote:
I dunno man... Batrider gets the faster bottle in the game by quite a few seconds without any doubt. And I would guess that as soon as the bat gets even just 2 napalm stacks on the shadowfiend, he will just sit himself on top of his highround and force him to go out of xp range to take off the stacks, unless he just dies. Getting rune control shouldn't be a problem too until the shadowfiend has level 3 razes. Bat should be able to kill the creeps faster with napalm stacks that early on.
Also, what's in the video? Youku doesn't work for me.
Bat can't dive past creeps. He needs the creep wave to get to tower to dive you.
If you run past creeps to keep him off, then SF can fight you. You're not so strong that you can tank his creeps like that.
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On February 07 2013 08:41 Andr3 wrote:I remember a game where Yamateh fed like 1:13 or something vs some bat, long long time ago in dota1...fun times. And Yamateh was a super good SF back then(i think it was even before yaphets) also this is an awesome video by 2009 bat vs SF mid, + Show Spoiler +i wish i understood chinese :[(subs suck~D) I find it quite interesting that 2009 mentions you should prioritize stats over stick(as a starting item), it makes sense but it's still a weird choice when going vs bat.
This is the game. http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/36793
Roccat.Trust against Nirvana.MY. It wasn't before Yaphets, but Yamateh was still pretty decent. He got crushed pretty good by LB though.
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bat isn't unbeatable mid, it's just that you can't really stop him from farming and he poops all over teams with ulti and a blink
also he wrecks melee heroes, but a lot of mids do
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- Courier: Fixed courier not responding to deliver orders after having received a hold or stop order.
So happy... This was a huge peeve of mine as soon as I found out it was the stop command doing it, I have an OCD about using the stop command -_- ... I end up running the courier around and then hiring stop, then one final tiny move command
- Fixed direct unit target spells having 24 less effective range.
- Dropped, non-sharable items can no longer be destroyed by teammates.
No more QQ, yay
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Apologies for second post in a row (probably) but I'm on my phone. Will 'League' players who get access to that Leagues game's get the courier aswell? Could think of it as free advertising if they use that courier within that league. Also I think it would be cool if instead of the dark ticket on your dota profile people who are competing within that league got a gold one or something to show off
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
I don't think they get the courier. Although I do think it would be a good idea if leagues asked teams to use it unless they have something special. I feel that the advertising for the tickets in Dota is pretty weak. Even though we know that the defense has sold at least 8,700 (amount of the couriers on public profiles) at $10. They still don't advertise it very well. Like have an advert up on the stream between matches and shit, maybe even a video ad. I mean this stuff can make some serious money, just by doing those two things they'd probably increase sales by (pulling numbers out of my ass) 20%.
Anyway, here are the new ticket couriers.
The Premier League:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/j2Rk82F.gif)
StarLadder:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qsJGAja.gif)
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oh they're both awesome 
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EPT
