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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On February 07 2013 02:55 Kipsate wrote:
To be fair to EE
SingSing already has a sizeable fanbase from before, he has build it up due to his stream antics. However now he is getting both his fans plus people interested in scrims(which is hard to get by for some people)
CIS players always get high numbers, this is just CIS people giving love to CIS people(funn1k, dread, pgg all get 2k while dendi can get over 10k).Merlini is a legend, everyone knows him, thus he has a sizeable fanbase. He is one of the older and most respected players out there.
EG is a controversial team that everyone knows, they will get numbers. Demon also has some stream antics that can be entertaining to some.
NoTail has a sizeable fan base from HoN where he gets a lot of people from.
Oh and Chuan is,well, Chuan.
Also, a small thing that might play a role is that EE plays the 5th. they are not often that much in the spotlight and may obtain less attention then the other members while being very important.
I don't think Merlini's numbers are what they are because of his legacy. He just works really hard on his stream. He does everything right. He has a high quality video, webcam, good gameplay, streams often and consistently, talks to chat often, makes viewer games, has a nice overlay, good voice, teaches people, likable personality. There just aren't streamers that do all that right.
EE does most of this right and I personally enjoy his stream a lot, I think you can a learn a ton from that "always try hard" attitude. However, I don't think his personality is so appealing to many people as Merlini's, for example. And he doesn't stream nearly as consistently as Merlini (not his fault, he has to scrim and stuff), doesn't have a webcam, doesn't explain stuff to viewers, etc. Add all this up and you see where the viewer difference is coming from.
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On February 07 2013 02:41 5-s wrote:
All of this I could've told EE before he ever tried to go pro (oh, and I did in some respects on previous threads, but people were like don't be a dream killer). The only people who probably makes over 10k in NA are some of the EG players, and the popular streamers. If EE cared more about the financials of dota, he'd work on becoming a better streamer, since Merlini is probably making more without a team than EE is with a very good one.
idk if u actually listened to the video but he said he didn't actually care about the money (typical engineering student line of "im gonna be making 50k straight out of college ;;;; ) and was just stating facts and how the scene is working right now
that said im not surprised if people thought it came off as whiny but then again people are really fucking stupid
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On February 07 2013 03:02 PassiveAce wrote:
anyone who thinks $200k is enough to live on from the age of 20something till death is living in a fantasy world lol. even with great investment it will not last as long as you think, especially if you have to take care of more people then yourself.
You do realize that the average annual income in the ukraine is something along the lines of 2000 usd FOR A COLLEGE GRADUATE ?
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On February 07 2013 02:58 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:54 cecek wrote:On February 07 2013 02:41 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
You can't just pack up and move to some other country. You also have to consider travel expenses when you're moving. You can't just move to the place with the cheapest cost of living. It's going to cost you more to travel from Ukraine to US than it is to travel from Sweden for the US. It is likely still favorable, but if you're going to spend all the money you save from cost of living on additional travel expenses then why bother moving at all? Moving to a poorer country is not an issue whatsoever. And if we're talking about USA to Ukraine travel expenses, you can get a one way air ticket for under $800. (that's what I found on googl now, anyway) You would literally save that much money in 2 months. No I'm talking about when you want to go to a LAN tournament. If you're living in Ukraine you're gonna have to fly there and back. I'm not gonna google flight costs because that isn't the point. There are other opportunity costs to living in a cheap country to consider than just saying go live in X because the cost of living is cheap. Travel expenses are just one of the many. I'm sure you could find a favorable situation, but it has to be favorable enough that it is worth moving.
Since we're talking UA vs Sweden, wouldn't you rather live in Ukraine for starladders, than in Ukraine for Dreamhack? There's one Dreamhack winter, and 3 Starladders a year.
That's not the point, regardless. There will be more and more LAN events all across Europe and NA (hopefully) and travel expenses will be more or less the same for any country you live in.
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On February 07 2013 03:05 Klonere wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:41 5-s wrote:
All of this I could've told EE before he ever tried to go pro (oh, and I did in some respects on previous threads, but people were like don't be a dream killer). The only people who probably makes over 10k in NA are some of the EG players, and the popular streamers. If EE cared more about the financials of dota, he'd work on becoming a better streamer, since Merlini is probably making more without a team than EE is with a very good one. (typical engineering student line of "im gonna be making 50k straight out of college ;;;; )
I actually laughed pretty hard at this.
I think the way EE talks comes off as being "whiny" - he's obviously an arrogant person (pretty sure he won't even deny it), but his tone of voice / mannerisms just give the impression of whining. To me, he was just trying to give clarity on the scene - there is a lack of perspective in the scene atm, and I think this was a nice discussion behind it.
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On February 07 2013 02:54 Dattish wrote:
Not set for life, but considering average yearly salary in Ukraine is around 33k USD per year they're fine in the long run.
33k$ average wat O_O,that's definitely not true lol
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On February 07 2013 03:05 cecek wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:55 Kipsate wrote:
To be fair to EE
SingSing already has a sizeable fanbase from before, he has build it up due to his stream antics. However now he is getting both his fans plus people interested in scrims(which is hard to get by for some people)
CIS players always get high numbers, this is just CIS people giving love to CIS people(funn1k, dread, pgg all get 2k while dendi can get over 10k).Merlini is a legend, everyone knows him, thus he has a sizeable fanbase. He is one of the older and most respected players out there.
EG is a controversial team that everyone knows, they will get numbers. Demon also has some stream antics that can be entertaining to some.
NoTail has a sizeable fan base from HoN where he gets a lot of people from.
Oh and Chuan is,well, Chuan.
Also, a small thing that might play a role is that EE plays the 5th. they are not often that much in the spotlight and may obtain less attention then the other members while being very important. I don't think Merlini's numbers are what they are because of his legacy. He just works really hard on his stream. He does everything right. He has a high quality video, webcam, good gameplay, streams often and consistently, talks to chat often, makes viewer games, has a nice overlay, good voice, teaches people, likable personality. There just aren't streamers that do all that right. EE does most of this right and I personally enjoy his stream a lot, I think you can a learn a ton from that "always try hard" attitude. However, I don't think his personality is so appealing to many people as Merlini's, for example. And he doesn't stream nearly as consistently as Merlini (not his fault, he has to scrim and stuff), doesn't have a webcam, doesn't explain stuff to viewers, etc. Add all this up and you see where the viewer difference is coming from.
Would absolutely agree with this re: Merlini. It's a slick, well presented, well played stream (not by accident).
EE's voice is the biggest turn off for me. Although I respect his skill and passion quite a bit, his voice is the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard to me.
If you're going into "pro gaming" for money, I would call you a fool.
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On February 07 2013 03:08 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:02 PassiveAce wrote:
anyone who thinks $200k is enough to live on from the age of 20something till death is living in a fantasy world lol. even with great investment it will not last as long as you think, especially if you have to take care of more people then yourself. You do realize that the average annual income in the ukraine is something along the lines of 2000 usd FOR A COLLEGE GRADUATE ?
taxes mortgage payments wife and children will eat that shit up anyway. not to mention bills and the ten zillion miscellaneous payments that are necessary to survive.
O yeah, and, of course, inflation. lol.
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On February 07 2013 03:12 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:05 cecek wrote:On February 07 2013 02:55 Kipsate wrote:
To be fair to EE
SingSing already has a sizeable fanbase from before, he has build it up due to his stream antics. However now he is getting both his fans plus people interested in scrims(which is hard to get by for some people)
CIS players always get high numbers, this is just CIS people giving love to CIS people(funn1k, dread, pgg all get 2k while dendi can get over 10k).Merlini is a legend, everyone knows him, thus he has a sizeable fanbase. He is one of the older and most respected players out there.
EG is a controversial team that everyone knows, they will get numbers. Demon also has some stream antics that can be entertaining to some.
NoTail has a sizeable fan base from HoN where he gets a lot of people from.
Oh and Chuan is,well, Chuan.
Also, a small thing that might play a role is that EE plays the 5th. they are not often that much in the spotlight and may obtain less attention then the other members while being very important. I don't think Merlini's numbers are what they are because of his legacy. He just works really hard on his stream. He does everything right. He has a high quality video, webcam, good gameplay, streams often and consistently, talks to chat often, makes viewer games, has a nice overlay, good voice, teaches people, likable personality. There just aren't streamers that do all that right. EE does most of this right and I personally enjoy his stream a lot, I think you can a learn a ton from that "always try hard" attitude. However, I don't think his personality is so appealing to many people as Merlini's, for example. And he doesn't stream nearly as consistently as Merlini (not his fault, he has to scrim and stuff), doesn't have a webcam, doesn't explain stuff to viewers, etc. Add all this up and you see where the viewer difference is coming from. Would absolutely agree with this re: Merlini. It's a slick, well presented, well played stream (not by accident). EE's voice is the biggest turn off for me. Although I respect his skill and passion quite a bit, his voice is the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard to me. If you're going into "pro gaming" for money, I would call you a fool.
I don't think the point is necessarily about the fact that players are foolish for wanting money - but that if there isn't money in this scene to at least scrape by, the dota2 scene won't be sustainable. Only a certain portion of people will be able to make it by with < 10k earnings, and when most people are earning considerably less than that, i'm not sure how the scene will survive in the long run.
On February 07 2013 03:15 PassiveAce wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:08 gaymon wrote:On February 07 2013 03:02 PassiveAce wrote:
anyone who thinks $200k is enough to live on from the age of 20something till death is living in a fantasy world lol. even with great investment it will not last as long as you think, especially if you have to take care of more people then yourself. You do realize that the average annual income in the ukraine is something along the lines of 2000 usd FOR A COLLEGE GRADUATE ? taxes mortgage payments wife and children will eat that shit up anyway. not to mention bills and the ten zillion miscellaneous payments that are necessary to survive. O yeah, and, of course, inflation. lol.
Wife and children? You do know we are talking about progaming, right?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I know that Merlini stream is of high quality(wtf +1200p btw) and he has imrpoved himself greatly to do so aswell but he will have a large edge on anyone starting to stream due to his legacy.
AUI2K is someone I would say made a good name for himself, AUI2k has quite a nice viewer count.
I'm not saying EE can't improve, i'm saying that other people have an edge that he doesn't have.
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fucking eran you're a fucking low level ditcher
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On February 07 2013 03:16 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:12 IPA wrote:On February 07 2013 03:05 cecek wrote:On February 07 2013 02:55 Kipsate wrote:
To be fair to EE
SingSing already has a sizeable fanbase from before, he has build it up due to his stream antics. However now he is getting both his fans plus people interested in scrims(which is hard to get by for some people)
CIS players always get high numbers, this is just CIS people giving love to CIS people(funn1k, dread, pgg all get 2k while dendi can get over 10k).Merlini is a legend, everyone knows him, thus he has a sizeable fanbase. He is one of the older and most respected players out there.
EG is a controversial team that everyone knows, they will get numbers. Demon also has some stream antics that can be entertaining to some.
NoTail has a sizeable fan base from HoN where he gets a lot of people from.
Oh and Chuan is,well, Chuan.
Also, a small thing that might play a role is that EE plays the 5th. they are not often that much in the spotlight and may obtain less attention then the other members while being very important. I don't think Merlini's numbers are what they are because of his legacy. He just works really hard on his stream. He does everything right. He has a high quality video, webcam, good gameplay, streams often and consistently, talks to chat often, makes viewer games, has a nice overlay, good voice, teaches people, likable personality. There just aren't streamers that do all that right. EE does most of this right and I personally enjoy his stream a lot, I think you can a learn a ton from that "always try hard" attitude. However, I don't think his personality is so appealing to many people as Merlini's, for example. And he doesn't stream nearly as consistently as Merlini (not his fault, he has to scrim and stuff), doesn't have a webcam, doesn't explain stuff to viewers, etc. Add all this up and you see where the viewer difference is coming from. Would absolutely agree with this re: Merlini. It's a slick, well presented, well played stream (not by accident). EE's voice is the biggest turn off for me. Although I respect his skill and passion quite a bit, his voice is the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard to me. If you're going into "pro gaming" for money, I would call you a fool. I don't think the point is necessarily about the fact that players are foolish for wanting money - but that if there isn't money in this scene to at least scrape by, the dota2 scene won't be sustainable. Only a certain portion of people will be able to make it by with < 10k earnings, and when most people are earning considerably less than that, i'm not sure how the scene will survive in the long run. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:15 PassiveAce wrote:On February 07 2013 03:08 gaymon wrote:On February 07 2013 03:02 PassiveAce wrote:
anyone who thinks $200k is enough to live on from the age of 20something till death is living in a fantasy world lol. even with great investment it will not last as long as you think, especially if you have to take care of more people then yourself. You do realize that the average annual income in the ukraine is something along the lines of 2000 usd FOR A COLLEGE GRADUATE ? taxes mortgage payments wife and children will eat that shit up anyway. not to mention bills and the ten zillion miscellaneous payments that are necessary to survive. O yeah, and, of course, inflation. lol. Wife and children? You do know we are talking about progaming, right?
I guess replace "Wife and Children" with "Pizza and Hookers."
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On February 07 2013 03:16 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:12 IPA wrote:On February 07 2013 03:05 cecek wrote:On February 07 2013 02:55 Kipsate wrote:
To be fair to EE
SingSing already has a sizeable fanbase from before, he has build it up due to his stream antics. However now he is getting both his fans plus people interested in scrims(which is hard to get by for some people)
CIS players always get high numbers, this is just CIS people giving love to CIS people(funn1k, dread, pgg all get 2k while dendi can get over 10k).Merlini is a legend, everyone knows him, thus he has a sizeable fanbase. He is one of the older and most respected players out there.
EG is a controversial team that everyone knows, they will get numbers. Demon also has some stream antics that can be entertaining to some.
NoTail has a sizeable fan base from HoN where he gets a lot of people from.
Oh and Chuan is,well, Chuan.
Also, a small thing that might play a role is that EE plays the 5th. they are not often that much in the spotlight and may obtain less attention then the other members while being very important. I don't think Merlini's numbers are what they are because of his legacy. He just works really hard on his stream. He does everything right. He has a high quality video, webcam, good gameplay, streams often and consistently, talks to chat often, makes viewer games, has a nice overlay, good voice, teaches people, likable personality. There just aren't streamers that do all that right. EE does most of this right and I personally enjoy his stream a lot, I think you can a learn a ton from that "always try hard" attitude. However, I don't think his personality is so appealing to many people as Merlini's, for example. And he doesn't stream nearly as consistently as Merlini (not his fault, he has to scrim and stuff), doesn't have a webcam, doesn't explain stuff to viewers, etc. Add all this up and you see where the viewer difference is coming from. Would absolutely agree with this re: Merlini. It's a slick, well presented, well played stream (not by accident). EE's voice is the biggest turn off for me. Although I respect his skill and passion quite a bit, his voice is the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard to me. If you're going into "pro gaming" for money, I would call you a fool. I don't think the point is necessarily about the fact that players are foolish for wanting money - but that if there isn't money in this scene to at least scrape by, the dota2 scene won't be sustainable. Only a certain portion of people will be able to make it by with < 10k earnings, and when most people are earning considerably less than that, i'm not sure how the scene will survive in the long run. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:15 PassiveAce wrote:On February 07 2013 03:08 gaymon wrote:On February 07 2013 03:02 PassiveAce wrote:
anyone who thinks $200k is enough to live on from the age of 20something till death is living in a fantasy world lol. even with great investment it will not last as long as you think, especially if you have to take care of more people then yourself. You do realize that the average annual income in the ukraine is something along the lines of 2000 usd FOR A COLLEGE GRADUATE ? taxes mortgage payments wife and children will eat that shit up anyway. not to mention bills and the ten zillion miscellaneous payments that are necessary to survive. O yeah, and, of course, inflation. lol. Wife and children? You do know we are talking about progaming, right?
The scene would survive, why wouldn't it? Just on a smaller scale. To be honest, expecting anything more than 5 teams in the west to make DotA a full time job is VERY optimistic.
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On February 07 2013 03:20 Erasme wrote:
fucking eran you're a fucking low level ditcher
Easiest ditch of my life
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Don't forget that Valve is doing their best to add peripheral income sources to team's gabe said himself he'd like to see if they can add methods for dota players to have as many income sources that they can, this included like team based couriers, skins, wards, pennants, replay packs, at one point valve spoke of buy in lessons from pros, like valve pre-records a lesson with a pro and you can spend money in the client to have access to it. They don't want to BE the income source like riot is to LoL players, they just want to let the fans help pay the way
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On the point of Riot giving salaries to teams
Would I want it?Probably, it is great to have teams gain such a support(although it does force them to stick together a bit too much maybe).
However I do not feel like Valve will want to do that, they will want the community to take care of the teams(with the couriers, with the pennants etc), sponsors etc. I don't think thats a very bad thing either(its more healthy in the sense that it is not all Valve their money).
I don't see it happening as that is not Valve their way imo.
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riot subsidizes their entire pro scene essentially. valve already kinda does with TI but i dont really want it to become standard for a developer to have to pay pro-players in order to have a healthy scene, a very dangerous practice imo :-/
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most sports are not sustainable. how many professionals participare in the olympic games? and keep in mind that traditional sports are often heavily supported with public funds or that there are ways to sustain yourself without getting the money from sponsors. i.e. in germany a lot of athletes are "sport soldiers". this means that they can focus on their sport while getting payed by the government.
well these sports still exist and they are doing just fine with competitions and lots of newcomers every year.
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On February 07 2013 03:31 hfglgg wrote:
most sports are not sustainable. how many professionals participare in the olympic games? and keep in mind that traditional sports are often heavily supported with public funds or that there are ways to sustain yourself without getting the money from sponsors. i.e. in germany a lot of athletes are "sport soldiers". this means that they can focus on their sport while getting payed by the government.
well these sports still exist and they are doing just fine with competitions and lots of newcomers every year.
I guess the analogy would be that Riot is to the government or the NFL, and the proplayer is the athlete. As of right now, we are organized on a team basis (like...Uh baseball maybe?) where each individual team is self funded for the most part, but the players are also self funded / not really being paid (per se) by the team they are playing for. It works in sports, because of the wide audiences, the ticket prices (and concessions or whatever), and the advertising you can sell. As of now, we don't really have that in our scene, and to some extent its difficult to grow these things naturally unless some big investor decides to come into the scene and establish it.
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I wonder what riot's response would be to a team that wanted to sell, say, a CJ Entus Teemo skin and split the profits 50/50.
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EPT
