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On January 31 2013 06:05 Kipsate wrote:
I'm not a fan of the 2/2/3/3 ban system though, I liked 3/3/2/2 more.
I 100% agree. Instead of having a game where we had the same bans every game, we are stuck with essentially have 1-3 of the "overpowered" heroes in every single game we play. Fortunately, its not too bad, but I dont see batrider, Dark seer, Nyx, Wisp*, or Magnus going away any time soon (though, China has already favored Magnus less in recent nerfs, and teams aren't picking undying [though banning him a lot] lately), and lately KoTL is a top ban (LD / PL getting some bans lately too). It just feels more stagnant by forcing one or two of these heroes in every game. Oh well though, maybe I'm overemphasizing this.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On January 31 2013 05:51 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 05:49 Firebolt145 wrote:On January 31 2013 05:47 uNiGNoRe wrote:
GG Firebolt145. Not easy to not win with Batrider, Undying and pro SF. GG, was definitely the most competent team I've had in a while ^_^ Hey hey hey, wait a minute here, what about when you play with me and the staff guys  lol jk.
I meant while solo queueing ^_^
I like the 2/2/3/3 more tbh.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 31 2013 05:48 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 05:32 BurningSera wrote:On January 31 2013 05:28 nojok wrote:
I wonder why they don't balance heroes more often. For exemple batrider is permabanned or picked, just slightly nerf the slow of sticky napalm let's see what it gives. Or even more obivous, nyx is boring, it's fun to fight him but you face him in half the pub games & he's banned/picked material in pro game.
Also on side note, I think all drow pickers are now troll pickers as drow is barely picked those days compared to pretroll patch. because IF never do the balance job like blizzard. He always give the patch some time to see how will people play out with it etc. I am actually surprised by the frequent buff/nerfs since ti2. A lot of heroes are never picked & some are picked/banned all games. I don't care if pros don't do shiny stuff because they know exactly what is possible or not. I'd prefer to see a larger heroe pool in pro games.
This has been discussed at length before, and I've made the point repeatedly that it's hard to distinguish actual imbalance from trends/tendencies/flavors of the month.
If you had a theoretically "perfectly balanced" hero pool, then the best teams would play according to their own playstyle--but middle-tier teams would copy those teams simply by nature of wanting to emulate the success of the best teams, not because the heroes they're playing are OP. So even in a very balanced version, you'd see certain heroes driven into must-pick status and others be useless by nature of the desire to emulate success.
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I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance).
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I also feel that 2-3 ban pattern will end in a more fluid meta, with more strategies being used and less stale time where the meta stagnates because banning X Y and Z allows Meta A to seem far superior.
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On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance).
I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately.
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On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately.
there will always be universally popular heroes due to the need to copy people who are successful so forcing teams to deal with some of them lets the meta shift around instead of stagnate on having these 6 heroes banned and working with the rest
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On January 31 2013 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately. there will always be universally popular heroes due to the need to copy people who are successful so forcing teams to deal with some of them lets the meta shift around instead of stagnate on having these 6 heroes banned and working with the rest
I mean, that's obviously true. I guess I'm saying more that instead of not seeing a group of 6 heroes, we are forced to 95% of the time guarantee to see 1-2 of those 6 heroes every fucking game. I suppose there would be heroes that would take their stead if there were 6 bans, but those heroes are also picked most games with two bans.
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On January 31 2013 06:37 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately. there will always be universally popular heroes due to the need to copy people who are successful so forcing teams to deal with some of them lets the meta shift around instead of stagnate on having these 6 heroes banned and working with the rest I mean, that's obviously true. I guess I'm saying more that instead of not seeing a group of 6 heroes, we are forced to 95% of the time guarantee to see 1-2 of those 6 heroes every fucking game. I suppose there would be heroes that would take their stead if there were 6 bans, but those heroes are also picked most games with two bans.
but then again. seeing 1-2 of them every game gives teams an incentive to actually think outside the box to counter them, since they control which heroes are used. which allows for more shifts in a meta faster. think about before, when you'd get the same 2-3 variable position heroes used all the time in the 3-2 system and it never changed until the next version changed it for you.
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On January 31 2013 06:41 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:37 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately. there will always be universally popular heroes due to the need to copy people who are successful so forcing teams to deal with some of them lets the meta shift around instead of stagnate on having these 6 heroes banned and working with the rest I mean, that's obviously true. I guess I'm saying more that instead of not seeing a group of 6 heroes, we are forced to 95% of the time guarantee to see 1-2 of those 6 heroes every fucking game. I suppose there would be heroes that would take their stead if there were 6 bans, but those heroes are also picked most games with two bans. but then again. seeing 1-2 of them every game gives teams an incentive to actually think outside the box to counter them, since they control which heroes are used. which allows for more shifts in a meta faster. think about before, when you'd get the same 2-3 variable position heroes used all the time in the 3-2 system and it never changed until the next version changed it for you.
I mean, theoretically I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the group of 6-8 heroes hasn't really changed much in the past 3 months+. The only heroes that have really left that pool are Bounty Hunter and TA (though will be banned depending if they are playing against a dendi or not) (I guess you could argue Sven, but I really wouldn't bother since he was only in for roughly a month~). If these group of "ban-worthy heroes" was rotating more, it would make sense, but its primarily stayed the same.
I guess it comes down to preference, but I liked the old first round 3 ban system more.
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On January 31 2013 06:44 Comeh wrote:
I mean, theoretically I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the group of 6-8 heroes hasn't really changed much in the past 3 months+. The only heroes that have really left that pool are Bounty Hunter and TA (though will be banned depending if they are playing against a dendi or not) (I guess you could argue Sven, but I really wouldn't bother since he was only in for roughly a month~). If these group of "ban-worthy heroes" was rotating more, it would make sense, but its primarily stayed the same.
I guess it comes down to preference, but I liked the old first round 3 ban system more.
thats only true if you ignore china though. we've seen 3 distinct metas since the ban change. The west, ESPECIALLY europe are incredibly slow in changing what they do
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On January 31 2013 06:44 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:41 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 31 2013 06:37 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately. there will always be universally popular heroes due to the need to copy people who are successful so forcing teams to deal with some of them lets the meta shift around instead of stagnate on having these 6 heroes banned and working with the rest I mean, that's obviously true. I guess I'm saying more that instead of not seeing a group of 6 heroes, we are forced to 95% of the time guarantee to see 1-2 of those 6 heroes every fucking game. I suppose there would be heroes that would take their stead if there were 6 bans, but those heroes are also picked most games with two bans. but then again. seeing 1-2 of them every game gives teams an incentive to actually think outside the box to counter them, since they control which heroes are used. which allows for more shifts in a meta faster. think about before, when you'd get the same 2-3 variable position heroes used all the time in the 3-2 system and it never changed until the next version changed it for you. I mean, theoretically I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the group of 6-8 heroes hasn't really changed much in the past 3 months+. The only heroes that have really left that pool are Bounty Hunter and TA (though will be banned depending if they are playing against a dendi or not) (I guess you could argue Sven, but I really wouldn't bother since he was only in for roughly a month~). If these group of "ban-worthy heroes" was rotating more, it would make sense, but its primarily stayed the same. I guess it comes down to preference, but I liked the old first round 3 ban system more.
TA also received a very reasonable nerf.
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On January 31 2013 06:45 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:44 Comeh wrote:
I mean, theoretically I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the group of 6-8 heroes hasn't really changed much in the past 3 months+. The only heroes that have really left that pool are Bounty Hunter and TA (though will be banned depending if they are playing against a dendi or not) (I guess you could argue Sven, but I really wouldn't bother since he was only in for roughly a month~). If these group of "ban-worthy heroes" was rotating more, it would make sense, but its primarily stayed the same.
I guess it comes down to preference, but I liked the old first round 3 ban system more. thats only true if you ignore china though. we've seen 3 distinct metas since the ban change. The west, ESPECIALLY europe are incredibly slow in changing what they do
This is more or less true, but China approaches the game much differently, and they react nigh-immidiately to a new trend (IE AM dominating G-League). I would have more to say about China, but its been roughly 2 eons since a progame was played over there and I've started to forget what its like watching them play :[ .
On January 31 2013 06:45 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:44 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:41 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 31 2013 06:37 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:35 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately. there will always be universally popular heroes due to the need to copy people who are successful so forcing teams to deal with some of them lets the meta shift around instead of stagnate on having these 6 heroes banned and working with the rest I mean, that's obviously true. I guess I'm saying more that instead of not seeing a group of 6 heroes, we are forced to 95% of the time guarantee to see 1-2 of those 6 heroes every fucking game. I suppose there would be heroes that would take their stead if there were 6 bans, but those heroes are also picked most games with two bans. but then again. seeing 1-2 of them every game gives teams an incentive to actually think outside the box to counter them, since they control which heroes are used. which allows for more shifts in a meta faster. think about before, when you'd get the same 2-3 variable position heroes used all the time in the 3-2 system and it never changed until the next version changed it for you. I mean, theoretically I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, the group of 6-8 heroes hasn't really changed much in the past 3 months+. The only heroes that have really left that pool are Bounty Hunter and TA (though will be banned depending if they are playing against a dendi or not) (I guess you could argue Sven, but I really wouldn't bother since he was only in for roughly a month~). If these group of "ban-worthy heroes" was rotating more, it would make sense, but its primarily stayed the same. I guess it comes down to preference, but I liked the old first round 3 ban system more. TA also received a very reasonable nerf.
Good point. Was sick of her anyways :[
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On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately.
They're frequently banned but not the same way as Naga/Lycan (being like <10 games in TI2 where they weren't banned, and being banned/picked in EVERY game). No one knew how to deal with either until Na'vi's counter to siren and Lycan just got hit with the nerf bat.
Bat/Nyx are versatile heroes who can both do a large variety of roles that give very little away by picking them early. Bat jungle/mid/trilane, nyx mid or trilane support. In g-league teams were banning TA over batrider vs lgd.int for a while (something to do with G's mid TA).
KotL has less to do with the hero as it does overall strategy of the team - no one is going to pick Brood vs kotl (and PL is unlikely as well), KotL is just amazing at countering pushes even at level 2.
edit - also BH track -armor was nerfed, Bat was nerfed as well (2.7 str gain was silly)
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United States47024 Posts
On January 31 2013 06:48 Comeh wrote:
This is more or less true, but China approaches the game much differently, and they react nigh-immidiately to a new trend (IE AM dominating G-League). I would have more to say about China, but its been roughly 2 eons since a progame was played over there and I've started to forget what its like watching them play :[ .
Many Western trends come FROM adopting Chinese picking styles. So it's entirely within reason to see Western shifts in playstyle slow down when there are no broadcast games being played in China.
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On January 31 2013 06:12 PrinceXizor wrote:
3/3/2/2 allowed more "OP" bans so often the current popular characters got banned out as well as a targeted ban maybe if you were first pick. the secondary ban phase were just used to ban the heroes not yet picked up, like banning supports or hard carries.
2/2/3/3 allows more prepared strategies, since there are only 2 bans that the enemy can use to disrupt your planned strategy you can use your 3 picks to get the core of your strategy and then use the 3 bans to ban counters then pick up utility or universal roles last. this tended to be the opposite of 3/3/2/2 where you saw utility roles grabbed immediately or characters that can be played multiple ways.
I prefer 2/2/3/3 but i can see why kipsate preferred the other.
I don't think this is the case at all. This is only the case if the opponent knows your strategy beforehand and knows what you need to make that work. With 3/3/2/2 you could reveal a lot more early on instead of being forced to pick up generic strong heroes in other to hide your plan. Currently 2/2/3/3 means you have to pick up those generic heroes otherwise your opponent can just ban you out completely in 2nd phase.
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On January 31 2013 06:49 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately. They're frequently banned but not the same way as Naga/Lycan (being like <10 games in TI2 where they weren't banned, and being banned/picked in EVERY game). No one knew how to deal with either until Na'vi's counter to siren and Lycan just got hit with the nerf bat. Bat/Nyx are versatile heroes who can both do a large variety of roles that give very little away by picking them early. Bat jungle/mid/trilane, nyx mid or trilane support. In g-league teams were banning TA over batrider vs lgd.int for a while (something to do with G's mid TA). KotL has less to do with the hero as it does overall strategy of the team - no one is going to pick Brood vs kotl (and PL is unlikely as well), KotL is just amazing at countering pushes even at level 2. edit - also BH track -armor was nerfed, Bat was nerfed as well (2.7 str gain was silly)
I would argue it has quite a bit to do with Kotl indeed - his ability to supply you with infinite mana in a trilane vs trilane situation, as well as having one of the more dominating lane nukes is really powerful and almost guarantees the other team to feel really scared to run a trilane against you. His ability to farm up stacked jungle camps and get a reasonably timed mek for a hero that sits in the 4/5 slot is really valuable as well.
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On January 31 2013 06:55 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2013 06:49 Nevuk wrote:On January 31 2013 06:33 Comeh wrote:On January 31 2013 06:26 Nevuk wrote:
I prefer the 2 ban first system... it gets silly when a hero is at autoban status like old lycan or naga and teams just ban them. It's much preferable to see teams develop counters to the heroes/strategies employed to use them than it is to just never see those heroes.
There are minor balance things I personally think, but that's different from straight up thinking stuff is OP outside of pub games. PL agi growth makes him really annoying in pubs now.
It's a lot easier to make the case that a hero is underpowered than that they are overpowered (Spectre for instance). I would argue that some heroes (mainly batrider and Nyx atm, i'll be interested to see how kotl comes along) are pretty much autoban status. They almost never get through lately. They're frequently banned but not the same way as Naga/Lycan (being like <10 games in TI2 where they weren't banned, and being banned/picked in EVERY game). No one knew how to deal with either until Na'vi's counter to siren and Lycan just got hit with the nerf bat. Bat/Nyx are versatile heroes who can both do a large variety of roles that give very little away by picking them early. Bat jungle/mid/trilane, nyx mid or trilane support. In g-league teams were banning TA over batrider vs lgd.int for a while (something to do with G's mid TA). KotL has less to do with the hero as it does overall strategy of the team - no one is going to pick Brood vs kotl (and PL is unlikely as well), KotL is just amazing at countering pushes even at level 2. edit - also BH track -armor was nerfed, Bat was nerfed as well (2.7 str gain was silly) I would argue it has quite a bit to do with Kotl indeed - his ability to supply you with infinite mana in a trilane vs trilane situation, as well as having one of the more dominating lane nukes is really powerful and almost guarantees the other team to feel really scared to run a trilane against you. His ability to farm up stacked jungle camps and get a reasonably timed mek for a hero that sits in the 4/5 slot is really valuable as well.
Yeah, what I was trying to say was that if early pushing fell out of favor I don't think kotl would be banned or picked as often. He has a very strong nuke and solves the mana issues in trilanes but he's somewhat level dependent if you want blind/recall/mana leak (even at higher levels mana leak isn't exactly a real disable). If he farms in a static farming situation then it's just messing up lane equilibrium.
(The statement I made, that I don't think kotl is picked because of being kotl was um... recursively incorrect).
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NOTE: This update has reorganized the file layout of Dota 2 to speed up loading and for future localization support. This will result in a large update and may take a while to download.
GAMEPLAY
- Fixed how magic damage is amplified when there are multiple sources of bonuses.
- Death Prophet: Fixed Exorcism healing never resetting.
- Enigma: Tightened selection area of Eidolons to make picking individual units easier when they clump
- Gyrocopter: Fixed Call Down not slowing magic immune units.
- Spectre: Spectral Dagger now properly trails invisible units.
- Spectre: Fixed various properties of Haunt illusions being incorrect.
- Tiny: Fixed Craggy Exterior working on illusions of Tiny.
- Visage: Fixed Roshan decreasing Gravekeeper's Cloak charges.
- Visage: Fixed Gravekeeper's Cloak not restoring its layers independently of one another.
- Warlock: Fixed Flaming Fist damage not leveling properly, damaging magic immune units, and having incorrect chance to proc.
- Fixed a bug with Radiance kill credit and illusions.
- Fixed Roshan no longer casting Slam to slow and damage nearby units.
UI
- The Smooth Drag option now works for anyone that's spectating (whether through DotaTV or as a broadcaster).
- Reduced waiting time in hero picker during All Random to 10 seconds.
- Reworked how your personal hero performance is done on your profile page (provide feedback here http://dev.dota2.com/forumdisplay.php?f=431).
- Added preview for summoned items like the panda and watcher golem to store and backpack.
- Added the ability to filter out empty teams from the team list.
BOTS
- Fixed some incorrect timing calculations that were causing bots to miss some last hits.
- Fixed Practice vs Bots not properly selecting the nearest server.
- Fixed Death Prophet bot to know about the true range of Crypt Swarm.
- Fixed bots thrashing selling a situational item (dust, wards, TP scroll) to purchase another situational item.
WEBAPI
- Added Captain's Mode Picks and Bans.
- Added ability upgrade order and times to each player.
- Added inventory for additional units (Lone Druid's Spirit Bear).
- Added an API for getting match details in the order they were recorded.
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Eh, bug fix patch. Oh well, a lot of big bugs nailed out of there API progress is definitely cool, glad about that.
- Fixed Roshan no longer casting Slam to slow and damage nearby units.
I FUCKING KNEW IT
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EPT
