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On January 24 2013 01:51 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 01:49 SupLilSon wrote:On January 24 2013 01:45 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 24 2013 01:42 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:41 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 24 2013 01:38 superstartran wrote:On January 23 2013 18:06 r.Evo wrote:
tl;dr: You can't measure someones skill at playing a certain position based on their rating so any kind of "LOL LASTPICK = SUPPORT"-attitude is pretty damn stupid. You can accurately measure the effectiveness of their mid level play though. Mainly because everyone knows the easiest way to win pubs is to go mid and gank hard. If you are trying to hog mid over someone that has over 200 MMR over you, that plays the same position, plays better at the same heroes you do, you're an idiot and deserve to be flamed. Because at that point, now you're not playing for the team. and then what? don't play Mid for 200 MMR then when you are the high MMR go mid and fail because you are just as good as you were 200 MMR ago? yeah no thanks. What the fuck are you even talking about? If a 1700 MMR player who has worse stats, plays the same heroes, lower win rate, etc. is trying to hog mid over a guy at 1900 MMR who plays the same heroes, has ridiculous stats, great win percentage, etc. then you and I know who is the better player. It's not even close. Speak English please. If you are 1700 and want to play mid and the 1900 always takes your mid, you will never be playing mid, never improve at mid, and then as you gain MMR you won't be able to play mid at your MMR level, you will be stuck at your 1700 MMR mid skill. Read english please. There is 0 reason you should let someones MMR dictate the position you play. you should play what you want to improve at, if the 1900 mid player wants to play mid, he should have to ask his team same as the 1700 player, not be granted it because he's 1900. it's stupid and pointless to play a game where MMR dictates what you play. because once that becomes the norm, then the whole system falls in on itself. EDIT: also no one gives a shit about HoN leave the other bad games out of this thread, lrn2read OP. He's just mentioning HoN because it represents a pretty good comparison to what we might expect from the DBR. You don't seem to fully grasp how matchmaking works... If you are a 1700 level player you probably won't be matched with 1900s at all... and you won't always be the lowest rated player on your team, why do people keep assuming this? and you guys don't seem to grasp how Rating systems are supposed to work, they are supposed to judge your skill, not how well you get carried. IF you are being carried by someoen playing your role, you aren't improving at your role, so your rating is going up without your skill going up, which is only going to hurt you in the long run. rating =/= role and you guys have to get off your high horse and accept that.
What do you mean getting carried. How much DotA do you actually play? Generally, winning a game of DotA against an evenly matched group of opponents means that everyone on your team plays their roles well. Yes, there are heros designated "carry" but they don't simply 1v5 from the first minute. Allowing your carry to obtain the necessary farm is usually a team effort, requiring all 5 players to operate within their roles at a competent level. No one is on a high horse... I'm not even sure what you are talking about.
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On January 24 2013 01:52 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:47 DrPandaPhD wrote:If you're playing for fun why do you care that someone on your team that is good wants to take mid? You can have fun playing other heroes too. Wow you really are way too tryhard of a pubber. The game is played for fun. If a person enjoys playing mid more than other roles he should feel free to go mid and not be trashed by pubstars who think they are superior because they have a higher MMR. Winning = fun. Didn't know that losing constantly was how people played DotA. News to me. And it's not just about winning or losing, it's about how you're losing. If a completely inferior player goes mid, feeds 3 times, and gets completely stomped, the game goes so sour that it is basically impossible to have fun, because the opposing team is basically fountain feeding on you 20 minutes into the game if the opposing mid knew what he was doing. If a mid player gets a huge head start like that in a pub, the game is almost certainly over at that point, because a ganking hero that gets a big advantage early is basically impossible to stop in a pub. What? You can have fun without winning. SingSing probably being the most perfect example of someone who has fun no matter if he loses/wins
shoper..? dafuq u doin
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On January 24 2013 02:03 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:47 DrPandaPhD wrote:If you're playing for fun why do you care that someone on your team that is good wants to take mid? You can have fun playing other heroes too. Wow you really are way too tryhard of a pubber. The game is played for fun. If a person enjoys playing mid more than other roles he should feel free to go mid and not be trashed by pubstars who think they are superior because they have a higher MMR. Winning = fun. Didn't know that losing constantly was how people played DotA. News to me. And it's not just about winning or losing, it's about how you're losing. If a completely inferior player goes mid, feeds 3 times, and gets completely stomped, the game goes so sour that it is basically impossible to have fun, because the opposing team is basically fountain feeding on you 20 minutes into the game if the opposing mid knew what he was doing. If a mid player gets a huge head start like that in a pub, the game is almost certainly over at that point, because a ganking hero that gets a big advantage early is basically impossible to stop in a pub. On January 24 2013 01:48 Firebolt145 wrote:
This is precisely the mentality I don't want coming into Dota. 'I'm ranked the top of this team so I'm going to pick mid and carry us to win.' Get off your high horse. If the orange/brown guy wants to play mid, let him. He isn't going to learn any other way. Sometimes the rating system doesn't match-up properly and does wide range of matching up. It could have one 1800, 4 1700s for each time. It's still balanced; that actually happened quite often in HoN. What if one of the 1700s wants to take mid over the 1800 player, and then has to face 1v1 mid vs a clearly superior player that is mechanically much better than him? He's going to likely get crushed, lose his lane, feed hard, and then that's going to lead to everyone else getting fed on. It's going to devolve into a 20 minute stomp, with the opposing team likely fountain camping you for a good 10-15 minutes because they got such a huge lead on you early, mainly because the opposing mid got really fed because some hot shot 1700 thought he should go mid. We can say the same about side lane, feed the carry 3 times, let him freefarm. Besides you say he will feed mid, maybe he will win mid, how can you say based on MMR that it will be this result for sure? And seriously,3 kills early and then? If what you say is correct,the 1900 player of your team will be fed on side lane by their 1700 player. If you think the game relies only on mid, seriously what makes me crazy way more than a guy who feeds mid is a passive support in 2v1 lane, or afk junglers, those things hurt your team way more than 3 kills on their mid. But I doubt you can realise it if you think 3 early kills = game over. On top of that at least 30% of people random their heroe in pub, if it's not sd or rd, good luck predicting the results of the mu based on MMR.
Feeding an opposing mid is the worst thing you can do in your game since the mid hero is almost always a snowball type hero who has supreme ganking/map controlling abilities.
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Storytime:
A long time ago, in a game far away (HoN), I was just learning to play and was at 1200MMR (start at 1500). I was *Bad*. So, following the tried and true method of "Pick mid, Win game" to improve my play, I played ~75% mid heroes all the way to 1600MMR (actually a long-ass way, although 1600 is still bad). All of a sudden, my mid play wasn't carrying me any higher, although I still felt like I won most of my 1v1 lanes. So, I played less and less mid and more other roles. And my MMR continued to climb, much slower now.
Fast forward to a much more recent time, and a much nearer game (Dota 2), and I quite simply don't play mid anymore. Sure, sometimes I random pudge and go mid, but the vaaaast majority of the time I don't play mid. And the reason is pretty simple: I spent *years* playing with friends who went mid, and now I lose all my loseable mid matchups. Obviously some are truly unloseable (QoP vs X), and when I play with my ultra low tier friends I win mids, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense for me to go mid anymore. So I don't. The reason is, my mid play is somehow still at 1600MMR tier (ewwwwww).
It is true, IMO, that if you don't let people play roles, they won't get good at it. My friend who nearly beat demon's SF mid can't play support to save his life (relatively speaking). I don't know his relative DBR or mine, but although I know he is better than me I also know my support is better than his. And his mid is just miles above mine. I have another friend who is pretty bad, really, but fun to play with. He doesn't really get the game, sometimes, but his jungle is actually really refined and quick(no, he's not a league player). I'd take his jungle over mine any day.
I don't think that slotting bad players into support roles makes sense, any more than I think public DBR is a good idea. Let people who want to play mid play mid. My only issue now is that I don't WANT to play mid roles because I generally just end up losing, and so I'll never get better at it 
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pubs are for fun, if someone wants to use this rating to be obnoxious, ignore them or troll them.
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On January 24 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:
So if you're playing at a high MMR, and you want to win (because people naturally at that high MMR are competitive), you don't think that the player with the best stats, the best overall win percentage, the best MMR, etc. shouldn't take mid? This isn't like low tier shitcan pubs that other people are talking about; I'm talking about serious pubs where the opposing team is nerdy enough to throw wards/counter wards in the lane, smoke gank off the break to avoid wards, 3 man jungle/carry/support dive your offlaner, etc.
And yes, if the pub players are looking at their OWN team, and see that there isn't a massive discrepancy in skill, more often than not it's really not a big deal unless someone is a hardcore specialist and is going to pick that mid hero regardless of MMR or not. For the people who autolock/flame/etc. they are going to do that regardless of MMR.
I'm getting the feeling you don't want your MMR publicly shown because you're not as good as you thought you were at DotA 2. Two can play at that game.
okay kid, why don't you take a seat. I'll let you know how dota works. If you are playing a PUB game, regardless of the "skill level" of the Pub, you don't have a right to claim a damn thing, Clan TDA matches and Bnet games are roughly the same bro ur not better than anyone else in the pool no matter how many times you win. at least in no meaningful way. Serious pubs is a joke. get real and learn dota.
if pub players are looking at anything in a pub its to have fun only, if they cared to be competitive or felt they were good, they'd go out for an inhouse league where they would be rated and try to climb a ladder to be the best...around...where nothing is ever gonna keep them down. MMR being shown publically will destroy pubs, because of people liek you, who take them too seriously, you are doing the equivilent of going to a pickup game with people at your school and going full contact and demanding penalties. and pretty much ruining the fun of everyone, join a damn real league if you want that experience, don't force it on my for fun only pubs.
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On January 24 2013 02:06 Sn0_Man wrote:Storytime: A long time ago, in a game far away (HoN), I was just learning to play and was at 1200MMR (start at 1500). I was *Bad*. So, following the tried and true method of "Pick mid, Win game" to improve my play, I played ~75% mid heroes all the way to 1600MMR (actually a long-ass way, although 1600 is still bad). All of a sudden, my mid play wasn't carrying me any higher, although I still felt like I won most of my 1v1 lanes. So, I played less and less mid and more other roles. And my MMR continued to climb, much slower now. Fast forward to a much more recent time, and a much nearer game (Dota 2), and I quite simply don't play mid anymore. Sure, sometimes I random pudge and go mid, but the vaaaast majority of the time I don't play mid. And the reason is pretty simple: I spent *years* playing with friends who went mid, and now I lose all my loseable mid matchups. Obviously some are truly unloseable (QoP vs X), and when I play with my ultra low tier friends I win mids, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense for me to go mid anymore. So I don't. The reason is, my mid play is somehow still at 1600MMR tier (ewwwwww). It is true, IMO, that if you don't let people play roles, they won't get good at it. My friend who nearly beat demon's SF mid can't play support to save his life (relatively speaking). I don't know his relative DBR or mine, but although I know he is better than me I also know my support is better than his. And his mid is just miles above mine. I have another friend who is pretty bad, really, but fun to play with. He doesn't really get the game, sometimes, but his jungle is actually really refined and quick(no, he's not a league player). I'd take his jungle over mine any day. I don't think that slotting bad players into support roles makes sense, any more than I think public DBR is a good idea. Let people who want to play mid play mid. My only issue now is that I don't WANT to play mid roles because I generally just end up losing, and so I'll never get better at it
So how do you determine who gets mid then if everyone wants to play mid? Stats and MMR in general are a pretty good indicator of your past historical performance overall in public games, and if you have any semblance of playing to win, you should let your best player take mid.
On January 24 2013 02:08 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:
So if you're playing at a high MMR, and you want to win (because people naturally at that high MMR are competitive), you don't think that the player with the best stats, the best overall win percentage, the best MMR, etc. shouldn't take mid? This isn't like low tier shitcan pubs that other people are talking about; I'm talking about serious pubs where the opposing team is nerdy enough to throw wards/counter wards in the lane, smoke gank off the break to avoid wards, 3 man jungle/carry/support dive your offlaner, etc.
And yes, if the pub players are looking at their OWN team, and see that there isn't a massive discrepancy in skill, more often than not it's really not a big deal unless someone is a hardcore specialist and is going to pick that mid hero regardless of MMR or not. For the people who autolock/flame/etc. they are going to do that regardless of MMR.
I'm getting the feeling you don't want your MMR publicly shown because you're not as good as you thought you were at DotA 2. Two can play at that game. okay kid, why don't you take a seat. I'll let you know how dota works. If you are playing a PUB game, regardless of the "skill level" of the Pub, you don't have a right to claim a damn thing, Clan TDA matches and Bnet games are roughly the same bro ur not better than anyone else in the pool no matter how many times you win. at least in no meaningful way. Serious pubs is a joke. get real and learn dota. if pub players are looking at anything in a pub its to have fun only, if they cared to be competitive or felt they were good, they'd go out for an inhouse league where they would be rated and try to climb a ladder to be the best...around...where nothing is ever gonna keep them down. MMR being shown publically will destroy pubs, because of people liek you, who take them too seriously, you are doing the equivilent of going to a pickup game with people at your school and going full contact and demanding penalties. and pretty much ruining the fun of everyone, join a damn real league if you want that experience, don't force it on my for fun only pubs.
People who play for fun generally don't end up in the bracket I play in. So for the most part, I am only addressing people who are playing to win and like to play semi-competitively in pubs.
Right now in DotA 2 there are no IHLs that are good. The VH level bracket games (as in most of the shit that shows up on page 1) play very similar to what you would see in an IHL, so thinking that those people shouldn't play to win is hilarious.
Two, I guess EternalEnvy and AdmiralBulldog are all nerds then because they took pubs so serious right?
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On January 24 2013 02:06 Sn0_Man wrote:Storytime: A long time ago, in a game far away (HoN), I was just learning to play and was at 1200MMR (start at 1500). I was *Bad*. So, following the tried and true method of "Pick mid, Win game" to improve my play, I played ~75% mid heroes all the way to 1600MMR (actually a long-ass way, although 1600 is still bad). All of a sudden, my mid play wasn't carrying me any higher, although I still felt like I won most of my 1v1 lanes. So, I played less and less mid and more other roles. And my MMR continued to climb, much slower now. Fast forward to a much more recent time, and a much nearer game (Dota 2), and I quite simply don't play mid anymore. Sure, sometimes I random pudge and go mid, but the vaaaast majority of the time I don't play mid. And the reason is pretty simple: I spent *years* playing with friends who went mid, and now I lose all my loseable mid matchups. Obviously some are truly unloseable (QoP vs X), and when I play with my ultra low tier friends I win mids, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense for me to go mid anymore. So I don't. The reason is, my mid play is somehow still at 1600MMR tier (ewwwwww). It is true, IMO, that if you don't let people play roles, they won't get good at it. My friend who nearly beat demon's SF mid can't play support to save his life (relatively speaking). I don't know his relative DBR or mine, but although I know he is better than me I also know my support is better than his. And his mid is just miles above mine. I have another friend who is pretty bad, really, but fun to play with. He doesn't really get the game, sometimes, but his jungle is actually really refined and quick(no, he's not a league player). I'd take his jungle over mine any day. I don't think that slotting bad players into support roles makes sense, any more than I think public DBR is a good idea. Let people who want to play mid play mid. My only issue now is that I don't WANT to play mid roles because I generally just end up losing, and so I'll never get better at it
You aren't consistently going to be the lowest rated player on your team unless you are really really low ELO. It's not even like it's guaranteed that everyone wants to play mid or carry. It's 100% possible that the highest rated player on your team could be someone who prefers to play support.. Did anyone here actually play HoN or are you just using it because you have no other "evidence"?
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On January 24 2013 02:06 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 02:03 nojok wrote:On January 24 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:47 DrPandaPhD wrote:If you're playing for fun why do you care that someone on your team that is good wants to take mid? You can have fun playing other heroes too. Wow you really are way too tryhard of a pubber. The game is played for fun. If a person enjoys playing mid more than other roles he should feel free to go mid and not be trashed by pubstars who think they are superior because they have a higher MMR. Winning = fun. Didn't know that losing constantly was how people played DotA. News to me. And it's not just about winning or losing, it's about how you're losing. If a completely inferior player goes mid, feeds 3 times, and gets completely stomped, the game goes so sour that it is basically impossible to have fun, because the opposing team is basically fountain feeding on you 20 minutes into the game if the opposing mid knew what he was doing. If a mid player gets a huge head start like that in a pub, the game is almost certainly over at that point, because a ganking hero that gets a big advantage early is basically impossible to stop in a pub. On January 24 2013 01:48 Firebolt145 wrote:
This is precisely the mentality I don't want coming into Dota. 'I'm ranked the top of this team so I'm going to pick mid and carry us to win.' Get off your high horse. If the orange/brown guy wants to play mid, let him. He isn't going to learn any other way. Sometimes the rating system doesn't match-up properly and does wide range of matching up. It could have one 1800, 4 1700s for each time. It's still balanced; that actually happened quite often in HoN. What if one of the 1700s wants to take mid over the 1800 player, and then has to face 1v1 mid vs a clearly superior player that is mechanically much better than him? He's going to likely get crushed, lose his lane, feed hard, and then that's going to lead to everyone else getting fed on. It's going to devolve into a 20 minute stomp, with the opposing team likely fountain camping you for a good 10-15 minutes because they got such a huge lead on you early, mainly because the opposing mid got really fed because some hot shot 1700 thought he should go mid. We can say the same about side lane, feed the carry 3 times, let him freefarm. Besides you say he will feed mid, maybe he will win mid, how can you say based on MMR that it will be this result for sure? And seriously,3 kills early and then? If what you say is correct,the 1900 player of your team will be fed on side lane by their 1700 player. If you think the game relies only on mid, seriously what makes me crazy way more than a guy who feeds mid is a passive support in 2v1 lane, or afk junglers, those things hurt your team way more than 3 kills on their mid. But I doubt you can realise it if you think 3 early kills = game over. On top of that at least 30% of people random their heroe in pub, if it's not sd or rd, good luck predicting the results of the mu based on MMR. Feeding an opposing mid is the worst thing you can do in your game since the mid hero is almost always a snowball type hero who has supreme ganking/map controlling abilities.
And then, it's a pub, take it as challenge for you, everyone has already failed mid miserably. Besides one ward & your lane is almost secured.
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On January 24 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 01:58 Firebolt145 wrote:
superstartran, I get what you're saying regarding 'if we are desperate to win, we should stick our best player mid' since that is a great position for the player to dictate the game pace. But these are pubs, not fucking TI3 qualifiers. Pigeonholing roles based on MMR is a HORRIBLE way to do things. Do you really think pub players are going to look at the opponents and think 'oh, they only have a small MMR range, we'll let orange take mid if he wants.' Be real. So if you're playing at a high MMR, and you want to win (because people naturally at that high MMR are competitive), you don't think that the player with the best stats, the best overall win percentage, the best MMR, etc. shouldn't take mid? This isn't like low tier shitcan pubs that other people are talking about; I'm talking about serious pubs where the opposing team is nerdy enough to throw wards/counter wards in the lane, smoke gank off the break to avoid wards, 3 man jungle/carry/support dive your offlaner, etc. And yes, if the pub players are looking at their OWN team, and see that there isn't a massive discrepancy in skill, more often than not it's really not a big deal unless someone is a hardcore specialist and is going to pick that mid hero regardless of MMR or not. For the people who autolock/flame/etc. they are going to do that regardless of MMR. Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 01:58 ChrisXIV wrote:On January 24 2013 01:56 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:54 PrinceXizor wrote:On January 24 2013 01:53 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:51 Firebolt145 wrote:On January 24 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:47 DrPandaPhD wrote:If you're playing for fun why do you care that someone on your team that is good wants to take mid? You can have fun playing other heroes too. Wow you really are way too tryhard of a pubber. The game is played for fun. If a person enjoys playing mid more than other roles he should feel free to go mid and not be trashed by pubstars who think they are superior because they have a higher MMR. Winning = fun. Didn't know that losing constantly was how people played DotA. News to me. And it's not just about winning or losing, it's about how you're losing. If a completely inferior player goes mid, feeds 3 times, and gets completely stomped, the game goes so sour that it is basically impossible to have fun, because the opposing team is basically fountain feeding on you 20 minutes into the game if the opposing mid knew what he was doing. If a mid player gets a huge head start like that in a pub, the game is almost certainly over at that point, because a ganking hero that gets a big advantage early is basically impossible to stop in a pub. So in other words, you're of the opinion that highest rated should be pigeonholed into mid, lowest rated should always be support? That's the vibe I'm getting, and that's a terrible way to play the game. Oh and yes I have plenty of fun while losing. The highest rated player should go mid if the MMR range is vastly different in a group. The lowest rated player doesn't have to play support, but he certainly should not be taking the most important position over a clearly better player than him, especially when the higher rated player makes it known he wants to take mid to ensure that he gets enough farm/exp to make a meaningful impact in the game. wrong. this is pubs we are talking about. pubs don't matter. join an in house league. this is dota not lol or whatever game you play.  Saying I'm wrong because you lost the argument? Welcome to being bad at arguments. Not to wave my e-penis or anything, but you certainly sound like someone that isn't very good at the game if you don't think your best player should be taking high impact positions IF you want to win. I get the feeling you're one those who go "I'm mid you suck" and the laning phase begins with 2 people mid fighting for lasthits. I'm getting the feeling you don't want your MMR publicly shown because you're not as good as you thought you were at DotA 2. Two can play at that game.
There's a difference between being competitive in a competitive setting and a casual one. You see plenty of high skill players that troll when they pub. Demon who sells every inventory item for a rapier just to feed it to the enemy (aka Demon throws), or Singsing who gets MoM a lot. Does them not being serious in pubs suddenly make them less competitive players or not high skill? At the end of the day, Dota is just a game and unless you are playing in a tournament with prize/prestige at stake, people in pubs will treat is as such. If your only way to have fun is to win and stomp pubs get a 5 stack and instant pick drow/enigma/magnus/nyx every game rather than expect random people to have the same mentality as you. Alternative, you could go scrim and CM with picking and banning with likeminded people.
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On January 24 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:
I'm getting the feeling you don't want your MMR publicly shown because you're not as good as you thought you were at DotA 2. Two can play at that game.
I'm an OK carry, a mediocre mid and a horrible support. According to your system, where good overall MMR means getting the important roles, I'd never get to play the role I'm decent at, unless I get paired with players worse than me overall.
And again, I'm pretty sure you would flame the shit out of people with lower ranking than yours taking mid.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
While I understand this can be a contentious issue, let's try to be more civil here before I use my Jayce Hammer. Kthxbai~
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On January 24 2013 02:08 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 02:06 Sn0_Man wrote:Storytime: A long time ago, in a game far away (HoN), I was just learning to play and was at 1200MMR (start at 1500). I was *Bad*. So, following the tried and true method of "Pick mid, Win game" to improve my play, I played ~75% mid heroes all the way to 1600MMR (actually a long-ass way, although 1600 is still bad). All of a sudden, my mid play wasn't carrying me any higher, although I still felt like I won most of my 1v1 lanes. So, I played less and less mid and more other roles. And my MMR continued to climb, much slower now. Fast forward to a much more recent time, and a much nearer game (Dota 2), and I quite simply don't play mid anymore. Sure, sometimes I random pudge and go mid, but the vaaaast majority of the time I don't play mid. And the reason is pretty simple: I spent *years* playing with friends who went mid, and now I lose all my loseable mid matchups. Obviously some are truly unloseable (QoP vs X), and when I play with my ultra low tier friends I win mids, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense for me to go mid anymore. So I don't. The reason is, my mid play is somehow still at 1600MMR tier (ewwwwww). It is true, IMO, that if you don't let people play roles, they won't get good at it. My friend who nearly beat demon's SF mid can't play support to save his life (relatively speaking). I don't know his relative DBR or mine, but although I know he is better than me I also know my support is better than his. And his mid is just miles above mine. I have another friend who is pretty bad, really, but fun to play with. He doesn't really get the game, sometimes, but his jungle is actually really refined and quick(no, he's not a league player). I'd take his jungle over mine any day. I don't think that slotting bad players into support roles makes sense, any more than I think public DBR is a good idea. Let people who want to play mid play mid. My only issue now is that I don't WANT to play mid roles because I generally just end up losing, and so I'll never get better at it You aren't consistently going to be the lowest rated player on your team unless you are really really low ELO. It's not even like it's guaranteed that everyone wants to play mid or carry. It's 100% possible that the highest rated player on your team could be someone who prefers to play support.. Did anyone here actually play HoN or are you just using it because you have no other "evidence"?
Rated 2300 in progames when i standin for proleague mega diamond super pro here:
ALL GOOD PLAYERS PLAY MID SHUT UP SCRUB LOOK AT DENDI AND FERARRI COMPARED TO NOOB 1437 AND ARS ART LOL GET OWNED KID.
Yeah, that line of logic really is stupid. A lot of really good pros are support players, not just mid / carries.
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On January 24 2013 02:11 ChrisXIV wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:
I'm getting the feeling you don't want your MMR publicly shown because you're not as good as you thought you were at DotA 2. Two can play at that game. I'm an OK carry, a mediocre mid and a horrible support. According to your system, where good overall MMR means getting the important roles, I'd never get to play the role I'm decent at, unless I get paired with players worse than me overall. And again, I'm pretty sure you would flame the shit out of people with lower ranking than yours taking mid.
The system is not going to skew you where you are position 5 every single game. What do people not understand about this? By having a set order based on MMRs, you get to actually play every position more often than you normally would, because sometimes you would be forced to pick supports when you don't like to play supports, and sometimes you are forced to play mid when you don't like to play mid.
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On January 24 2013 02:08 superstartran wrote:
So how do you determine who gets mid then if everyone wants to play mid? Stats and MMR in general are a pretty good indicator of your past historical performance overall in public games, and if you have any semblance of playing to win, you should let your best player take mid.
Just saying, just because someone has a higher MMR doesn't automatically make them the bestest at any given role. Each player has different strengths, and players tend to pick in a way that supports their personal strengths, because hey, we all like to try to win
Some people are really good at mid, some people are really good supports, some people are good carries
Some people are only good at one or two carries, because they only really play those carries
These are all intangible factors, and they CANNOT be summed up in a number
MMR is useful to some extent, but it in no way provides a picture of a unique player, a set of 5 1700 ranked players might have a pretty massive variance in what each one's skillset may be.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On January 24 2013 02:08 superstartran wrote:
People who play for fun generally don't end up in the bracket I play in. So for the most part, I am only addressing people who are playing to win and like to play semi-competitively in pubs.
Right now in DotA 2 there are no IHLs that are good. The VH level bracket games (as in most of the shit that shows up on page 1) play very similar to what you would see in an IHL, so thinking that those people shouldn't play to win is hilarious.
So what bracket are you in?! I'm on page 1 from time to time, and I don't have this experience of a bracket where people never play for fun.
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On January 24 2013 02:05 Rynzser_r wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 01:52 DrPandaPhD wrote:On January 24 2013 01:49 superstartran wrote:On January 24 2013 01:47 DrPandaPhD wrote:If you're playing for fun why do you care that someone on your team that is good wants to take mid? You can have fun playing other heroes too. Wow you really are way too tryhard of a pubber. The game is played for fun. If a person enjoys playing mid more than other roles he should feel free to go mid and not be trashed by pubstars who think they are superior because they have a higher MMR. Winning = fun. Didn't know that losing constantly was how people played DotA. News to me. And it's not just about winning or losing, it's about how you're losing. If a completely inferior player goes mid, feeds 3 times, and gets completely stomped, the game goes so sour that it is basically impossible to have fun, because the opposing team is basically fountain feeding on you 20 minutes into the game if the opposing mid knew what he was doing. If a mid player gets a huge head start like that in a pub, the game is almost certainly over at that point, because a ganking hero that gets a big advantage early is basically impossible to stop in a pub. What? You can have fun without winning. SingSing probably being the most perfect example of someone who has fun no matter if he loses/wins shoper..? dafuq u doin
Talking about pubs rynz, if our serious dotabro scrimteam we never lose
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I'd say public DBR has already ruined the game even before it got out. That has to be somehting.
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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On January 24 2013 02:14 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 02:11 ChrisXIV wrote:On January 24 2013 02:02 superstartran wrote:
I'm getting the feeling you don't want your MMR publicly shown because you're not as good as you thought you were at DotA 2. Two can play at that game. I'm an OK carry, a mediocre mid and a horrible support. According to your system, where good overall MMR means getting the important roles, I'd never get to play the role I'm decent at, unless I get paired with players worse than me overall. And again, I'm pretty sure you would flame the shit out of people with lower ranking than yours taking mid. The system is not going to skew you where you are position 5 every single game. What do people not understand about this? By having a set order based on MMRs, you get to actually play every position more often than you normally would, because sometimes you would be forced to pick supports when you don't like to play supports, and sometimes you are forced to play mid when you don't like to play mid.
Yes, and what we're saying is that this is a stupid mentality to have. Being pigeonholed into a role because the system randomly MM'd you with a group putting you as lowest/highest rated is terrible.
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On January 24 2013 02:11 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2013 02:08 SupLilSon wrote:On January 24 2013 02:06 Sn0_Man wrote:Storytime: A long time ago, in a game far away (HoN), I was just learning to play and was at 1200MMR (start at 1500). I was *Bad*. So, following the tried and true method of "Pick mid, Win game" to improve my play, I played ~75% mid heroes all the way to 1600MMR (actually a long-ass way, although 1600 is still bad). All of a sudden, my mid play wasn't carrying me any higher, although I still felt like I won most of my 1v1 lanes. So, I played less and less mid and more other roles. And my MMR continued to climb, much slower now. Fast forward to a much more recent time, and a much nearer game (Dota 2), and I quite simply don't play mid anymore. Sure, sometimes I random pudge and go mid, but the vaaaast majority of the time I don't play mid. And the reason is pretty simple: I spent *years* playing with friends who went mid, and now I lose all my loseable mid matchups. Obviously some are truly unloseable (QoP vs X), and when I play with my ultra low tier friends I win mids, but otherwise it just doesn't make sense for me to go mid anymore. So I don't. The reason is, my mid play is somehow still at 1600MMR tier (ewwwwww). It is true, IMO, that if you don't let people play roles, they won't get good at it. My friend who nearly beat demon's SF mid can't play support to save his life (relatively speaking). I don't know his relative DBR or mine, but although I know he is better than me I also know my support is better than his. And his mid is just miles above mine. I have another friend who is pretty bad, really, but fun to play with. He doesn't really get the game, sometimes, but his jungle is actually really refined and quick(no, he's not a league player). I'd take his jungle over mine any day. I don't think that slotting bad players into support roles makes sense, any more than I think public DBR is a good idea. Let people who want to play mid play mid. My only issue now is that I don't WANT to play mid roles because I generally just end up losing, and so I'll never get better at it You aren't consistently going to be the lowest rated player on your team unless you are really really low ELO. It's not even like it's guaranteed that everyone wants to play mid or carry. It's 100% possible that the highest rated player on your team could be someone who prefers to play support.. Did anyone here actually play HoN or are you just using it because you have no other "evidence"? Rated 2300 in progames when i standin for proleague mega diamond super pro here: ALL GOOD PLAYERS PLAY MID SHUT UP SCRUB LOOK AT DENDI AND FERARRI COMPARED TO NOOB 1437 AND ARS ART LOL GET OWNED KID. Yeah, that line of logic really is stupid. A lot of really good pros are support players, not just mid / carries.
I sure hope you posted this before moonbear asked for civility rofl.
However I quite agree. The point I'm making is that, even if I were the best player on my team every game, I'd rather have others take mid. And if it turned out that our "lowest rated" player took mid, would I care? No... although certain people on this forum sound like they would slit their wrists and pollute allchat with some really vile flame if this happened to them.
The point is, MY RATING DOESN'T REFLECT MY MID PLAY NECESSARILY please don't judge people's ability to mid/carry by their DBR.
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EPT
