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On January 23 2013 14:52 AkalineMess wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 13:49 tauon wrote:On January 23 2013 13:22 ViZe wrote:
Aren't you usually matched with people of similar mmrs anyway?
why would it matter if they can see yours if yours is like the same as theirs
unless pub people think the menial differences in numbers actually accurately represents skill differentials rather than the current win/loss streak
even lol people don't think like that though. worst player in lol usually is forced to play something only because he is last pick In HoN, you were told explicitly where you were ranked relative to each other. This can result in a few unpleasant games where one players refuses to let the weaker player go mid etc... Would you let your weakest player in your team go against the best player on the other team (blue/pink)? I dont care in 1600-1700 bracket because of smurfs and player are pretty inconsistent. But in 1900 bracket? Fuck that, brown/oj better pick support and be our ward bitches unless you have a fucking impressive winrate with high KDR and GPM.
This is wrong on so many levels. You are assuming all 1900 players are good in warding/support team. I hated HoN for a passion because of that.
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On January 23 2013 15:56 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 14:52 AkalineMess wrote:On January 23 2013 13:49 tauon wrote:On January 23 2013 13:22 ViZe wrote:
Aren't you usually matched with people of similar mmrs anyway?
why would it matter if they can see yours if yours is like the same as theirs
unless pub people think the menial differences in numbers actually accurately represents skill differentials rather than the current win/loss streak
even lol people don't think like that though. worst player in lol usually is forced to play something only because he is last pick In HoN, you were told explicitly where you were ranked relative to each other. This can result in a few unpleasant games where one players refuses to let the weaker player go mid etc... Would you let your weakest player in your team go against the best player on the other team (blue/pink)? I dont care in 1600-1700 bracket because of smurfs and player are pretty inconsistent. But in 1900 bracket? Fuck that, brown/oj better pick support and be our ward bitches unless you have a fucking impressive winrate with high KDR and GPM. This is wrong on so many levels. You are assuming all 1900 players are good in warding/support team. I hated HoN for a passion because of that.
I'm pretty sure almost all 1900s are better at support than 1700s.
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On January 23 2013 17:04 Cool Cat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 15:56 BurningSera wrote:On January 23 2013 14:52 AkalineMess wrote:On January 23 2013 13:49 tauon wrote:On January 23 2013 13:22 ViZe wrote:
Aren't you usually matched with people of similar mmrs anyway?
why would it matter if they can see yours if yours is like the same as theirs
unless pub people think the menial differences in numbers actually accurately represents skill differentials rather than the current win/loss streak
even lol people don't think like that though. worst player in lol usually is forced to play something only because he is last pick In HoN, you were told explicitly where you were ranked relative to each other. This can result in a few unpleasant games where one players refuses to let the weaker player go mid etc... Would you let your weakest player in your team go against the best player on the other team (blue/pink)? I dont care in 1600-1700 bracket because of smurfs and player are pretty inconsistent. But in 1900 bracket? Fuck that, brown/oj better pick support and be our ward bitches unless you have a fucking impressive winrate with high KDR and GPM. This is wrong on so many levels. You are assuming all 1900 players are good in warding/support team. I hated HoN for a passion because of that. I'm pretty sure almost all 1900s are better at support than 1700s.
I wish that is true because i wouldnt have left hon then.
Saving gold to buy mek (whatever name in hon) rather than buying vision for team in a disadvantaged game. 'Oh hey i got mek i did my support job and we lost = you guys failed mid/carry'. Classic 1900's supports.
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Where does the "support is the easiest role to play" come from in the first place? Real supporting (min 20 brown boots supporting if something goes bad) is almost unbearable in pubs, it requires you to trust the other members of your team to a huge degree. You must know they will do their job since you are reduced to poping 2-3 spells and they dying past early game unless you have a huge lead. You need perfect positioning to avoid that yet sometimes it is just not enough.
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I still enjoy playing support
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I've gotta echo BurningSera, even in supposedly "high level" games you get people all the time who have no clue how to support or simply refuse to selflessly buy wards because they "need itam". I think a lot of the problem stems from these players most likely exclusively assuming the role of mid or carry when playing with friends. Also it is very hard to find a streamer who plays support and it's admittedly much less exciting to watch. That said, I'm gonna check out Burnings guide so I don't become one of these guys ><
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On January 23 2013 17:11 akatama wrote:
Where does the "support is the easiest role to play" come from in the first place? Real supporting (min 20 brown boots supporting if something goes bad) is almost unbearable in pubs, it requires you to trust the other members of your team to a huge degree. You must know they will do their job since you are reduced to poping 2-3 spells and they dying past early game unless you have a huge lead. You need perfect positioning to avoid that yet sometimes it is just not enough.
Clearly simply putting wards down and buying team items is something every retard can do, lasthitting (#1) or not dieing (#3) requires much much more raw skill. Also supports have almost no gold so they can't fuck up as much with bad item choices. Rite? ;o
Personally, I find 1st/3rd/4th position are where I'm more okay with a "random person" (think queuing with 4 people) than 2nd or 5th. My direct translation for that into solo q scenarios is that I would want the strongest people on the team in terms of knowledge/mechanics on #2 and #5, but that's just me.
Obviously every role requires a different skillset to play it well, I just feel as if those two specifically are the most demanding overall.
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On January 23 2013 17:09 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 17:04 Cool Cat wrote:On January 23 2013 15:56 BurningSera wrote:On January 23 2013 14:52 AkalineMess wrote:On January 23 2013 13:49 tauon wrote:On January 23 2013 13:22 ViZe wrote:
Aren't you usually matched with people of similar mmrs anyway?
why would it matter if they can see yours if yours is like the same as theirs
unless pub people think the menial differences in numbers actually accurately represents skill differentials rather than the current win/loss streak
even lol people don't think like that though. worst player in lol usually is forced to play something only because he is last pick In HoN, you were told explicitly where you were ranked relative to each other. This can result in a few unpleasant games where one players refuses to let the weaker player go mid etc... Would you let your weakest player in your team go against the best player on the other team (blue/pink)? I dont care in 1600-1700 bracket because of smurfs and player are pretty inconsistent. But in 1900 bracket? Fuck that, brown/oj better pick support and be our ward bitches unless you have a fucking impressive winrate with high KDR and GPM. This is wrong on so many levels. You are assuming all 1900 players are good in warding/support team. I hated HoN for a passion because of that. I'm pretty sure almost all 1900s are better at support than 1700s. I wish that is true because i wouldnt have left hon then. Saving gold to buy mek (whatever name in hon) rather than buying vision for team in a disadvantaged game. 'Oh hey i got mek i did my support job and we lost = you guys failed mid/carry'. Classic 1900's supports.
Carrying a game as a superior support in pubs in terms of being able to impact a game enough to win comes down to a lot more than buying wards. I'd actually say that's the least important. I'd rather have a 1900 who knows how to roam the map, control the lane, find experience without taking it from the carry, and team fight over a 1700 who just buys wards and does much less in other categories. You don't get to high MMR just by always having a ward in your inventory and stacking creep camps for your carry.
I started out dota as mainly support, and it's only now I realize how shitty I was because I thought of supporting in a very limited way. "Just don't feed and buy wards" mentality is not enough to get you far. Whether you play support or hard carry, it's all about having the most impact on the game in the best way you can.
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On January 23 2013 17:26 SupLilSon wrote:
I've gotta echo BurningSera, even in supposedly "high level" games you get people all the time who have no clue how to support or simply refuse to selflessly buy wards because they "need itam". I think a lot of the problem stems from these players most likely exclusively assuming the role of mid or carry when playing with friends. Also it is very hard to find a streamer who plays support and it's admittedly much less exciting to watch. That said, I'm gonna check out Burnings guide so I don't become one of these guys ><
BurningSera wasn't talking about "high level" games, if you're talking about matchmaking brackets in dota 2. Assuming BurningSera is talking about post-compression MMR in hon, 1900 is essentially page 1-3 in dota 2 matchmaking. He's suggesting that page 50+ players (1700 MMR) are better than the page 1 player at support.
Also, part of the problem is that people don't take pub games seriously. So while a 1900 MMR player might refuse to buy wards, I'm confident that if he played support seriously, he would be better than the 1700 MMR player.
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I never claim that i am a good player/support whatever but when I play support I always do my best for the team which is pretty much the most important part of playing the role, you put your team ahead of everything, you are highly responsible for every death of your carry who get ganked (without setting up good vision, farming when you could have tped etc). And no i dont see that happening in all 1900 games.
Also, if you think that supporting is all about warding/stacking creep camp then I have no further comment. Maybe it is time to play some games where you only have one naked boots and 3 branches at 20mins.
And thats why my HoN mmr can never go up above 1800, I always play for the team and rather support because most people want to carry/mid or rather they only know how to play those carry heroes. No mmr system ever works for non-mid/carry player, 2009 said that and 820 said that (fyi Chinese has this special ladder system for dota1). How can you ever accurately rank individual skill in a team orientated game with just a number with 100+heroes in the pool.
edit: gonna say more on that 1900 in hon because it sounds like some uber pro tier games. I said all these because I have watched enough hon games back then and lets not talk about pubs, you see bad supports in pro games very often, please dont tell me that those 1900 games are better than the pro games.
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On January 23 2013 17:35 Cool Cat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 17:26 SupLilSon wrote:
I've gotta echo BurningSera, even in supposedly "high level" games you get people all the time who have no clue how to support or simply refuse to selflessly buy wards because they "need itam". I think a lot of the problem stems from these players most likely exclusively assuming the role of mid or carry when playing with friends. Also it is very hard to find a streamer who plays support and it's admittedly much less exciting to watch. That said, I'm gonna check out Burnings guide so I don't become one of these guys >< BurningSera wasn't talking about "high level" games, if you're talking about matchmaking brackets in dota 2. Assuming BurningSera is talking about post-compression MMR in hon, 1900 is essentially page 1-3 in dota 2 matchmaking. He's suggesting that page 50+ players (1700 MMR) are better than the page 1 player at support. Also, part of the problem is that people don't take pub games seriously. So while a 1900 MMR player might refuse to buy wards, I'm confident that if he played support seriously, he would be better than the 1700 MMR player.
lol I know what he's talking about, one of my friends peaked at 1950, sadly he's playing LoL now instead of carrying me in DotA. I don't agree with his statement that a 1700 could play better support than 1900, the difference of 200 MMR is fucking huge and doesn't occur without a massive discrepancy in skill. But I still feel that there were a lot of players who had shittons of room for improvement in the support category, either their attitude or simply how they approach the game.
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No, that isn't the reason why. You can definitely get above 1800 playing support. Even in LoL there are players who are well above 2k playing only support which has a much smaller impact on the game relative to dota/hon.
Seriously, watch someone's stream sometime where they end up playing support. Jeyo can be a good example even though he doesn't play support all the time. Watch how hard they can impact the early game, mid game, and even late game depending on what hero they play and completely snowball the game. This also has very little to do with giving their carries vision. Carrying as a pub support is much more about being aggressive and making things happen rather than defensive and "relying" on your carries.
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On January 23 2013 17:35 Cool Cat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 17:26 SupLilSon wrote:
I've gotta echo BurningSera, even in supposedly "high level" games you get people all the time who have no clue how to support or simply refuse to selflessly buy wards because they "need itam". I think a lot of the problem stems from these players most likely exclusively assuming the role of mid or carry when playing with friends. Also it is very hard to find a streamer who plays support and it's admittedly much less exciting to watch. That said, I'm gonna check out Burnings guide so I don't become one of these guys >< BurningSera wasn't talking about "high level" games, if you're talking about matchmaking brackets in dota 2. Assuming BurningSera is talking about post-compression MMR in hon, 1900 is essentially page 1-3 in dota 2 matchmaking. He's suggesting that page 50+ players (1700 MMR) are better than the page 1 player at support. Also, part of the problem is that people don't take pub games seriously. So while a 1900 MMR player might refuse to buy wards, I'm confident that if he played support seriously, he would be better than the 1700 MMR player.
Er, i am simply saying a 1700 player playing support not necessary has anything to do with a 1900 playing support, supporting is a completely different game than mid/carrying. While you are implying that 1900 player MUST BE better than a 1700 player supporting. This is not true at all because i have played with too many 1850+ people and they cant support shit (and that deserved my swear).
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On January 23 2013 17:56 Itsmedudeman wrote:
No, that isn't the reason why. You can definitely get above 1800 playing support. Even in LoL there are players who are well above 2k playing only support which has a much smaller impact on the game relative to dota/hon.
Seriously, watch someone's stream sometime where they end up playing support. Jeyo can be a good example even though he doesn't play support all the time. Watch how hard they can impact the early game, mid game, and even late game depending on what hero they play and completely snowball the game. This also has very little to do with giving their carries vision. Carrying as a pub support is much more about being aggressive and making things happen rather than defensive and "relying" on your carries.
You are talking this because you saw/heard something about someone did something. And I am speaking from my personal experience.
And nobody says that supporting is not about 'being aggressive and making things happen rather than defensive and "relying" on your carries', it is indeed another important aspect of it while your This also has very little to do with giving their carries vision clearly showed that you dont have that kind of understanding in the role yet.
Or let me put it clearer, imagine your support can 'being aggressive and making things happen rather than defensive and "relying" on your carries' while ensuring your carry farms safely with all the visions up, how would you feel?
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tl;dr: You can't measure someones skill at playing a certain position based on their rating so any kind of "LOL LASTPICK = SUPPORT"-attitude is pretty damn stupid.
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I can speak from personal experience because I thought in a similar fashion to you. I am a much better player now because I know that getting to a high rating as support is many things more than simply relying on your carries to farm and carry the game for you and that being your goal. All I'm saying is that warding consistently does not make you better at support than someone who doesn't.
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God damn those supports that never leave the lane for first 7 minutes -.-
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On January 23 2013 15:36 BurningSera wrote:
24k people out of 200k+ players voted. -_- ya, this voting is pretty meaningful.
<MathNazi> The meaningfulness ( does this word even exist?) of a poll only depend of the sample size, and not on the total population size. In this case 24K votes are pretty meaningful. This poll only has a 0.6% error margin.</MathNazi>
On January 23 2013 18:08 Qbek wrote:
God damn those supports that never leave the lane for first 7 minutes -.-
Or those support that leave you alone after 1min in a difficult lane -.-. Playing support also mean being able to adapt your playstyle depending on who you are face ( solo, duo or offensive trilane). Most have no idea how to do that.
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On January 23 2013 18:16 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 15:36 BurningSera wrote:
24k people out of 200k+ players voted. -_- ya, this voting is pretty meaningful.
<MathNazi> The meaningfulness ( does this word even exist?) of a poll only depend of the sample size, and not on the total population size. In this case 24K votes are pretty meaningful. This poll only has a 0.6% error margin.</MathNazi> Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 18:08 Qbek wrote:
God damn those supports that never leave the lane for first 7 minutes -.- Or those support that leave you alone after 1min in a difficult lane -.-. Playing support also mean being able to adapt your playstyle depending on who you are face ( solo, duo or offensive trilane). Most have no idea how to do that.
But there are way more than 200k people, also we can't assume that the 24k who voted are the same "demographic" than the total. I would assume the average dota player and the average dotabuff user are quite different. If you would create a poll on tl.net asking whether dota2 is better than lol. Dota2 will certainly win, but we are obviously biased as hell.
So I wouldn't value that poll high.
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That post confirms that he has no understanding of statistical sampling.
Considering that number of plays and rating level seems quite well represented, don't think anyone can actually argue much about the validity of the result.
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EPT
