EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 1527
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Lyter
United Kingdom2145 Posts
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:55 Lyter wrote: The way to stop playing with complete retards every game is simply to play well, sorry, but if you're still down there you're not a good player. That's actually the simplest way to say it but I have more insight regarding the 'mmr hell' lately because of one of my mate. So he has about 500games played and most of his games are in Normal and a (very) few of them in High. I was wondering how is that possible because the guy has this good mechanics and strategy sense (when to push/gank and slightly above basic knowledge of heroes/line up and maybe i should mention that his lanaya owns pretty hard too) so I was assuming he should be at least in High but it turned out that most of his games are in Normal. So after I queued with him for a few games I understand the reasons (and allow me to say it here again: 'fu valve please fix your mm'): 1) He has only one friend in his friend list and that's me so he never play as a stack to stomp (don't ask me why he never add anyone else). 2) He lacks of the first hand experience in playing many heroes. This is the huge because this makes sense out of his whole situation of 'mmr hell'. He knows what the hero does/how to kill the hero but he lacks of the understanding on the hero role/playstyle and item builds so when he was playing the hero he is the definitive 'noob' of that hero (not a complete noob but the rhythm of playing that hero is just bad just like whenever you learnt a new hero). So ya I think he is a very good case study of 'why do you stuck in mmr hell' and how using 'one visible mmr ranking to show one's skill level on all heroes' doesnt work in a dota-like game. I have to admit that I can only play very limited amount of solo mid hero at high level >_> And i think valve is using a very similar mmr system just like hon/sc2 but when you queue with a stack they just some extre mmr on top of your stack i guess lol | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On November 21 2012 07:16 Kipsate wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369089¤tpage=14#280 He didn't really get angry but he was slightly annoyed at the least. Also Drow Ranger+TA is next level fucking bullshit. If the guy who played Syllabear is somewhere, that was just a retarded combination. Well the most angry in this is me, seeing a dev post here, be right, and being called wrong by a whole bunch of people who were wrong themselves. The guy just came here with good intentions and was being bandwagon'ed on, not the most glorious TL moment imo. | ||
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Unleashing
Denmark14978 Posts
I feel that most games i get to go solo mid solo Q i win my lane pretty hard(With pretty hard i mean stomp) which is probably since my MMR is lower than it should be due to 30 or so win percentage with friends. | ||
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majava
Finland248 Posts
On November 21 2012 18:39 BurningSera wrote: That's actually the simplest way to say it but I have more insight regarding the 'mmr hell' lately because of one of my mate. So he has about 500games played and most of his games are in Normal and a (very) few of them in High. I was wondering how is that possible because the guy has this good mechanics and strategy sense (when to push/gank and slightly above basic knowledge of heroes/line up and maybe i should mention that his lanaya owns pretty hard too) so I was assuming he should be at least in High but it turned out that most of his games are in Normal. So after I queued with him for a few games I understand the reasons (and allow me to say it here again: 'fu valve please fix your mm'): 1) He has only one friend in his friend list and that's me so he never play as a stack to stomp (don't ask me why he never add anyone else). 2) He lacks of the first hand experience in playing many heroes. This is the huge because this makes sense out of his whole situation of 'mmr hell'. He knows what the hero does/how to kill the hero but he lacks of the understanding on the hero role/playstyle and item builds so when he was playing the hero he is the definitive 'noob' of that hero (not a complete noob but the rhythm of playing that hero is just bad just like whenever you learnt a new hero). So ya I think he is a very good case study of 'why do you stuck in mmr hell' and how using 'one visible mmr ranking to show one's skill level on all heroes' doesnt work in a dota-like game. I have to admit that I can only play very limited amount of solo mid hero at high level >_> And i think valve is using a very similar mmr system just like hon/sc2 but when you queue with a stack they just some extre mmr on top of your stack i guess lol There is no mmr hell. Its just in your head because you like to think of other reasons why you (or your friend) are stuck in a low queue. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On November 21 2012 19:35 majava wrote: There is no mmr hell. Its just in your head because you like to think of other reasons why you (or your friend) are stuck in a low queue. Honey, most of my games in v.high. And hey, what do you know, I was trying to be constructive and stated clearly he is a good case study (0 stack game from his 500games except 3/4 games with me) and did you not read that i was suggesting there is valid reason for him to stuck in 'mmr hell'. On November 21 2012 18:51 Testuser wrote: 500 games and not knowing the build for the different heroes sounds strange to me, but then again, what do I know Are you surprise though? 100+ heroes, we played these heroes for yearsssss but some new players got the game 6months ago. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:55 Lyter wrote: The way to stop playing with complete retards every game is simply to play well, sorry, but if you're still down there you're not a good player. Clearly so easy to carry the game on a support without a stack. Honestly at this point I'm thinking I should flat out give up on support. Like playing it but if your carries...can't...then you can't do anything about it. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On November 21 2012 20:10 Lightspeaker wrote: Clearly so easy to carry the game on a support without a stack. Honestly at this point I'm thinking I should flat out give up on support. Like playing it but if your carries...can't...then you can't do anything about it. If you cant make yourself felt in any role, then no, you dont deserve to win. Ward, gank, tell the morons where to go, make sure you are always doing something to inhibit the enemy carry's ability to farm. If you gave a pro a support and dropped him into a very high queue he would still win the majority of the games. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
But on an average if you're better than your team you should be able to carry enough games in the long run to get a "decent" MMR. I say decent, but personally from what I've seen there's very little difference between high/lower levels of very high. In the end it's all very random, sometimes you get 5-man carry teams. Other times you get people who think they're playing the qualifiers for TI3... | ||
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ReignSupreme.
Australia4123 Posts
On November 21 2012 20:14 Two_DoWn wrote: If you gave a pro a support and dropped him into a very high queue he would still win the majority of the games. Bolded the reasoning why... Drop a new-ish player into a support role (which perhaps he enjoys) solo Q normal and watch as even with warding, denying, even ganking, the entire game ends up going to hell. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On November 21 2012 20:18 ReignSupreme. wrote: Bolded the reasoning why... Drop a new-ish player into a support role (which perhaps he enjoys) solo Q normal and watch as even with warding, denying, even ganking, the entire game ends up going to hell. and what exactly would change if said new player played carry instead? right, he would be one of those carrys not worth supporting. it's stupid if a "new player" thinks he can carry the game himself, but even more stupid telling new players to pick carry when they don't know enough about the game to fullfil their role. | ||
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tauon
Australia1278 Posts
On November 21 2012 16:45 Dead9 wrote: u mean 100% of the time you're the best right hahaha So true | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
On November 21 2012 20:18 Andr3 wrote: @BurningSera, I kinda agree with you. One possible thing is that he's just extremely unlucky with the games he wins versus the games he loses. If you constantly lose to players you're supposed to win versus, then your MMR can be quite low while still maintaining a 50% wr. Goes both ways. But on an average if you're better than your team you should be able to carry enough games in the long run to get a "decent" MMR. I say decent, but personally from what I've seen there's very little difference between high/lower levels of very high. In the end it's all very random, sometimes you get 5-man carry teams. Other times you get people who think they're playing the qualifiers for TI3... that's what happened during my early games in dota2, i can play any hero with any retarded build and win (obviously team should not be feeding hardcore and 1/2 good players in team helps alot). But now unless the oppo randomed some bad line up otherwise the games would turn out exactly like you said 'playing for ti3', hard games all day and night. When i need a break now i go smurf >_> (Only PA/Void/Axe were played on that account rofl). | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 21 2012 20:14 Two_DoWn wrote: If you cant make yourself felt in any role, then no, you dont deserve to win. Ward, gank, tell the morons where to go, make sure you are always doing something to inhibit the enemy carry's ability to farm. Obviously an antimage with BF and Manta can be taken down by a warding Venge backed up by a Void who hasn't skilled Ulti, can't LH and has built half a battlefury as his first item. Thing is it ultimately comes down to numbers. At a certain point you're just dead. Nothing you do will be enough to fix the difference in power between your carry/carries and theirs. I'm always amused by how totally oblivious people are to this and just assume "well play your role properly and you'd win". Warding does nothing, because nobody except you apparently knows to watch the map, even when you point things out. Ganking helps a tiny bit, but beating down someone who has been getting freefarm with no backup for you is messy to say the least. Telling people where to go? Are you seriously suggesting people listen to someone telling them what to do the majority of the time? Inhibiting the opposing carry similarly helps, but when your carry doesn't know how to farm and doesn't know what items to get then its largely academic. You flat out cannot rely on your teammates to do anything. At all. Hell I've carried from solo mid on a support before now because both teams were that bad (lol Single Draft). Its an utter mess although very slowly getting a bit better, I've seen some people actually buying couriers without prompting, even very occassionally wards which is absolutely huge (even if they don't know what to do with them); but on the flipside...last night Venomancer taking all the farm in his lane, buying no support items and rushing for Shadow Blade. So yeah, great. If you gave a pro a support and dropped him into a very high queue he would still win the majority of the game ...of course he would. Its very high queue. A pro on a support making space for a carry in a very high queue means that he's supporting a reasonably competent carry who knows how to farm and knows not to rush midas or something. People in a very high queue are going to be competent enough to take advantage of such space; maybe not take advantage as much as a pro would but at least be able to make use of it. At the very least he wouldn't be supporting a Sven who thinks that a Wisp tethering to him makes him invulnerable enough to go charging into the middle of the opposition solo right past a tower (as one genius I supported apparently thought, NEVER play Wisp in pub if you value your sanity). | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
however over half of those are because you picked the wrong role. let's say your team has 4 other people (good assumption), half them are good at team fighting half of them are good at ganks, none of them are good at last hits. they pick 2 carries and 2 mid game heroes. the team fighters picked the mid game and the gankers picked carries. everyone is is their worst skillset. it's your job to pick a carry in that situation, if you can last hit. it's your job to try to know that ahead of time during picks and do that. It's also your job NOT to pick a farming carry like AM/PA/Alchemist, you need a carry who is powerful with ideally boots + 1 big item. Morphling/Nai'x/Void ect. Also know that semi carries count as carries in most pub games. if the best player is playing them. now it's incredibly difficult to judge people based on the 1 minute you get before you pick your hero. you just have to do your best and get better at this in order to win the majority of the games you can. 80% of all games at low levels are winnable, 85 at high level 90 at very high. you just have to be perfect in your judgement of the character and skillsets of your team. Not easy. but it's possible. | ||
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Kishin2
United States7534 Posts
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
I mean I don't blame them if they're completely new, no Dota1 experience, and less than 20 games. After all, this is the only way to get the community to get bigger. Anyway, I random almost ALL PICK games to get an early advantage, and if it's not that game mode, I always pick to win (good synergy, enough disables, etc.), I try my best to win the games, but must I always play a carry to get a better ELO? | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
On November 21 2012 21:07 trinxified wrote: So I've played about 80-90 games now with 45 wins, better than 50% ratio, and I still find myself being put with very very bad players. I've got Dota 1 experience, so learning the game is ezpz for me. I mean I don't blame them if they're completely new, no Dota1 experience, and less than 20 games. After all, this is the only way to get the community to get bigger. Anyway, I random almost ALL PICK games to get an early advantage, and if it's not that game mode, I always pick to win (good synergy, enough disables, etc.), I try my best to win the games, but must I always play a carry to get a better ELO? No. | ||
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
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