EPTedit: Nvm I'm an idiot, in all my rocking back and forth on my chair I had somehow managed to pull out the power plug on my laptop. Only noticed when it notified me that I had 15% battery left. T_T
General Discussion - Page 1280
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Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
edit: Nvm I'm an idiot, in all my rocking back and forth on my chair I had somehow managed to pull out the power plug on my laptop. Only noticed when it notified me that I had 15% battery left. T_T | ||
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LazyFailKid
Canada750 Posts
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:11 LazyFailKid wrote: Wouldn't clock/jakiro 100% kill someone at 6 if clock landed his ult and jakiro was in range for his? why don't teams use that more? neither of them need too much farm and clock can go solo long or mid depending on the situation. Is it because there are better picks if you want to make the most out of jakiro's ult? The main issue is that you need both heroes to be six at a relevant time. Sure, if they hit level six in the first 8 minutes it may kill them, but this is not really something to expect from a support and a long laner. Most teams dont base their early game kill potential on the long laner having levels or farm so it would be extremely rare for this situation. Also, the combo isnt even that strong. A disrupter can accomplish the same thing by himself at level 6. Realistically, if you need 5 seconds to kill someone that early, you are going to lose the fight anyway. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
clock doesn't really win 1v1 lanes though, and a lot of the time teams are sending midgame powerhouses (like invoker, ta, rubick, etc) who kill things pretty well and are strong in lane he does make a pretty good long lane solo, but then he doesn't often hit 6 very fast | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:11 LazyFailKid wrote: Wouldn't clock/jakiro 100% kill someone at 6 if clock landed his ult and jakiro was in range for his? why don't teams use that more? neither of them need too much farm and clock can go solo long or mid depending on the situation. Is it because there are better picks if you want to make the most out of jakiro's ult? a lot of heroes kill a lot of heroes 2v1. the commonality of the situation and other team and map factors need to be put into account | ||
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LazyFailKid
Canada750 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
You can't really think this way and achieve good results. You want to rather think about what you want to accomplish then what you can accomplish with, not try force a hero into situations. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
If clock hits a hook on a target he's ganking it should pretty much be a guaranteed kill as long as the lane knows it's coming. Counterganks could kill him sure but it doesn't take a clockwerk specific composition to get kills with a clock who always hits his ult. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10666 Posts
Sometimes my team likes to give up or just troll because they dont wanna try. Im okay with this, this is the life of a solo queuer. But sometimes, rarely, they go as far as to sabotage your items in the courier. And this just pisses me off to no end. Im a pretty chill guy, I always keep my cool. But my blood boils when that shit happens. It can be with simple shit like tread pieces or TPs. It just pisses me off whenever they do it. But the main problem here is that I dont know who does it sometimes. Basically I cant report the person who did it unless I investigate further by looking at the replay. But honestly, faggots like those just arent even worth my time. Simply put: There should be a feature where other teammates cant touch your shit in the courier, plain and simple. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:51 LazyFailKid wrote: So there are better options for the exp lanes that can get kills faster and you wont get 6 at a relevant time if hard lane. It still seems like a good idea to counter melee heavy comps to isolate single targets if clock doesn't have a hard lane mid. and you can "win" mid in the way that you can help get kills on the sidelanes when most other people can't(or atleast i think you can) We need to know why you want to push clock so hard. The hero just isn't very strong unless run in very specific strategies. If you send clockwerk middle you should probably expect to lose. You dont want to pick a mid hero with the intention of losing the lane. The only time that is ever a consideration is invoker vs ta, but that rarely ever works. It feels like you are trying to force him into something he isn't. Dont be paikyo, please. Also, why are people obsessed with the idea of countering. You dont counter heros in dota, the game doesnt work that way. Even if there is a riki on the other team and you pick a slardar or the bounty hunter, guess what the riki can still be effective. Sure, certain heroes are strong against other heroes but that is not the same as countering. If we were to use countering in place of strong then every single hero would counter something right? For example: Bloodseeker counters people who move their hero when they have rupture on them. That is not useful information. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:08 Spicy_Curry wrote: We need to know why you want to push clock so hard. The hero just isn't very strong unless run in very specific strategies. If you send clockwerk middle you should probably expect to lose. You dont want to pick a mid hero with the intention of losing the lane. The only time that is ever a consideration is invoker vs ta, but that rarely ever works. It feels like you are trying to force him into something he isn't. Dont be paikyo, please. Also, why are people obsessed with the idea of countering. You dont counter heros in dota, the game doesnt work that way. Even if there is a riki on the other team and you pick a slardar or the bounty hunter, guess what the riki can still be effective. Sure, certain heroes are strong against other heroes but that is not the same as countering. If we were to use countering in place of strong then every single hero would counter something right? For example: Bloodseeker counters people who move their hero when they have rupture on them. That is not useful information. I think that's useful information. You're essentially saying Bloodseeker counters bad players, making him a pubstomp hero, which is pretty much what everyone thinks of Bloodseeker. I'm not saying people should be "obsessed" with the idea of countering in Dota2, but the term isn't irrelevant. Just because Bounty Hunter counters Riki doesn't mean there aren't games where the Riki does well. But given two equally skilled teams with lineups that compliment each other (in other words, a perfect world), the Bounty Hunter should be able to shut down the Riki pretty hard. That's just a result of their skill sets and how they interact with one another. Counter doesn't have to mean "wins 100% of the time, no exceptions," and IMO in pubs you really shouldn't be looking to counter a specific hero on the other team because that's not really conducive to learning, but it has its place. That said, I'm not sure why he's pushing Clock so hard. I like Clock, and think he's one of my better long lane heroes, but he isn't used in competitive play for a reason. He doesn't really bring very much to the table that other heroes can't do better. | ||
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BeanerBurrito
1010 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:22 ZasZ. wrote: I think that's useful information. You're essentially saying Bloodseeker counters bad players, making him a pubstomp hero, which is pretty much what everyone thinks of Bloodseeker. I'm not saying people should be "obsessed" with the idea of countering in Dota2, but the term isn't irrelevant. Just because Bounty Hunter counters Riki doesn't mean there aren't games where the Riki does well. But given two equally skilled teams with lineups that compliment each other (in other words, a perfect world), the Bounty Hunter should be able to shut down the Riki pretty hard. That's just a result of their skill sets and how they interact with one another. Counter doesn't have to mean "wins 100% of the time, no exceptions," and IMO in pubs you really shouldn't be looking to counter a specific hero on the other team because that's not really conducive to learning, but it has its place. That said, I'm not sure why he's pushing Clock so hard. I like Clock, and think he's one of my better long lane heroes, but he isn't used in competitive play for a reason. He doesn't really bring very much to the table that other heroes can't do better. It's better not to think that x hero counters y hero, but about the specific reason or reasons that x hero is good against y hero for example, bounty hunter doesn't "counter" sa. If you think it's just one hero countering another, the argument could be made that sa counters bh because bh can't reliably attack in smoke screen. The important thing to think about is that the track ability makes it so sa's ultimate doesn't make him invisible any more. When sa isn't able to be invisible, something his hero is balanced around, it makes him much weaker. It's not the counter it's the reason why one hero weakens another. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:22 ZasZ. wrote: I'm not saying people should be "obsessed" with the idea of countering in Dota2, but the term isn't irrelevant. Just because Bounty Hunter counters Riki doesn't mean there aren't games where the Riki does well. But given two equally skilled teams with lineups that compliment each other (in other words, a perfect world), the Bounty Hunter should be able to shut down the Riki pretty hard. That's just a result of their skill sets and how they interact with one another. Counter doesn't have to mean "wins 100% of the time, no exceptions," and IMO in pubs you really shouldn't be looking to counter a specific hero on the other team because that's not really conducive to learning, but it has its place. The term is irrelevant because it only factors a 1v1 matchup in a 5v5 game. You say you dont think the term is irrelevant but your next few sentences say exactly why its irrelevant. (not conducive to learning, requires perfect scenario(arguable)) | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:36 Spicy_Curry wrote: The term is irrelevant because it only factors a 1v1 matchup in a 5v5 game. You say you dont think the term is irrelevant but your next few sentences say exactly why its irrelevant. (not conducive to learning, requires perfect scenario(arguable)) There are situations where the term "counter" is used to talk about a 1v1 matchup in a 5v5 game, but I don't think this is one of them. In fact this is one of the better examples, where having BH makes Riki much less effective in any scenario where the two heroes are near each other, including teamfights. Track makes the entire team better at shutting down Riki, not just the Bounty Hunter. I didn't say counters required perfect scenarios, I said that's the metric by which you determine a counter. There are plenty of pub games where Riki does just fine against BH, but if both players were professional, playing on equally-skilled professional teams, the Riki should get shut down hard. That's a counter. It's not a "hard" counter, but still a counter. And just because it's not conducive to learning to pick heroes based on counters doesn't mean the term is irrelevant. We see it all the time in professional matches when teams pick Batrider or Venomancer when the other team has already picked TA. It doesn't mean the Bat/Veno team wins automatically, or even that the TA will lose her lane, because it depends on player skill. But the TA is at an inherent disadvantage against those heroes from the get-go, at least compared to what she would normally face. Maybe the problem is with the word counter, which I feel has a very negative connotation from SC2 where some counters are way too strong. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:47 ZasZ. wrote: There are situations where the term "counter" is used to talk about a 1v1 matchup in a 5v5 game, but I don't think this is one of them. In fact this is one of the better examples, where having BH makes Riki much less effective in any scenario where the two heroes are near each other, including teamfights. Track makes the entire team better at shutting down Riki, not just the Bounty Hunter. I didn't say counters required perfect scenarios, I said that's the metric by which you determine a counter. There are plenty of pub games where Riki does just fine against BH, but if both players were professional, playing on equally-skilled professional teams, the Riki should get shut down hard. That's a counter. It's not a "hard" counter, but still a counter. And just because it's not conducive to learning to pick heroes based on counters doesn't mean the term is irrelevant. We see it all the time in professional matches when teams pick Batrider or Venomancer when the other team has already picked TA. It doesn't mean the Bat/Veno team wins automatically, or even that the TA will lose her lane, because it depends on player skill. But the TA is at an inherent disadvantage against those heroes from the get-go, at least compared to what she would normally face. Maybe the problem is with the word counter, which I feel has a very negative connotation from SC2 where some counters are way too strong. No hero matchup is exactly 50/50, thats the beauty of dota. If I were to use your example, what if a matchup was 40/60 toward one hero? Would that make the hero with the 60 percent advantage a counter? I mean what would the definition for such a term be? Not super strong but strong enough to be strong? The term is completely arbitrary because there are just so many factors in the game. Also there is enough empirical evidence that proves that picking a venomancer against a TA or Riki against a BH in a professional setting is not seen as a massive advantage. It just changes the way the game is played for both teams, similar to how a team who is facing a naga, ds, enigma and etc has to choose small skirmishes instead of large battles. but if both players were professional, playing on equally-skilled professional teams, Thats a perfect scenario because there are no professional teams that are equally skilled. Its not possible in a 1v1 game like sc2 and it surely isnt possible in a team game. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:47 ZasZ. wrote: There are situations where the term "counter" is used to talk about a 1v1 matchup in a 5v5 game, but I don't think this is one of them. In fact this is one of the better examples, where having BH makes Riki much less effective in any scenario where the two heroes are near each other, including teamfights. Track makes the entire team better at shutting down Riki, not just the Bounty Hunter. I didn't say counters required perfect scenarios, I said that's the metric by which you determine a counter. There are plenty of pub games where Riki does just fine against BH, but if both players were professional, playing on equally-skilled professional teams, the Riki should get shut down hard. That's a counter. It's not a "hard" counter, but still a counter. And just because it's not conducive to learning to pick heroes based on counters doesn't mean the term is irrelevant. We see it all the time in professional matches when teams pick Batrider or Venomancer when the other team has already picked TA. It doesn't mean the Bat/Veno team wins automatically, or even that the TA will lose her lane, because it depends on player skill. But the TA is at an inherent disadvantage against those heroes from the get-go, at least compared to what she would normally face. Maybe the problem is with the word counter, which I feel has a very negative connotation from SC2 where some counters are way too strong. Huh no, unless you are talking solely about pubs Bounty doesn't really counter riki at all. What counters riki is good vision and people not isolating themselves. Does bounty make it easier to deal with riki? Well possibly but good teams will have sentries/dust out in teamfights anyway so those situations are normally the game. Does he counter him in skirmishes? Well you need vision first to track and it's unlikely your primary carry will be around solo if he's on the offensive so it might help but might not. Even if you have vision on riki you make the assumption that you can now kill him but that isn't always the case. Riki is generally the farming carry with really strong midgame peak depending on momentum. Vision or no vision he's going to deal tons of damage, in anything disables counter him like every other hero more than one hero with no disable but a vision placer Let's say instead of an offlane bounty you have an offlane furion. Now you have someone that can tp into skirmishes with detection. Does he counter riki now? Same concept as a bounty but he can be active on multiple areas of the map. What about a doombringer as your carry, He can just ulti the riki and achieves even more than a track surely? You can't look at 1v1 matchups and make judgments based on that. You have to take the whole team into account and the 1v1 to make a judgement. | ||
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Gheizen64
Italy2077 Posts
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:22 Dead9 wrote: clock + almost anything kills someone at 6, assuming they don't have blink clock doesn't really win 1v1 lanes though, and a lot of the time teams are sending midgame powerhouses (like invoker, ta, rubick, etc) who kill things pretty well and are strong in lane he does make a pretty good long lane solo, but then he doesn't often hit 6 very fast Its funny bc the current cog buff, you can win 1v1 in certain match up by using cog as area denial spell. The problem is without rocket, you lost the nuke that is needed to kill people at lv6  wow this hall of fame thing is stupid... look at this PL with his 1k GPM... | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
I'm beyond satisfied. Also I've moved on from playing with bots solo to playing with bots co-operatively! I've played just fine in the 25 or so MM games I've played but I just feel so much safer in bot games. One day I'll progress to playing MM games only. Maybe. | ||
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-MicroStar-
United States14 Posts
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