Abaddon Aghanim's Scepter Borrowed Time now redirects 35% of all damage dealt to nearby allied heroes to Abaddon when active [?]
Ancient Apparition Chilling Touch attack speed reduction increased from -15 to -20
Anti-Mage Mana Void's area of effect increased from 450 to 500
Axe Counter Helix now uses Pseudo Random chance [?]
Batrider Flaming Lasso mana cost increased from 150 to 225
Beastmaster Base damage increased by 4
Bloodseeker Bloodrage cast point improved from 0.6 to 0.4 Bloodrage can no longer be dispelled [?]
Bounty Hunter Track cast range increased from 900/1050/1200 to 1200
Brewmaster If you have not attacked for 10 seconds, your next attack will always activate a Drunken Brawler critical hit If you have not been attacked for 10 seconds, Drunken Brawler will cause you to evade the next attack[?]
Bristleback Warpath no longer has unique values for the first movement speed stack[?] Warpath movement speed stack bonus increased from 1/2/3% to 3/4/5% [?]
Broodmother Spiderling's Poison Sting damage per second increased from 4 to 8 Spin Web's free pathing no longer deactivates when enemy has vision on Broodmother Spin Web's free pathing is now disabled for 3 seconds when Broodmother takes damage [?] Insatiable Hunger lifesteal increased from 40/60/80% to 60/80/100%
Centaur Warrunner Hoof Stomp mana cost increased from 85/100/115/130 to 130
Chaos Knight Phantasm now has a 50% chance to create one extra illusion when cast
Chen Penitence cooldown reduced from 14 to 14/13/12/11
Clinkz Death Pact cooldown reduced from 45 to 45/40/35
Dazzle Poison Touch no longer causes a ministun[?]
Disruptor Kinetic Field cooldown reduced from 14 to 14/13/12/11
Doom Doom damage no longer ignores magic shields [?]
Drow Ranger Gust knockback duration increased from 0.2 to 0.5
Earth Spirit Stone Remnant recharge time reduced from 35 to 30
Earthshaker Creeps no longer try to path around Fissure; they will wait for it to disappear Echo Slam no longer ignores units that are invisible or in Fog of War
Elder Titan Echo Stomp mana cost reduced from 100/115/130/145 to 100 Echo Stomp physical and magical damage increased from 80 to 80/85/90/95 each
Ember Spirit Searing Chains duration reduced from 2/2/3/3 to 1/2/2/3 [?] Sleight of Fist bonus damage reduced from 30/60/90/120 to 20/40/60/80
Enchantress Untouchable slow duration increased from 3 to 4
Enigma Midnight Pulse area of effect increased from 400 to 600
Faceless Void Base agility increased from 21 to 23 Turn rate improved from 0.5 to 1
Gyrocopter Homing Missile now hits invisible units Homing Missile hits required to destroy increased from 3 to 3/3/4/5
Huskar Burning Spears is no longer a Unique Attack Modifier
Invoker Ghost Walk slow no longer affects magic immune enemies EMP delay increased from 2.6 to 2.9
Jakiro Dual Breath range increased by 50 Liquid Fire level 4 cooldown reduced from 5 to 4 Aghanim's Scepter Macropyre duration increased from 7 to 14 Aghanim's Scepter Macropyre range increased from 1350 to 1800 [?]
Juggernaut Base attack time improved from 1.6 to 1.5
Keeper of the Light Added Aghanim's Scepter upgrade: Provides permanent Spirit Form. Additionally, the following effects are active during the day: Keeper of the Light gains unobstructed vision and Illuminate heals allies for 75% of the damage values
Kunkka Torrent area of effect increased from 215 to 225 X Marks The Spot can now last twice as long on allied heroes Ghost Ship allied buff duration increased from 8 to 10 Add Ghost Ship AOE indicator for allies
Legion Commander Overwhelming Odds bonus damage per hero is increased from 14/16/18/20 to 20/35/50/65 [?] Overwhelming Odds area of effect increased from 315 to 330 Overwhelming Odds base damage rescaled from 50/100/150/200 to 60/100/140/180 Moment of Courage now uses Pseudo Random chance [?]
Leshrac Lightning Storm now slows its targets by 75% for 0.5 seconds
Lich Frost Armor can now be cast on buildings Aghanim's Scepter Chain Frost no longer has a bounce limit
Lina Attack range increased from 650 to 670 Aghanim's Scepter Laguna Blade damage goes through magic immunity [?]
Lion Hex cooldown reduced from 30/25/20/15 to 30/24/18/12
Lone Druid Spirit Bear health regeneration increased from 2 to 2/3/4/5
Luna Base agility reduced from 22 to 18
Lycan Shapeshift no longer provides 100/200/300 bonus health
Magnus Removed Skewer maximum target limit Skewer range increased from 600/800/1000/1200 to 750/900/1050/1200
Medusa Split Shot reworked from 50/60/70/80% damage with 5 maximum targets, to 80% damage with 2/3/4/5 maximum targets Mystic Snake no longer requires Fog of War vision to bounce Mana Shield damage absorption per mana increased from 1/1.5/2/2.5 to 1.6/1.9/2.2/2.5
Meepo Base movement speed increased from 305 to 315
Mirana Sacred Arrow vision reduced from 800 to 650
Naga Siren Mirror Image illusion damage dealt reduced from 30/35/40/45% to 20/25/30/35% Rip Tide area of effect reduced from 350 to 320 Rip Tide negative armor no longer goes through magic immunity
Necrophos Heartstopper Aura area of effect increased from 1000 to 1200 Reaper's Scythe now adds +30% duration to the respawn timer
Night Stalker Darkness now also affects the vision of buildings
Nyx Assassin Impale cooldown increased from 11 to 13 Impale can no longer be blocked by Linken's Sphere
Ogre Magi Base armor increased by 1 Cast animation improved from 0.56 to 0.45
Omniknight Purification area of effect increased from 225 to 240 Repel no longer removes positive buffs from allies [?] Guardian Angel duration increased from 5/6/7 to 6/7/8 Aghanim's Scepter Guardian Angel duration increased from 5/6/7 to 8/9/10
Phantom Assassin Stifling Dagger cooldown reduced from 8 to 6 Blur evasion chance increased from 20/25/30/40 to 20/30/40/50
Phoenix Icarus Dive cast point extended from 0.01 to 0.2 Fire Spirits damage reduced from 15/35/55/75 to 10/30/50/70 Fire Spirits health cost increased from 15% to 20%
Pugna Decrepify mana cost reduced from 100 to 60 Nether Ward duration increased from 25 to 30
Queen of Pain Shadow Strike cooldown reduced from 20/16/12/8 to 16/12/8/4 Shadow Strike cast range increased from 400 to 435
Razor Strength gain increased from 1.7 to 2.3 Unstable Current slow duration increased from 0.4/0.8/1.2/1.6 to 0.5/1/1.5/2
Riki Backstab now works when attacking allied units
Shadow Demon Added Aghanim's Scepter upgrade: Demonic Purge cooldown replaced with two charges that have a 40 second replenish time
Shadow Fiend Requiem of Souls' secondary debuff now affects magic immune units
Silencer Agility growth increased from 2.1 to 3.0 Curse of the Silent cooldown reduced from 20/18/16/14 to 20/16/12/8
Skywrath Mage Base movement speed increased from 315 to 325 Concussive Shot damage increased from 50/100/150/200 to 60/120/180/240
Sniper Fixed Sniper's acquisition range not matching his maximum attack range [?]
Spirit Breaker Nether Strike cast range increased from 400/550/700 to 700 [?] Nether Strike cooldown rebalanced from 75 to 80/70/60
Sven Base damage increased by 6
Templar Assassin Psionic Trap sub-ability now has the same cast point as the ability on the trap itself[?]
Terrorblade Strength gain reduced from 1.9 to 1.4 Reflection slow no longer persists through magic immunity Reflection duration rebalanced from 5 to 2.5/3.5/4.5/5.5
Tidehunter Anchor Smash damage reduction increased from 40 to 60% Anchor Smash now works on Ancient creeps[?]
Tinker Heat Seeking Missile is no longer blocked by Ethereal
Tiny Craggy Exterior stun duration rescaled from 1.2/1.3/1.4/1.5 to 1/1.25/1.5/1.75
Troll Warlord Melee Whirling Axes cast point improved from 0.2 to 0
Tusk Reworked Snowball into a two-part ability: one which creates the snowball, and a sub-ability to launch the snowball. You have up to 4 seconds to use the sub-ability. The area that automatically pulls allies in has been reduced. [?] You can now load an ally into your snowball within 400 range by right clicking on them Snowball moves 75 MS faster for each allied hero inside it Snowball deals 20/30/40/50 extra damage for each additional hero in it
Undying Soul Rip area of effect increased from 975 to 1300 Tombstone Zombie Deathlust's Max % health threshold increased from 5/10/15/20% to 20/25/30/35% Tombstone Zombies no longer give any experience or gold [?] Tombstone Bounty increased from 70/90/110/130 to 75/100/125/150 Flesh Golem's Plague Aura now affects magic immune units
Ursa Fury Swipes is no longer a Unique Attack Modifier
Vengeful Spirit When Vengeful Spirit is slain, her killer is inflicted with a negative Vengeance Aura, which decreases the damage of her killer and their nearby allies, until she revives [?]
Visage Grave Chill cooldown increased from 10 to 16/14/12/10
Warlock Shadow Word duration increased from 9 to 11 Upheaval cooldown reduced from 50 to 50/46/42/38
Windranger Activating Windrun now disjoints incoming attack projectiles Aghanim's Scepter Focus Fire damage reduction decreased from -50/-40/-30 to -30/-15/0, and no longer has special rules for procs
Witch Doctor Maledict cooldown reduced from 35 to 20 Death Ward base attack time improved from 0.25 to 0.22
Wraith King Mortal Strike damage ratio increased from 1.25/1.75/2.25/2.75 to 1.5/2/2.5/3 Base armor reduced by 1
Zeus Arc Lightning cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.2 Lightning Bolt true sight range reduced from 900 to 750 Lightning Bolt flying vision range reduced from 1000 to 750 Lightning Bolt can now be cast on the ground, affecting the closest enemy hero in a 250 range
ITEMS
Animal Courier Ground Courier respawn time reduced from 180 seconds to 140 seconds
Bloodstone Bloodpact heal increased from 400 HP + 30 HP/charge to 500 HP + 30 HP/charge
Clarity Mana regeneration from 100 over 30 seconds to 135 over 40 seconds
Eul's Scepter of Divinity Cyclone now deals 50 damage to enemy units when they land You can now cast Cyclone on yourself while you are magic immune
Manta Style Mirror Image now resets the current attack and spell targeting priority [?]
Mjollnir Chain Lightning damage reduced from 160 to 150 Static Shock area of effect is now centered around the unit with the Static Charge, rather than around the attacker Fixed Chain Lightning not functioning properly when it procs while a previous proc is still bouncing [?]
Necronomicon Necronomicon Warrior's movement speed rescaled from 330/360/390 to 350 Necronomicon units XP bounty increased from 59 to 100/150/200
Observer and Sentry Wards Sharing wards with allies now requires a Control key override.[?] Wards can no longer be placed in the fountain areas
Pipe of Insight Pipe health regeneration reduced from 11 to 8 Pipe now provides Insight Aura, which grants 4 health regeneration to nearby allies Pipe's active buff is no longer dispellable
Rod of Atos Cripple ability cooldown reduced from 12 to 10
Scythe of Vyse Hexed units' base movement speed increased from 100 to 140[?]
Shadow Amulet Fade no longer requires the target to remain stationary [?]
Shadow Blade Shadow Walk duration increased from 12 to 14
Town Portal Scroll Added an option to require a halt command to in order to cancel a Town Portal Scroll
Need to read more about bugfixes, but i'm almost sleeping right now, thanks for fixing bunch of them, Valve <3
Earthshaker is dead again. Sick buffs to Razor and WD, don't think that Lich will have tons of scepters in competitive, Naga, Lycan, Ember and Phoenix are nerfed, even if Ember got minor nerf. Still legit. Oh, TB is nerfed as well, thank God.
And Silencer now has 3.0 agility per level. There isn't every agility hero who has same amount l0l. Nice rework for snowball, i approve.
AND STOP NERFING VISAGE, HE'S DEAD BIRD, NO REASON TO SMASH HERO WITH EVERY PATCH FOR LAST YEAR.
>> Wards can no longer be placed in the fountain areas
Shit, hadn't lost a game with ward on fountain :< And RoA buff again <3 Thanks, Valve, you're making climbing from 5600 to 6k easier.
Bristleback Warpath no longer has unique values for the first movement speed stack[?] Warpath movement speed stack bonus increased from 1/2/3% to 3/4/5% [?]
I am laughing like a mad man outside in this smoking area
I think the Naga changes slightly miss the mark. The problem is that the illusions are too tough to KILL. Their damage is primarily via Radiance. The Rip Tide change hurts her a lot, though.
TB, Phoenix, and Ember changes totally called for and on the exact right level. Not entirely sure about Lycan, but time will tell.
Why the fuck are we buffing Pugna? That hero is boring as shit to play with, against, or watch.
Also, Undying might well be the next premier support. I think this new version is going to turn almost entirely into teamfight and push if he becomes anywhere near as good as I think he's going to be.
Wow Keeper of the Light is so insane xD And undying too ! I welcome this patch and the way it'll change the game, even if I have no idea how it'll change the game yet. No new captain mode hero tho
Ho and I don't know why they buffed tiny, I know it's a rescale but it's still a buff for late game tiny, 2 seconds passive stun is way too good imo, should be a ministun.
Lycan nerf seems really intense, seems like he's been killed pretty hard.
The other thing that seems really significant to me is the Necrobook... That is a really high bounty, should allow comebacks to the losing team being fed gold while the opposing team uses Necrobooks to try and break the high ground.
On April 26 2014 09:45 FiWiFaKi wrote: Everything looks good.
Lycan nerf seems really intense, seems like he's been killed pretty hard.
The other thing that seems really significant to me is the Necrobook... That is a really high bounty, should allow comebacks to the loosing team being fed gold while the opposing team uses Necrobooks to try and break the high ground.
I assume you're being sarcastic with the Lycan comment. He's still more than capable of taking down towers in the blink of an eye. The HP nerf hits hard, but if he does what we've come to expect from a Lycan and doesn't engage the enemy team, there's no change in his towerfucking ability.
Abaddon - Aghanim's Scepter Borrowed Time now redirects 35% of all damage dealt to nearby allied heroes to Abaddon when active
Brewmaster - If you have not attacked for 10 seconds, your next attack will always activate a Drunken Brawler critical hit - If you have not been attacked for 10 seconds, Drunken Brawler will cause you to evade the next attack[?]
Centaur Warrunner - Hoof Stomp mana cost increased from 85/100/115/130 to 130
Drow Ranger - Gust knockback duration increased from 0.2 to 0.5
Ember Spirit - Searing Chains duration reduced from 2/2/3/3 to 1/2/2/3 - Sleight of Fist bonus damage reduced from 30/60/90/120 to 20/40/60/80
Huskar - Burning Spears is no longer a Unique Attack Modifier
Jakiro - Aghanim's Scepter Macropyre duration increased from 7 to 14 - Aghanim's Scepter Macropyre range increased from 1350 to 1800 - Bunker build time increased by 5 seconds.
Juggernaut - Base attack time improved from 1.6 to 1.5
Keeper of the Light - Added Aghanim's Scepter upgrade: Provides permanent Spirit Form. Additionally, the following effects are active during the day: Keeper of the Light gains unobstructed vision and Illuminate heals allies for 75% of the damage values
Lich - Frost Armor can now be cast on buildings - Aghanim's Scepter Chain Frost no longer has a bounce limit
Luna - Base agility reduced from 22 to 18
Necrophos - Reaper's Scythe now adds +30% duration to the respawn timer
Terrorblade - Strength gain reduced from 1.9 to 1.4 - Reflection slow no longer persists through magic immunity - Reflection duration rebalanced from 5 to 2.5/3.5/4.5/5.5
Troll Warlord - Melee Whirling Axes cast point improved from 0.2 to 0 - Bunker build time reduced by 5 seconds.
Ursa - Fury Swipes is no longer a Unique Attack Modifier
Vengeful Spirit - When Vengeful Spirit is slain, her killer is inflicted with a negative Vengeance Aura, which decreases the damage of her killer and their nearby allies, until she revives
On April 26 2014 09:45 FiWiFaKi wrote: Everything looks good.
Lycan nerf seems really intense, seems like he's been killed pretty hard.
The other thing that seems really significant to me is the Necrobook... That is a really high bounty, should allow comebacks to the loosing team being fed gold while the opposing team uses Necrobooks to try and break the high ground.
I assume you're being sarcastic with the Lycan comment. He's still more than capable of taking down towers in the blink of an eye. The HP nerf hits hard, but if he does what we've come to expect from a Lycan and doesn't engage the enemy team, there's no change in his towerfucking ability.
Hmm, well lets say level 16 Lycan gets so use Shapeshift every 40 seconds, and it lasts for 18 seconds. So essentially he will use Shapeshift in most engagements. At level 16 we can expect the Lycan to have 1500hp~? So I feel like that extra 300hp being 1/6 of his health for every engagement is quite big.
Maybe I'm just really overestimating the change.
edit: I do agree with you that early game he will still function as he always has, but once you start to incorporate him into your team fights it will be harder. I guess it isn't that significant, but we shall see ^^.
When a unit under the player's control dies, you no longer immediately deselect it and return control to the Hero unit
sorta part of the patch (just not balance wise). so fucking happy, my biggest complaint about this game is still engine problems and non-re-sizable hud
Very quickly toggling between selection groups was incorrectly counting as a double-click on a group
omg can actually play micro heroes now without forcing myself to slow down / not spam for fun
Being that i'm a TA fanboy, I'm rather overjoyed that I can be totally lazy with her trap controls now
The change to TB is kinda... not what I expected. Granted Reflection at early level = death most of the time to the person that it was casted on... I was expecting a change to Metamorphoses. Strength change is big though, not as much health. But... TB is still the same...
Naga nerf is big though, illusion damage is weak sauce
He was never going to get a Meta change. That's what defines the hero. What he got is huge .5 strength per level and no longer a guaranteed kill on the offlaner at 2 are great. It takes away a big part of his laning presence and he's now more squishy than ever meaning with good nukes you don't have to retreat against Meta anymore in the midgame.
On April 26 2014 09:45 FiWiFaKi wrote: Everything looks good.
Lycan nerf seems really intense, seems like he's been killed pretty hard.
The other thing that seems really significant to me is the Necrobook... That is a really high bounty, should allow comebacks to the loosing team being fed gold while the opposing team uses Necrobooks to try and break the high ground.
I assume you're being sarcastic with the Lycan comment. He's still more than capable of taking down towers in the blink of an eye. The HP nerf hits hard, but if he does what we've come to expect from a Lycan and doesn't engage the enemy team, there's no change in his towerfucking ability.
Hmm, well lets say level 16 Lycan gets so use Shapeshift every 40 seconds, and it lasts for 18 seconds. So essentially he will use Shapeshift in most engagements. At level 16 we can expect the Lycan to have 1500hp~? So I feel like that extra 300hp being 1/6 of his health for every engagement is quite big.
Maybe I'm just really overestimating the change.
edit: I do agree with you that early game he will still function as he always has, but once you start to incorporate him into your team fights it will be harder. I guess it isn't that significant, but we shall see ^^.
The thing that neither of you mentioned is that Lycan ult is added as base HP (just like Clinkz's Dark Pact), which means that the amount of burst you needed to kill a level 11+ Lycan was 200 HP more because he instantly gained 200 HP on popping ulti. Not getting that 200 HP for free actually increases the likelihood of being able to catch and kill him with certain heroes, rather than him just getting away from everything.
On April 26 2014 10:07 LeLoup wrote: He was never going to get a Meta change. That's what defines the hero. What he got is huge .5 strength per level and no longer a guaranteed kill on the offlaner at 2 are great. It takes away a big part of his laning presence and he's now more squishy than ever meaning with good nukes you don't have to retreat against Meta anymore in the midgame.
It also means he's far more dependent on Meta overall because losing a chunk of HP and a ton of strength off one of his core fighting skills makes him a lot weaker when Meta is on CD.
On April 26 2014 10:07 LeLoup wrote: He was never going to get a Meta change. That's what defines the hero. What he got is huge .5 strength per level and no longer a guaranteed kill on the offlaner at 2 are great. It takes away a big part of his laning presence and he's now more squishy than ever meaning with good nukes you don't have to retreat against Meta anymore in the midgame.
I was expecting more of an overhaul of the damage, making it weaker early and then more or less the same at max level. The change to Reflection only means that you have to put a few levels into it now to make it a bit more effective.
While his armor is unchanged, losing health means a lot, but it also means that you just have to be a bit more careful and you can no longer be reckless with TB early even though his armor is still one of the highest in game early. I am curious of this means he'll be in Captains Mode in TI4 or will he join after
Zeus Arc Lightning cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.2 Lightning Bolt true sight range reduced from 900 to 750 Lightning Bolt flying vision range reduced from 1000 to 750 Lightning Bolt can now be cast on the ground, affecting the closest enemy hero in a 250 range
Wait.
So am I right in saying Zeus can de-ward whenever he likes, even high ground, starting from level 1 at will?
Zeus Arc Lightning cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.2 Lightning Bolt true sight range reduced from 900 to 750 Lightning Bolt flying vision range reduced from 1000 to 750 Lightning Bolt can now be cast on the ground, affecting the closest enemy hero in a 250 range
Wait.
So am I right in saying Zeus can de-ward whenever he likes, even high ground, starting from level 1 at will?
Zeus Arc Lightning cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.2 Lightning Bolt true sight range reduced from 900 to 750 Lightning Bolt flying vision range reduced from 1000 to 750 Lightning Bolt can now be cast on the ground, affecting the closest enemy hero in a 250 range
Wait.
So am I right in saying Zeus can de-ward whenever he likes, even high ground, starting from level 1 at will?
Nope, enemy hero - wards are not hero classed
He still gets the vision, so yes
EDIT: Bloodseeker now confirmed to be the counter to everything.
Zeus Arc Lightning cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.2 Lightning Bolt true sight range reduced from 900 to 750 Lightning Bolt flying vision range reduced from 1000 to 750 Lightning Bolt can now be cast on the ground, affecting the closest enemy hero in a 250 range
Wait.
So am I right in saying Zeus can de-ward whenever he likes, even high ground, starting from level 1 at will?
Nope, enemy hero - wards are not hero classed
Right, but it doesn't actually specify what it means by that. I assumed it meant the lightning bolt only hits a hero within 250 range, but you still are granted the true sight bonus regardless of location.
On April 26 2014 10:12 LeLoup wrote: One thing I think has to be talked about is the fact that Fury Swipes is no longer than an Orb.
HoD/Satanic now better than vlads for Ursa, or does he still want the mana regen/armor?
I was thinking about that too. The armor is the same for both vlads and hotd, so the real difference is mana regen + team aura vs hotd creep + buildup into satanic. I think im going hotd on him unless i have another melee hard carry on the team.
Zeus Arc Lightning cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.2 Lightning Bolt true sight range reduced from 900 to 750 Lightning Bolt flying vision range reduced from 1000 to 750 Lightning Bolt can now be cast on the ground, affecting the closest enemy hero in a 250 range
Wait.
So am I right in saying Zeus can de-ward whenever he likes, even high ground, starting from level 1 at will?
Nope, enemy hero - wards are not hero classed
Right, but it doesn't actually specify what it means by that. I assumed it meant the lightning bolt only hits a hero within 250 range, but you still are granted the true sight bonus regardless of location.
Zeus Arc Lightning cast point improved from 0.4 to 0.2 Lightning Bolt true sight range reduced from 900 to 750 Lightning Bolt flying vision range reduced from 1000 to 750 Lightning Bolt can now be cast on the ground, affecting the closest enemy hero in a 250 range
Wait.
So am I right in saying Zeus can de-ward whenever he likes, even high ground, starting from level 1 at will?
Nope, enemy hero - wards are not hero classed
Right, but it doesn't actually specify what it means by that. I assumed it meant the lightning bolt only hits a hero within 250 range, but you still are granted the true sight bonus regardless of location.
Tested in Client. think of it like Light Strike Array. Except it only can target 1 hero in the radius and gives truesight.
People speak about Ursa, but Huskar's W isn't an orb anymore as well :D You won't build desolator on Ursa anyway before main items and Huskar doesn't care at all.
On April 26 2014 10:12 LeLoup wrote: One thing I think has to be talked about is the fact that Fury Swipes is no longer than an Orb.
HoD/Satanic now better than vlads for Ursa, or does he still want the mana regen/armor?
Deso seems like the most appealing orb, IMO.
what about diffusal?
Possibly useful if Ghost Scepter becomes an issue for you, but under normal circumstances Deso just seems to have the best interaction with Ursa's normal gameplay of Blink->someone dies in 6 hits.
Why would you go anything not lifesteal? Now you can go HoD instead of vlads so you can still solo Rosh, jungle, and get a purge or disable creep if you need it. Deso is way too expensive when Ursa still needs items like blink dagger.
Brewmaster, big change. Imagine harassing him on BH or a similar hero. KOTL ags sounds fun :D. Ghost ship AOE indicator, that's nice. No bounce limit lich - hilarious. 50% evasion on PA is nice. Dagger cooldown also. Could even be have potential as a phase-drums offlaner? Queen of pain buff is horrible, another OD free-win mid hero now. Will be fun to try SD new ags also. Tidehunter ancient strats inc. Tusk could be fun now also. Nice venge buff :D I can swap into a team of 5 and they won't want to kill me. Nice WR buffs also. Bloodstone buff nice because I'm planning to play lots of storm. Eul's damage... good, I like this item. Rod of Atos buff... also good, been using this on Rubick. Good situational item. Biggest of all, tp scroll buff :D no more fucking up.##
On April 26 2014 10:21 Sn0_Man wrote: no u just rosh at level 3 with morbid mask after going to jungle with like 4 pooled tangoes and a pooled smoke lol.
Honestly this might be the best use of Fury Swipes not being an orb. Don't bother with either HoD or Vlad's, and only get the casual Mask to do Rosh, then get your Blink Dagger 1k gold sooner.
On April 26 2014 10:35 Daralii wrote: With a butterfly, PA now has 67% evasion. All rightclickers must die.
On April 26 2014 10:21 Sn0_Man wrote: no u just rosh at level 3 with morbid mask after going to jungle with like 4 pooled tangoes and a pooled smoke lol.
Honestly this might be the best use of Fury Swipes not being an orb. Don't bother with either HoD or Vlad's, and only get the casual Mask to do Rosh, then get your Blink Dagger 1k gold sooner.
By far the funniest thing about the Lich change is that you can just stack up bouncing Chain Frosts on magic immune creeps like enemy ancients, to for example insta kill their carry when he comes to farm.
On April 26 2014 10:21 Sn0_Man wrote: no u just rosh at level 3 with morbid mask after going to jungle with like 4 pooled tangoes and a pooled smoke lol.
Honestly this might be the best use of Fury Swipes not being an orb. Don't bother with either HoD or Vlad's, and only get the casual Mask to do Rosh, then get your Blink Dagger 1k gold sooner.
Roshan base armor increased by 1 Attack Speed now always continually adjusts based on the latest modifications applied to the unit [?] Melee illusions created by a Rune of Illusion take 200% instead of 300% damage
Random Draft hero selection pool increased from 22 to 24 Captain's Draft hero selection pool increased from 24 to 27 (8 per type to 9) Captain's Draft hero bans increased from 4 to 6 Meepo is no longer available in Ability Draft
<3
Also: Jakiro aghs = 14 sec Macropyre
and the addition to Venge aura is super cool. Venge + bloodstone a new thing? Swap a main target, so you're in the middle of the enemy then suicide? New strats? gg icefraog?
On April 26 2014 10:40 saksy2 wrote: By far the funniest thing about the Lich change is that you can just stack up bouncing Chain Frosts on magic immune creeps like enemy ancients, to for example insta kill their carry when he comes to farm.
Tusk's snowball can now go anywhere instead of just targeting an enemy? That's pretty fucking OP. You could give your whole team an escape route or a sick initiation.
On April 26 2014 10:40 saksy2 wrote: By far the funniest thing about the Lich change is that you can just stack up bouncing Chain Frosts on magic immune creeps like enemy ancients, to for example insta kill their carry when he comes to farm.
On April 26 2014 10:40 saksy2 wrote: By far the funniest thing about the Lich change is that you can just stack up bouncing Chain Frosts on magic immune creeps like enemy ancients, to for example insta kill their carry when he comes to farm.
youd just see it and run...maybe at most u get hit 2 or 3 times but no competent palyer will die to that shit and if lich is using it multiple times on ancients enemy team should be winning fights rofl
On April 26 2014 10:44 holyhalo5 wrote: Tusk's snowball can now go anywhere instead of just targeting an enemy? That's pretty fucking OP. You could give your whole team an escape route or a sick initiation.
lol wtf, that is guna be ridiculous. Noob Tusk's guna be snowballing their teams around everywhere like wtf is going on?!!?! hahaha
On April 26 2014 10:44 holyhalo5 wrote: Tusk's snowball can now go anywhere instead of just targeting an enemy? That's pretty fucking OP. You could give your whole team an escape route or a sick initiation.
On April 26 2014 10:45 FinestHour wrote: youd just see it and run...maybe at most u get hit 2 or 3 times but no competent palyer will die to that shit and if lich is using it multiple times on ancients enemy team should be winning fights rofl
If anyone blinks to the ancients though...
Am seeing Necro as the most buffed hero TBH. Refresher 1st item ftw!
BKB doesn't dispel bloodrage. That's right boys. Not only can bloodcyka shut down a luna, it can also come after you while it's magic immune with +120% damage.
Also THANK GOD Dazzle no longer ministuns. God I hated TPing from Dazzle.
"Creeps no longer try to path around Fissure; they will wait for it to disappear" LOL offlane blocks gg
WTF KotL/Lich. I can see Goblak doing lich/treant bullshit allllllllllll day.
Ogre Magi - "base armor increased by 1"
Omniknight - "Purification area of effect increased from 225 to 240" YES THIS SHIT RIGHT HERE, CAN'T EVEN HIT A FUCKING SNAIL WITH PURIFICATION
On April 26 2014 10:44 holyhalo5 wrote: Tusk's snowball can now go anywhere instead of just targeting an enemy? That's pretty fucking OP. You could give your whole team an escape route or a sick initiation.
How do you think it'd work with Relocate?
Nah I assume that while you're in a snowball you can click the area that you wanna go, and enemies along the path take damage, but there's a limited distance which the snow ball can travel. It never says "tusk rolls into a snowball towards a target enemy" like it previously did so i assume you don't have to target anything.
One question... What the hell does "Pseudo Random Chance" mean? So basically the random chance is a scam? Or are they using a different definition of "pseudo"?
On April 26 2014 10:53 ArTiFaKs wrote: One question... What the hell does "Pseudo Random Chance" mean? So basically the random chance is a scam? Or are they using a different definition of "pseudo"?
Added Aghanim's Scepter upgrade: Provides permanent Spirit Form. Additionally, the following effects are active during the day: Keeper of the Light gains unobstructed vision and Illuminate heals allies for 75% of the damage values
On April 26 2014 10:59 Testuser wrote: Added Aghanim's Scepter upgrade: Provides permanent Spirit Form. Additionally, the following effects are active during the day: Keeper of the Light gains unobstructed vision and Illuminate heals allies for 75% of the damage values
On April 26 2014 10:21 Sn0_Man wrote: no u just rosh at level 3 with morbid mask after going to jungle with like 4 pooled tangoes and a pooled smoke lol.
Honestly this might be the best use of Fury Swipes not being an orb. Don't bother with either HoD or Vlad's, and only get the casual Mask to do Rosh, then get your Blink Dagger 1k gold sooner.
From dicking around in the test client, you really want at least a Stout (or a support to sneak into the pit with you and tank while you build up stacks) or Rosh can just bash you to death at level 3. If you're getting pooled you can have a mask at like minute 2 anyway so you might as well get one.
On April 26 2014 11:15 TheRubicon wrote: is this patch live? i see it in my client yet all those updates mentioned did not appear live in my ranked game?
It normally takes a day or more to get into live client.
Kotl can now skip mek and rush Agh lol...so op. Also dat Huskar and Ursa! So many viable items now. Ursa HotD and alpha wolf + skadi incoming. Or deso. Or MoM. or diffusal. shit son!
edit: holy shit just realized Kotl gets unobstructed vision WTF. GG Kotl all day every day
My fave heroes all got buffed..... Lina, KotL, Abaddon and sometimes Venge are fantastic now.
My favourite hero of all time, Phoenix, only got somewhat minor (but definitely needed) nerfs. I imagined much more devastating nerfs on phoenix, but hey, looks like it can continue to net lots of wins for me while making me feel less dirty when using it.
I'm happy! :D EDIT: Does the unobstructed vision for KotL and the heal come from aghs? Or is it inbuilt?
Pretty minor changes overall. Blood seeker confirmed still best pub hero. Kotl buff quite insane, but still needs Agha to do so. Its not exactly that game breaking like aa ulti though. Pugna with an unnecessary buff. Lich ulti buff is nothing, but his armour buff is decent. Roa still 3rd best item in game after dagon and blade mail :D abaddon good support hero. Bat nerf is more of annoyance, but should not matter. Ay overall nothing that game breaking that will change the meta IMO.
Oh support meepo is even stronger for teams that can run it.
There is nothing I want to say about this patch except its ruining dota. This is just sad, balanced hero got nerfed and imba hero got buffed. I like the idea of keep nerfing over picked heros, it seems like people still pick them no matter what just a bit less maybe, like batrider and darkseer. Instead of buffing heros that are balanced already just no one wants to play them. It will end up being imbalanced in the end. This patch is the perfect example.
On April 26 2014 12:14 Eternalobi wrote: There is nothing I want to say about this patch except its ruining dota. This is just sad, balanced hero got nerfed and imba hero got buffed. I like the idea of keep nerfing over picked heros, it seems like people still pick them no matter what just a bit less maybe, like batrider and darkseer. Instead of buffing heros that are balanced already just no one wants to play them. It will end up being imbalanced in the end. This patch is the perfect example.
On April 26 2014 12:14 Eternalobi wrote: There is nothing I want to say about this patch except its ruining dota. This is just sad, balanced hero got nerfed and imba hero got buffed. I like the idea of keep nerfing over picked heros, it seems like people still pick them no matter what just a bit less maybe, like batrider and darkseer. Instead of buffing heros that are balanced already just no one wants to play them. It will end up being imbalanced in the end. This patch is the perfect example.
I personally rather they don't have these changes as many buffs and nerfs were rather minor. Considering how great 6.80 was, they shouldn't have touched it that way.
PS. TB's nerf is good though. Reflection no longer 1 point wonder.
On April 26 2014 12:12 DucK- wrote: Pretty minor changes overall. Blood seeker confirmed still best pub hero. Kotl buff quite insane, but still needs Agha to do so. Its not exactly that game breaking like aa ulti though. Pugna with an unnecessary buff. Lich ulti buff is nothing, but his armour buff is decent. Roa still 3rd best item in game after dagon and blade mail :D abaddon good support hero. Bat nerf is more of annoyance, but should not matter. Ay overall nothing that game breaking that will change the meta IMO.
Oh support meepo is even stronger for teams that can run it.
I dunno about your assessment of KotL Aghs. He can get it a lot quicker than AA and permanent access to Relocate/Blinding Light/safe Illuminate that can heal allies for 375 health every 10 seconds is crazy. Combine that with a Mek on someone else and KotL becomes the best push sustainer in the game.
On April 26 2014 12:12 DucK- wrote: Pretty minor changes overall. Blood seeker confirmed still best pub hero. Kotl buff quite insane, but still needs Agha to do so. Its not exactly that game breaking like aa ulti though. Pugna with an unnecessary buff. Lich ulti buff is nothing, but his armour buff is decent. Roa still 3rd best item in game after dagon and blade mail :D abaddon good support hero. Bat nerf is more of annoyance, but should not matter. Ay overall nothing that game breaking that will change the meta IMO.
Oh support meepo is even stronger for teams that can run it.
I dunno about your assessment of KotL Aghs. He can get it a lot quicker than AA and permanent access to Relocate/Blinding Light/safe Illuminate that can heal allies for 375 health every 10 seconds is crazy. Combine that with a Mek and KotL becomes one of the best push sustainers in the game.
Also godly for r[A]t strategies. Alliance TI4 winners confirmed.
On April 26 2014 12:12 DucK- wrote: Pretty minor changes overall. Blood seeker confirmed still best pub hero. Kotl buff quite insane, but still needs Agha to do so. Its not exactly that game breaking like aa ulti though. Pugna with an unnecessary buff. Lich ulti buff is nothing, but his armour buff is decent. Roa still 3rd best item in game after dagon and blade mail :D abaddon good support hero. Bat nerf is more of annoyance, but should not matter. Ay overall nothing that game breaking that will change the meta IMO.
Oh support meepo is even stronger for teams that can run it.
I dunno about your assessment of KotL Aghs. He can get it a lot quicker than AA and permanent access to Relocate/Blinding Light/safe Illuminate that can heal allies for 375 health every 10 seconds is crazy. Combine that with a Mek and KotL becomes one of the best push sustainers in the game.
On April 26 2014 12:14 Eternalobi wrote: There is nothing I want to say about this patch except its ruining dota. This is just sad, balanced hero got nerfed and imba hero got buffed. I like the idea of keep nerfing over picked heros, it seems like people still pick them no matter what just a bit less maybe, like batrider and darkseer. Instead of buffing heros that are balanced already just no one wants to play them. It will end up being imbalanced in the end. This patch is the perfect example.
This patch is the best thing about dota.
I like this patch from a random pub player perspective. My favorite hero got buffed, like Silencer, Necrophos all these int semi carries. Also huskar just rekts now in pub, pretty bad in competitive still same with ursa. Kunka and LC is like my most picked heros. Everyone is been talking about the KOTL aghs. It could be easily countered by nightstalker. Like really hard. Still imba though.
But this patch will ruin the competitive scene for the viewers. I can see it coming already.
Yeah, honestly, I'm not particularly happy about this one either.
There's a lot of really obnoxious heroes who are now even more obnoxious, like pugna, lich and pubbadon. There's also a lot of annoying heroes who didn't get hit hard enough, like AA, shaman, QW voker and arguably phoenix.
There are some interesting things as well. It's not a terrible patch, but it's nowhere near what I was hoping for.
Can you imagine KotL + Dazzle? The ride literally never ends.
On April 26 2014 12:26 Belisarius wrote: Yeah, honestly, I'm not particularly happy about this one either.
There's a lot of really obnoxious heroes who are now even more obnoxious, like pugna, lich and pubbadon. There's also a lot of annoying heroes who didn't get hit hard enough, like AA, shaman, QW voker and arguably phoenix.
There are some interesting things as well. It's not a terrible patch, but it's nowhere near what I was hoping for.
You don't need to nerf obnoxious heroes to deal with them. You can buff the heroes that counter their strong points instead.
On April 26 2014 12:26 Belisarius wrote: Yeah, honestly, I'm not particularly happy about this one either.
There's a lot of really obnoxious heroes who are now even more obnoxious, like pugna, lich and pubbadon. There's also a lot of annoying heroes who didn't get hit hard enough, like AA, shaman, QW voker and arguably phoenix.
There are some interesting things as well. It's not a terrible patch, but it's nowhere near what I was hoping for.
you dont want to nerf heroes so hard they arent worth picking up
KOTL's buff is pretty noteworthy in the sense that it's a support where you can legitimately get aghanims because of his kotl blast. Lich with aghs is nice but it's just bound to be one of those things where similar to a Lion or especially Tinker's case, theorists will say how much of a game changer itll be but have the patch come out and have it do nothing at all.
People really love overhyping the shit out aghs buffs though but i do think KOTL's upgrade is pretty big.
On April 26 2014 12:04 xAdra wrote: My fave heroes all got buffed..... Lina, KotL, Abaddon and sometimes Venge are fantastic now.
My favourite hero of all time, Phoenix, only got somewhat minor (but definitely needed) nerfs. I imagined much more devastating nerfs on phoenix, but hey, looks like it can continue to net lots of wins for me while making me feel less dirty when using it.
I'm happy! :D EDIT: Does the unobstructed vision for KotL and the heal come from aghs? Or is it inbuilt?
They come from aghs. I think agh before mek now is viable. kotl usually can get decently rich anyway and the bonuses from aghs are just ridonculous. Like a team blind spell, allied summon and mass heal/nuke all the time, and unobstructed vision? most op shit ive seen in a while
RP into chain frost is gonna deal tonnes of damage since they literally have no distance between them
lina's laguna blade that pierce through bkb? wasnt bkb meant to be magic immune? even skills like dismember is not even dealing damage through bkb.. so now the almighty bkb that at least granted magic damage immunity is no longer that viable..
kotl's agha is such a huge buff.. vision, heal.. 75% AOE heal on a low cooldown skill.. say hello to early-mid push sieging..
edit: and also, the big change before the biggest tournament.. so it's not just about being prepared, but the adaptability?
On April 26 2014 12:31 Kuroeeah wrote: And some of these changes strikes me as something coming straight out of League of Legends. Venge and Brew changes are hilarious.
Yeah Brew change seems a little weird to me, doesn't feel very dota. It was always just Gondar's thing because he was an assassin. I'd have preferred a different Brew buff.
On April 26 2014 12:40 kaleidoscope wrote: i think kotl, lina and lich's ulti need rework..
RP into chain frost is gonna deal tonnes of damage since they literally have no distance between them
lina's laguna blade that pierce through bkb? wasnt bkb meant to be magic immune? even skills like dismember is not even dealing damage through bkb.. so now the almighty bkb that at least granted magic damage immunity is no longer that viable..
kotl's agha is such a huge buff.. vision, heal.. 75% AOE heal on a low cooldown skill.. say hello to early-mid push sieging..
edit: and also, the big change before the biggest tournament.. so it's not just about being prepared, but the adaptability?
Are you really implying Lina is broken now with the upgrade? It's not even that good of an item for her. RP chain frost didn't really get improved, it was insane even before the patch.
"Mirror Image now resets the current attack and spell targeting priority" am i the only one who cant really make sense of this? Is this targeted against spells that you use before the mirror image and still hunt down the original one?
Yay, buff to ursas roshing ability. I also needed more tusks and husks and in my games, love the two. /sarcasm
Most other changes are okay. Qop is sick. Kotl/lich aghs might be almost as desirable as AAs. Lich needs a good setup-hero though. I like the pa and void buffs. I think that the blur thing wont change much, everybody gets mkb against her anyways. I feel that some buffs could have been bigger, e.g. sven, tide, drow, lina, brood, am and bloodstone. Quite surprised that darkseer didnt see any change at all, i have seen him only loose in this patch, i feel it's time for a vacuum buff for a change. Also as the players get better, ion shell gets worse.
On April 26 2014 12:44 OutlaW- wrote: Are you really implying Lina is broken now with the upgrade? It's not even that good of an item for her. RP chain frost didn't really get improved, it was insane even before the patch.
i'm just saying that the metagame might change alot for picks with lina, since you cant have a 4Protect1 if your carry is just gonna die so much more easily.. even a bkb is not gonna help your carry in survival
On April 26 2014 12:31 Kuroeeah wrote: And some of these changes strikes me as something coming straight out of League of Legends. Venge and Brew changes are hilarious.
Are you really implying Lina is broken now with the upgrade? It's not even that good of an item for her. RP chain frost didn't really get improved, it was insane even before the patch.
He is kinda right I guess, if I am playing Lina and a Bkb carry is really giving trouble (or I can predict the person to buy bkb) I can just aim for aghs (not difficult with Lina's flash farm abilities) and just zap the guy whenever he pops his bkb. The almighty magic-immune stick is really losing a lot of sheen with so many things blasting right through it
On April 26 2014 12:31 Kuroeeah wrote: And some of these changes strikes me as something coming straight out of League of Legends. Venge and Brew changes are hilarious.
Are you really implying Lina is broken now with the upgrade? It's not even that good of an item for her. RP chain frost didn't really get improved, it was insane even before the patch.
He is kinda right I guess, if I am playing Lina and a Bkb carry is really giving trouble (or I can predict the person to buy bkb) I can just aim for aghs (not difficult with Lina's flash farm abilities) and just zap the guy whenever he pops his bkb. The almighty magic-immune stick is really losing a lot of sheen with so many things blasting right through it
As always with Lina, even after this patch, I'd rather have a Lion on my team every time. Unless we're talking about pubs. I actually really like playing Lina, but being able to deal 600-800 damage someone who buys BKB will probably not make her more useful than Lion. You can always blink hex finger, too. I'm not saying it's a bad change or anything, just that it doesn't suddenly make her overpowered.
On April 26 2014 12:48 Blackfeather wrote: "Mirror Image now resets the current attack and spell targeting priority" am i the only one who cant really make sense of this? Is this targeted against spells that you use before the mirror image and still hunt down the original one?
Yay, buff to ursas roshing ability. I also needed more tusks and husks and in my games, love the two. /sarcasm
Most other changes are okay. Qop is sick. Kotl/lich aghs might be almost as desirable as AAs. Lich needs a good setup-hero though. I like the pa and void buffs. I think that the blur thing wont change much, everybody gets mkb against her anyways. I feel that some buffs could have been bigger, e.g. sven, tide, drow, lina, brood, am and bloodstone. Quite surprised that darkseer didnt see any change at all, i have seen him only loose in this patch, i feel it's time for a vacuum buff for a change.
this is how it worked on W3
and there was a lot of wodota about it, it is a fun mechanic (even though I almost never build manta or play image heroes)
It feels like naga still strong as before, I would like to see a movespeed nerf too
Also, a lot of changes that doesn't change anything like SD agha, seriously? It is cool, it is two purges, but it is 4200 gold, I don't get the point.
It feels weird, just small changes besides from aghanins e venge doesn't feels like a dota patch. Anyways, I think I liked, I hope it is enough to change the must picks at least.
On April 26 2014 12:44 OutlaW- wrote: Are you really implying Lina is broken now with the upgrade? It's not even that good of an item for her. RP chain frost didn't really get improved, it was insane even before the patch.
i'm just saying that the metagame might change alot for picks with lina, since you cant have a 4Protect1 if your carry is just gonna die so much more easily.. even a bkb is not gonna help your carry in survival
Nah, lina is still terrible vs most carries. To get an early aghs would mean that either she gets farm priority or plays mid. Nobody really wants to put her mid in the time of farming mids, so that means that she has a 35 min aghs on average. So you invest 4k gold into an overall mediocre hero to zipp half hp of an enemy carry during bkb. I really dont see why i shouldnt just get a sheep stick instead and have a pick that isnt lina. I dont think she will see any play at all tbh.
Is Lina going to finally be the answer to BKB's every game? Is this the reason why Envy stopped going the item in his Luna? Why go Bane when you now have Lina?
You guys really need to chill out on stuff like this.
If you ever actually got the farm for an Agha on Lina, one-shotting a support before they use any spells/items is in all likelihood more effective than hitting a BKB carry for a chunk of their HP anyway.
On April 26 2014 12:53 OutlaW- wrote: As always with Lina, even after this patch, I'd rather have a Lion on my team every time. Unless we're talking about pubs. I actually really like playing Lina, but being able to deal 600-800 damage someone who buys BKB will probably not make her more useful than Lion. You can always blink hex finger, too. I'm not saying it's a bad change or anything, just that it doesn't suddenly make her overpowered.
well i dont just mean catching someone off guard, but even in team conflicts, the person targeted by the team is so much easier to be brought down.. and with agha, it's going to be roughly 800 points of damage, which is at least 1/3 of any decent lategame carry (w/o hearts/eos/etc)
and my bad, didnt realize there's a 0.2sec delay between each lich bounce..
Well thinking again yea kotl is really broken. Why rush a mek when Agha heals for more.
Lich Agha buff is overrated. His problem was never not enough bounces, but actually getting the right bounces.
I think its always going to be hard to balance bat. Conceptually, this hero is just too good that despite irritations like mana cost nerf, he is still wanted. If you nerf him too hard, he becomes unplayable as he will not be able to perform his role. What I mean is that he is not picked because he has a broken spell like AA. He performs a role that no other hero can match.
On April 26 2014 12:40 kaleidoscope wrote: i think kotl, lina and lich's ulti need rework..
RP into chain frost is gonna deal tonnes of damage since they literally have no distance between them
lina's laguna blade that pierce through bkb? wasnt bkb meant to be magic immune? even skills like dismember is not even dealing damage through bkb.. so now the almighty bkb that at least granted magic damage immunity is no longer that viable..
kotl's agha is such a huge buff.. vision, heal.. 75% AOE heal on a low cooldown skill.. say hello to early-mid push sieging..
edit: and also, the big change before the biggest tournament.. so it's not just about being prepared, but the adaptability?
RP / blackhole into any nuke support aghas (CM w/o aghas, lion aghas, witch doc aghas etc, enigma aghas) already do a fuckton of damage. I can't see an extra 5ish bounces on lich ult being that big a deal.
Lina aghas also not that massive a concern. She's like lich in that she's likely only gonna be getting aghas if she's making kills happen well before it, and it makes her less totally fucked over by a BKB. For the few times she gets it in games that weren't won already, I don't think it'll merit reworking.
Kotl aghas IS insane though, both because it's insane, and because he actually has the tools to do what other supports do in the current meta - I.E. retreat to the woods and stack/farm.
Changes don't seem huge to me. Most of the big ones are aghs-on-support, with KotL being just about the only one who is likely to find the farm for it in the majority of games. If what happened to Crystal Maiden is any indication, Luna will suffer a lot from her nerf. Broodmother may actually be close to workable now. Admiral Bulldog apparently bribed Valve to make LD viable in most games again + Show Spoiler +
jk
. Dazzle should be less popular now that he can't stun; he's basically an alternative Omniknight now. I can see position 3/offlane Abaddon being slightly more popular since his aghs is very good. Silencer's buff isn't as big as it seems since level 4 Curse of the Silent comes pretty late for the low cd to make a huge difference in lane unless he's mid and the agility buff just makes him a little better at his support-into-carry role. Sven buff is pretty hefty. VS buff basically makes her into another aghs Abaddon but without the aghs, which is pretty strong.
Also, does shadow amulet not requiring the user to stand still mean that it's basically just a shadow blade without the attack speed? Nope, I guess "fade" and "invisibility" are different things.
These are extremely high impact changes for anyone above the 'casual' level of play, calling this a small patch is more or less flat out wrong. Huskar and Ursa received a huge boon in their orbs losing orb status...
Nyx receives a nerf yet again, lol.
ZEUS GETS A RIDICULOUS ON-DEMAND INVIS-REVEAL? HOLY SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTT
On April 26 2014 10:40 saksy2 wrote: By far the funniest thing about the Lich change is that you can just stack up bouncing Chain Frosts on magic immune creeps like enemy ancients, to for example insta kill their carry when he comes to farm.
That's a good use of lich ultimates i guess lol. afterall unlimited bounces hahaha, you basically denied ancient farming to the enemy team.
If there's only 1 bouncing around, it's pretty easy for the carry to just tank one bounce and carry it far enough away that it won't bounce back (or use summoned units).
If there's multiple going, one has to wonder how you got to waste multiple Lich ult CDs on their Ancients rather than just winning fights.
And using 2 required that you have 120s with no Lich ulti available.
I can see it be annoying for a team that never dealt with it before, or wasn't paying attention and happen to stumble on it at their Ancients without being aware of it, but there are enough ways to break it that it's not crazy unless you somehow got to waste enough ults on a single set of Ancients that it one-shots people. Even a HoD creep has enough HP to tank 2 (3 if it's a Centaur or Satyr and gets a second or two to regen HP) of them so any less than 3 can be defused with a HoD creep baiting the bounces away.
On April 26 2014 13:32 Shaella wrote: well its only a 60 sec CD at rank 3.
And just 3 could already be incredibly deadly at all levels. It might not kill in a shot but you can't farm with those around. If they give vision, much more so.
Lich is already a great situational support. Now, I think it's become top tier as a defensive/antipush, teamfighting support. Ulti can zone out (force scattering), then FA can make tower kills insanely hard, and then paired up with a nice carry (Void, Spec)...
Super interested to see what EG and Rox come up with. Curious if Alliance liquid and Fnatic can get their mojo back off this patch. Thank god for nyx impale not being blocked by linkens, literally bitched for an hour about that one day
The Agha change doesn't mean shit because even if you were going carry runner, you wouldn't get Agha. A hero with otherwise mediocre carry potential can't afford to use a major item slot on an item with such mediocre stats over a more impactful DPS item.
On April 26 2014 13:30 TheYango wrote: If there's only 1 bouncing around, it's pretty easy for the carry to just tank one bounce and carry it far enough away that it won't bounce back (or use summoned units).
If there's multiple going, one has to wonder how you got to waste multiple Lich ult CDs on their Ancients rather than just winning fights.
It's not about winning the game, it's about sending a message.
The ice armor change is probably the bigger deal, and is easily gonna make him first pick.
Oh the change to Abaddon, that is annoying. I already dislike going against him and now, he will be all the more annoying. The same with Bristle, they decided to buff a hero I hate going against. Just excited to see how the meta changes with these changes. With the qualifiers coming up, it will be a test to see which of the teams adapt the best all the while being innovative.
On April 26 2014 13:30 TheYango wrote: If there's only 1 bouncing around, it's pretty easy for the carry to just tank one bounce and carry it far enough away that it won't bounce back (or use summoned units).
If there's multiple going, one has to wonder how you got to waste multiple Lich ult CDs on their Ancients rather than just winning fights.
It's not about winning the game, it's about sending a message.
The ice armor change is probably the bigger deal, and is easily gonna make him first pick.
Yeah, I sort of value the ice armor change a bit higher. The Agh change, for it to be fully utilized is severely dependent on team makeup. Whereas the armor will be useful regardless of the team makeup.
I'm still confused about the manta change. Does it just mean that if you rightclick a hero before they pop manta, you won't automatically stick on the real one?
Also the real best thing about this patch is that they've removed battlefury from BH's recommendeds.
So what are the relevant, non-Agha buffs? I can think of the Lich FA, Ursa Fury Swipes, Jugg BAT, AM Void (feel this is underrated), Sven base damage, BH Track cast range, Void buffs, Gyro missile, Lesh storm, Lion hex... what else? QoP was buffed, Razor buffed... hmmm I don't see game changers, really. Cept for Lich FA and maybe Track.
QoP's buff is actually a fairly big deal in lane, because the CD reduction to 16s was a large part of why rank 2 was situationally gotten in lane (15.1s duration 16s CD basically locks people out of ever using Salves without getting off the lane completely). Having that 16s CD at rank 1 is definitely very significant.
On April 26 2014 13:54 Belisarius wrote: I'm still confused about the manta change. Does it just mean that if you rightclick a hero before they pop manta, you won't automatically stick on the real one?
Correct. Rather, any orders targeted on the real hero will be canceled when Manta is activated.
I'm surprised this wasn't listed as a bug fix because this is actually the Warcraft 3 intended behavior. Having stuns queued up on the main hero before they Manta still always land on the main hero after the split defeats a lot of the purpose of the item.
On April 26 2014 14:03 fuzzy_panda wrote: Can someone explain what the shadow amulet change means? I still don't understand it
Currently, the way Shadow Amulet works is that after activation, if you stand still you become invisible after 1.5 seconds. However, you must stand still or lose the invisibility.
After the change, you are allowed to move during the 1.5s before the invisibility activates without canceling the effect. If you move after the invisibility sets in it still breaks, though.
1. "X Marks The Spot can now last twice as long on allied heroes" I dont think people realize how broken this is especially when people do the 1 1 3 build that Mushi does. Basically you can slow siege with ANY hero now (the way EternalEgo and Autism_2000 were doing it vs DK with Chen Blinkz @ MLG but you dont get TPed back to the fountain). Meaning you can do that CONSTANTLY ????? and INSTANTLY bail out the hero if he is in danger. What about a DK push line-up with safe lane Kunka in it? 2. "Aghanim's Scepter Laguna Blade damage goes through magic immunity" Seriously??? A support Lina cant get it anyways but with THIS RANGE and Dragon Slave wave clearing you can do fairly well vs most of the other mids. + ET? + Veil of Discord? vs the popular squishy carries like Luna/Mirana. 3. Zeus = moving Gem ? and this buffs Lightning Bolt's cast range with 250. That Veldt guy picks Zeus A LOT and always goes Blink Dagon build. He has a ridiculous win rate with it too. It has proven that it is viable in the highest MMR matches but no1 tries it in the pro scene yet. Hope this buff changes that. 4. This makes Silencer the best attribute gain hero in the game. I think IceFraud wants to return LightOfHeaven carry Silencer back. 5. Venge back to the suicide swaps? 6. Really nice Euls change. Drastically improving the exort Invoker. I actually see people bypassing the midas and rushing Euls now. 7. Ursas rushing mask of death is going to make the pubs unplayable.
Is the kotl buff really that big? I see it as a significantly worse aghs upgrade than NS, and pros rarely get that. I'm not sure which of the three parts people are most excited about, but they all seem meh to me.
On April 26 2014 14:12 hacklebeast wrote: Is the kotl buff really that big? I see it as a significantly worse aghs upgrade than NS, and pros rarely get that. I'm not sure which of the three parts people are most excited about, but they all seem meh to me.
Kotl and NS are totally different heroes, though. NS is a rightclicker who needs to be ahead in order to perform his function, so spending 4k on an item that does little for his up-front power is highly situational.
Kotl, on the other hand, is an item-independent support who can farm very quickly. He's much more likely to acquire and use the item than NS, even if you consider his upgrade to be weaker.
On April 26 2014 14:12 hacklebeast wrote: Is the kotl buff really that big? I see it as a significantly worse aghs upgrade than NS, and pros rarely get that. I'm not sure which of the three parts people are most excited about, but they all seem meh to me.
Well first of all wave of light is now an even more ridiculous push spell. Kotl can just drop it and move around, and it heals your whole team. A mek heals 250, this heals 375. Every 10 secs. That's really good. Also it unlocks his other 2 ulti spells permanently. So you can always blinding light enemies to reposition them or blind them. And call teammates whenever. Those two buffs alone is really good, the daylight unrestricted vision is just icing on the cake really.
I <3 lich but I don't see how the aghs buff is a game changer or that much of a buff at all. If his aghs ult lasted enough to hit through all bounces you prolly won the fight anyway, so the bonus is just an overkill. The only bonus I see is that now u can throw it into a creepwave aswell if they are pushing you uphill for example, to delay.. otherwise not much of a buff
On April 26 2014 14:12 hacklebeast wrote: Is the kotl buff really that big? I see it as a significantly worse aghs upgrade than NS, and pros rarely get that. I'm not sure which of the three parts people are most excited about, but they all seem meh to me.
Well first of all wave of light is now an even more ridiculous push spell. Kotl can just drop it and move around, and it heals your whole team. A mek heals 250, this heals 375. Every 10 secs. That's really good. Also it unlocks his other 2 ulti spells permanently. So you can always blinding light enemies to reposition them or blind them. And call teammates whenever. Those two buffs alone is really good, the daylight unrestricted vision is just icing on the cake really.
You compare it favorably to a mek, but I think the heal is worst than a mek. It's a mek that has a 5 second chaneling time that is almost never going to hit the entire team (its like hitting all your allies with a boat if the boat had to be channeled first). Presumably you are playing a 5 position kotl, so aghs shouldn't be out until after the 30 min mark. After that point illuminate is already irrelevant in team fights so 75% of an illiminate is even less relevant.
I don't know if I have ever played kotl and thought "I wish my ult was off cool down right now". If it was a permanent form change for dk,lycan, or tb, then it would be interesting. But for kotl, i really don't see me getting more than 1 extra recall/blind a game that I wouldn't have been able to already.
On April 26 2014 14:27 TomatoBisque wrote: I'm pretty sure this Brewmaster change actually owns
Do we know how it functions with his ult?
IE: Does it apply to the Agh's upgraded fire spirit? Does he get the buff after coming out of Primal Split?
Yes to both from my testing.
Newly spawned illusions also get the buff, which is most relevant with illusion runes but is still nice.
I'm mostly thinking for lane control. Imagine being in a 1v1 lane where every wave, this guy walks up to you, claps and crits you off the wave since you just lost half your HP and did maybe 100 damage back to him, then he goes and cleans up the wave, bottles once, and does it again next wave.
On April 26 2014 14:12 hacklebeast wrote: Is the kotl buff really that big? I see it as a significantly worse aghs upgrade than NS, and pros rarely get that. I'm not sure which of the three parts people are most excited about, but they all seem meh to me.
Well first of all wave of light is now an even more ridiculous push spell. Kotl can just drop it and move around, and it heals your whole team. A mek heals 250, this heals 375. Every 10 secs. That's really good. Also it unlocks his other 2 ulti spells permanently. So you can always blinding light enemies to reposition them or blind them. And call teammates whenever. Those two buffs alone is really good, the daylight unrestricted vision is just icing on the cake really.
You compare it favorably to a mek, but I think the heal is worst than a mek. It's a mek that has a 5 second chaneling time that is almost never going to hit the entire team (its like hitting all your allies with a boat if the boat had to be channeled first). Presumably you are playing a 5 position kotl, so aghs shouldn't be out until after the 30 min mark. After that point illuminate is already irrelevant in team fights so 75% of an illiminate is even less relevant.
I don't know if I have ever played kotl and thought "I wish my ult was off cool down right now". If it was a permanent form change for dk,lycan, or tb, then it would be interesting. But for kotl, i really don't see me getting more than 1 extra recall/blind a game that I wouldn't have been able to already.
If you're having a sustained push you aren't hitting the heal in a fight or anything (and even if you were only hitting the heal in a fight it would be pretty damn good). For example if you're seiging high ground, you have a heal you can use 4x in the time you could use mek once and it even heals for more than mek. You just have to tell your allies to stand somewhere and then they get massive heals every 10 seconds. Dunno, I think it might not have AS big of an effect that most people think it will, but we can only theorycraft right now
Man can't wait to build skadi on ursa or huskar now.
Also the interaction with chain frost and creep waves is actually pretty huge. For example with a disruptor you catch two heroes and a creep wave in a kinetic field you can get them ALL with chain frost instead of maybe only getting one or only creeps. Aghs makes chain frost so much easier to set up and so much more lethal. Also the comeback factor on lich is going to be huge like if the enemy team is far ahead and commits to a rax and decides they can eat all ten bounces with a pipe plus luck on creep wave, now they simply can't and have to back off until it kills the creep wave.
On April 26 2014 14:12 hacklebeast wrote: Is the kotl buff really that big? I see it as a significantly worse aghs upgrade than NS, and pros rarely get that. I'm not sure which of the three parts people are most excited about, but they all seem meh to me.
Well first of all wave of light is now an even more ridiculous push spell. Kotl can just drop it and move around, and it heals your whole team. A mek heals 250, this heals 375. Every 10 secs. That's really good. Also it unlocks his other 2 ulti spells permanently. So you can always blinding light enemies to reposition them or blind them. And call teammates whenever. Those two buffs alone is really good, the daylight unrestricted vision is just icing on the cake really.
You compare it favorably to a mek, but I think the heal is worst than a mek. It's a mek that has a 5 second chaneling time that is almost never going to hit the entire team (its like hitting all your allies with a boat if the boat had to be channeled first). Presumably you are playing a 5 position kotl, so aghs shouldn't be out until after the 30 min mark. After that point illuminate is already irrelevant in team fights so 75% of an illiminate is even less relevant.
I don't know if I have ever played kotl and thought "I wish my ult was off cool down right now". If it was a permanent form change for dk,lycan, or tb, then it would be interesting. But for kotl, i really don't see me getting more than 1 extra recall/blind a game that I wouldn't have been able to already.
Even if everything you say is true (most of it isn't if you run KotL as a 4 support, I don't know why anyone would use him as a 5), this upgrade theoretically makes KotL one of the best pushers and tower pushers simply by virtue of Illuminate healing allied units.
With the new manta can you dodge any projectile if you manta after the projectile is launched? If so, maybe people will start getting manta on tinker again! It seems like it could fulfill a similar role to linken's with lots of pushing utility as well.
On April 26 2014 15:52 fezvez wrote: Like clockwork, Rod of Atos receives a buff nearly every patch.
This item is sincerely extremely good on most INT heroes, I really don't get which midgame item is really better
Because pros decided that there is no point in building RoA because who the hell needs 25 mana cost 1200 range 60% slow on an item that gives mystic staff worth of int and ~1.3 vit boosters worth of HP.
On April 26 2014 15:52 fezvez wrote: Like clockwork, Rod of Atos receives a buff nearly every patch.
This item is sincerely extremely good on most INT heroes, I really don't get which midgame item is really better
Isn't it in a semi-awkward spot?
Position 5 heroes are looking at force/blink/ghost as the holy trifecta of "This way I won't get fucking raped in fights". Also, at 1600 - 2150 gold, they're coming quite a bit sooner than the 3100 gold of Atos.
On the other side, core int heroes are looking at sheep / euls / aghas / necro / orchid / dagon all for different reasons in different situations, but usually in the same farm-space as an Atos, and with more obviously impactful actives. Sure a 4 second 60% slow on a 10 second cooldown with 1200 range sounds batshit, but when it's put up against a 400 damage nuke or 5 second silence / 30% damage amp or any of these other actives, it becomes pretty easy to see where you'd use the other actives, and the slow doesn't look as impressive.
I guess the truth is that you'd be using the Atos EVERYWHERE, but I still have such a hard time finding out how to fit it in without lamenting the delayed sheep or whatever.
I think Sven and Beastmaster are gonna be seen a bit more, their laning got buffed quite a bit especially Sven's. With Sven's recent armour buff both these heroes have ridiculous base stats now. And you can't deny their great utility.
Also Razor might make a comeback since he has increased gain on the stat he needs the most, and the level 4 purge is just vile.
Support zues legit in pubs? I had ridiculous win rates on that hero even as a non-farming core in the past. Time to revisit that hero.
Lion is like my staple support hero after the rubick telekinesis cd nerf. The hex cd buff will be nice since i still like to rush 4-4-0-1.
Most underrated buff is probably the venge. Aura effect stays somehow whether you are dead or alive. Swaps for initiating instead of saving allies will be viable now.
kotl aghs buff is legit while lich aghs buff is meh tbh.
icefrog seems really intent on making supports get aghs, but really its too expensive of an item for them to consider when you are highly likely to die in fights first unless you get something as legit as kotl's one.
i think ember needed a harder nerf though, something like a 8s cd for max level SoF but his early game nerf from chains was pretty sensible i guess.
i'm actually curious how would bloodstone interact with necrolyte's ulti now that it also increases respawn duration.
ursa with orb would actually be pretty sick, carry ursa with satanic bfly abyssal would be able to manfight pretty much anyone though if you already had such items you probably won the game..
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
not true at all. terror isnt that reliant on his strength gain. he is reliant on his retardedly ridiculous armor . and with good positioning he is even less reliant on. meta isnt fine at all. the things he gets form it is way to retarded in the early game. with a proper lane support / team composition its just a WAY too strong damage output on a range hero in early levels.
how does his strength gain matter that much (of course it matters a little bit) when u just get a bkb and then stand there with magic immunity and like over 15 base armor? manta bkb skadi is enough strength i would say
Can anyone explain the TA change? I know that if you manually detonate traps TA doesn't have to do the animation - saving you about 1 second while chasing which is actually pretty huge, is it something to do with that?
On April 26 2014 17:59 The_Australian wrote: Can anyone explain the TA change? I know that if you manually detonate traps TA doesn't have to do the animation - saving you about 1 second while chasing which is actually pretty huge, is it something to do with that?
Yeah. She no longer has the animation when detonating traps from the hero, which is gonna smooth her chasing out a lot.
Very disappointed with brew, CK and earth spirit buffs, naga and lycan nerf and no invoker change. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see this patch changing pick priority so much. Anyway those calls are so hard to do and I'm almost sure it will change a variety of things in progames and pubs should be better with nerfed fotm heroes.
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
not true at all. terror isnt that reliant on his strength gain. he is reliant on his retardedly ridiculous armor . and with good positioning he is even less reliant on. meta isnt fine at all. the things he gets form it is way to retarded in the early game. with a proper lane support / team composition its just a WAY too strong damage output on a range hero in early levels.
how does his strength gain matter that much (of course it matters a little bit) when u just get a bkb and then stand there with magic immunity and like over 15 base armor? manta bkb skadi is enough strength i would say
Because he explodes from anything. With this you are forced to go stuff like point booster-pt to even pretend to have enough hp. Because 682 HP at lvl11 without items. He will fucking explode to 3 nukes. and armor scales off of HP, surprise, no HP, not that much effect from armor. Not to mention that actual stuff that was broken on him was reflection being ridiculous lvl1 spell even with shitty cast range and cast point.
KOTL change is seriously WTF. Everything else is alright if a little weird, but there are always naysayers who think the next patch will kill x hero/the competitive scene, somehow it works out fine
Fixed a bug with Ancient Apparition's Ice Blast where self-damage would cause suicide on shattering, instead of awarding the kill to Ancient Apparition
Interesting
Attack Speed now always continually adjusts based on the latest modifications applied to the unit
Is this the attack speed bug everyone was talking about?
On April 26 2014 17:59 The_Australian wrote: Can anyone explain the TA change? I know that if you manually detonate traps TA doesn't have to do the animation - saving you about 1 second while chasing which is actually pretty huge, is it something to do with that?
Yeah. She no longer has the animation when detonating traps from the hero, which is gonna smooth her chasing out a lot.
I actually enjoyed the trap selection as a way of differentiating yourself from sub-par TA players, but i suppose the change makes sense.
On April 26 2014 17:59 The_Australian wrote: Can anyone explain the TA change? I know that if you manually detonate traps TA doesn't have to do the animation - saving you about 1 second while chasing which is actually pretty huge, is it something to do with that?
Yeah. She no longer has the animation when detonating traps from the hero, which is gonna smooth her chasing out a lot.
I actually enjoyed the trap selection as a way of differentiating yourself from sub-par TA players, but i suppose the change makes sense.
As a sub-par TA player myself I fully support the change. :D
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
not true at all. terror isnt that reliant on his strength gain. he is reliant on his retardedly ridiculous armor . and with good positioning he is even less reliant on. meta isnt fine at all. the things he gets form it is way to retarded in the early game. with a proper lane support / team composition its just a WAY too strong damage output on a range hero in early levels.
how does his strength gain matter that much (of course it matters a little bit) when u just get a bkb and then stand there with magic immunity and like over 15 base armor? manta bkb skadi is enough strength i would say
Because he explodes from anything. With this you are forced to go stuff like point booster-pt to even pretend to have enough hp. Because 682 HP at lvl11 without items. He will fucking explode to 3 nukes. and armor scales off of HP, surprise, no HP, not that much effect from armor. Not to mention that actual stuff that was broken on him was reflection being ridiculous lvl1 spell even with shitty cast range and cast point.
because a lvl 11 terrorblade has no items and stays on 682 hp... by that time you can have pt + drums +ulti orb or a point booster squeezed in like you said. now show me how 3 nukes can kill that before he can get his ulti off.the point booster may be a bit weaker start for him compared to others but skadi is so fucking good on him, who cares? while his survivability is a strong factor for the way the hero works, its not his problem as i said. it wouldnt be that bad if he would just not deal that ridiculous amounts of damage while he survives for a longer time period. i think the right way to nerf him would be to remove meta bonus damage from his basedamage and treat it like normal +damage so the illusions damage output would be reduced while he himself remains a strong rightclicker in the early game. also since he already has a good basedamage and normally only goes for stat items (except bkb damage wise and a late crit/mkb) his illusions would still deal a fair amount of damage
sure this way he is easier to kill of course but not that easier as you think. except you can catch him solo all the time and cc chain him to death,yeah then u can get him with your 3 simple nukes and a few rightclicks. which is not the way dota works all the time since its a team game and not a terrorblade solo game
On April 26 2014 13:43 TheYango wrote: The Agha change doesn't mean shit because even if you were going carry runner, you wouldn't get Agha. A hero with otherwise mediocre carry potential can't afford to use a major item slot on an item with such mediocre stats over a more impactful DPS item.
Aghanim's Scepter Focus Fire damage reduction decreased from -50/-40/-30 to -30/-15/0, and no longer has special rules for procs
how is having no damage reduction from ult + no proc restrictions on an item like the now fixed mjolnir not a significant damage boost. I'm thinking all you need to rek things is maelstrom > ags > mkb.
Keeper of the Light Added Aghanim's Scepter upgrade: Provides permanent Spirit Form. Additionally, the following effects are active during the day: Keeper of the Light gains unobstructed vision and Illuminate heals allies for 75% of the damage values
Gandalf too stronk.
Aghanim's Scepter Chain Frost no longer has a bounce limit
Icefraud, are you high?
Aghanim's Scepter Laguna Blade damage goes through magic immunity
AHAHAHAHA Lina every game now <3
Night Stalker Darkness now also affects the vision of buildings
Time to batten down the hatches.
Blur evasion chance increased from 20/25/30/40 to 20/30/40/50
Remember the Dota shittier digest with the unlucky Ursa? Yeah.....
Heat Seeking Missile is no longer blocked by Ethereal
Icefraud stop ruining the logical interactions of skills in this game about a greek god fighting Satan with help of Gandalf and a six-legged William Shakespear hero.
When Vengeful Spirit is slain, her killer is inflicted with a negative Vengeance Aura, which decreases the damage of her killer and their nearby allies, until she revives
FINALLY SOME VENGEANCE
Town Portal Scroll Added an option to require a halt command to in order to cancel a Town Portal Scroll
YESSSSS! Hundreds of TP scrolls down the drain, I finally no longer have to pretend I really wanted to take the scenic route to that T1 anyway. <3 Icefrog <3
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
not true at all. terror isnt that reliant on his strength gain. he is reliant on his retardedly ridiculous armor . and with good positioning he is even less reliant on. meta isnt fine at all. the things he gets form it is way to retarded in the early game. with a proper lane support / team composition its just a WAY too strong damage output on a range hero in early levels.
how does his strength gain matter that much (of course it matters a little bit) when u just get a bkb and then stand there with magic immunity and like over 15 base armor? manta bkb skadi is enough strength i would say
I don't think you get why he was strong. TB was strong because of how easy it was too get kills with meta + reflection and snowball. Basically if he got in range to slow you died because that a 5 second slow meant unless you have a natural escape spell you just died. If you did to initiate om him, he would slow you for 5 seconds and escape for often than not. With the Nerf to reflection, you have to decide whether to skill images or slow after metamorphosis instead of just taking 1 point in reflect for all the benefits and killing potential. just think about laning against him with a support that has a decent stun. He slows you, you stun for 2 seconds. by the time the stun wears off, his slow would have worn off too. You can escape.
also tb is a low hp, high armour hero that does well because of his ability to do dps early. Without armour he's basically just free money. Have a lane with good nuke/armour reduction. elder titan for example is really, REALLY good against him. Also, just buy a medallion and shit all over him. I've said it before in the qq thread that his slow was the most ridiculous thing about him because it's like a diff blade slow at lvl 1. Add that to meta damage and the guy is the most efficient early dps'er in the very early game in Dota. Take away his lockdown (which is basically how he closes the gap) in the early game and to me he just seems like any other agi carry. think of am maxing mana burn with 1 point in blink. Not very scary until he gets items.
TB nerf is perfect, if you leave him alone he'll still be a monster but at least now it's possible to do anything about him before he gets huge. In 6.80 your only real option (unless TB or his team was bad and let you kill him over and over) was to leave him alone and hope that your cores had enough AOE to deal.
On April 26 2014 13:43 TheYango wrote: The Agha change doesn't mean shit because even if you were going carry runner, you wouldn't get Agha. A hero with otherwise mediocre carry potential can't afford to use a major item slot on an item with such mediocre stats over a more impactful DPS item.
Aghanim's Scepter Focus Fire damage reduction decreased from -50/-40/-30 to -30/-15/0, and no longer has special rules for procs
how is having no damage reduction from ult + no proc restrictions on an item like the now fixed mjolnir not a significant damage boost. I'm thinking all you need to rek things is maelstrom > ags > mkb.
Because a carry runner doesn't win games off going carry items from the start, it wins games using items with higher midgame impact (usually Orchid or Meka) to get an item advantage, then using a farming item like Mjollnir to make the transition into big lategame damage items. By the time you're considering Agha, most of the other items competing with it have a larger impact than 30% damage during Focus Fire.
On April 26 2014 23:51 bardtown wrote: Omniknight silencer tower siege. 7 seconds of complete immunity, 10 seconds physical immunity. Burn the tower, run away.
If we're talking purely the effect duration, Refresher already did more than that for both heroes, and was already a legit lategame item choice for both heroes.
Something I really didn't get about this patch. If you bolt on the ground and there is two units at 250 range are you hitting both or the most nearby one?
Most of the changes are good i like the nerfs to lycan naga ember.I think invo terror should had been nerfed more. I dont like the changes to LC brood huskar and tuskar i think they didnt deserve any buff. Also dont pick kotl if you are not going aga , omni s ulti 10 secs with aga pretty strong now.
Excited for Zeus buffs. The .2 second cast time is very good for him. The Melee range ground bolt is kind of neat but I think the cast time change will help more overall with his casting / vision problems.
Lots of aghs changes on heroes who should never have farm for an aggha. Sry kotl and omni, but that 4k has to come from somewhere.
I think biggest change is ursa. Wisp ursa pretty fierce now. Ti4 = bear time
Also, jakiro. This guy is always on the verge of being a stable competitive hero. Maybe now?
On April 27 2014 01:15 ahswtini wrote: The aghs changes just add a lot more versatility. It shouldn't make them any less viable if you weren't intending to build an aghs on them
Yeah, but it also adds a lot of pub stars in my queue who skip wards and Mek and force
On April 27 2014 01:05 ahw wrote: Excited for Zeus buffs. The .2 second cast time is very good for him. The Melee range ground bolt is kind of neat but I think the cast time change will help more overall with his casting / vision problems.
Lots of aghs changes on heroes who should never have farm for an aggha. Sry kotl and omni, but that 4k has to come from somewhere.
I think biggest change is ursa. Wisp ursa pretty fierce now. Ti4 = bear time
Also, jakiro. This guy is always on the verge of being a stable competitive hero. Maybe now?
On April 27 2014 01:05 ahw wrote: Excited for Zeus buffs. The .2 second cast time is very good for him. The Melee range ground bolt is kind of neat but I think the cast time change will help more overall with his casting / vision problems.
Lots of aghs changes on heroes who should never have farm for an aggha. Sry kotl and omni, but that 4k has to come from somewhere.
I think biggest change is ursa. Wisp ursa pretty fierce now. Ti4 = bear time
Also, jakiro. This guy is always on the verge of being a stable competitive hero. Maybe now?
If Visage can rush an Aghs so can KotL
Yeah, isn't KotL basically the single easiest support in the game to farm with?
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
not true at all. terror isnt that reliant on his strength gain. he is reliant on his retardedly ridiculous armor . and with good positioning he is even less reliant on. meta isnt fine at all. the things he gets form it is way to retarded in the early game. with a proper lane support / team composition its just a WAY too strong damage output on a range hero in early levels.
how does his strength gain matter that much (of course it matters a little bit) when u just get a bkb and then stand there with magic immunity and like over 15 base armor? manta bkb skadi is enough strength i would say
I don't think you get why he was strong. TB was strong because of how easy it was too get kills with meta + reflection and snowball. Basically if he got in range to slow you died because that a 5 second slow meant unless you have a natural escape spell you just died. If you did to initiate om him, he would slow you for 5 seconds and escape for often than not. With the Nerf to reflection, you have to decide whether to skill images or slow after metamorphosis instead of just taking 1 point in reflect for all the benefits and killing potential. just think about laning against him with a support that has a decent stun. He slows you, you stun for 2 seconds. by the time the stun wears off, his slow would have worn off too. You can escape.
also tb is a low hp, high armour hero that does well because of his ability to do dps early. Without armour he's basically just free money. Have a lane with good nuke/armour reduction. elder titan for example is really, REALLY good against him. Also, just buy a medallion and shit all over him. I've said it before in the qq thread that his slow was the most ridiculous thing about him because it's like a diff blade slow at lvl 1. Add that to meta damage and the guy is the most efficient early dps'er in the very early game in Dota. Take away his lockdown (which is basically how he closes the gap) in the early game and to me he just seems like any other agi carry. think of am maxing mana burn with 1 point in blink. Not very scary until he gets items.
about 2 seconds (from any decent lane support) stun (even more if trilaned) plus 2.5 seconds of a very strong slow. thats still very easy kills especially with the ridiculous early damage he has with metamorphosis. and where did you get the idea from i had problems with the slow change i was just not satisfied with the strength gain nerf which like i said should have been replaced with a change of how metamorphosis works. and how dare you compare a terrorblade with a manaburn maxed AM or some other rightclicker. noone comes even close to the damage output terrorblade has with level 7-10 except mb an ursa who has an enemy that is perma stunned for 3 seconds but ursa is in general weaker AND melee so you cant compare them anyway. terroblade with meta 4 on level 7 without a single item has 150 damage plus 50 damage for each illusion thats 250 damage with 2 illusions....ON LEVEL 7 with ZERO items. 279 damage on level 8 still with no items. thats about 350 damage on level 10 with not a single item and with 550 range. but ye he is clearly like any other agi hero...oh wait a minute
I really wish some of the C9 would run Omni now, as he could enable ridiculous strats (*cough*EE-MoM*cough*). He'll suck early compared to the more solid sustainers (Dazzle, Chen, Tree), but I really think that he can (finally) fit in the meta.
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
not true at all. terror isnt that reliant on his strength gain. he is reliant on his retardedly ridiculous armor . and with good positioning he is even less reliant on. meta isnt fine at all. the things he gets form it is way to retarded in the early game. with a proper lane support / team composition its just a WAY too strong damage output on a range hero in early levels.
how does his strength gain matter that much (of course it matters a little bit) when u just get a bkb and then stand there with magic immunity and like over 15 base armor? manta bkb skadi is enough strength i would say
I don't think you get why he was strong. TB was strong because of how easy it was too get kills with meta + reflection and snowball. Basically if he got in range to slow you died because that a 5 second slow meant unless you have a natural escape spell you just died. If you did to initiate om him, he would slow you for 5 seconds and escape for often than not. With the Nerf to reflection, you have to decide whether to skill images or slow after metamorphosis instead of just taking 1 point in reflect for all the benefits and killing potential. just think about laning against him with a support that has a decent stun. He slows you, you stun for 2 seconds. by the time the stun wears off, his slow would have worn off too. You can escape.
also tb is a low hp, high armour hero that does well because of his ability to do dps early. Without armour he's basically just free money. Have a lane with good nuke/armour reduction. elder titan for example is really, REALLY good against him. Also, just buy a medallion and shit all over him. I've said it before in the qq thread that his slow was the most ridiculous thing about him because it's like a diff blade slow at lvl 1. Add that to meta damage and the guy is the most efficient early dps'er in the very early game in Dota. Take away his lockdown (which is basically how he closes the gap) in the early game and to me he just seems like any other agi carry. think of am maxing mana burn with 1 point in blink. Not very scary until he gets items.
about 2 seconds (from any decent lane support) stun (even more if trilaned) plus 2.5 seconds of a very strong slow. thats still very easy kills especially with the ridiculous early damage he has with metamorphosis. and where did you get the idea from i had problems with the slow change i was just not satisfied with the strength gain nerf which like i said should have been replaced with a change of how metamorphosis works. and how dare you compare a terrorblade with a manaburn maxed AM or some other rightclicker. noone comes even close to the damage output terrorblade has with level 7-10 except mb an ursa who has an enemy that is perma stunned for 3 seconds but ursa is in general weaker AND melee so you cant compare them anyway. terroblade with meta 4 on level 7 without a single item has 150 damage plus 50 damage for each illusion thats 250 damage with 2 illusions....ON LEVEL 7 with ZERO items. 279 damage on level 8 still with no items. thats about 350 damage on level 10 with not a single item and with 550 range. but ye he is clearly like any other agi hero...oh wait a minute
Should he be like any other agi hero? His actual lategame isn't that strong anyways.
In my honest opinion his strength mostly came from his ridiculous early game (slow + meta). He was able to kill most offlaners with only one support, even when they have an escape spell. From there you can get an easy radi and skyrocketing in farm with super strong illus. Also his lategame was mostly powered by super strong splittpushing illusions. Both those issues have been nerfed pretty hard.
I think he might even be a bit weak now, but only time will tell.
On April 27 2014 01:05 ahw wrote: Excited for Zeus buffs. The .2 second cast time is very good for him. The Melee range ground bolt is kind of neat but I think the cast time change will help more overall with his casting / vision problems.
Lots of aghs changes on heroes who should never have farm for an aggha. Sry kotl and omni, but that 4k has to come from somewhere.
I think biggest change is ursa. Wisp ursa pretty fierce now. Ti4 = bear time
Also, jakiro. This guy is always on the verge of being a stable competitive hero. Maybe now?
? farming with kotl takes no time. He can stack and farm the jungle and farm the lane super easily. If anything he's going to be the easiest support to get aghs on, maybe bar visage.
Psionic Trap sub-ability now has the same cast point as the ability on the trap itself[?] I really dislike this change. Obviously any1 good enough already used this to the maximum potential this just removes one small quirk that good players had to use for their advantage. Yes dota should be about knowledge and abuse.
On April 27 2014 06:25 njt7 wrote: Psionic Trap sub-ability now has the same cast point as the ability on the trap itself[?] I really dislike this change. Obviously any1 good enough already used this to the maximum potential this just removes one small quirk that good players had to use for their advantage. Yes dota should be about knowledge and abuse.
very blizzardish to make game easier for weaker players, i dislike it =/
On April 27 2014 06:25 njt7 wrote: Psionic Trap sub-ability now has the same cast point as the ability on the trap itself[?] I really dislike this change. Obviously any1 good enough already used this to the maximum potential this just removes one small quirk that good players had to use for their advantage. Yes dota should be about knowledge and abuse.
very blizzardish to make game easier for weaker players, i dislike it =/
eh dota 2 is already mechanically a lot easier to manage than wc3 dota
It seems like that until you realize that War3 had better multi-unit selection, and this patch also removes the game automatically swapping back to your hero when your selected unit dies, meaning that pretty much any pattern of select trap->activate trap->switch back to controlling hero is a nightmare (pre-patch you'd switch back automatically, and in War3 you could select both units/tab more easily).
It's not an issue of knowledge and abuse, it's the DotA 2 engine making abusing that knowledge annoying to use. I'm ok with it because with the other change to units dying under your selection, not doing this would be a noticeable nerf to TA in the hands of even experienced TA players because of how shitty DotA 2's multi-unit selection is.
On April 27 2014 06:35 TheYango wrote: It seems like that until you realize that War3 had better multi-unit selection, and this patch also removes the game automatically swapping back to your hero when your selected unit dies, meaning that pretty much any pattern of select trap->activate trap->switch back to controlling hero is a nightmare (pre-patch you'd switch back automatically, and in War3 you could select both units/tab more easily).
It's not an issue of knowledge and abuse, it's the DotA 2 engine making abusing that knowledge annoying to use. I'm ok with it because with the other change to units dying under your selection, not doing this would be a noticeable nerf to TA in the hands of even experienced TA players because of how shitty DotA 2's multi-unit selection is.
You can solve that by putting your hero in a control group I suppose. That's what I tend to do, but that's mostly a result of having played too much RTS in my life.
Yeah my gaming up until Dota has always been RTS's. It's one thing I have the most difficulty explaining to league players who want to play Dota. That you can select units that aren't your champion, and how control groups make it easy.
On April 27 2014 06:35 TheYango wrote: It seems like that until you realize that War3 had better multi-unit selection, and this patch also removes the game automatically swapping back to your hero when your selected unit dies, meaning that pretty much any pattern of select trap->activate trap->switch back to controlling hero is a nightmare (pre-patch you'd switch back automatically, and in War3 you could select both units/tab more easily).
It's not an issue of knowledge and abuse, it's the DotA 2 engine making abusing that knowledge annoying to use. I'm ok with it because with the other change to units dying under your selection, not doing this would be a noticeable nerf to TA in the hands of even experienced TA players because of how shitty DotA 2's multi-unit selection is.
You can solve that by putting your hero in a control group I suppose. That's what I tend to do, but that's mostly a result of having played too much RTS in my life.
There is a key for selecting your own hero that you can bind to whatever. No need to keep a group bind for it, works the same I guess, except once needing to group your hero.
On April 26 2014 10:21 calippo wrote: expected a lot more from a patch that is likely the last big one before ti4.
Totally agree, slightly dissapointed but we always cant get what we want. I feel like this patch is definetly going to suite Team DK the most and Alliance.
On April 27 2014 06:35 TheYango wrote: It seems like that until you realize that War3 had better multi-unit selection, and this patch also removes the game automatically swapping back to your hero when your selected unit dies, meaning that pretty much any pattern of select trap->activate trap->switch back to controlling hero is a nightmare (pre-patch you'd switch back automatically, and in War3 you could select both units/tab more easily).
It's not an issue of knowledge and abuse, it's the DotA 2 engine making abusing that knowledge annoying to use. I'm ok with it because with the other change to units dying under your selection, not doing this would be a noticeable nerf to TA in the hands of even experienced TA players because of how shitty DotA 2's multi-unit selection is.
You can solve that by putting your hero in a control group I suppose. That's what I tend to do, but that's mostly a result of having played too much RTS in my life.
There is a key for selecting your own hero that you can bind to whatever. No need to keep a group bind for it, works the same I guess, except once needing to group your hero.
well and that it isn't burned into your muscle memory like control groups to me haha.
On April 26 2014 10:21 calippo wrote: expected a lot more from a patch that is likely the last big one before ti4.
Totally agree, slightly dissapointed but we always cant get what we want. I feel like this patch is definetly going to suite Team DK the most and Alliance.
I have heard a lot of people saying they are happy with the current patch. So any large changes would have been strange. Will probably need the last heroes to be added and things to shake up from that before we get large changes again. Or totally new heroes. Risk we get a good enough balance and game becomes fully cyclical inside almost the same patch over and over.
On April 26 2014 09:39 MrCon wrote: Ho and I don't know why they buffed tiny, I know it's a rescale but it's still a buff for late game tiny, 2 seconds passive stun is way too good imo, should be a ministun.
My god, ice armor on buildings. A 30% slow on melee units and 9 armor. Almost all of the summon-able units do melee damage. That is damn good. Plus the movement speed slow. Lich is the anti push support for sure.
On April 27 2014 06:35 TheYango wrote: It seems like that until you realize that War3 had better multi-unit selection, and this patch also removes the game automatically swapping back to your hero when your selected unit dies, meaning that pretty much any pattern of select trap->activate trap->switch back to controlling hero is a nightmare (pre-patch you'd switch back automatically, and in War3 you could select both units/tab more easily).
It's not an issue of knowledge and abuse, it's the DotA 2 engine making abusing that knowledge annoying to use. I'm ok with it because with the other change to units dying under your selection, not doing this would be a noticeable nerf to TA in the hands of even experienced TA players because of how shitty DotA 2's multi-unit selection is.
You can solve that by putting your hero in a control group I suppose. That's what I tend to do, but that's mostly a result of having played too much RTS in my life.
There is a key for selecting your own hero that you can bind to whatever. No need to keep a group bind for it, works the same I guess, except once needing to group your hero.
That key was in the original WC3 as well. In fact because of that key and the 'select all other units' key I was able to play Brood/LD/Visage considerably easier than most new players.
Still my micro could be better, but for how bad I was at RTS games it's not the worst micro ever.
On April 27 2014 09:35 Laserist wrote: Ember still broken, I am sorry.
At what point are you just going to shut up and stop whining? Every fucking post from you is the same QQ bullshit.
It feels like that might be a legit 4-5th item choice on him, yeah? He is fairly item agnostic as it is. I mean, naked boots, wand, urn, wards, and you're exceedingly useful. I generally grab a Euls for 4th -- does that become aghs now? Or is this just the rambling of a 3.3k trencher? (Likely the latter.)
Nope. Second Purge is bad. If you want the damage, get Dagon instead. Much cheaper. You never want the damage, anyway. You should be getting more utility. By the time you would get an Aghs online, extra damage really isn't worth it, and the rest of its effect isn't valuable enough to double up on.
On April 27 2014 10:26 Hagen0 wrote: You can purge two Infernals.
Unfortunatelly that's not quite so useful, SD's purge doesn't kill the golems like Diffusal does.
On April 27 2014 10:17 Acritter wrote: Nope. Second Purge is bad. If you want the damage, get Dagon instead. Much cheaper. You never want the damage, anyway. You should be getting more utility. By the time you would get an Aghs online, extra damage really isn't worth it, and the rest of its effect isn't valuable enough to double up on.
You can purge someone for 10s, regardless of BKB. Against one of those carries you just dance around killing everyone else, it may as well be worth it. It's not likely you are getting a 4th-5th item on SD anyway though.
On April 27 2014 06:35 TheYango wrote: It seems like that until you realize that War3 had better multi-unit selection, and this patch also removes the game automatically swapping back to your hero when your selected unit dies, meaning that pretty much any pattern of select trap->activate trap->switch back to controlling hero is a nightmare (pre-patch you'd switch back automatically, and in War3 you could select both units/tab more easily).
It's not an issue of knowledge and abuse, it's the DotA 2 engine making abusing that knowledge annoying to use. I'm ok with it because with the other change to units dying under your selection, not doing this would be a noticeable nerf to TA in the hands of even experienced TA players because of how shitty DotA 2's multi-unit selection is.
You can solve that by putting your hero in a control group I suppose. That's what I tend to do, but that's mostly a result of having played too much RTS in my life.
There is a key for selecting your own hero that you can bind to whatever. No need to keep a group bind for it, works the same I guess, except once needing to group your hero.
Both of these still always add at least one action to activating a trap and reselecting your hero. In War3 you could select them both and easily tab to the trap and activate it, returning control to your hero after cuz it's still part of your selection when the trap dies.
In DotA 2, both tabbing and multi-selecting units is clunky sometimes, which means that the process of activating a trap manually is harder and more unreliable solely because the engine is shittier at handling multiple unit control. This didn't matter prior to 6.81 because selecting the trap and activating it would automatically pass control back to your hero, but now you either have to add the extra action of reselecting your hero or deal with DotA 2's poor multi-unit control. The change to TAs traps just take this indirect nerf thanks to the DotA 2 engine out of the picture.
I think people are forgetting if a ton of other heroes gets buffed and a hero is untouched it's kinda like he got nerfed since his/her power relative to other heroes decreases. Which means even if a hero gets a "small" nerf as long as everyone else is getting buffed that's a big deal. Applies to both mirana and ember this patch and a good example from last patches is dark seer where he got small nerfs but people just stopped using him eventually cause they discovered other heroes. Will probably happen again until those heroes are "re-discovered" again.
On April 27 2014 06:35 TheYango wrote: It seems like that until you realize that War3 had better multi-unit selection, and this patch also removes the game automatically swapping back to your hero when your selected unit dies, meaning that pretty much any pattern of select trap->activate trap->switch back to controlling hero is a nightmare (pre-patch you'd switch back automatically, and in War3 you could select both units/tab more easily).
It's not an issue of knowledge and abuse, it's the DotA 2 engine making abusing that knowledge annoying to use. I'm ok with it because with the other change to units dying under your selection, not doing this would be a noticeable nerf to TA in the hands of even experienced TA players because of how shitty DotA 2's multi-unit selection is.
You can solve that by putting your hero in a control group I suppose. That's what I tend to do, but that's mostly a result of having played too much RTS in my life.
There is a key for selecting your own hero that you can bind to whatever. No need to keep a group bind for it, works the same I guess, except once needing to group your hero.
Both of these still always add at least one action to activating a trap and reselecting your hero. In War3 you could select them both and easily tab to the trap and activate it, returning control to your hero after cuz it's still part of your selection when the trap dies.
In DotA 2, both tabbing and multi-selecting units is clunky sometimes, which means that the process of activating a trap manually is harder and more unreliable solely because the engine is shittier at handling multiple unit control. This didn't matter prior to 6.81 because selecting the trap and activating it would automatically pass control back to your hero, but now you either have to add the extra action of reselecting your hero or deal with DotA 2's poor multi-unit control. The change to TAs traps just take this indirect nerf thanks to the DotA 2 engine out of the picture.
But doesn't giving an order, ie, a move or an attack command will automatically reselect your hero ? Even with the new patch ?
On April 27 2014 09:24 Plansix wrote: My god, ice armor on buildings. A 30% slow on melee units and 9 armor. Almost all of the summon-able units do melee damage. That is damn good. Plus the movement speed slow. Lich is the anti push support for sure.
its really too good... i hope this patch isnt some turtle BS
On April 27 2014 09:24 Plansix wrote: My god, ice armor on buildings. A 30% slow on melee units and 9 armor. Almost all of the summon-able units do melee damage. That is damn good. Plus the movement speed slow. Lich is the anti push support for sure.
its really too good... i hope this patch isnt some turtle BS
I would worry about it slightly, but I feel like there are a lot of good ways to push right now. Only time can tell, but the split pushers weren't hit that hard and there were a few pushing supports that got big buffs (enigma comes to mind for me personally).
That is a lot of armor though. Maybe we'll see more tanky cores that build AC or something...
On April 27 2014 13:41 Wingblade wrote: No death prophet ultimate nerf?
That ult has doing work for years if i remember so no. No nerf. It is also the only reason why you would pick krobelus(DP). Since the hero is shit with a nerfed ultimate.
On April 27 2014 01:05 ahw wrote: Excited for Zeus buffs. The .2 second cast time is very good for him. The Melee range ground bolt is kind of neat but I think the cast time change will help more overall with his casting / vision problems.
Lots of aghs changes on heroes who should never have farm for an aggha. Sry kotl and omni, but that 4k has to come from somewhere.
I think biggest change is ursa. Wisp ursa pretty fierce now. Ti4 = bear time
Also, jakiro. This guy is always on the verge of being a stable competitive hero. Maybe now?
? farming with kotl takes no time. He can stack and farm the jungle and farm the lane super easily. If anything he's going to be the easiest support to get aghs on, maybe bar visage.
Kotl can farm the jungle fairly well, that's true.
Visage farms aggs by being a beast in team fights and getting hero kills.
Kotl is not like visage farm-wise
Edit: if kotl farms the lane then you got problems
On April 26 2014 17:13 MotherOfRunes wrote: wtf is this terrorblade change. there is a metamorphosis change needed and not reflection
Meta is fine, terrorblade is already a meta reliant hero in teamfights. It just makes him rely on it more, because melee creep with 15+1.4 strength is not really scary at all.
not true at all. terror isnt that reliant on his strength gain. he is reliant on his retardedly ridiculous armor . and with good positioning he is even less reliant on. meta isnt fine at all. the things he gets form it is way to retarded in the early game. with a proper lane support / team composition its just a WAY too strong damage output on a range hero in early levels.
how does his strength gain matter that much (of course it matters a little bit) when u just get a bkb and then stand there with magic immunity and like over 15 base armor? manta bkb skadi is enough strength i would say
I don't think you get why he was strong. TB was strong because of how easy it was too get kills with meta + reflection and snowball. Basically if he got in range to slow you died because that a 5 second slow meant unless you have a natural escape spell you just died. If you did to initiate om him, he would slow you for 5 seconds and escape for often than not. With the Nerf to reflection, you have to decide whether to skill images or slow after metamorphosis instead of just taking 1 point in reflect for all the benefits and killing potential. just think about laning against him with a support that has a decent stun. He slows you, you stun for 2 seconds. by the time the stun wears off, his slow would have worn off too. You can escape.
also tb is a low hp, high armour hero that does well because of his ability to do dps early. Without armour he's basically just free money. Have a lane with good nuke/armour reduction. elder titan for example is really, REALLY good against him. Also, just buy a medallion and shit all over him. I've said it before in the qq thread that his slow was the most ridiculous thing about him because it's like a diff blade slow at lvl 1. Add that to meta damage and the guy is the most efficient early dps'er in the very early game in Dota. Take away his lockdown (which is basically how he closes the gap) in the early game and to me he just seems like any other agi carry. think of am maxing mana burn with 1 point in blink. Not very scary until he gets items.
about 2 seconds (from any decent lane support) stun (even more if trilaned) plus 2.5 seconds of a very strong slow. thats still very easy kills especially with the ridiculous early damage he has with metamorphosis. and where did you get the idea from i had problems with the slow change i was just not satisfied with the strength gain nerf which like i said should have been replaced with a change of how metamorphosis works. and how dare you compare a terrorblade with a manaburn maxed AM or some other rightclicker. noone comes even close to the damage output terrorblade has with level 7-10 except mb an ursa who has an enemy that is perma stunned for 3 seconds but ursa is in general weaker AND melee so you cant compare them anyway. terroblade with meta 4 on level 7 without a single item has 150 damage plus 50 damage for each illusion thats 250 damage with 2 illusions....ON LEVEL 7 with ZERO items. 279 damage on level 8 still with no items. thats about 350 damage on level 10 with not a single item and with 550 range. but ye he is clearly like any other agi hero...oh wait a minute
my point is, if he has no way to close the gap he can't hit you...
On April 27 2014 09:24 Plansix wrote: My god, ice armor on buildings. A 30% slow on melee units and 9 armor. Almost all of the summon-able units do melee damage. That is damn good. Plus the movement speed slow. Lich is the anti push support for sure.
its really too good... i hope this patch isnt some turtle BS
I would worry about it slightly, but I feel like there are a lot of good ways to push right now. Only time can tell, but the split pushers weren't hit that hard and there were a few pushing supports that got big buffs (enigma comes to mind for me personally).
That is a lot of armor though. Maybe we'll see more tanky cores that build AC or something...
im not too concerned about pushing, but rather how farm distribution is spread out. i am not a big fan of how some teams would run their supports as a defensive unit and have the cores provide the brunt of damage and map control by getting farmed (treant, dazzle). i am a big fan of even farm distributions through aggression and lich currently isnt a hero that particularly excels at gaining worth through aggression, especially one that frost armors buildings.
Frost armor doesn't come online that early either. At the moment his nuke and sacrifice are taken earlier, with maybe an early point in amor at lvl 8. It'll be interesting to see if armor will get maxed earlier now to deal with splitpushers.
I wanna know if carry Lina could be a thing. The ult is super strong with aghanims, 900 range, 925 damage at level 11, doesn't care about bkb. You just instantly kill a guy it seems and from a safe distance. Fiery soul is also not a bad steroid skill, she farms pretty quickly with her nukes, can counterpush, should be decent in lane with the imba attack range and 2 nukes early on. I could see her doing work.
On April 27 2014 16:44 Laurens wrote: Frost armor doesn't come online that early either. At the moment his nuke and sacrifice are taken earlier, with maybe an early point in amor at lvl 8. It'll be interesting to see if armor will get maxed earlier now to deal with splitpushers.
I know of people who sometimes don't bother maxing the nuke to lvl 4 before sacrifice and then they get points in armour because they didn't value the scaling damage in those games over sacrifice XP and frost armour being a bitch to deal with. I guess having 9 armour on towers might be a big deal around lvl 11.
On April 27 2014 19:36 Torte de Lini wrote: I don't understand Bristlebacks' change
Before it was first ulti stack is way bigger than subsequent, now all are the same, outcome is that at low amount of stacks he is slower, around 3-5 stacks he becomes faster.
I think everyone hyping up the Frost Armor changes is forgetting that Frost Armor, unlike Living Armor, is NOT GLOBAL CAST! This totally changes the dynamic of the hero. Instead of it being run-around-and-cast-spell-when-needed, it becomes babysit-tower-instead-of-doing-things. Lich can slow down pushes, to be sure, but he can't stop them and he needs to be quite close to the tower (and thus vulnerable) in in order to do so. KotL has much better counterpush potential. Finally, the big thing about Living Armor is that it heals. It can reverse the effort the enemy team puts in. Frost Armor only delays the inevitable.
It's really not that big a buff. The only time where it's a remotely big deal is during high-ground sieges with teams of very close power, and those situations are handled by sending illusions in to chip away at the tower anyway. He might be slightly better with Tree as backup, but that sacrifices so much disable that I doubt it's a serious option.
If you're not going to go around countering tower pushes by the time you have enough levels in Frost Armor to make it worthwhile what else are you going to do as Lich anyway
I think the biggest buff was to Juggernaut. Since his hits between ulti hits is based on attack speed this makes his ulti stronger as well as making him a better right clicker in combat.
On April 27 2014 20:48 Firebolt145 wrote: If you're not going to go around countering tower pushes by the time you have enough levels in Frost Armor to make it worthwhile what else are you going to do as Lich anyway
Standing around with your Mek being ready to heal your team instead of standing behind a tower to feed kills to their pickoff mechanisms? I dunno, it just seems really dumb.
On April 27 2014 20:48 Firebolt145 wrote: If you're not going to go around countering tower pushes by the time you have enough levels in Frost Armor to make it worthwhile what else are you going to do as Lich anyway
Standing around with your Mek being ready to heal your team instead of standing behind a tower to feed kills to their pickoff mechanisms? I dunno, it just seems really dumb.
From my observations teams tend to try to defend towers.
On April 27 2014 23:28 Alaric wrote: Isn't the Mjollnir fix pretty important for several heroes who bought it in DotA but not in DotA 2?
yes and it also had kind of small anti-synergy with itself in dota 2 since mjollnir gives so much +AS but a lot of that AS went to waste from the chain lightning aspect as it couldn't procc again anyway if you had already a procc bouncing
On April 27 2014 20:46 Acritter wrote: I think everyone hyping up the Frost Armor changes is forgetting that Frost Armor, unlike Living Armor, is NOT GLOBAL CAST! This totally changes the dynamic of the hero. Instead of it being run-around-and-cast-spell-when-needed, it becomes babysit-tower-instead-of-doing-things. Lich can slow down pushes, to be sure, but he can't stop them and he needs to be quite close to the tower (and thus vulnerable) in in order to do so. KotL has much better counterpush potential. Finally, the big thing about Living Armor is that it heals. It can reverse the effort the enemy team puts in. Frost Armor only delays the inevitable.
Lich's armor lasts 40 seconds and predicting which lanes are the weakest to pushes are obvious. He won't be as immobile as you envision he would need to be to keep 2 towers buffed up.
Patch won't go live till tonight or even Monday at the earliest. Valve is slightly better about this kind of thing and making sure not to patch during LANs.
Curious to see if we get the b/c version after TI4 qualifiers, and also curious if they'll add heroes back into the pool during that time.
On April 27 2014 20:48 Firebolt145 wrote: If you're not going to go around countering tower pushes by the time you have enough levels in Frost Armor to make it worthwhile what else are you going to do as Lich anyway
It also softens the strength of one of Lich's biggest weaknesses as an off-lane hero (he can deny creeps but couldn't really stop the enemy team from pushing so the deny would just be helping the enemy team push if they just tried to rush down your T1). Having an anti-push skill makes him generally stronger as an off-laner because it shores up his greatest weakness in that lane.
On April 28 2014 01:13 Elizar wrote: Why would anyone buff Ursa? He is strong ennough already. Just had a game where even a Viper couldnt slow him down enough.
Is that a joke? He's like the easiest melee carry to kite in the game. Buy some force staffs.
On April 28 2014 01:13 Elizar wrote: Why would anyone buff Ursa? He is strong ennough already. Just had a game where even a Viper couldnt slow him down enough.
Is that a joke? He's like the easiest melee carry to kite in the game. Buy some force staffs.
On April 28 2014 01:13 Elizar wrote: Why would anyone buff Ursa? He is strong ennough already. Just had a game where even a Viper couldnt slow him down enough.
Is that a joke? He's like the easiest melee carry to kite in the game. Buy some force staffs.
Blink dagger and abyssal/vyse is good combination of items for da cubz.
On April 28 2014 01:13 Elizar wrote: Why would anyone buff Ursa? He is strong ennough already. Just had a game where even a Viper couldnt slow him down enough.
Is that a joke? He's like the easiest melee carry to kite in the game. Buy some force staffs.
Ursa is really strong in low level pubs, not so much in competitive games.
edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
I don't know how I feel about addition of pseudo-random chance. The rare 99 procs in a row, while sucking for the other team, are always exciting and fun to watch. It was just the personality of DOTA2 as a game that sometimes these statistical improbabilities just happen, which add a lot of excitement to every game.
On April 28 2014 04:52 Gaius Longinus wrote: I don't know how I feel about addition of pseudo-random chance. The rare 99 procs in a row, while sucking for the other team, are always exciting and fun to watch. It was just the personality of DOTA2 as a game that sometimes these statistical improbabilities just happen, which add a lot of excitement to every game.
If you're referring to Axe, it makes his jungling more consistent.
On April 27 2014 01:05 ahw wrote: Excited for Zeus buffs. The .2 second cast time is very good for him. The Melee range ground bolt is kind of neat but I think the cast time change will help more overall with his casting / vision problems.
Lots of aghs changes on heroes who should never have farm for an aggha. Sry kotl and omni, but that 4k has to come from somewhere.
I think biggest change is ursa. Wisp ursa pretty fierce now. Ti4 = bear time
Also, jakiro. This guy is always on the verge of being a stable competitive hero. Maybe now?
? farming with kotl takes no time. He can stack and farm the jungle and farm the lane super easily. If anything he's going to be the easiest support to get aghs on, maybe bar visage.
Kotl can farm the jungle fairly well, that's true.
Visage farms aggs by being a beast in team fights and getting hero kills.
Kotl is not like visage farm-wise
Edit: if kotl farms the lane then you got problems
With the Aghs addition, it's a strong reason to run KotL + 1 in the offlane. What DK did in Starladder can be easily replicated with better offlaners than Lycan.
What DK did wasn't exactly a proper offlane. It's more like when Navi dodges an agressive trilane and puts Xboct in the "offlane" with a Spectre. They put their proper offlane hero (Puck) in the safelane and did an "agressive safelane". It's not something that can be easily replicated because it relies on your opponents trying to punish your safelane and you winning the mindgame. They did that specifically because Lycan is a weak laner.
If anything, Kotl benefits a lot from the safelane jungle, specially if you are considering him getting an Aghs. It's not like he will be getting the offlane farm in a duo lane and he can't rely on getting the jungle creeps on Dire side if the opposing safe lane isn't that weak.
Lich is a hero that may benefit a lot from the change as an offlane hero.
On April 28 2014 05:20 SKC wrote: What DK did wasn't exactly a proper offlane. It's more like when Navi dodges an agressive trilane and puts Xboct in the "offlane" with a Spectre. They put their proper offlane hero (Puck) in the safelane and did an "agressive safelane". It's not something that can be easily replicated because it relies on your opponents trying to punish your safelane and you winning the mindgame. They did that specifically because Lycan is a weak laner.
If anything, Kotl benefits a lot from the safelane jungle, specially if you are considering him getting an Aghs. It's not like he will be getting the offlane farm in a duo lane and he can't rely on getting the jungle creeps on Dire side if the opposing safe lane isn't that weak.
Lich is a hero that may benefit a lot from the change as an offlane hero.
That was my point. Lycan isn't a great offlaner and the lanes themselves were suspect. EG would've fared better if zai rotated down to bottom to put pressure on Mushi. He just fed Eidolons to Wolves + Illuminate spam whenever he tried to protect the tower. KotL + 1 works way better in the Radiant offlane when the offlaner is legit. Chakram Magic lets the offlaner get away with too much while skipping early mana regen items.
He can easily disrupt Dire pulls towards the big camp with Illuminate spam: it's 2000 range from level 1.
The point is that if the offlaner is legit then EG wouldn't do that strat. It was designed specifically to counter the Lycan. Zai himself said he should have stayed bottom, but that's besides the point. I was saying it's not a strat that should become more common because of the Aghs buff. DK only did that because they saw EG's plan and countered it, and so cannot be easily replicated. It relies on your opponents doing something very similar to what EG did. That doesn't happen all the time, much less if your carry is a better laner, and if you manage to counter their strat that well, the Aghs buff is meaningless.
It worked because DK could bully the safelane with just 2 heroes, since EG did a 1-2-1+jungle setup. That's not as easy to do most of the time.
On April 28 2014 05:37 SKC wrote: The point is that if the offlaner is legit then EG wouldn't do that strat. It was designed specifically to counter the Lycan. Zai himself said he should have stayed bottom, but that's besides the point. I was saying it's not a strat that should become more common because of the Aghs buff. DK only did that because they saw EG's plan and countered it, and so cannot be easily replicated. It relies on your opponents doing something very similar to what EG did. That doesn't happen all the time, much less if your carry is a better laner, and if you manage to counter their strat that well, the Aghs buff is meaningless.
It worked because DK could bully the safelane with just 2 heroes, since EG did a 1-2-1+jungle setup. That's not as easy to do most of the time.
What DK did at Starladder is irrelevant to how the dual lane actually works with most offlaners. I brought it up as an example since most people will only recognize the concept from that particular game. I mean FFS, iceiceice was maxing out Howl first.
The Aghs addition to KotL doesn't make the idea viable; it already worked fine prior to the patch. It gives more incentive to do it since now there's an item that KotL wants to get besides Force Staff/Mek. His item independence has always prevented him from getting any type of farm priority unlike current Sand King/Shadow Shaman.
The first game between Alliance and C9 in DH yesterday was a decent example of what a dual offlane can do. C9 expected a solo offlane AB but got a disastrous matchup in Ember + Dazzle vs solo storm. Solo safe storm can do absolutely nothing at level one aside from getting completely zoned out by the Dazzle and once the lane was pulled back Ember's freefarm was more or less guaranteed with Storm having to resort to the jungle.
On April 28 2014 01:13 Elizar wrote: Why would anyone buff Ursa? He is strong ennough already. Just had a game where even a Viper couldnt slow him down enough.
Is that a joke? He's like the easiest melee carry to kite in the game. Buy some force staffs.
Ursa is really strong in low level pubs, not so much in competitive games.
On April 28 2014 01:13 Elizar wrote: Why would anyone buff Ursa? He is strong ennough already. Just had a game where even a Viper couldnt slow him down enough.
Is that a joke? He's like the easiest melee carry to kite in the game. Buy some force staffs.
Ursa is really strong in low level pubs, not so much in competitive games.
You clearly haven't seen Mushi's Ursa at TI3.
I saw mushi pick ursa at mlg and dk had to make a press release saying "no really, we super weren't trying to throw the game." And no one belived them.
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
MoM?? cant you guys think out of the box? i say you stay with vladmirs and then transition into desolator. the amout of dmg will be insane. mom makes him too squishy. you cant take MoM as a sole item anyways, as you have to pair it with bkb in a serious game. so its theoretically no 2k item, its 5,6k.
On April 28 2014 15:48 Aelfric wrote: I see offlane lich becoming really viable after this. Deny xp and staying in the lane is not extremely hard with spams. Maybe can even rush aghs.
so you are blind.
lich offlane has a very big flaw in this current meta. this also comes from his creepdenying.
if there is a lich solo offlane. he might get exp via creep denyal, but this is also his downfall, because the enemys will just push. he cant do shit against prople that just push his tower, which is even easier because he helps you to push with sacrifice. also: have you ever seen lich ulti bounce more that 2 times in a competetive game? no you didnt. thats why is dosent matter how many bounced this ultimate can have at maximum.
just to make sure this is also mentioned: +8/9 amor on the tower will not do anything against this fact. it will only slow them down by 1 creepwave. maxbe 2.
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
MoM?? cant you guys think out of the box? i say you stay with vladmirs and then transition into desolator. the amout of dmg will be insane. mom makes him too squishy. you cant take MoM as a sole item anyways, as you have to pair it with bkb in a serious game. so its theoretically no 2k item, its 5,6k.
On April 28 2014 15:48 Aelfric wrote: I see offlane lich becoming really viable after this. Deny xp and staying in the lane is not extremely hard with spams. Maybe can even rush aghs.
so you are blind.
lich offlane has a very big flaw in this current meta. this also comes from his creepdenying.
if there is a lich solo offlane. he might get exp via creep denyal, but this is also his downfall, because the enemys will just push. he cant do shit against prople that just push his tower, which is even easier because he helps you to push with sacrifice. also: have you ever seen lich ulti bounce more that 2 times in a competetive game? no you didnt. thats why is dosent matter how many bounced this ultimate can have at maximum.
Why would you have to call him blind just because of that? Lich already IS a fine offlaner and will continue to be post patch too. And while its true he might be weak against pushes, that goes for lots of popular offlaners.
His problem is rather that he doesnt have enough impact to be worth a #3 position slot. Sacrifice doesnt do anything past laning (which also complicates his skill build since you want sacrifice for lane dominance but past laning you want all pts to be spent into Q/W). Frost armor is nice and all but doesnt win fights. Rest is just damage, with the ult being quite unreliable. But no stun and no other team utility. All in all theres a lot better #3 positions for your team, but if you solely look at what he can accomplish in the offlane first say 10min of a game hes better than a lot of curent offlaners. But thats also when his strength falls off. Hes a lane winner and not much beyond that.
I do agree the aghs buff is a bit silly though. That wont change anything. If you could make it bounce 10 times it already was an amazing ulti. But yea, it will very rarely bounce 10 times on important targets, let alone >10.
Well… How many times a Lich ult bounces is more a question of what your other teammates offer to keep enemies in place?
Lich + Treant… Lich + Faceless Void… Lich + Tide... Lich + Warlock… On its own it is a pretty weak ultimate but when comboed with some big ae-stun/slow it becomes really scary. As soon as these other heroes come back in fashion, Lich will look more viable too. It is a bit like Witchdocs stun… In many situations you would trade it for any other stun, but in the right situation it is the best stun in the game ^^.
I doubt that the Aghs buff will do much for Lich, getting the full amount of bounces is like getting a perfect 5 man blackhole or RP… If it happens you probably just won the game right there (and your opponents screwed up big time) ^^.
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
MoM?? cant you guys think out of the box? i say you stay with vladmirs and then transition into desolator. the amout of dmg will be insane. mom makes him too squishy. you cant take MoM as a sole item anyways, as you have to pair it with bkb in a serious game. so its theoretically no 2k item, its 5,6k.
On April 28 2014 15:48 Aelfric wrote: I see offlane lich becoming really viable after this. Deny xp and staying in the lane is not extremely hard with spams. Maybe can even rush aghs.
so you are blind.
lich offlane has a very big flaw in this current meta. this also comes from his creepdenying.
if there is a lich solo offlane. he might get exp via creep denyal, but this is also his downfall, because the enemys will just push. he cant do shit against prople that just push his tower, which is even easier because he helps you to push with sacrifice. also: have you ever seen lich ulti bounce more that 2 times in a competetive game? no you didnt. thats why is dosent matter how many bounced this ultimate can have at maximum.
just to make sure this is also mentioned: +8/9 amor on the tower will not do anything against this fact. it will only slow them down by 1 creepwave. maxbe 2.
You can always spam your first skill thanks to sacrifice. And you don't have to have a late game farmer carry every single game. You might get a mid game fighter team and get lich offlane and pull creeps to tier 2 when the push comes. Yes his ulti is unreliable but pros do combinations really well so combining his ulti with something like rp or chrono or maybe even vacuum isn't impossible either.
i just pointed out the early because thats just the way things start to go in the wrong direction in every game, if your enemys get such an early tower advantage.
pushing strats just wont care about an iceamor being on the tower, as they usually work with some minions that tank the tower while you just dive them. thats how it is now too, you just die under the tower if you stay and the whole oppenets team comes for your tower with lycan howl and maybe an ember or whatever.... they just wont care about that increased amor of the tower, because the defending team cant hope to stand its ground because of your damage anyways.
---
gyro-changes will make him a very viable trilane carry again! <3 especially this
Fixed overhead indicator for Gyrocopter's Homing Missile showing for enemy players
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
MoM?? cant you guys think out of the box? i say you stay with vladmirs and then transition into desolator. the amout of dmg will be insane. mom makes him too squishy. you cant take MoM as a sole item anyways, as you have to pair it with bkb in a serious game. so its theoretically no 2k item, its 5,6k.
On April 28 2014 15:48 Aelfric wrote: I see offlane lich becoming really viable after this. Deny xp and staying in the lane is not extremely hard with spams. Maybe can even rush aghs.
so you are blind.
lich offlane has a very big flaw in this current meta. this also comes from his creepdenying.
if there is a lich solo offlane. he might get exp via creep denyal, but this is also his downfall, because the enemys will just push. he cant do shit against prople that just push his tower, which is even easier because he helps you to push with sacrifice. also: have you ever seen lich ulti bounce more that 2 times in a competetive game? no you didnt. thats why is dosent matter how many bounced this ultimate can have at maximum.
just to make sure this is also mentioned: +8/9 amor on the tower will not do anything against this fact. it will only slow them down by 1 creepwave. maxbe 2.
You can always spam your first skill thanks to sacrifice. And you don't have to have a late game farmer carry every single game. You might get a mid game fighter team and get lich offlane and pull creeps to tier 2 when the push comes. Yes his ulti is unreliable but pros do combinations really well so combining his ulti with something like rp or chrono or maybe even vacuum isn't impossible either.
Lich could grab some xp with boots first on offlane but so does all offlaners, once the ennemies have boots too it's the easiest tower dive. Besides getting ulti on lich is nice but no way near as useful than on clock, timber, centaur, BH who are all harder to kill except for BH. Tbh sacrifice is already fucking op in pubs, I wish they would not buff a boring hero as much when they barely improve melee strength carries outside of tiny who is already the most picked out of this pool...
I really don't see much benefit of orb effect on ursa except you won't have to buy the full vlad to sustain and orb of venom in lane. Hex and abyssal will remain the superior choices late game and midgame you'll usually want other stuff like dagger and BKB. Sure it will improve his lategame but you will still want to end before I guess, or maybe in combinations with those boring mid farmer.
My wishlist would be agha on jugg allowing him to right click during bladefury but maybe he would be op though I doubt it as it's still a 24 sec cd.
Uhm.. There are buffs to just about every melee-carry that could need one in this patch? Save Slardar.. god knows why Slardar isn’t getting a bit more love (+a graphical rework).
How many Str-HARD-Carries are there even in the game? Tiny and... Just about all others feel more like midgame/semi-carries (as would Tiny if not for Aghs)?
In other news: 6.90 will have Craggy Exterior stunning for 5 seconds when facing towards Tiny and Lina will have 1100 Range :D.
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
MoM?? cant you guys think out of the box? i say you stay with vladmirs and then transition into desolator. the amout of dmg will be insane. mom makes him too squishy. you cant take MoM as a sole item anyways, as you have to pair it with bkb in a serious game. so its theoretically no 2k item, its 5,6k.
On April 28 2014 15:48 Aelfric wrote: I see offlane lich becoming really viable after this. Deny xp and staying in the lane is not extremely hard with spams. Maybe can even rush aghs.
so you are blind.
lich offlane has a very big flaw in this current meta. this also comes from his creepdenying.
if there is a lich solo offlane. he might get exp via creep denyal, but this is also his downfall, because the enemys will just push. he cant do shit against prople that just push his tower, which is even easier because he helps you to push with sacrifice. also: have you ever seen lich ulti bounce more that 2 times in a competetive game? no you didnt. thats why is dosent matter how many bounced this ultimate can have at maximum.
just to make sure this is also mentioned: +8/9 amor on the tower will not do anything against this fact. it will only slow them down by 1 creepwave. maxbe 2.
You can always spam your first skill thanks to sacrifice. And you don't have to have a late game farmer carry every single game. You might get a mid game fighter team and get lich offlane and pull creeps to tier 2 when the push comes. Yes his ulti is unreliable but pros do combinations really well so combining his ulti with something like rp or chrono or maybe even vacuum isn't impossible either.
Lich could grab some xp with boots first on offlane but so does all offlaners, once the ennemies have boots too it's the easiest tower dive. Besides getting ulti on lich is nice but no way near as useful than on clock, timber, centaur, BH who are all harder to kill except for BH. Tbh sacrifice is already fucking op in pubs, I wish they would not buff a boring hero as much when they barely improve melee strength carries outside of tiny who is already the most picked out of this pool...
I really don't see much benefit of orb effect on ursa except you won't have to buy the full vlad to sustain and orb of venom in lane. Hex and abyssal will remain the superior choices late game and midgame you'll usually want other stuff like dagger and BKB. Sure it will improve his lategame but you will still want to end before I guess, or maybe in combinations with those boring mid farmer.
My wishlist would be agha on jugg allowing him to right click during bladefury but maybe he would be op though I doubt it as it's still a 24 sec cd.
Please just make the omnislash better than sleight of fist.
It's just too stupid that a non-ultimate with the same function does a better job than the ultimate that does the same shit. Pretty shit icefrog i hope that amphibian realizes that.
Decrease more cd with aghs or something. There is almost no area that omnislash is better than sleight of fist in the lategame.
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
MoM?? cant you guys think out of the box? i say you stay with vladmirs and then transition into desolator. the amout of dmg will be insane. mom makes him too squishy. you cant take MoM as a sole item anyways, as you have to pair it with bkb in a serious game. so its theoretically no 2k item, its 5,6k.
On April 28 2014 15:48 Aelfric wrote: I see offlane lich becoming really viable after this. Deny xp and staying in the lane is not extremely hard with spams. Maybe can even rush aghs.
so you are blind.
lich offlane has a very big flaw in this current meta. this also comes from his creepdenying.
if there is a lich solo offlane. he might get exp via creep denyal, but this is also his downfall, because the enemys will just push. he cant do shit against prople that just push his tower, which is even easier because he helps you to push with sacrifice. also: have you ever seen lich ulti bounce more that 2 times in a competetive game? no you didnt. thats why is dosent matter how many bounced this ultimate can have at maximum.
just to make sure this is also mentioned: +8/9 amor on the tower will not do anything against this fact. it will only slow them down by 1 creepwave. maxbe 2.
You can always spam your first skill thanks to sacrifice. And you don't have to have a late game farmer carry every single game. You might get a mid game fighter team and get lich offlane and pull creeps to tier 2 when the push comes. Yes his ulti is unreliable but pros do combinations really well so combining his ulti with something like rp or chrono or maybe even vacuum isn't impossible either.
Lich could grab some xp with boots first on offlane but so does all offlaners, once the ennemies have boots too it's the easiest tower dive. Besides getting ulti on lich is nice but no way near as useful than on clock, timber, centaur, BH who are all harder to kill except for BH. Tbh sacrifice is already fucking op in pubs, I wish they would not buff a boring hero as much when they barely improve melee strength carries outside of tiny who is already the most picked out of this pool...
I really don't see much benefit of orb effect on ursa except you won't have to buy the full vlad to sustain and orb of venom in lane. Hex and abyssal will remain the superior choices late game and midgame you'll usually want other stuff like dagger and BKB. Sure it will improve his lategame but you will still want to end before I guess, or maybe in combinations with those boring mid farmer.
My wishlist would be agha on jugg allowing him to right click during bladefury but maybe he would be op though I doubt it as it's still a 24 sec cd.
Please just make the omnislash better than sleight of fist.
It's just too stupid that a non-ultimate with the same function does a better job than the ultimate that does the same shit. Pretty shit icefrog i hope that amphibian realizes that.
Decrease more cd with aghs or something. There is almost no area that omnislash is better than sleight of fist in the lategame.
Why would you compare omnislash to SoF? Omnislash does a ton of nuke damage (2k-3k at lvl 16 with aghs, plus auto attacks), while SOF damage is dependant on enemy positioning and having battlefury and some damage items.
On April 28 2014 03:29 Surprise.820 wrote: edit: This post isn't specifically in reply to the above, I'm just rambling about spectator perspectives for the sake of it.
He still gets a niche pick every so often in pro-games, I don't know why people are always so keen to forget this. There's obviously a reason why teams don't pick him right now and that's fine, but don't pretend he's a bad hero who never gets played ever.
edit: I guess the UAM is an attempt to give more options to the hero, I don't really see the problem with giving a deso, mask of madness, diffusal blade, skadi or satanic to Ursa, why not? Skadi and satanic strikes me as interesting because of the ult synergy and what both items offer to him. I do find the prospect of a stable lvl 5 solo Roshan terrifying tho.
Mask of Madness. Movement and attack speed, better than Vladimir (for Ursa) for the same price. I at least think that will be a common item since it allows faster jungling/ancient/rosh while giving you limited chase ability.
MoM?? cant you guys think out of the box? i say you stay with vladmirs and then transition into desolator. the amout of dmg will be insane. mom makes him too squishy. you cant take MoM as a sole item anyways, as you have to pair it with bkb in a serious game. so its theoretically no 2k item, its 5,6k.
On April 28 2014 15:48 Aelfric wrote: I see offlane lich becoming really viable after this. Deny xp and staying in the lane is not extremely hard with spams. Maybe can even rush aghs.
so you are blind.
lich offlane has a very big flaw in this current meta. this also comes from his creepdenying.
if there is a lich solo offlane. he might get exp via creep denyal, but this is also his downfall, because the enemys will just push. he cant do shit against prople that just push his tower, which is even easier because he helps you to push with sacrifice. also: have you ever seen lich ulti bounce more that 2 times in a competetive game? no you didnt. thats why is dosent matter how many bounced this ultimate can have at maximum.
just to make sure this is also mentioned: +8/9 amor on the tower will not do anything against this fact. it will only slow them down by 1 creepwave. maxbe 2.
You can always spam your first skill thanks to sacrifice. And you don't have to have a late game farmer carry every single game. You might get a mid game fighter team and get lich offlane and pull creeps to tier 2 when the push comes. Yes his ulti is unreliable but pros do combinations really well so combining his ulti with something like rp or chrono or maybe even vacuum isn't impossible either.
Lich could grab some xp with boots first on offlane but so does all offlaners, once the ennemies have boots too it's the easiest tower dive. Besides getting ulti on lich is nice but no way near as useful than on clock, timber, centaur, BH who are all harder to kill except for BH. Tbh sacrifice is already fucking op in pubs, I wish they would not buff a boring hero as much when they barely improve melee strength carries outside of tiny who is already the most picked out of this pool...
I really don't see much benefit of orb effect on ursa except you won't have to buy the full vlad to sustain and orb of venom in lane. Hex and abyssal will remain the superior choices late game and midgame you'll usually want other stuff like dagger and BKB. Sure it will improve his lategame but you will still want to end before I guess, or maybe in combinations with those boring mid farmer.
My wishlist would be agha on jugg allowing him to right click during bladefury but maybe he would be op though I doubt it as it's still a 24 sec cd.
Please just make the omnislash better than sleight of fist.
It's just too stupid that a non-ultimate with the same function does a better job than the ultimate that does the same shit. Pretty shit icefrog i hope that amphibian realizes that.
Decrease more cd with aghs or something. There is almost no area that omnislash is better than sleight of fist in the lategame.
Why would you compare omnislash to SoF? Omnislash does a ton of nuke damage (2k-3k at lvl 16 with aghs, plus auto attacks), while SOF damage is dependant on enemy positioning and having battlefury and some damage items.
They are different skills.
But ember is stupid, screw that hero.
Omnislash is supposed to be an ultimate
Until the day omnislash does not do the same shit ton of damage SoF aka teamwipe damage. I will not stop complaining.
But i mainly complaining with the cd only. SoF has a really low cd while omnislash has higher. And sometimes SoF does a better job. Well usually SoF does a better job. It's unfair.
On April 28 2014 21:52 goody153 wrote: The lina change is pretty shit. Carries that have low health will have a hard time in CM. Oh wait there is a lot of carries with low health.
I highly doubt that this will do much for Lina.
Aghs alone most likely won’t do it… She still needs Forcestaff or Blink on top. Aghs + Forcestaff/Blink won’t do it… She needs tons of Mana to actually use her spells + ult (laguna blade costs like 620 mana on lvl 3 with Aghs iirc). Being able to hit a BKB’d carry is nice, but throwing your whole combo on a support to take him out is just as viable in many cases… If you want to be truly usefull Hex or Ethereal Blade still seem to be better choices…
In general Lion is just better?Even if BKB’s are around, he can still instagib 2 Illusions with Hex/Manadrain and his stun is easier to hit (if you ever played as Lion against lategame TB or Naga you realise just how powerfull this actually is). +his Aghs-Ult still seems better (and he can refill his Mana between fights).
Lina will be able to hurt the enemy carry but if your expecting your 4/5 to « deal » with the enemy carry you most likely have some issues in your lineup anyway . Running her on a higher priority seems strange because she lacks an ability to take down towers quickly or a way to really initiate…
I really like to play Lina but she just feels „meh“.
On April 28 2014 21:52 goody153 wrote: The lina change is pretty shit. Carries that have low health will have a hard time in CM. Oh wait there is a lot of carries with low health.
I highly doubt that this will do much for Lina.
Aghs alone most likely won’t do it… She still needs Forcestaff or Blink on top. Aghs + Forcestaff/Blink won’t do it… She needs tons of Mana to actually use her spells + ult (laguna blade costs like 620 mana on lvl 3 with Aghs iirc). Being able to hit a BKB’d carry is nice, but throwing your whole combo on a support to take him out is just as viable in many cases… If you want to be truly usefull Hex or Ethereal Blade still seem to be better choices…
In general Lion is just better?Even if BKB’s are around, he can still instagib 2 Illusions with Hex/Manadrain and his stun is easier to hit (if you ever played as Lion against lategame TB or Naga you realise just how powerfull this actually is). +his Aghs-Ult still seems better (and he can refill his Mana between fights).
Lina will be able to hurt the enemy carry but if your expecting your 4/5 to « deal » with the enemy carry you most likely have some issues in your lineup anyway . Running her on a higher priority seems strange because she lacks an ability to take down towers quickly or a way to really initiate…
I really like to play Lina but she just feels „meh“.
i am more worried in the mid-lategame lina support getting aghs ..
After testing it, Husk change doesn't do much. Mek-> Armlet are still your two best first items to go for. You get a better extension for lategame in Satanic compared to Heart, but still.
On April 28 2014 21:52 goody153 wrote: The lina change is pretty shit. Carries that have low health will have a hard time in CM. Oh wait there is a lot of carries with low health.
I highly doubt that this will do much for Lina.
Aghs alone most likely won’t do it… She still needs Forcestaff or Blink on top. Aghs + Forcestaff/Blink won’t do it… She needs tons of Mana to actually use her spells + ult (laguna blade costs like 620 mana on lvl 3 with Aghs iirc). Being able to hit a BKB’d carry is nice, but throwing your whole combo on a support to take him out is just as viable in many cases… If you want to be truly usefull Hex or Ethereal Blade still seem to be better choices…
In general Lion is just better?Even if BKB’s are around, he can still instagib 2 Illusions with Hex/Manadrain and his stun is easier to hit (if you ever played as Lion against lategame TB or Naga you realise just how powerfull this actually is). +his Aghs-Ult still seems better (and he can refill his Mana between fights).
Lina will be able to hurt the enemy carry but if your expecting your 4/5 to « deal » with the enemy carry you most likely have some issues in your lineup anyway . Running her on a higher priority seems strange because she lacks an ability to take down towers quickly or a way to really initiate…
I really like to play Lina but she just feels „meh“.
i am more worried in the mid-lategame lina support getting aghs ..
I'm fired up for the lina buffs.
IMHO I think she comes out on top of Lion now if her ult pierces through BKB and her range is increased to 670. People always forget about fiery soul, which really adds to her potency compared to other nukers who blow their load and then have nothing left for the teamfight.
On April 28 2014 21:51 goody153 wrote:It's just too stupid that a non-ultimate with the same function does a better job than the ultimate that does the same shit. Pretty shit icefrog i hope that amphibian realizes that.
Decrease more cd with aghs or something. There is almost no area that omnislash is better than sleight of fist in the lategame.
Make Jug's ult include right-click without the MS required for the bonus. Tweak the spell or make it Aghs only because you don't want someone to do too much damage on top of a crit skill, multiple times on 1 target.
On April 28 2014 21:51 goody153 wrote:It's just too stupid that a non-ultimate with the same function does a better job than the ultimate that does the same shit. Pretty shit icefrog i hope that amphibian realizes that.
Decrease more cd with aghs or something. There is almost no area that omnislash is better than sleight of fist in the lategame.
Make Jug's ult include right-click without the MS required for the bonus. Tweak the spell or make it Aghs only because you don't want someone to do too much damage on top of a crit skill, multiple times on 1 target.
Well, lowering his BAT like they did does make it easier to proc auto's during his ult. I can't off the top of my head think of a more elegant way to enable this more without just making it exactly like SoF.
On April 28 2014 21:51 goody153 wrote:It's just too stupid that a non-ultimate with the same function does a better job than the ultimate that does the same shit. Pretty shit icefrog i hope that amphibian realizes that.
Decrease more cd with aghs or something. There is almost no area that omnislash is better than sleight of fist in the lategame.
Make Jug's ult include right-click without the MS required for the bonus. Tweak the spell or make it Aghs only because you don't want someone to do too much damage on top of a crit skill, multiple times on 1 target.
Well, lowering his BAT like they did does make it easier to proc auto's during his ult. I can't off the top of my head think of a more elegant way to enable this more without just making it exactly like SoF.
Oh shit, you likely right. Possibly allows you to get sensible items instead of Mjolnir to follow up on Aghs too if you wanted to do this.
SoF isnt the problem at all. the problem is the ultimate of ember and the fact, that you can cast searing chains while CoF is active. you can not effectively gank him, as this hero forgives nearly any horrific positioning mistakes...
It is hilarious to see people whine ember all day long and when i do the same, got flamed hard.
Adding fantastic properties to support aghs makes the game better or just forces low income supports being more greedy? I don't think it contributes more than just lulz for many of them(excluding AA). Necro aghs did nothing, omni the same. I think these changes apply pressure to pub games more than competitive. There are already more than enough brown boots -> aghs rusher supports, don't even buy couriers.
On April 29 2014 00:29 Sn0_Man wrote: Lion and lina are a lot less similar than people like to make them out.
Then who is similar to Lina?
Skywrath? Lightning/Stun-Leshrac?
She seems to be the last "pure" nuker...
Shotgun morphling. Both are nuke-centered that transition into right clickers. But shotgun morphling does it better after getting some levels and farm and already has blink. While lina obviously has better contribution early on.
On April 29 2014 01:55 Laserist wrote: It is hilarious to see people whine ember all day long and when i do the same, got flamed hard.
Adding fantastic properties to support aghs makes the game better or just forces low income supports being more greedy? I don't think it contributes more than just lulz for many of them(excluding AA). Necro aghs did nothing, omni the same. I think these changes apply pressure to pub games more than competitive. There are already more than enough brown boots -> aghs rusher supports, don't even buy couriers.
One of the unspoken benefits of the new Aghs upgrades is that it encourages more experimentation in lanes. For most Jakiro players Aghs is not a realistic options since Veil/Force Staff/Euls/Urn are cheaper and provide better team utility. However, that assumes a support position. Jakiro is also one of the better INT laners due to Liquid Fire and can deal with mid heroes like TA and Ember. An Aghs upgrade on mid Jakiro is realistic and often desirable as it massively increases his zoning/pushing power. I think Euls + Aghs can be a viable item build for him in 6.81.
Like if ur gonna dedicate a dumb amount of farm to a useless doesn't-scale nuker, it might as well be a sick-ass one like Skywrath or Zoos (or now lina) instead of jak who doesn't even really improve with itams.
On April 29 2014 01:55 Laserist wrote: It is hilarious to see people whine ember all day long and when i do the same, got flamed hard.
Adding fantastic properties to support aghs makes the game better or just forces low income supports being more greedy? I don't think it contributes more than just lulz for many of them(excluding AA). Necro aghs did nothing, omni the same. I think these changes apply pressure to pub games more than competitive. There are already more than enough brown boots -> aghs rusher supports, don't even buy couriers.
But necro isn't a support.
One day... one day they'll let me farm on him. People used to let me all the time way back in the early stages of beta (late 2011-early 2012) but it's long past that. I pick necro, I put him bot, I say I'm farming and then boom, NECRO WHY YOU NOT BUY COUR WTF
On April 29 2014 04:28 Sn0_Man wrote: Like if ur gonna dedicate a dumb amount of farm to a useless doesn't-scale nuker, it might as well be a sick-ass one like Skywrath or Zoos (or now lina) instead of jak who doesn't even really improve with itams.
You don't pick Jakiro mid with late-game scaling in mind. You play him like DK and break the towers as soon as you hit level 6. The difference is you don't get Macropyre because it sucks early on. You max out Liquid Fire first.
I think Skywrath is worse overall in mid since he's so fragile and has to use money to acquire bulk.
Sure but aghs doesn't do anything if ur pushing towers.
The whole point of it's range is so that ur hero can stand way back and abuse Icepath and ult range from safety but if ur a liquid fire maxer for pushing purposes then ur running into them to use that and the range has no benefit. Like, the benefit aghs gives you synergizes with being a squishy backline support but the only time you'd ever get that farm is as a different role that doesn't care about the aghs benefit its quite inconvenient really.
On April 29 2014 04:39 Sn0_Man wrote: Sure but aghs doesn't do anything if ur pushing towers.
The whole point of it's range is so that ur hero can stand way back and abuse Icepath and ult range from safety but if ur a liquid fire maxer for pushing purposes then ur running into them to use that and the range has no benefit. Like, the benefit aghs gives you synergizes with being a squishy backline support but the only time you'd ever get that farm is as a different role that doesn't care about the aghs benefit its quite inconvenient really.
You use Aghs to break high ground, control the area around towers and Roshan, and prevent the supports from passing a certain area. In theory Aghs Macropyre is amazing for pushing towers because once it's cast behind the tower, you control where the enemy team can move.
Liquid Fire has 600 manual cast range. You don't "run into people with it". You push the creep wave with Dual Breath and waggle back and forth while casting Fire on the tower. It's brain-dead easy and safe to do.
Jakiro is not a "squishy backline support". He has the best base STR out of all INT heroes and the 4th highest STR gain (2.3). He only needs mana regen and maybe Veil to accomplish his purpose, and he can do it a lot faster than Orchid/Scythe carriers.
I see these Aghs upgrades as another Icefrog hint that he doesn't like seeing 1-1-3 setups all the time. Out of all people he should know 80% of them are impractical in current competitive play and no one was crying about them in pubs.
He said he wants to add Aghs to every single hero, that's why he keeps adding them. But he obviously doesn't want them to be core for everything, that would be boring. The current status is fine, if you somehow get a triple kill and realize you have a shitload a gold, you may as well buy aghs, but it's not something that you aim for in the beginning of the game.
Just because he is adding Aghs doesn't mean he is pushing for supports to get more farm. People overreact about them all the time, they said Omni would be a viable mid as well. Even AA with a gamebreaking Aghs wasn't pushed into a farming position. One of the biggest advantage of DK is that he scales well, if you want to go for a one-dimensional pushing strat you may as well pick Pugna.
On April 29 2014 04:39 Sn0_Man wrote: Sure but aghs doesn't do anything if ur pushing towers.
The whole point of it's range is so that ur hero can stand way back and abuse Icepath and ult range from safety but if ur a liquid fire maxer for pushing purposes then ur running into them to use that and the range has no benefit. Like, the benefit aghs gives you synergizes with being a squishy backline support but the only time you'd ever get that farm is as a different role that doesn't care about the aghs benefit its quite inconvenient really.
You use Aghs to break high ground, control the area around towers and Roshan, and prevent the supports from passing a certain area. In theory Aghs Macropyre is amazing for pushing towers because once it's cast behind the tower, you control where the enemy team can move.
Liquid Fire has 600 manual cast range. You don't "run into people with it". You push the creep wave with Dual Breath and waggle back and forth while casting Fire on the tower. It's brain-dead easy and safe to do.
Jakiro is not a "squishy backline support". He has the best base STR out of all INT heroes and the 4th highest STR gain (2.3). He only needs mana regen and maybe Veil to accomplish his purpose, and he can do it a lot faster than Orchid/Scythe carriers.
I see these Aghs upgrades as another Icefrog hint that he doesn't like seeing 1-1-3 setups all the time. Out of all people he should know 80% of them are impractical in current competitive play and no one was crying about them in pubs.
On April 29 2014 04:39 Sn0_Man wrote: Sure but aghs doesn't do anything if ur pushing towers.
The whole point of it's range is so that ur hero can stand way back and abuse Icepath and ult range from safety but if ur a liquid fire maxer for pushing purposes then ur running into them to use that and the range has no benefit. Like, the benefit aghs gives you synergizes with being a squishy backline support but the only time you'd ever get that farm is as a different role that doesn't care about the aghs benefit its quite inconvenient really.
You use Aghs to break high ground, control the area around towers and Roshan, and prevent the supports from passing a certain area. In theory Aghs Macropyre is amazing for pushing towers because once it's cast behind the tower, you control where the enemy team can move.
Liquid Fire has 600 manual cast range. You don't "run into people with it". You push the creep wave with Dual Breath and waggle back and forth while casting Fire on the tower. It's brain-dead easy and safe to do.
Jakiro is not a "squishy backline support". He has the best base STR out of all INT heroes and the 4th highest STR gain (2.3). He only needs mana regen and maybe Veil to accomplish his purpose, and he can do it a lot faster than Orchid/Scythe carriers.
I see these Aghs upgrades as another Icefrog hint that he doesn't like seeing 1-1-3 setups all the time. Out of all people he should know 80% of them are impractical in current competitive play and no one was crying about them in pubs.
Aghs sucks dick on jak for exactly the reasons I stated. It's key gain is in allowing you to position safely, but jakiro in a role that desires that positioning won't have the farm for an aghs.
A jakiro that can farm an aghs doesn't need an aghs. If aghs made macropyre hit towers for some amount we'd so be in business.
On April 29 2014 05:09 SKC wrote: He said he wants to add Aghs to every single hero, that's why he keeps adding them. But he obviously doesn't want them to be core for everything, that would be boring. The current status is fine, if you somehow get a triple kill and realize you have a shitload a gold, you may as well buy aghs, but it's not something that you aim for in the beginning of the game.
Just because he is adding Aghs doesn't mean he is pushing for supports to get more farm. People overreact about them all the time, they said Omni would be a viable mid as well. Even AA with a gamebreaking Aghs wasn't pushed into a farming position. One of the biggest advantage of DK is that he scales well, if you want to go for a one-dimensional pushing strat you may as well pick Pugna.
I would never buy the old Aghs on Jakiro for any reason. Veil was just better and Aghs had no discernible purpose.
Omni isn't be a viable mid because of his overall skill set.
AA's farming priority did change. While the Aghs addition was in 6.78, his burgeoning popularity in 6.80 changed how willing teams were to acquiesce farm. If he had become popular prior to 6.78 you would never see AAs getting a free lane or jungle to get items. What would he get with it? Urn? Mek? Wards?
Considering many changes in 6.79 were specifically made to help support income and nerf passive defensive trilanes, I would disagree. Not to mention he could've left many of the Aghs changes as they were since they rarely made a difference in games.
Unlike Pugna Jakiro doesn't die to a breeze, has better lane presence that doesn't require Bottle, and is superior in team fights with less items. Unlike DK he has no gap in his siege timing and has better overall CC. DK is the better hero though but it's often worthwhile to simply win the lane matchup (which Jakiro can definitely do).
his own arguments arent even good if u try to break towers at 6 like he says when comparing to dk, u have 1 point breath and path cuz u invested into liquid fire it sounds nice but in reality ur gonna get dumped on then he says jakiro will win lanes with liquid fire spam but again investing that many points makes him do absolutely nothing else and no competent player will ever lose lane he does not win lane, hes slow, his animations are god awful and his scaling is still awful the aghs upgrade is also completely contradictory to allow him a farming role like sno man said
Whenever I play Jakiro, I cast ice path. When I cast Ice path, whether it hits half their team or not, I think "God this spell is fucking terrible" Then I go "Hmm. Maybe I should get dual breath instead? At least it does -almost- 100 damage at level 1, and a 30% slow for 5s is more CC than a fucking 1 second stun"
But then I realize that an 80 damage nuke and a 30% 5s slow is also bad, and the slow doesn't scale with levels,
Then i wonder if Jakiro abused me in a past life, or if I just hate the hero because everything except Liquid Fire and his base stats seem awful.
On April 29 2014 05:59 Sn0_Man wrote: Cosmic ur theorycrafting is just mega-questionable
Probably but I'm much better at it than before. And I'm perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong. But I've seen the concept work out in some professional matches so there's hope.
On April 29 2014 06:10 FinestHour wrote: his own arguments arent even good if u try to break towers at 6 like he says when comparing to dk, u have 1 point breath and path cuz u invested into liquid fire it sounds nice but in reality ur gonna get dumped on then he says jakiro will win lanes with liquid fire spam but again investing that many points makes him do absolutely nothing else and no competent player will ever lose lane he does not win lane, hes slow, his animations are god awful and his scaling is still awful the aghs upgrade is also completely contradictory to allow him a farming role like sno man said
You're right. How dare I question conventional wisdom. I should just pretend AA is unviable due to his lack of reliable stun and Naga can't carry anymore. That's what people were saying pre-6.80 so they must've been right.
Then I wonder how Aloha feels, getting crushed by Ryze's Jakiro as Ember Spirit in Starladder. But maybe you're just better than him. I'm sure you would've totally won the lane.
He doesn't need to do anything else. Watch Rox.Kis vs MMC in Fragbite Masters. Rox.Kis runs a goofy Jakiro/DS/Tree trilane and tower-dives the offlaner at level 1 with only two creeps. And they can do that because of level 1 Fire. It's the most underrated spell in the game.
On April 29 2014 06:16 Staboteur wrote: Whenever I play Jakiro, I cast ice path. When I cast Ice path, whether it hits half their team or not, I think "God this spell is fucking terrible" Then I go "Hmm. Maybe I should get dual breath instead? At least it does -almost- 100 damage at level 1, and a 30% slow for 5s is more CC than a fucking 1 second stun"
But then I realize that an 80 damage nuke and a 30% 5s slow is also bad, and the slow doesn't scale with levels,
Then i wonder if Jakiro abused me in a past life, or if I just hate the hero because everything except Liquid Fire and his base stats seem awful.
They're awful. Hence why the 1-1-4 build has gained popularity. It's the best use of his skill points early on.
On April 29 2014 06:35 Sn0_Man wrote: I mean I've been carried by Aui's mid jakiro for the lulz and its hilarious and has some upside but its not even close to viable.
He's not a great mid in general and he never will be. But it works sometimes and honestly that's all that matters. That's all I was ever arguing too.
The issue with "works sometimes" strats is that virtually everything can work sometimes. Doesn't mean there isn't a better alternative or that that particular choice was a reason they won the game. Even good pro teams do a lot of random shit that may or may not work, but just because Illidan won with Breath of Fire-less DK, doesn't make it good.
I wouldn't skill macro pyre before lvl 13 even if it came with the aghs upgrade built in. In effect it forces the team to move, and does 1 second's worth of damage. It's like a shitty version of cold feet that can hit more than one person. There is a reason that the only time jak is picked is when ds/mag are imbalanced as hell.
Give aghs upgrade a 30% slow that goes through bkb. then we are getting somewhere.
On April 29 2014 06:49 hacklebeast wrote: I wouldn't skill macro pyre before lvl 13 even if it came with the aghs upgrade built in. In effect it forces the team to move, and does 1 second's worth of damage. It's like a shitty version of cold feet that can hit more than one person. There is a reason that the only time jak is picked is when ds/mag are imbalanced as hell.
Give aghs upgrade a 30% slow that goes through bkb. then we are getting somewhere.
its area denial
Its area denial is amazing right now, nothing else in the game does htat much.
On April 29 2014 06:56 Firebolt145 wrote: Ice Wall is actually a stupidly strong spell if you can place it well.
Idk, I would almost always have the more damage, longer stun, better cast time of inpale/earth spike compared to the extra range and better cooldown.
It's kind of like saying ta is the strongest carry in the game because she gets kunkka cleave on every hit. Yea, sure, it would be nice if it worked like that, but it's unrealistic to expect it to happen with any kind of regularity.
Edit: well fuck. I can't tell which spell we are talking about anymore. The jakiro one is bad.
On April 29 2014 06:39 FinestHour wrote: do you even realize that your examples of the hero being good are games with random b level pros
How many people here are better than random B level pros?
I remember when VP ran support AA and carry WK before they were considered viable in those roles. They were dismissed as hipsters using goofy strategies that only worked against bad teams. Except they managed to pull it off against some solid teams like Na'Vi. People said Meracle could only make carry Naga work in pubs and never in a serious match; even less would've argued Naga was a viable mid hero with bottle crowing. Popular opinion in 6.79 was that Aghs was trash on Void and now people say it's a viable strategy thanks to Burning. The funny thing is it's worse on Void now than it was back then and Burning always went Aghs rush on the hero.
On April 29 2014 06:56 Firebolt145 wrote: Ice Wall is actually a stupidly strong spell if you can place it well.
Idk, I would almost always have the more damage, longer stun, better cast time of inpale/earth spike compared to the extra range and better cooldown.
It's kind of like saying ta is the strongest carry in the game because she gets kunkka cleave on every hit. Yea, sure, it would be nice if it worked like that, but it's unrealistic to expect it to happen with any kind of regularity.
On April 29 2014 06:49 hacklebeast wrote: I wouldn't skill macro pyre before lvl 13 even if it came with the aghs upgrade built in. In effect it forces the team to move, and does 1 second's worth of damage. It's like a shitty version of cold feet that can hit more than one person. There is a reason that the only time jak is picked is when ds/mag are imbalanced as hell.
Give aghs upgrade a 30% slow that goes through bkb. then we are getting somewhere.
its area denial
Its area denial is amazing right now, nothing else in the game does htat much.
Burning aghs rushes only in very specific strategies aka not comparable to pubs. Other times he buys it late. I still contest the value in it but they do it to have manfighting cooldowns up as soon as possible and I can't argue with the results.
PS I've been calling WK legit for ages that hero kicks ass and I'm super glad his crit is getting fixed since the actual worst skill point in dota 6.8 was the first one into his crit in IMO. -1 armor makes his lane worse but oh well.
Unlike Sand Storm, Macropyre isn't countered by dust/wards/gem.
On April 29 2014 07:09 Sn0_Man wrote: Burning aghs rushes only in very specific strategies aka not comparable to pubs. Other times he buys it late. I still contest the value in it but they do it to have manfighting cooldowns up as soon as possible and I can't argue with the results.
PS I've been calling WK legit for ages that hero kicks ass and I'm super glad his crit is getting fixed since the actual worst skill point in dota 6.8 was the first one into his crit in IMO. -1 armor makes his lane worse but oh well.
He doesn't rush in very specific strategies. He always rushes it every time he picks Void. When he was playing Void two years ago he went Midas -> Aghs -> BKB -> damage items -> Refresher; today he does the exact same opener. The only differences are he sometimes delays damage items for AC and Refresher is deemed situational. Oh and he went Battlefury like once lol. But I hate that people were so quick to praise and copy it when the item build was better one patch ago. But since there was no acclaimed pro player doing it in 6.79, it was dismissed as trash. It's an illustration of how much the community overestimates its own intelligence.
There are dozens of examples of stuff like that, from Aegis DR Clinkz to Armlet LD, but if we were to add up everytime someone theorycrafted some absurd strategy and it didn't work... The standard stance will always be to be skeptical.
Noone can predict the future in Dota, even pros look dumb on patch analysis sometimes. But theorycrafting too much can be really annoying because it's impossible to argue against it. If you say it doesn't work because of X, you can always theorycraft a reason why that's not true and the discussion gets dumb. We had pages of discussion on how Lion beats OD in lane for absolutelly no reason because there's no counter to theorycraft.
Even if Jakiro comes back, you can't even say it's because of the Aghs. Maybe the Hero was actually playable before the patch. Maybe it was the metagame shift that made him viable, and noone can predict that. There are plenty of examples of good heroes that weren't picked just because people didn't realize they were good. DS was completelly broken on the start of Dota 2 but it took some time for him to become the top pick he became.
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
Jakiro is a decent hero, is just that not many players can actually use his spells (especially since icepath was fixed, the hero is basically in easy mode compared to the old really clunky jakiro). And Agha has always been one of his best best snowballing items, it used to covered almost half length of the (enemy) base and now that length will be longer.
I almost always get necro3 and then agha for the lolz (usually some advantaged game) when we were camping the enemy fountain since the agha components actually compliment the tankiness of jakiro. Otherwise dagger is a tryhard/all-in good item in some situations.
I doubt that he will get picked much in pro game because the 'mainstream' jakiro build nowadays is maxing liquid fire first. Don't get me wrong liquid fire is a good spell, but playing the hero at a pro level but cant even land some icepath right (more so giving up that spell......)...
On April 29 2014 07:13 hacklebeast wrote: Unlike macropyre, sand storm isn't counters by 2 steps to the left.
Unlike Sand Storm, I don't get a free kill on a support by spending 180 gold.
On April 29 2014 07:19 SKC wrote: There are dozens of examples of stuff like that, from Aegis DR Clinkz to Armlet LD, but if we were to add up everytime someone theorycrafted some absurd strategy and it didn't work... The standard stance will always be to be skeptical.
Noone can predict the future in Dota, even pros look dumb on patch analysis sometimes. But theorycrafting too much can be really annoying because it's impossible to argue against it. If you say it doesn't work because of X, you can always theorycraft a reason why that's not true and the discussion gets dumb. We had pages of discussion on how Lion beats OD in lane for absolutelly no reason because there's no counter to theorycraft.
Even if Jakiro comes back, you can't even say it's because of the Aghs. Maybe the Hero was actually playable before the patch. Maybe it was the metagame shift that made him viable, and noone can predict that. There are plenty of examples of good heroes that weren't picked just because people didn't realize they were good. DS was completelly broken on the start of Dota 2 but it took some time for him to become the top pick he became.
Hmmm...that's not what I'm saying.
A) 95% of the time, support Jakiro will never get the gold to buy Aghs or he will have used it to buy cheaper items like Urn/ Force/Veil. Since he doesn't get any farm priority the Aghs change is nice but ultimately irrelevant for him as a support. B) There are a few limited scenarios when you can run Jakiro mid. This usually include decent-good lane matchups like Ember and TA along with aggressive team fighters. Using him as a mid is the only time where he can get both the levels and gold for Aghs to be an option. C) Prior to 6.81, the Aghs upgrade was so bad you would never buy it anyway. Veil was superior in every sense. The new Aghs is actually worth buying for the duration and cast distance. D) After buying an INT item (Euls/Force usually), a strong argument can be made to buy Aghs over Veil/Necro 3 if you have another Mek carrier. Veil won't give you the area control or DoT of the improved Macropyre while Necro 3 is more expensive and nerfed. And since you get it every 60 seconds you can afford to use Macro just as a deterrent during fights or breaching high ground.
Jakiro is already viable. He's one of the more flexible pushing supports as he offers good CC without needing to farm the jungle; all he needs is 2 points in Liquid Fire and a creep wave. You don't need a heavy pushing lineup to accompany him either; the AS slow makes tower damage negligible. But unless the game goes 40-50 minutes the new Aghs doesn't affect him as a support. It only affects players who go mid but the 6.81 change gives them a greater reward for doing so.
No i dont think that veil is superior than Agha. It usually is when you get that on many of the INT heroes but Jakiro's tankiness can utilize agha's components very well, unlike Veil you are gambling about 2k gold on hitting your ulti on the enemies (in which it is hard to begin with) while getting veil for icepath/dualbreath is rather wasted, unless you have multiple nuker heroes/nukers line up then maybe it is justified.
While with Agha you only use ulti when you find the right timing, otherwise, enjoy the hp and mana that Agha gives you is the biggest reason to get that item. Agha on jakiro is a rare example, the same reasoning only applied to very few other heroes.
Necro, dagger, forcestaff, mek, eul, agha (and of course hex) are better investments. Necro and Agha are the biggest snowballer items on jakiro, if you could get an early hex then you might as well get buriza go full carry mode.
On April 29 2014 07:55 Kupon3ss wrote: jakiro mid would get mek or necrobook almost 100% of the time
If I have a DS/ET on my team I can afford to skip Mek and I'm pretty hesitant on Necro 3 now. If Jakiro was a good split-pusher (huehuehue) I wouldn't mind the XP nerfs as much but you're going to naturally feed minions to the enemy team.
On April 29 2014 08:02 BurningSera wrote: No i dont think that veil is superior than Agha. It usually is when you get that on many of the INT heroes but Jakiro's tankiness can utilize agha's components very well, unlike Veil you are gambling on hitting your ulti on the enemies (in which it is hard to begin with) while getting veil for icepath/dualbreath is rather wasted, unless you have multiple nuker heroes/nukers line up then maybe it is justified.
Necro, dagger, forcestaff, mek, eul, agha (and of course hex) are better investments. Necro and Agha are the biggest snowballer items on jakiro, if you could get an early hex then you might as well get buriza go full carry mode.
It was certainly superior in 6.80. It gave the same increase in Macropyre damage as Aghs but cost 1530 less gold and buffed all magical damage in the area. Not to mention you only need to store Null + HoIW.
I think Dagger is a waste. He can't Blink initiate with his crummy cast point. Force is just more useful overall. He's not a great Hex user either. The Necro nerfs hurt him more than other heroes since he's not naturally adapt at ratting it out. He has to directly fight with them to make the item effective.
On April 29 2014 07:42 Sn0_Man wrote: That was old icepath
omg slightly less damage early ohnoes
Wasn't old icepath 100 damage @ rank 1, had damage scaling in addition to stun duration scaling, AND could be click-cast on a target to basically guarantee it didn't miss?
And macropyre's damage is awful. If it had some lingering "You're still on fire for 2s after you leave the area" dot it might not be just terrible, but as-is a rank 4 dual breath is going to do more damage than rank 1 or 2 macropyre a majority of the time for just over 1/2 the manacost and a fraction of the cooldown.
Macropyre should get a rework so it's like firefly you can cast on an enemy, minus the flying unit properties obv.
On April 29 2014 07:42 Sn0_Man wrote: That was old icepath
omg slightly less damage early ohnoes
Wasn't old icepath 100 damage @ rank 1, had damage scaling in addition to stun duration scaling, AND could be click-cast on a target to basically guarantee it didn't miss?
And macropyre's damage is awful. If it had some lingering "You're still on fire for 2s after you leave the area" dot it might not be just terrible, but as-is a rank 4 dual breath is going to do more damage than rank 1 or 2 macropyre a majority of the time for just over 1/2 the manacost and a fraction of the cooldown.
Macropyre should get a rework so it's like firefly you can cast on an enemy, minus the flying unit properties obv.
Went from 100 flat damage to 25+25*lvl. Then went to 50 flat.
Ice Path is still one of the best non-ulti AoE stuns. Especially after Concoction and Impale nerfs.
I kinda like Jakiro and hes one of my most played supports. My take on Jakiro is that hes just never better than other alternatives. His skills are all good but none of them stands out and you need to level all of them. Breath is your standard nuke which would be the go-to max for most heroes. Ice path is very meh early on since its quite a short stun with barely any damage, yet you want points into it for those value 2-3 man paths come team fight stage. Liquid fire is really good as free lane harassment and he can turn into a mini Pugna if you put several points into it. But then you pretty much do nothing else than push past laning.
So in the end you can be a solid damage dealer (skill Q + E), but then you have to skip on ice path. Or you can be a solid team fighter (skill W + Q), but then you skip on liquid fire for push and lane harassment or overall lane presence. Or you can be a solid pusher and lane harasser (skill E + whatever) but then you pretty much do nothing else past laning. On top of that macropyre is quite meh, it needed to be wider, not longer.
I'd really like to see Jakiro get possible "value points" in either Ice path or liquid fire. Make either of the skills better at lvl 1 and with much less scaling (same at lvl 4) so you can comfortably go 4-1-4 or 4-4-1. Right now it feels you need all your skills to be "complete", and thats not a good thing for a support.
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
soo jakiro is only decent combined with ds like any aoe hero ? what a hero everyone pack your bag this is it 100% ban pick at ti4
On April 29 2014 06:39 FinestHour wrote: do you even realize that your examples of the hero being good are games with random b level pros
do you even realise that this makes him viable in any public game <5,6k?
jakiro still is a great hero, he just dosent fit in the current meta. you guys tend to forget that there are lots of heros that arent played in competetive dota because they simply arent the flavour of the pros.
you guys think: "what the pros play is viable, everything else is not." thats such bullshit.
"omni isnt viable". thats right for pro games. but the only reason why he isnt viable, is the fact, that he is melee. and due to this fact, you can not get him through the laningphase against good opponents. but i really have to ask you the following: do your opponents in publics know how to punish a well played omni? i. honstetly. dont. think. so.
i mean with this patch you will rape any AM with a BS also :D he cant blink anymore ...for how long... 8 seconds? :D
you guys definetly have to pointout about which dota 2 games you talk. public, or high level competetive play, because "viable" means noithing in pubs.
solokill never happens at all at every level what kind of question is that ? dont bloodrage the am unless you're stupidly ahead or you're 3 it's simple
On April 29 2014 18:24 Erasme wrote: solokill never happens at all at every level what kind of question is that ? dont bloodrage the am unless you're stupidly ahead or you're 3 it's simple
It's been a long time I've seen a BS getting a solokill on a full life hero but he's still strong at my level. But some heroes can solokill in the game, i don't know why you're denying it.
He's saying a smart AM will likely beat a seeker 1v1 under the buff effects of bloodrage. I don't see the problem in Erasme stressing that you don't want to be alone.
On April 30 2014 00:52 Noya wrote: I'm pretty sure that Bloodseeker with just Blademail+Yasha beats the hell out of Manta+BF AM with lvl 1 Bloodrage and 0 charges of Thirst
On April 29 2014 18:24 Erasme wrote: solokill never happens at all at every level what kind of question is that ? dont bloodrage the am unless you're stupidly ahead or you're 3 it's simple
It's been a long time I've seen a BS getting a solokill on a full life hero but he's still strong at my level. But some heroes can solokill in the game, i don't know why you're denying it.
On April 30 2014 00:52 Noya wrote: I'm pretty sure that Bloodseeker with just Blademail+Yasha beats the hell out of Manta+BF AM with lvl 1 Bloodrage and 0 charges of Thirst
Yeah he beats the hell out of that TP scroll
TP scroll better than blood rage.
Also, never blood rage a drow ranger. Just eat her stupid little silence and like it. You don't want to multiply her damage, it's a bad scene.
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
soo jakiro is only decent combined with ds like any aoe hero ? what a hero everyone pack your bag this is it 100% ban pick at ti4
yeah i know teamwork is hard
I mean, how dare a hero want to be good in a teamgame.
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
soo jakiro is only decent combined with ds like any aoe hero ? what a hero everyone pack your bag this is it 100% ban pick at ti4
yeah i know teamwork is hard
I mean, how dare a hero want to be good in a teamgame.
At team things.
and theres plenty heroes better than jakiro at that seriously is it hard to understand ?
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
soo jakiro is only decent combined with ds like any aoe hero ? what a hero everyone pack your bag this is it 100% ban pick at ti4
yeah i know teamwork is hard
I mean, how dare a hero want to be good in a teamgame.
At team things.
and theres plenty heroes better than jakiro at that seriously is it hard to understand ?
there really aren't
His abilities have huge impact in a teamfight that no other support really brings to the table.
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
soo jakiro is only decent combined with ds like any aoe hero ? what a hero everyone pack your bag this is it 100% ban pick at ti4
yeah i know teamwork is hard
I mean, how dare a hero want to be good in a teamgame.
At team things.
and theres plenty heroes better than jakiro at that seriously is it hard to understand ?
there really aren't
His abilities have huge impact in a teamfight that no other support really brings to the table.
That's why we've seen him so many times with all the Dark Seers that have been picked up lately.
On April 29 2014 06:27 Shaella wrote: Jakiro is actually really good, and you're all just mega bad.
Like every ability on that hero is amazing except for Macro.. And macro is insane with aghs now, holy shit
clearly enlighten us on how a hero thats so clunky he cant place any of his spells without someone else is really good also stop the theory crafting unless you're actually decent since you don't have a clear idea on how the game is played at pro level
because Ice path is a really goddamn good spell, and his Q and liquid fire keep getting better
I'm sure i'm not the only one that remembers fogged+universe vaccum icepath combos allday with old dig
Like, he pushes well, and there's a lot of heroes that set up ice paths well. Like yeah its a hard to use stun, but its very powerful in teamfights, just like the rest of his kit.
soo jakiro is only decent combined with ds like any aoe hero ? what a hero everyone pack your bag this is it 100% ban pick at ti4
yeah i know teamwork is hard
I mean, how dare a hero want to be good in a teamgame.
At team things.
and theres plenty heroes better than jakiro at that seriously is it hard to understand ?
there really aren't
His abilities have huge impact in a teamfight that no other support really brings to the table.
That's why we've seen him so many times with all the Dark Seers that have been picked up lately.
Oh wait....
I don't know if you're following competitive scene at all if you talk like this, it happens all the time that never picked and considered shit hero suddenly emerges to top tier without any buffs.
I like Jakiro + Phoenix for all of the attack speed slow stacking and Jakiro's ability to both zone people out or trap them for Phoenix's ult and beam. Plus just the ability for both of them to dish out serious damage from 1000+ range. Maybe when Phoenix is added to the pool some other people will feel the same way.
On April 30 2014 05:59 Logo wrote: I like Jakiro + Phoenix for all of the attack speed slow stacking and Jakiro's ability to both zone people out or trap them for Phoenix's ult and beam. Plus just the ability for both of them to dish out serious damage from 1000+ range. Maybe when Phoenix is added to the pool some other people will feel the same way.
I remember when I played Jak and had a phoenix on my team against a Tiny...so many rofl moments that game. Also when is patch coming out? I want to play KOTOL GIFF HEAL GIFF MANA GIFF VISION
In a meta where support value is judged by initiation, lockdown and burst damage/their ability to negate burst damage, Jakiro will not be popular. That is not the purpose of the character. 6.81 won't change that either. The same applies to KotL and Leshrac. At least we'll have fun seeing KotL players try to get Aghs without ruining their lane setups.
P.S. Skip Macropyre until level 10. Thank me later.
On April 30 2014 12:25 Anesthetic wrote: Nobody talking about earth spirit =(
He's still a really difficult hero that is underwhelming even when the effort is invested. The CD reduction didn't change that.At the very least, they could have put him in CM to see what would happen.
He's probably the weakest pub hero in the entire pool, and can only be played in pubs. He's in a pretty terrible place, imo.
On April 30 2014 07:04 CosmicSpiral wrote: In a meta where support value is judged by initiation, lockdown and burst damage/their ability to negate burst damage, Jakiro will not be popular. That is not the purpose of the character. 6.81 won't change that either. The same applies to KotL and Leshrac. At least we'll have fun seeing KotL players try to get Aghs without ruining their lane setups.
P.S. Skip Macropyre until level 10. Thank me later.
Am I really that trenchtier when i pair him with an axe and have a nice lane most of the time? It feels they have some nice synergy, axe can inititiate for jakiro even without blink in the early game. The trenchtier towers melt pretty fast too.
But what does Jakiro do, that other supports don't in this case? Axe + Support is in general a pretty strong dual lane if your opponents have some melee hero against you...
On April 30 2014 18:04 Velr wrote: But what does Jakiro do, that other supports don't in this case? Axe + Support is in general a pretty strong dual lane if your opponents have some melee hero against you...
AOE damage from 3 spells! Liquid fire against buildings/towers. Hey, i said trenchtier man dont blame me but it felt as a nice combo.
Maybe disruptor could have some nice synergy with jakirospells too (but not as a lanecombo i guess). Disruptor can also hold multiple people captive without the ability to use of items in an area for a certain amount of time.
On April 30 2014 12:25 Anesthetic wrote: Nobody talking about earth spirit =(
Earth was strong solely because of a 1200 range instant stun. Without that he's so execution heavy not only on yourself but your team to properly set you up that he's honestly just garbage in pubs.
If they ever want to balance early Roshan Ursa they should make the Roshan timer for Fury Swipes scale like 0/0/6/6 or something like 2/2/4/6. Still lets you be able to do lvl 1 tactics with team, I guess?
On April 30 2014 21:45 Surprise.820 wrote: If they ever want to balance early Roshan Ursa they should make the Roshan timer for Fury Swipes scale like 0/0/6/6 or something like 2/2/4/6. Still lets you be able to do lvl 1 tactics with team, I guess?
I think ur confusing the word "balance" with the word "nerf".
On April 30 2014 22:41 Faruko wrote: Lich + Treant, good luck getting a single tower
Towers already have a fuckload of armor, so while yes you do slow enemy attacks, in general the ice armor isn't that absurd on tower. Good for sure, and I'm glad Icefraud made it happen, but I don't think its at all close to Tree-tier.
On April 30 2014 21:17 rabidch wrote: lightning fix has made me so happy.
Is the Venge bug fixed?
Yes.
Source: Someone tried to use it on Waga's stream and it didn't work. edit: NVM, apparently it only crashes the game if you have the aura skilled. The Venge in Waga's game didn't have it yet...
Veil has always been a much better item on Lich than aghs. I don't see this patch really changing anything there. It's a luxury item, and imo should only ever be your sixth slot.
On April 30 2014 12:25 Anesthetic wrote: Nobody talking about earth spirit =(
He's still a really difficult hero that is underwhelming even when the effort is invested. The CD reduction didn't change that.At the very least, they could have put him in CM to see what would happen.
He's probably the weakest pub hero in the entire pool, and can only be played in pubs. He's in a pretty terrible place, imo.
Earth Spirit is supposedly picked quite a bit as a support in 5-6k MMR pubs in China and quite well regarded.
He's really hard to play, but ostensibly that effort is actually worth it.
On April 30 2014 12:25 Anesthetic wrote: Nobody talking about earth spirit =(
He's still a really difficult hero that is underwhelming even when the effort is invested. The CD reduction didn't change that.At the very least, they could have put him in CM to see what would happen.
He's probably the weakest pub hero in the entire pool, and can only be played in pubs. He's in a pretty terrible place, imo.
Earth Spirit is supposedly picked quite a bit as a support in 5-6k MMR pubs in China and quite well regarded.
He's really hard to play, but ostensibly that effort is actually worth it.
With the new rock cooldown he seems worthwhile to pick again. The ult is still devastating when used well and you can now you can ult -> pull to silence anyone afflicted by the ult which seems nice and pretty reliable. It's not as good as being able to stun from far away, but the fact that you can silence for 5s and push an enemy into allies is still pretty good. I'm pretty excited to give him a try again.
what lina needs is a better turn rate, probably faster attack animation would work too lich is such a good offlaner now
the hype about kotl... would a team yield income to a support early game? i want it to be a legit meta, giving a reason for support to have farm priority in the opening but honestly, with the current egodicks out there, i dont think it will ever work
the problem with ember is the divine status while in fist mode is way too long i would be okay if it's 0.1 sec per jump, so he would be divine only for probably 1.5 sec when a full team plus 2 waves pushing, but currently 3 sec divine status is way too long instant cast + 3 sec divine status + escape mech = ultimate put stomper it's not the damage causing the problem
Rushing a Aghs on Dire side is really dangerous and rushing it on Radiant side will probably suck farm away from the other support. I don't see the rush being viable for KotL unless you play 2-1-2.
On April 30 2014 12:25 Anesthetic wrote: Nobody talking about earth spirit =(
He's still a really difficult hero that is underwhelming even when the effort is invested. The CD reduction didn't change that.At the very least, they could have put him in CM to see what would happen.
He's probably the weakest pub hero in the entire pool, and can only be played in pubs. He's in a pretty terrible place, imo.
Earth Spirit is supposedly picked quite a bit as a support in 5-6k MMR pubs in China and quite well regarded.
He's really hard to play, but ostensibly that effort is actually worth it.
I still play him, however I play him different (I go mid dagon level 1 and then early/midgame just run around ganking like crazy, lategame I do go support though), I think he still does have the potential to completely wreck anyone whos farming alone with a well executed combo+ dagon
Earth spirit was still broken last version in good hands. Now people will try him again and notice he's imba. I've already seen some disgusting Earth plays in page1.
On May 01 2014 07:24 ahswtini wrote: How does that stack, mjollnir procs only if you have flaming arrows on autocast?
(I mean the chain lightning part)
Mjollnir is always able to proc. When they proc, searing arrows doesn't. At least that's how it should be. Autocast doesn't matter, that's Skadi and Searing Arrows
On April 30 2014 12:25 Anesthetic wrote: Nobody talking about earth spirit =(
He's still a really difficult hero that is underwhelming even when the effort is invested. The CD reduction didn't change that.At the very least, they could have put him in CM to see what would happen.
He's probably the weakest pub hero in the entire pool, and can only be played in pubs. He's in a pretty terrible place, imo.
Earth Spirit is supposedly picked quite a bit as a support in 5-6k MMR pubs in China and quite well regarded.
He's really hard to play, but ostensibly that effort is actually worth it.
Which is why I would have really liked to see him in CM.
It wouldn't surprise me if he actually was viable for people who were ridiculously good at him, but there's just doesn't seem to be enough motivation for 99% of the player base to push through. That makes me sad.
On May 01 2014 10:59 CosmicSpiral wrote: UAMs that are hero abilities should always override conditional modifiers, no?
UAMs from hero abilities, such as Viper's Poison Attack, will only be overridden by conditional modifiers if they are set to Autocast. If they are Manually cast, they cannot be overridden.
Counter Helix has an internal CD, depending on how that works, it may be more likely to happen now, with enough attacks at the same time.
It would need 6 attacks during the internal CD for the probability to pass 17%, if the counter starts immediatly.
The spin should happen as soon as you issue the attack command as well, so you should be able to "force" that gif by spamming attack commands with all those units around him.
Can anyone tell me why the hell does the most OP 1 on 1 hero need more buffs ?? - Huskar it is I mean
Really - that "thing" is
1 - strength based (means has HP), 2 - ranged - means can fuck you up (very badly), 3 - has that crazy Burning ability - that is OP even from level 1 really - like literally - that guy has more stacking damage than some of the well known Intelligence nukers.. W.T.F. Why ??
And not to mention the
4 - Ulti thing of his - never has anything been more OP (with scepter that ability has about 8 sec CD, w.t.f., really ??, why isn't Necrophos's Reaper scythe recharging that fast - just for comparison )..
I know he's a "single-target" hero, but come on - this is getting more and more ridiculous.. As if he wasn't already the hugest of huuuuge fuckers
What? huskar remains unplayably bad, and was even worse pre-patch.
He's a strength hero with very meh base strength and strength gain.
His range is poor compared to a lot of heroes
Burning spears hurts him to cast as well and does its damage over time so even if he kills you with it its far weaker than if it did the damage up-front.
His ult sux he does half his HP in damage to himself and puts himself in melee range of the enemy so he doesn't even get to abuse his range. Plus he moves really fucking slow during it so its super easy to see coming. And aghs sucks.
Literally the only change was that he can now use "orbs" but they are all kinda weak on him. Early game his leech sucks because all his damage is from burning spears which u can't leech. all the other orbs except skadi suck ass on him. Skadi's like a million gold and pretty situational. Its hardly a buff.
On May 02 2014 03:27 Sn0_Man wrote: What? huskar remains unplayably bad, and was even worse pre-patch.
He's a strength hero with very meh base strength and strength gain.
His range is poor compared to a lot of heroes
Burning spears hurts him to cast as well and does its damage over time so even if he kills you with it its far weaker than if it did the damage up-front.
His ult sux he does half his HP in damage to himself and puts himself in melee range of the enemy so he doesn't even get to abuse his range. Plus he moves really fucking slow during it so its super easy to see coming. And aghs sucks.
Literally the only change was that he can now use "orbs" but they are all kinda weak on him. Early game his leech sucks because all his damage is from burning spears which u can't leech. all the other orbs except skadi suck ass on him. Skadi's like a million gold and pretty situational. Its hardly a buff.
We both know you're trolling right ?, can't believe people disagree this.. It's a terrible overreaction to say he's unplayably bad, lol.. Unplayably bad my ass.. He's the only thing that can kill Intelligence heroes in direct fights - even on low levels, and not to say that he's fuckin OP as fuck as carry later on..
Most carry heroes are bad on low levels, while this "thing" kills even nukers outright.. , w.t.f.
Huskar is just a pub stomper and a niche counterpick against excessively high magic damage teams (i actually think he's super underutilized as a pocket counterpick) . He mostly relies on surprising the opponent and catching people out of position. IMO, heroes that rely on the repeated mistakes of enemy players tend to not be particularly strong. He gets screwed pretty hard by CC (although admittedly, who doesnt), has a lot of trouble against physical damage (which is problematic, as Sn0_man said, his ult puts him in melee range) and is abnormally vulnerable to pure damage nukes since he spends so much time @ low hp. Also, in my experience, playing him against enchantress is nigh-on impossible.
Sure, he's good at man-fighting burst magic damage heroes, but somehow that doesn't scream OP me. He's middle of the road when it comes to team-fights, great in assassinations, but absolute shit in pushing and counter-pushing power and becomes REALLY useless when he gets behind, making him a real gamble unless you have a specific strategy to use him. So, while I don't think that he's unplayable, he's certainly not in a position where he needs nerfs by any means.
On May 02 2014 04:13 barbsq wrote: Huskar is just a pub stomper and a niche counterpick against excessively high magic damage teams (i actually think he's super underutilized as a pocket counterpick) . He mostly relies on surprising the opponent and catching people out of position. IMO, heroes that rely on the repeated mistakes of enemy players tend to not be particularly strong. He gets screwed pretty hard by CC (although admittedly, who doesnt), has a lot of trouble against physical damage (which is problematic, as Sn0_man said, his ult puts him in melee range) and is abnormally vulnerable to pure damage nukes since he spends so much time @ low hp. Also, in my experience, playing him against enchantress is nigh-on impossible.
Sure, he's good at man-fighting burst magic damage heroes, but somehow that doesn't scream OP me. He's middle of the road when it comes to team-fights, great in assassinations, but absolute shit in pushing and counter-pushing power and becomes REALLY useless when he gets behind, making him a real gamble unless you have a specific strategy to use him. So, while I don't think that he's unplayable, he's certainly not in a position where he needs nerfs by any means.
the problem is high magic damage teams usually have decent CC which he also hates
I do find him keyboard-smashingly frustrating to lane against as a conventional magic-based mid.
Other than his lane strength, yeah, he's pretty underwhelming, but I have to admit I've enjoyed his being so bad even pubstars stopped using him. One of those heroes I wouldn't mind seeing removed from the game.
On May 02 2014 11:00 Belisarius wrote: I do find him keyboard-smashingly frustrating to lane against as a conventional magic-based mid.
Other than his lane strength, yeah, he's pretty underwhelming, but I have to admit I've enjoyed his being so bad even pubstars stopped using him. One of those heroes I wouldn't mind seeing removed from the game.
The hero's pretty bad mid, dunno why would you want to play him there. He can't chase people for kills, and his short range + lack of mobility mean that most mid heroes with long range and mobility skills just fuck him over and over. The hero need to maximize lane strenght, go offlane or bust.
EPT
it's a minor annoyance, but it'll be no trouble at all.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ORR1sGQ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MGR35DE.jpg)
. Running her on a higher priority seems strange because she lacks an ability to take down towers quickly or a way to really initiate…
