Sneak peak into the full article, is only 1/3 translated and I'll post the other parts once I have some time. Enjoy!
[edit] now 2/3 translated
[edit2] DONE, sorry if some parts don't make sense, it was so long
The ladies of the e-sports business. From left: Samsung Khan's manager Kim Ga-Eul, OGN PD Lim Na-Hye, STX Seo Ji-Soo, OGN's caster Jung So-Lim, MBC Game Special Forces coach Lim Soo-Ra.
How much social power do women hold in Korea? Women make up half of the people that pass judicial, administration and foreign affairs examinations and a female has recently graduated from a military academy with top honors, therefore it is not a huge overstatement to say that Korea is moved by the "woman power". More women are striving in new social positions and they currently stand shoulder-to-shoulder with other men.
Even though more and more women are taking up these social roles, e-sport is not the case. 99% of progamers are males and Kim Ga-Eul is the only female manager among the professional team managers. Including commentators and casters, female broadcasting presence is nearly non-existent. There are a few female PD's that produce game-related programs, but in reality, barely any of them represent the league. Unlike the recent trend of more women taking up expanded social positions, it feels like the door for women in e-sports is has become smaller.
For Daily E-Sport's 2 year anniversary, we invited very special ladies. We had a talk with the women that proudly work in a field that is 99% male filled. OGN broadcasting team's only female Jung So-Lim, Dungeon And Fighter league PD Lim Na-Hye, Samsung Khan's manager Kim Ga-Eul, MBC Game Special Forces team's coach Lim Soo-Ra and STX progamer Seo Ji-Soo gathered in one place. DES' lone female reporter Lee So-Ra hosted the interview.
Now let's hear the stories of these women that are active in the e-sports scene.
Lee So-Ra: We are wrapping up what has been an eventful year for the e-sports scene. We wanted to hear the episodes of joys and sorrows from the women of e-sports as a part of DES's 2 year anniversary special. Thank you for making the time to come out here.
Jung So-Lim: Thank you for calling me. I'm sorry that we had to meet at noon instead of at night due to my schedule, I have to record "High-Five League" tonight.
Lee So-Ra: Don't say such things, it looks good that you are so busy. Have you ever thought 'I wish I was born a man'?
Jung So-Lim: I wish that I would be born a man in my next life every time I wake up in the morning. Be it an e-sports career or not, Korea's social system makes me want to live as a man.
Lee So-Ra: Can you give us an example? If you gave an example in a daily situation or in an e-sports related event, I think it would touch us all.
OGN's caster Jung So-Lim.
Jung So-Lim: I frequently think that things would be different if I was a male when I broadcast. My voice can't hold it whenever I try to increase my volume during moments of climax. Especially during important events such as the finals, I need to scream my lungs out, but I still can't express that tone males have that makes it exciting. People rated me "not an exciting caster" when I first started as my voice couldn't explode.
Men's drinking culture is taking a huge role in our society. For an example, women tend to have small talks in coffee shops, but men tend to become friends while having drinks. First of all, men don't like to include women in those situations. Even when they do, they tell the girls to return home past midnight. Eventually, women become excluded as they become a hassle. Compared to men that expand their relationships with alcohol, women are left to feel limited and they can't do anything about it. The Korean society doesn't even think that it's right for women to be in those drinking events too.
Lim Na-Hye: Actually, I'm one that usually leads the drinking occasions. We sometimes have drinks while preparing for Dungeon And Fighter leagues, but I plan them according to my schedule. We tend to finish late at night or not too long after midnight (laughs). I'm worried how I need to adjust this schedule for when I get married. As far as I know, I'm the only e-sports related PD, so I guess I stepped into the men's world earlier than normal. Still, it worries me that there isn't a single female PD that's married in OGN. Now that I'm thinking about the future, this isn't a job that's easy to hold for a woman.
Lee So-Ra: There isn't a married female reporter in the e-sports scene either. I'm getting up there in age too. Let's hear Kim Ga-Eul's story as she is married.
Kim Ga-Eul: Honestly, I've never had to worry about being a female. I didn't like to lose to other men as a progamer, and when I became a manager, I wanted to be a manager that had potential, rather than just a female manager. Back when I had to worry about marriage, I just treated my job as a part of my life, and I never had to worry about giving birth or my child. However, I'm seriously reconsidering things right now. I don't think I can keep up after I have a child, so naturally, I recently became interested in child related welfare policies.
Jung So-Lim: My child is currently attending elementary school. If Kim Ga-Eul is at an age to focus on birth related policies, I'm at a level where I need to focus on education policies. Women compete with men at school and again compete later for the same jobs, but women reach a point where they can't entirely focus on their careers after marriage. Like Coach Kim said, we need to take care of giving births and raising the children, and we also need to be aware of education and welfare policies. Women have to make radical changes after marriage.
Lee So-Ra: I started thinking about marriage after my 30th birthday. Then I started to imagine myself going to live events, talking to players while being in late periods of pregnancy with a full stomach. I couldn't really do it. It may be because no one has done it before.
Lim Soo-Ra: As a coach, I don't get to have weekends. Special Forces proleague games are on Friday and Saturday, and I'm dead tired after the games on Saturdays. Resting on Sundays have never felt like actual rests. When I was a player myself, I just had to take care of my own business, but I need to overlook everyone's practice until 5AM as a coach. My responsibilities are huge as the only coach of the team. I'm too young to think about marriage, but I don't even have the time to think about it.
Samsung Khan's manager Kim Ga-Eul.
Kim Ga-Eul: For me, I sleep in the team house with other players the night before the game. Once it gets late, the players set up the bed for me. It's been like that before I was married too. Since the age gap is very big, the players don't seem to be interested that I'm of the opposite gender.
Lim Soo-Ra: I'm like that as well. I don't think they see me as a woman. I've never thought of them as men either, they've been just Special Forces players to me.
Seo Ji-Soo: Being a progamer, it was disappointing for me to lack stamina and emotion control. Since I lack physical stamina, I can't practice for long hours. Then the skill gap becomes bigger, and I start to lose games. I have the desire to win and compete, but I can't control my emotions since I lose all the time. After losing so many games, I become depressed and wonder if this is really worth doing anymore. I have to deal with these emotions myself, so it becomes very difficult at times.
Lee So-Ra: It's very similar for reporters too, especially in emotion related situations. Male reporters can easily shake off criticism, but I can't do that. Even though I may treat it like it's alright, I find myself locking myself in the washroom and crying. I try hard to not get behind to male reporters, but it really is disappointing that I can't control some emotions like they can.
Lim Na-Hye: I think our will to compete is unusually big, because we specially hold these spots as women. We tend to become really stubborn too.
Jung So-Lim: The will to compete makes things more difficult. Since I've been working in this field for 10 years, my goal has somewhat changed. I've decided to compete against myself instead of other men. It feels like a burden to fight against other men, but it's more comfortable thinking that I'm simply fighting against myself. Not that I'm giving up or anything, it just feels like I'm improving whenever I give it my all.
Original article in Korean (http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=37159&page=2)
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The first topic was 'were there any instances where you wanted to be a male'. The panel fully agreed that the society had flaws which made women feel that they were a hassle to be dealt with. That leads us to the next topic, shouldn't there be cases where being a woman has been an advantage? Let's continue on with their stories.
Lee So-Ra: Were there any cases where you felt it was good that you were born a female, or where you had an advantage of being a female?
OGN Dungeon And Fighter league PD Lim Na-Hye.
Lim Na-Hye: I have an unique episode to share. About 3 years ago, I had an interview in which I lied about my age. Being a PD, there are many occasions where I need to meet with other people, and I was so young back then. Most men start working in their late 20's after their military service is done, but compared to them, I was able to work just after graduation. Also, having a high pitched voice helps in this career. We have to send different signs during programs and other people tell me that 'it's easy to listen to what you're saying even if you speak quietly'. Knowing that they can clearly hear what I have to say is a big advantage.
Kim Ga-Eul: I don't think I've had any moments where I felt being a female was advantageous. Since I was interested in machinery, I majored in engineering. I took care of repairing all the broken electronics and installing new machines at home. After I did that a couple of times, my mom depended on me from that point on. I think growing up like that played a huge role in my life.
Jung So-Lim: I recently started to care about my appearances. Since I'm not particularly pretty, I'm becoming more and more aware of these things as I become more experienced. Some people say that I've been able to keep this job in the world lead by younger generations due to taking good care of myself, but I think it's because I'm a woman. I think I would have given up by now if this was a field with many other female casters. Maybe I'm still broadcasting because there are no other female casters to take over my job. Now that I'm talking about it, it's kind of sad (laughs).
Seo Ji-Soo: I think it's because you've been able to capture the fans of e-sports. It can't be because there is no competition. Don't ever think like that.
Jung So-Lim: Thank you for looking at it that way.
Kim Ga-Eul: I used to think like her once. I wondered if I was called for the job since I was one of the few female progamers. I didn't want to be picked because I was a female with no skill. That's why I tried so hard to be just as good as other male managers. I focused on growing new talent and motivating the players the moment I got the job to prove that I was capable of being a manager.
STX Soul's Seo Ji-Soo.
Seo Ji-Soo: I don't know too much about when Kim Ga-Eul used to be a progamer, but when I was active, it was when all the booming female leagues started to disappear. When I first entered a tournament, I was still in high school, and fans loved the fact that there was a young female progamer on screen.
Lim Na-Hye: I have something to say about looks as well. My superiors talk about me as "OGN's top 3 hottest PD", but really, there are barely any female PD's in the company. It feels good that they consider me beautiful, but it's sad that they have to talk about me like that when there are so few others for them to compare me to.
MBC Game Hero Plus' coach Lim Soo-Ra.
Lim Soo-Ra: This is what I felt when I was a Special Forces progamer. Since it's a game and all, there are tons of males that have good talents. The fact that I was a female progamer spread around quickly and my popularity exploded afterwards. People thought highly of me as they considered me a 'female progamer that was just as good as other males'. People think it's normal that men are good at games and that women are slightly behind in skill. It's definitely an advantage.
Jung So-Lim: FPS is a male's gaming category. People will naturally support you if a female progamer does well and congratulate you twice as much as they would had a male progamer got the same result. Of course people will recognize you in a male only category.
Seo Ji-Soo: I think I became popular, even though I've never made an appearance in proleague, because I'm a woman. I only did well in female leagues, but that was good enough to get me popular.
All 6 females gathered here have been recognized in their respective fields, because they are females, but it's clearly apparent that they had their know-how's to survive in this men's world. Let's hear about their 'methods of survival'.
Jung So-Lim: When I first started broadcasting e-sports, there were no role models. I just followed what other male casters did. Since I had to scream a lot, people criticized me for increasing my volume even though I had a high toned voice. They said that it hurt their ears and that I was screaming like a duck, so I decided to use a sexism strategy. I normally took care of lower leagues such as the challenge league and the dual tournament, and the climatic scenes are much rarer there. So I decided to deliver comfortably with a softer voice. I forced other caster to talk more and I only acted as the bridge between them. I lowered the level to fit the viewers that are viewing for the first time, and divided the workload between the other casters as the bridge. I was able to make a new style as I ditched the hardcore style to make things easier.
Kim Ga-Eul: When I started as the manager, people focused on the fact that I was a female manager. I hated the fact that people were only interested because I was a female progamer. Different places asked for interviews and all they would ask was 'how are you overcoming sexism as a woman'. I told them each time to focus on the fact that I was a manager with progaming backgroud, and not just a woman. Even in 2004, there were no managers that were ex-progamers. I wanted to be judged as 'a manager with progaming experience that happened to be a woman' instead of simply a woman.
OGN caster Jung So-Lim.
Jung So-Lim: I've had to do a couple interviews myself and all the topics are fixed to 'a female caster that broadcasts e-sports'. It's not like they're monthly women magazines, but they kept asking if it was hard working while taking care of the house and the kids, how do you cope with your husband, or is your kid doing well and things like that. I personally wanted them to ask e-sports related questions, so it was disappointing that they had to focus on such issues.
Kim Ga-Eul: That's right. Whenever the team does well, people comment that 'the female manager must have been running the team pretty tight', but I'm more carefree than most men. As an example, I don't know anyone's birthday on our team. We take care of things, not because we're women, but because the society forces us to. We have to get rid of these stereotypes in order to expand female roles in the community.
Lee So-Ra: I don't think that can't be helped for the media that especially like the words 'first' and 'only'. Being a woman is an issue that the media likes, but people have fixed opinions about how we live, because they focus on the fact that we're women instead of members of the society.
Kim Ga-Eul: Sometimes, I'm sorry to the players that I'm a female manager. Managers can talk to the players about their problems over a drink, but I can't drink at all. So I look for ways to talk about their problems while being sober. Players thought that it was strange for me to do so, but they changed to discuss things with me at bright sunlight. It's also weird to mesh with the players during workshops. I'm the only female on the team, so I can't exactly play with them in the pool in my swimsuits.
Original article in Korean (http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=37160&page=1)
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The e-sports business has been hit with a few issues recently. The players that were involved in the match-fixing incident have been dealt with in the court and Blizzard is currently in court asking for proper property rights. Besides these, there are tons of other problems such as growth of Korean e-sports categories and expansion of smaller games into the e-sports scene. What do the women in e-sports think about these topics?
Kim Ga-Eul: In e-sports, to be blunt, StarCraft has been at the stake each year. There was always some kind of a problem every season. This means that e-sports is still very much in progress, rather than being a finished product. We need to make some changes as it's still getting a lot bigger. There are many people involved in the scene, but their opinions are ignored in most cases, so we need to improve communication within the system. Even though people might have different opinions, I'm sure everyone ultimately wants things to go well. I myself try to represent the team and its players, but we need to gather the minds of all of e-sports. At this point, I don't think we're making the best possible decisions, but rather just reasonable decisions. It has greatly improved from when I used to be a progamer, but we need a better system in order to achieve perfection.
Lee So-Ra: I'm sure there's a lot of politics behind all this. It's disappointing that everyone looks at things from their own perspectives instead of taking the objective perspective and being the third person. I think it's because the men are making all the decisions.
Jung So-Lim: There are things that men can't talk about comfortably. I get this when I broadcast, but you know how there is a caster between the 2 commentators, sometimes they would have arguments on who is right and who is wrong. They both say that they are correct, but this makes everything go downhill. They stop talking to each other, and I can't really talk about the game when I don't know much about it, and they don't make up afterwards. Men are sometimes that narrow-minded. It's not exactly pride, and I end up leading them to resolve the issue over a drink. I think it's a similar situation in the property infringement lawsuit. I don't know every detail, but I think they're just fighting for their pride, because the opposite side crossed their line of property. In my opinion, they just have a unique way of communicating.
OGN PD Lim Na-Hye.
Lim Na-Hye: StarCraft is usually the main category when talking about e-sports, so what I do is a little distanced away. I think having a broad range of categories is very important, but I don't think it can be done just because someone decides to do it one day. Only the games that viewers call entertaining can be considered true e-sports, and StarCraft is already at that level. There are a couple of other games behind, and I'm proud to say that I'm responsible for one of those leagues. I'm not too sure about the recent changes, but the fact that there are no other female PD's already makes the league stereotypical. People say that every sport is a man's possession, as most sports PD's are males, including the ones in e-sports. I don't think we should approach this issue lightly. I guess you could say that it is a very serious topic. When I'm in charge of the Dungeon And Fighter leagues, I ask for strange ceremonies. The players hate it, but it gets the viewers interest. Some people tell me 'you must be asking these just because you're a woman, but don't you think these orders are questionable', but I believe that we need to carve a unique path if we want to succeed.
Jung So-Lim: Sports are supposed to have entertainment values, so I think e-sports too should strive to be entertaining for the viewers. If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament. That's where things are separated. You only watch games, because you enjoy the games yourself. The Korean e-sports categories such as Dungeon And Fighter and Special Forces are unique in the way that they started as users had fun playing the games. The leagues started to become broadcasted and more contents were created. It's normal that e-sports tournaments originate from users simply enjoying the game, but I'm saying that it will become a big deal if viewers turn into users after watching these e-sports games.
Lim Soo-Ra: Special Forces used to be criticized no matter what we did, so we're hesitant to try anything new. We tried to wear huge sunglasses and have weird costumes, but all the reaction we got was 'just go shoot well'. Even if we had an epic game, people were 'sympathetic' that not a lot of people cared. However, I'm still trying very hard even though I took a lot of criticism in my career. I hope everyone can see that we're trying for the best.
Jung So-Lim: StarCraft has always been hot, but no one ever cared about Special Forces. Whenever we broadcast or make new programs, people are like 'why are you trying to make a failed category into a league, you should broadcast another StarCraft match in that time'. There are countless comments saying 'I don't understand why there is a proleague'. I heard that Special Forces players take a lot of criticism, but it's true that their lives were extended by the existence of proleague. It was once a very popular game, and it would've been better had there been a proleague back then, but it's still not too late. It has become a better game already through the league and if we slowly expand the fanbase, we can improve that much more when Special Forces 2 is released.
Lim Na-Hye: People have very strong opinions about Dungeon And Fighter. We're broadcasting the 9th season this Friday at 6PM, which used to be when StarCraft was on. We're taking a lot of criticism for broadcasting Dungeon And Fighter instead of broadcasting Starleague qualifications. The editorial team set the schedule, but the players took all the insults. OGN's live comments went out of control saying 'they're playing Dungeon And Fighter instead of Starleague qualifications'. Players are hurt by those comments and reactions. They're trying their best to show good games, playing the game that they love, but StarCraft fans are obnoxious of that fact. I'm trying to protect these players by replying myself on the live broadcast window. This motivated hidden Dungeon And Fighters fans to show support and that's made things a little better.
Lee So-Ra: Comments related to e-sports have unbelievable power. I feel this every time I browse the community, but it's almost embarrassing to read those comments. There are some rare decent replies, but I'm scared to go on these sites because of the hateful posts.
OGN caster Jung So-Lim.
Jung So-Lim: I was recently insulted by a hateful comment. I try to fix things whenever someone says that I'm doing something wrong, but one person replied saying 'go drive a pan-lid in the kitchen if you're going to broadcast like that'. It basically means that I should just stick to housekeeping. This was an insult used back in the 80's as more and more women got their driver's licenses and the expression was used to say 'go back in the house and stop driving'. I was surprised that these kinds of people still existed.
Seo Ji-Soo: I used to frequently read the comments on the community sites and had a lot of fun doing so, but I don't do that anymore. I don't even read the comments to the articles. I believe I'm the only female progamer left, and there are lots of bad rumors and misconceptions. I was so hurt by this that I still have a hard time asking male progamers to practice with me outside of my team.
Jung So-Lim: When Kim Jung-Min commentator entered the army, the PD told me never to go on the community sites. Netizens tend to be one-dimensional, so he warned me beforehand. This made me even more curious and soon after, I found out that people indeed talk very rudely online. Some of them were very sexual that I can't even mention them, but I think you get used to these as time passes. I'm not really hurt by the comments anymore.
Lee So-Ra: Have Seo Ji-Soo's and Kim Ga-Eul's career overlapped at all? I don't think I remember a game between them.
Kim Ga-Eul: Seo Ji-Soo debuted right when I retired as a progamer. I don't think our careers overlap.
STX Soul's Seo Ji-Soo.
Seo Ji-Soo: I was friendly with Kim Young-Mi and Lee Jong-Mi, but Kim Ga-Eul was a tough character for me. She was at the top when I first began playing and her force would often compete with that of other male progamers. Oh, my sister once played a game against her in the program called "Beat A Gosu".
Kim Ga-Eul: I started progaming unexpectedly, but I tend to be really shy due to my personality. I think I was only close with Kim In-Kyoung and Kim Young-Mi in my early days. It was difficult meeting other people, even though I became close with the 2 people through living together, I still couldn't get to know the others as well.
Lee So-Ra: I think Lim Soo-Ra once said she wants to be someone like Kim Ga-Eul in an interview.
Lim Soo-Ra: When I took coaching lessons, Ha Tae-Ki would often mention that she is a great leader and a person worthy of being a role model. I didn't really know about her as I was a Special Forces player, but I followed her carefully since then.
Kim Ga-Eul (left) wasn't hesitant to give Lim Soo-Ra (right) some advices.
Kim Ga-Eul: Thank you for looking at my like that. I think my personality fits very well with my job. Being stubborn and strong helps me out when I'm at work. To say it positively, I can focus well, but to say it in a bad way, I'm very rough (laughs).
Seo Ji-Soo: I think I'm like that too. I don't like to gossip with other women and think 'why would they do such things' whenever I see other women talking in coffee shops. I think we share that carefree personality.
Kim Ga-Eul: I think we're similar in ways which we shouldn't be. That means that we're not very social... Since I'm the experienced one here, I will give Lim Soo-Ra and Seo Ji-Soo an advice. Keep your own style. Don't just follow it just because someone said this and this guy's style is effective, but accept them with an open mind and adjust it according to your own style. For Lim Soo-Ra, you have to keep exchanging information with the players to make a style that fits both sides. When I started as the manager, I wanted to quit after 1-2 years. It was really difficult back then, but now it feels like it was just a learning period. I hope Seo Ji-Soo can keep walking on the path she is on right now. It can't be easy competing with other men, but people are already approving your will to challenge.
Lim Soo-Ra: People around me say that I'm charismatic, but my personality suggests otherwise. I don't even know how to control the players... I'm still learning.
Kim Ga-Eul: It's important to have a positive mindset. Accept everything and direct it onto the players, but keep it at one direction. Just treat it as an experiment and don't set the goal so high so early.
Jung So-Lim: You must be worried too now that you have to have a child soon. I hope you can come up with a solution by discussing with other married people. I also think that Seo Ji-Soo is doing a fine job right now. It's hard to be alone and it's a position that cannot avoid criticism from the current Korean internet culture. I hope you realize what an important position you hold in this industry. Please take care of yourself knowing how proud you should be of what you do.
Jung So-Lim: I'm always thankful to the fans of e-sports. There are lots of fans on and offline, and e-sports wouldn't exist without them. However, I would like to ask for one thing. Please keep in mind that every comment you make can seriously hurt the players and other related people. Let's be supportive of e-sports through responsible comments.
Seo Ji-Soo: I heard a lot of good things from people I don't get to see often. I want to try harder and show them good results from me in the future.
Lim Soo-Ra: I thought it would be uncomfortable being here, but I was wrong. Let's share more stories in the 3 year anniversary special.
Samsung Khan's coach Kim Ga-Eul.
Kim Ga-Eul: I had a good time as well. I heard to a lot of good stories in the past 2 hours from people that I don't normally talk to. Lim Soo-Ra especially reminded me of myself in the past.
Lim Na-Hye: Everyone here has been revealed on TV, and I'm a person that reveals you guys. I don't know what will happen once these pictures are posted (laughs). It was good that I got to know about each other's situations in the different fields. I hope another woman can become a PD for the 3 year anniversary special so I don't have to come here.
Jung So-Lim: I think I'm the only person that knows everyone here. I broadcast both StarCraft and Special Forces, and ran into Lim Na-Hye a few times in OGN. It makes me feel good, but it's sad that I'm the oldest one here. I still want more females involved in the scene.
Lee So-Ra: I hope there are more women working for e-sports by the time the 3 year anniversary comes around. I hope we can have a real gossip session with more than 10 people. Thank you for being here today.
Original article in Korean (http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/news/view.daily?idx=37167&page=1)
it's good to see that they're not complaining about sexism (at least so far), rather they are just saying that having no Y chromosome is bad for a career in esports
On January 04 2011 14:45 Crunchums wrote: it's good to see that they're not complaining about sexism (at least so far), rather they are just saying that having no Y chromosome is bad for a career in esports
I found this very amusing as well actually. Normally when people bring up disrepancies in gender, they will point out discrimination and lack of opportunity as the main reason.
But i find it very revealing that these women blamed female's own weaknesses which may make it unsuitable for this line of job instead of complaining about society ( aside from the drinking problem)
The lack of stamina pointed out by TossGirl was especially important if we want to consider if female should have their own division as there has been a lot of people saying that in sc, female and male are supposed to be equal since it is deemed not a physical sport
The inability of the female reporter to shake off criticism compared to her male counterparts seems not exclusive to E-sports though.
Thanks for another awesome translation! It is nice to see more women proving themselves out there, especially in e-sports. Also, I did not know MBC's coach was female! I still miss Papa Bear... =( but I guess the MBC progamers had their reasons.
Papa Bear was also in charge of Special Forces though, so Lim Soo Ra did take over him in that sense. She was at first a playing coach (3rd in charge) but took over the team when Coach Ha left. Officially Mumyung is now head coach of both SF and BW.
Tossgirls interview makes her current state even more tragic. I hope STX lets her play soon in places other than Dream League. She's just one more reason to be a fan of hard-working STX.
On January 04 2011 15:36 [Azn]Nada wrote: was I the only one who saw the title and thought this was going to be an argument that BW was a culture, not Blizzard's (One Man's) possession?
On January 04 2011 15:37 mustaju wrote: Tossgirls interview makes her current state even more tragic. I hope STX lets her play soon in places other than Dream League. She's just one more reason to be a fan of hard-working STX.
STX has removed her from the January roster for Dream League. I'm not sure if that means we'll be seeing her on the proleague bench or not. But honestly, some of STX's player management decisions confuse me.
nice translation! now we know what tossgirl has been up to... i never thought that gender played a role in computer games, though. perhaps if they were treated equally, they might do better.
On January 04 2011 15:37 mustaju wrote: Tossgirls interview makes her current state even more tragic. I hope STX lets her play soon in places other than Dream League. She's just one more reason to be a fan of hard-working STX.
STX has removed her from the January roster for Dream League. I'm not sure if that means we'll be seeing her on the proleague bench or not. But honestly, some of STX's player management decisions confuse me.
What? Switched to the A-team for Winners League of all things? Highly doubtable, but I hope it's true, so she's not just sent to B-team again.
On a side note, I'm pumped for Winners League, though it's probably one of the worst formats for STX with Bogus being just above average and Calm not getting his groove on in ZvT.
Jung so lim is doing fine in my opinion because it gets boring you know keep hearing the same male commentators casting the damn show over and over again . With jung so it's nice to hear her because in a way to me her voice is quite pleasing to hear although i don't know what she is saying .By the way i know that they will never read this thread (the girls interview here) they shouldn't give up their goals and dream just look at some big ceo woman who are married and still are able to make it to the top . Keep fighting and about the drinking culture it's nonsense not all dude's love to drink and get wasted after that .....
Thanks for the translations man, I read this a couple weeks ago and thought it was a great article but didn't have the time/dedication to get through the translating part... good that this gets shared in TL.
On January 04 2011 18:45 OpticalShot wrote: Thanks for the translations man, I read this a couple weeks ago and thought it was a great article but didn't have the time/dedication to get through the translating part... good that this gets shared in TL.
lol im debating if i should translate the rest... :/
On January 04 2011 18:45 OpticalShot wrote: Thanks for the translations man, I read this a couple weeks ago and thought it was a great article but didn't have the time/dedication to get through the translating part... good that this gets shared in TL.
lol im debating if i should translate the rest... :/
Do it if you can canuck ^^ will be waiting for it if you decide to translate more parts of it because the starcraft broodwar is eerily quiet ..... so a translation like this does spark some light on dark days like this . Thanks for the translation
[QUOTE]On January 04 2011 17:48 CanucksJC wrote: [QUOTE]On January 04 2011 17:17 FlowerbedOfDreams wrote: pics[/QUOTE]
Epic guys. I was waiting for someone to caption the 1st picture and kept wondering if I was the only one with the dirty mind haha
On a side note, OGN's female caster is a really bad caster imo. The stuff she commentates are stuff that people who have ZERO starcraft knowledge could do. She often describes how units look like, the player's conditions, repeat what the male caster has said, just exaggerates some climatic moments....I feel like she contributes nothing to analysis. I've never noticed this with other commentators, and I think the reason I noticed it more was because she was the sole female commentator.
[QUOTE]On January 04 2011 19:16 lastmotion wrote: [QUOTE]On January 04 2011 17:48 CanucksJC wrote: [QUOTE]On January 04 2011 17:17 FlowerbedOfDreams wrote: pics[/QUOTE]
Epic guys. I was waiting for someone to caption the 1st picture and kept wondering if I was the only one with the dirty mind haha
On a side note, OGN's female caster is a really bad caster imo. The stuff she commentates are stuff that people who have ZERO starcraft knowledge could do. She often describes how units look like, the player's conditions, repeat what the male caster has said, just exaggerates some climatic moments....I feel like she contributes nothing to analysis. I've never noticed this with other commentators, and I think the reason I noticed it more was because she was the sole female commentator.[/QUOTE]
Me doesn't know korean so despite that being said female casters is still a welcome change despite the usual's :D
Seo Ji-Soo: Being a progamer, it was disappointing for me to lack stamina and emotion control. Since I lack physical stamina, I can't practice for long hours. Then the skill gap becomes bigger, and I start to lose games. I have the desire to win and compete, but I can't control my emotions since I lose all the time. After losing so many games, I become depressed and wonder if this is really worth doing anymore. I have to deal with these emotions myself, so it becomes very difficult at times.
On January 04 2011 15:36 [Azn]Nada wrote: was I the only one who saw the title and thought this was going to be an argument that BW was a culture, not Blizzard's (One Man's) possession?
I thought this too.
Same here
Great article though. Thanks for the translation. Hope someone will translate the rest.
On January 05 2011 01:02 netherDrake wrote: Perhaps Tossgirl should consider breaking contract and switching to SC2.. it's really hard for her in BW to catch up right now
They should just let Tossgirl prove herself again in live games. I imagine she can't do worse in a game than say... Juni or Canata.
Tossgirl should have been allowed to play in the STX cup. It's for teams to give B-teamers a chance anyway. That would have made up for the fiasco of removing players from the bench.
On January 04 2011 14:45 Crunchums wrote: it's good to see that they're not complaining about sexism (at least so far), rather they are just saying that having no Y chromosome is bad for a career in esports
They aren't complaining much about sexism because it's not part of the Korean culture to consider this. Gender roles are much more conservative and traditional in Korea, and it's a little depressing to see that they are still so heavily boxed into these roles that they are otherwise overwhelmed by the thought of "growing up, having to get married, having to give birth, and then having to devote all time to the child" and such.
Obviously this is a major difference in perception and they don't see this as unusual thinking at all, but it's clearly shoehorned gender roles like this that result in major disparities.
On January 05 2011 01:02 netherDrake wrote: Perhaps Tossgirl should consider breaking contract and switching to SC2.. it's really hard for her in BW to catch up right now
They should just let Tossgirl prove herself again in live games. I imagine she can't do worse in a game than say... Juni or Canata.
Tossgirl is probably just not good enough even compared to these players. It's easy to forget that players around the top end of the B-team are actually really good players, and I can imagine the gap between Canata and the worst B-teamers being pretty large. Looking at Tossgirls performance in the prelims, she's probably in the bottom 3 in the STX lineup, maybe even the worst, and if you take age into consideration she's definately the worst investment in the team. I don't think the coach would be very popular if he let Tossgirl play, only because she's a girl (which is basically the only reason to play her unless she have improved drastically). I also hope she'll get to play eventually, but she'll have to earn it first. Unfortunately I don't think it will ever happen, since she's had a ideal practice environment for years now, and still not reached the A-team.
On January 04 2011 14:45 Crunchums wrote: it's good to see that they're not complaining about sexism (at least so far), rather they are just saying that having no Y chromosome is bad for a career in esports
They aren't complaining much about sexism because it's not part of the Korean culture to consider this. Gender roles are much more conservative and traditional in Korea, and it's a little depressing to see that they are still so heavily boxed into these roles that they are otherwise overwhelmed by the thought of "growing up, having to get married, having to give birth, and then having to devote all time to the child" and such.
Obviously this is a major difference in perception and they don't see this as unusual thinking at all, but it's clearly shoehorned gender roles like this that result in major disparities.
This was going through my head non-stop while reading this article... especially when one of them said this...
Seo Ji-Soo: Being a progamer, it was disappointing for me to lack stamina and emotion control. Since I lack physical stamina, I can't practice for long hours. Then the skill gap becomes bigger, and I start to lose games. I have the desire to win and compete, but I can't control my emotions since I lose all the time. After losing so many games, I become depressed and wonder if this is really worth doing anymore. I have to deal with these emotions myself, so it becomes very difficult at times.
A woman in the US would never admit to such weaknesses (Disclaimer: If they exist)
On January 04 2011 15:36 [Azn]Nada wrote: was I the only one who saw the title and thought this was going to be an argument that BW was a culture, not Blizzard's (One Man's) possession?
Same.
Very interesting article! Can't wait for the rest. Never really thought about the female perspective of the industry.
If you are still considering translating the rest, please do. I found out yesterday that the topic for my english class this semester is "gender in popular culture" and I was going to do mine on Tossgirl+january+ the female leauge. Then this came up the same day and I was like OMG WHAT LUCK!!!!!
On January 05 2011 06:45 hacklebeast wrote: If you are still considering translating the rest, please do. I found out yesterday that the topic for my english class this semester is "gender in popular culture" and I was going to do mine on Tossgirl+january+ the female leauge. Then this came up the same day and I was like OMG WHAT LUCK!!!!!
LOL i will work on it later tonite before GSL starts
About the female casters , now that I think about it, I don't ever see female casters at any sports really, except gymnastics and sometimes swimming. Hockey, Football/soccer is all done by male casters, perhaps in general males are more interested in these sports ofcourse but I'm still curious why the amount of female casters is low overall, not just at BW
On January 05 2011 06:45 hacklebeast wrote: If you are still considering translating the rest, please do. I found out yesterday that the topic for my english class this semester is "gender in popular culture" and I was going to do mine on Tossgirl+january+ the female leauge. Then this came up the same day and I was like OMG WHAT LUCK!!!!!
LOL i will work on it later tonite before GSL starts
Thanks a lot.
And If you ever need something translated from german that was written at a 5th grade reading level, I've got you covered.
I thought that this was referring to the Gretech/Blizzard vs. KeSPA issue, but this was interesting to read as well. Hearing the female opinions and struggles in progaming, either a player or a coach, is something that had me wondering for a time. I always wondered about Tossgirl's gaming career, and now I know for sure that she's serious about it. Also, is January pregnant, or is she considering having a child? o_O
Jung So-Lim was a big inspiration for me after I had the chance to meet her in 2002. In 2003 her English was good enough that we could actually have a conversation. For the next 4 years we'd have these regular reunions at WCG events and every time she would always be so interested in what was going on in the US.
I really wish we had some dominant female casters on the US side - I know we have some talented ladies, but if anyone remembers Trillian and Deeay from the FPS days, we have no one who even comes close to those two gals.
-_-... I can relate to tossgirl in some ways and I think she's super honest about saying> "Seo Ji-Soo: I think I became popular, even though I've never made an appearance in proleague, because I'm a woman. I only did well in female leagues, but that was good enough to get me popular."
Most Asian cultures are male dominant and I think it will be like that forever. I am not saying that Asians exclude women 100%, but the society is really conservative about this issue.
In a colder but easier way to understand this:
Men hang out with men Girls hang out with other girls And if you are a man who have a close friend who is a girl, or viceversa, they may always suspect you of being a couple. And if you are homo you are doomed
That's how far sexism is in South Korea I am not saying everybody in Korea is like this I am basing this from personal experience.
Korean people are very intolerant because of their conservative nature.
For example in Korea, people are so different to what you see in other people in US or any other country.
We are in 2011 already, it's not weird to see a woman making a living by herself, but as you see in this interview is showing us what is actually happening in their lives.
I actually didn't like this interview because they make themselves look bad. Not themselves but the whole society these women live in.
I feel sorry for January who wants to keep a coach-trainee relationship but can't because of the awkward barrier between them.
I feel sorry for those women casters who wants to stand out, and have normal interviews like any other male casters
I feel sorry for TossGirl who wants to keep gaming, and stand out like any other male progamer but she can't because of her limits as a woman (Or maybe her own excuse for sucking so bad?)
They all like their jobs, but feel excluded from the rest. And when asked why do they like about being a woman they don't even feel special about it. It's like they are not positive at all, they are ranting about society or whatever... but what else can they do if they don't change their attitudes at all. At least these women could feel a little more special like TossGirl does!
Seo Ji-Soo: Being a progamer, it was disappointing for me to lack stamina and emotion control. Since I lack physical stamina, I can't practice for long hours. Then the skill gap becomes bigger, and I start to lose games. I have the desire to win and compete, but I can't control my emotions since I lose all the time. After losing so many games, I become depressed and wonder if this is really worth doing anymore. I have to deal with these emotions myself, so it becomes very difficult at times.
Duno it's kinda weird of her to blame her gender for lacking in physical stamina and not being able to control her emotions. I mean I can see it in sports where men generally have better physical attributes to women but starcraft? That's like saying women can't compete with men in the business world because they lack the stamina to work as many hours.
I know it's a BW article and this probably won't happen, but I'd like to see the SC2 female korean caster being thrown into the mix
Tossgirl is cuuute in that pic. It's horrible thinking about how much she practices and wants to get better and how long she's been trying to make the big leagues and yet she continuously fails to reach that level. I think we should send her a huge fan package soon! :D
On January 04 2011 17:48 CanucksJC wrote: Kang Min? About this big, why do you ask? Just wondering.
You must see a lot of them living in the almost all boys house, huhToSsGirL? Oh, ya I want to know too. Anything worth mentioning? MBC is boring now that Clare is playing that game that must not be named... keke, it's possible... Oh? This may be relevant to my interests!
Great interview and thanks for the translation CanucksJC!
It never really made sense to me why female e-sport gamers would tend to easily become popular. Maybe it's the 'rarity' that made it so. Nowadays it just seems like whenever there's a female player around, people would automatically think positively of her. I think this makes it advantageous for females if they want a career in esports - given that they have what it takes. So even though there could be gender barriers/differences and societal pressures that make it 'hard' for females, this may well be compensated by this gap in how positively they're portrayed in the e-sport community.
Such a cool thing that in korea women are part of esports its kind of spectacular, i showed my mom not only this interview but the play ceremony to the OSL finals and she was blown away by how big it was in korea we was also shocked that there were girl progamers
Also, looks like if you're too emotional to play SC BW or any competitive game then you're going to suck, TossGirl answered the most riddled question in e-sports "Why men are better than women in esports?"
Disregard the whole interview, this is actually what went on. Kang Min? About this big, why do you ask? Just wondering. .....@#$#@ WTF was I thinking breaking up with him like that T,T Look, friend, you gotta help me hook up with him again. I has THIS much weed in my shack, I'll let you have some tonight eh eh?
Great article. Please please translate til the end
SC2 is the only reason I have EVER uttered the words: "sometimes I wish I was a guy", because in general it's more fun to be female . I know I could have so much more fun with it if I was a guy because of the whole guys bonding with other guys thing.
Noone is surprised about girl gamers anymore - there's plenty of them in every online game I've played - and I have some girlfriends who sometimes play SC or SC2, among other games - but it's a whole another level to be watching the progamer tournaments and reading forums.
On the other hand, sometimes it creates amusing situations ...I almost made a coworker fall off his chair when he saw me reading TL during lunch break! ("How do you know THAT SITE?!" lolll) But after he got over his shock we became good buddies and sometimes play 4v4 together.
I am working in the videogame industry, though, so most people around me are gamers. I guess if it was a bank or something, no one would even have a clue what site that was ...
To be honest, I think if Tossgirl ever want to become something she should switch to SC2. Or is she waiting for everyone to switch then dominate the leftover of BW?
On January 04 2011 15:36 [Azn]Nada wrote: was I the only one who saw the title and thought this was going to be an argument that BW was a culture, not Blizzard's (One Man's) possession?
I thought this too.
As did I lolz.
Still, a nice well thought out article with well dispersed interviews.
Big Thanks for the translation. Everyone who ever translated a text will know what work this stuff is!
And also interesting article too. Seems the same Problem all around the world. Women are smart and strong, but men fear them because of this. stupid men. I predict that most of the posts in the following hours and days will go like "they are hot chicks, but..." or "women are winy..." and so on... but not many will register much what these women did for other young female gamers and how strongly not only korean culture but also other cultures still favor men.
If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Good article. It's too bad not more women take interest in E-sports, and gaming in general. I think female players could do VERY well, as I've heard (somewhere from the militay I think) that they deal with stressful situations much better than men, and dealing with stressful situations might be enough to get you into the GSL, if you're a good player to begin with. It seperates good from great I believe
I havn't heard much of the korean commentators, but being a female commentator in general must be very hard, as they imho tend to sound more irritating when yelling.. but then again I guess I'm just not a big fan of high pitched voices when watching a game of starcraft ^^
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
On January 05 2011 21:45 Ryo wrote: "In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament." (Jung So Lim)
Does she play starcraft?
I read that and my eyes almost popped out of my head. o.O
On January 05 2011 21:45 Ryo wrote: "In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament." (Jung So Lim)
Does she play starcraft?
Who the fk was playing in that local PC bang touney? Effort? lol
really nice read, thank you very much for translating.
i often read about the heavy drinking of the korean progamer (men in general), even in this interview it is mentioned several times. is there an article, a blog or something about this? it's like drinking is mentioned in a lot of interviews (Fomos Fruitdealer Interview for example), and the question about the drinking habits of koreans always comes to my mind.
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
uh, no. Men are superior in sports because we have more muscle mass and we don't have mammaries and ovaries, which in terms of physical activity are useless organs that throw off our center of gravity. It has nothing directly to do with stamina, although having those useless organs obviously puts more stress on your body, ie you get tired fast. Women can easily overcome this by simply working out a harder, but at the world class level men will always win.
Hmm... such a different perspective on women's issues. I wonder if females in europe/america encounter these feelings as well (i.e. feeling inadequate for certain jobs compared to men).
I think it's interesting that even men who are actually inadequate for a job often don't recognize that fact for themselves. For example, I had a boss who was really not fit to be management. He was a good chemist, but lacked the people skills and ability to communicate expectations and such clearly. But I doubt it ever crossed his mind that he had serious deficiencies.
I wonder how often the only difference between a man and a woman in terms of fitness for a particular job is that the man just has an inflated or unrealistic opinion of himself.
Females are not very welcome in social settings when men are talking. Female can often invoke conflict and emotions in men that could set them up against another. Men are also very sensitive, our toes can easily be stepped on, and we remember it well. But I think that a woman who has a family of her own can go well in mens social clubs, as she is married and have kids, she is no longer wanted by other men and will not set men up against each other.
Most important thing is to act down to earth, be curious and ask good questions. Woman that does this instead of portraying her insecurities of being a female is an interesting person to talk to.
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
ewwwwwwwwww gross
She obviously has never seen Jaedong play. I still remember the quote, "it was like playing a computer."
Edit:
nice article and the girls are all beautiful and soo-ra is so sexy and no I'm not a sexist just saying the facts.
I'm going to ruin this right here and now. Notice a resemblance she bears to a certain Korean Air OSL winner?
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
ewwwwwwwwww gross
YES!
WTF? I was reading the interviews and when she said that I was absolutely fucking stunned.... How ridiculous... Especially from HER.
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
uh, no. Men are superior in sports because we have more muscle mass and we don't have mammaries and ovaries, which in terms of physical activity are useless organs that throw off our center of gravity. It has nothing directly to do with stamina, although having those useless organs obviously puts more stress on your body, ie you get tired fast. Women can easily overcome this by simply working out a harder, but at the world class level men will always win.
I think the point he made still stands Tossgirl commented on how her physiology makes her less able to practice > 10 hours a day. less practice she gets the worse she is -> the worse she is the more she loses -> the more she loses the ore she cries.
Very interesting read and insight in the culture of South Korea and where women are compared to men and the norms and so on. Great to see these women actually keep fighting as they'll eventually be role models for upcoming female casters and new coaches in this man dominated scene. What sadens me is that they're not really supposed to go with they guys out and have a drink as that is very common in the western world :/. I hope we'll see a new generation of upcoming pro gamer girls but in SC2 as the influence tossgirl has had.
edit: making Community News is one of the best changes that happened to TL imagine this being buried in the BW forum Thank you for translating!
I don't know every detail, but I think they're just fighting for their pride, because the opposite side crossed their line of property. In my opinion, they just have a unique way of communicating.
This made me laugh out loud and maybe this describes the situation the best.
BTW I saw on the internet a graph of Korean women in employment when compared to other countries and IIRC it claimed South Korea is or was behind countries like Afghanistan with not much more than 70%. Damn why can't I find this article now.
On January 05 2011 21:45 Ryo wrote: "In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament." (Jung So Lim)
Does she play starcraft?
Who the fk was playing in that local PC bang touney? Effort? lol
Srsly, I dont buy it.
I dont get it either, and Im trying hard. I guess she is first seeing the huge difference between a footballplayerat MU and the normal hobby player, but the difference between jaedong and a normal hobby SC player, is not huge?
I guess the picture with her showing how much weed she has in her bag is true, must be good shit to say something this stupid. Female or male, you should always think twice before removing all doubt that you are stupid.
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
ewwwwwwwwww gross
YES!
WTF? I was reading the interviews and when she said that I was absolutely fucking stunned.... How ridiculous... Especially from HER.
huh? please tell me shes not commentating BW... If she is she should be immediately fired imo... disgusting T_T
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
ewwwwwwwwww gross
YES!
WTF? I was reading the interviews and when she said that I was absolutely fucking stunned.... How ridiculous... Especially from HER.
huh? please tell me shes not commentating BW... If she is she should be immediately fired imo... disgusting T_T
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
ewwwwwwwwww gross
YES!
WTF? I was reading the interviews and when she said that I was absolutely fucking stunned.... How ridiculous... Especially from HER.
huh? please tell me shes not commentating BW... If she is she should be immediately fired imo... disgusting T_T
OGN's caster Jung So-Lim said this.
she's the one with the really retardedly annoying voice
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
ewwwwwwwwww gross
YES!
WTF? I was reading the interviews and when she said that I was absolutely fucking stunned.... How ridiculous... Especially from HER.
huh? please tell me shes not commentating BW... If she is she should be immediately fired imo... disgusting T_T
OGN's caster Jung So-Lim said this.
she's the one with the really retardedly annoying voice
What I dont understand, is why she have the job? Is it only cause she is female? If that is the case, I can understand their frustration in that they dont feel cut for the job, but got it anyway cause of being female. Cant be fun having a job you dont know exactly why. Wish people could just be straight with them. Either tell them as it is, that their role is to only be "middleman" in the commentating, that they are not suppose to show off climax voice casting, or saying smart things.
I liked this article, thanks for translating this. Tossgirl still looks great in photographs. Maybe she should try go in to the coaching path or even SC2 and become a pioneer there.
Yeah that Jaedong comparison was stupid. In fact, the two things are very similar if you discount the possibility that you can't ever be a successful soccer player if you have bad physique.
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
I don't think men are superior. Males and females have different strengths. Just imagine telling your daughter "sweetie, men are clearly better and superior than you." Anyway, thanks for translating the interview. Much kudos!
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
I don't think men are superior. Males and females have different strengths. Just imagine telling your daughter "sweetie, men are clearly better and superior than you." Anyway, thanks for translating the interview. Much kudos!
If I had a daughter, I would have told her that if she asked or if it was brought up, but keep in mind that I would not use a tone that she is doomed etc. It does not matter that men are superior to her in sports, it matter that she wants to be all that she can be, to fulfill all her potential. And competing in woman sports is just as competing as men anyways. Even though she is inferior, the feeling and the competition is not. Tbh I dont see how this has anything to do with what this interview here is. One woman here complains that her voice can not hold at climax, so what, cant she go around it using a different approach? She is in a unique position, to be one of the first few woman that commentate in this field, why does she have to throw this away by looking at what she lacks? Tossgirl has a very devestating excuse, that her male counterpart just have more stamina, which I find is just an excuse.
All it takes are confidence and daring to try out new things. One of the girls told them to not listen what others tell them to do, but find their own style. That was the best advice given, and they should focus on that and not blame society and what not.
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
I don't think men are superior. Males and females have different strengths. Just imagine telling your daughter "sweetie, men are clearly better and superior than you." Anyway, thanks for translating the interview. Much kudos!
If I had a daughter, I would have told her that if she asked or if it was brought up, but keep in mind that I would not use a tone that she is doomed etc. It does not matter that men are superior to her in sports, it matter that she wants to be all that she can be, to fulfill all her potential. And competing in woman sports is just as competing as men anyways. Even though she is inferior, the feeling and the competition is not. Tbh I dont see how this has anything to do with what this interview here is. One woman here complains that her voice can not hold at climax, so what, cant she go around it using a different approach? She is in a unique position, to be one of the first few woman that commentate in this field, why does she have to throw this away by looking at what she lacks? Tossgirl has a very devestating excuse, that her male counterpart just have more stamina, which I find is just an excuse.
All it takes are confidence and daring to try out new things. One of the girls told them to not listen what others tell them to do, but find their own style. That was the best advice given, and they should focus on that and not blame society and what not.
You have an interesting perspective regarding the dynamics of women empowerment. Personally, I would tell my daughter, if I also had one () to reach for the stars, create her own path in life, and try your best. I think we can agree that you don't want women in our society to see themselves as second class citizens and inferior to men. After all, this isn't the middle ages!
I think Tossgirl has the wrong attitude. She's already set herself back 10 steps if she's blaming her lack of success from being female. Though, I don't blame her. When an entire culture perpetuates that females are inferior, weak, and "emotionally unstable," it's hard to fight against these baseless perceptions. She should draw strength from her gender and let it empower her.
If a female child says, "I want to be the first women president" or "I want to win the GSL," I will tell her to try hard, don't give up, and reach for the stars.
On January 06 2011 05:29 crappen wrote: Females are not very welcome in social settings when men are talking. Female can often invoke conflict and emotions in men that could set them up against another. Men are also very sensitive, our toes can easily be stepped on, and we remember it well.
Alright, but who's fault is this? Surely you aren't blaming women for men's inability to control themselves? Yes the male ego and masculinity are hilariously fragile, but perhaps they should try to take ownership of that?
But I think that a woman who has a family of her own can go well in mens social clubs, as she is married and have kids, she is no longer wanted by other men and will not set men up against each other.
And until then? Shall we stay home in the kitchen so as not to ruffle any feathers? This sense of hostility is largely responsible for there not being many women involved in gaming in the first place.
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
I don't think men are superior. Males and females have different strengths. Just imagine telling your daughter "sweetie, men are clearly better and superior than you." Anyway, thanks for translating the interview. Much kudos!
If I had a daughter, I would have told her that if she asked or if it was brought up, but keep in mind that I would not use a tone that she is doomed etc. It does not matter that men are superior to her in sports, it matter that she wants to be all that she can be, to fulfill all her potential. And competing in woman sports is just as competing as men anyways. Even though she is inferior, the feeling and the competition is not. Tbh I dont see how this has anything to do with what this interview here is. One woman here complains that her voice can not hold at climax, so what, cant she go around it using a different approach? She is in a unique position, to be one of the first few woman that commentate in this field, why does she have to throw this away by looking at what she lacks? Tossgirl has a very devestating excuse, that her male counterpart just have more stamina, which I find is just an excuse.
All it takes are confidence and daring to try out new things. One of the girls told them to not listen what others tell them to do, but find their own style. That was the best advice given, and they should focus on that and not blame society and what not.
You have an interesting perspective regarding the dynamics of women empowerment. Personally, I would tell my daughter, if I also had one () to reach for the stars, create her own path in life, and try your best. I think we can agree that you don't want women in our society to see themselves as second class citizens and inferior to men. After all, this isn't the middle ages!
I think Tossgirl has the wrong attitude. She's already set herself back 10 steps if she's blaming her lack of success from being female. Though, I don't blame her. When an entire culture perpetuates that females are inferior, weak, and "emotionally unstable," it's hard to fight against these baseless perceptions. She should draw strength from her gender and let it empower her.
If a female child says, "I want to be the first women president" or "I want to win the GSL," I will tell her to try hard, don't give up, and reach for the stars.
First of all, I'm not sure that the athletic type stamina that runners & other athletes need is related to starcraft at all.
Obviously there are physiological/genetic differences between men and women, but we don't know exactly which "female" characteristics are due to physiology and which are simply artificial societal constructs. It seems to me, women especially should assume the latter and work as hard as possible, while challenging all of societies assumptions that women are "weak, emotional, etc."
Overall, TossGirl's mindset seems counterproductive for both herself and women in general. There have been countless studies showing that your expectations for yourself hugely affect your performance; i.e. if she assumes that she won't be able to practice very long because she's female, her brain will make that a reality.
If there was a difference, sports players have far more skill than the normal person, but e-sports progamers don't have that big of a skill gap between the general public. As an example, if you compared the skills of Park Ji-Sung from Manchester United and some player from beer league, the skill gap is huge. In comparison, I don't think there is that big of a skill gap between Jaedong and the winner of a local PC bang tournament.
ewwwwwwwwww gross
YES!
WTF? I was reading the interviews and when she said that I was absolutely fucking stunned.... How ridiculous... Especially from HER.
huh? please tell me shes not commentating BW... If she is she should be immediately fired imo... disgusting T_T
OGN's caster Jung So-Lim said this.
she's the one with the really retardedly annoying voice
What I dont understand, is why she have the job? Is it only cause she is female? If that is the case, I can understand their frustration in that they dont feel cut for the job, but got it anyway cause of being female. Cant be fun having a job you dont know exactly why. Wish people could just be straight with them. Either tell them as it is, that their role is to only be "middleman" in the commentating, that they are not suppose to show off climax voice casting, or saying smart things.
she's been around since the dawn of time (i remember seeing her doing wcg 2002 with gametv). i guess its just a sign of respect from ogn to keep her around because she's been around for so long.
On January 04 2011 15:36 [Azn]Nada wrote: was I the only one who saw the title and thought this was going to be an argument that BW was a culture, not Blizzard's (One Man's) possession?
I thought this too.
I did too, honestly? Thought that it was some form of appeal to Blizzard from OnGameNet or MBC.
Thank you very much OP for doing the work of translating this for us. I'm glad that the Korean media is interested enough to facilitate discussion of the issue. =)
I opened the Economist to a random page today and saw an article about a new book on sexual determination. Check it out: http://www.economist.com/node/17797036
Here's a quote (from the article, not the book):
In some ways men and women are consistently different, but the significant differences in their brains only pertain to those primitive behaviours which include mating, parenting and aggression. When it comes to higher functions—the skills that arguably make us human—the similarities outweigh the differences. On average, men and women score equally on mathematical and reading ability, for example. Reported differences in empathy, leadership and verbal fluency have all been exaggerated, according to Mr Pfaff. Where differences in these skills do exist, the causes may lie in the social context.
I am not a sociologist, nor a microbiologist, but I find this fascinating. It's very difficult to talk about gender and sexual traits because, as the article mentions (and I'm sure the book goes way more into this), even things such as maternal stress can cause a baby with male DNA to get more feminine traits, and there are huge societal factors at play too.
So it's way too glib to just say "of course the reason there are no women in games is women can't play strategy games." It's more complicated than that, and I'm sure even the "aggression" displayed in male brains is a specific kind, bla bla bla.
It's way complicated, and I don't have the answers, but I do want to echo what I saw elsewhere on this page:
On January 07 2011 07:13 Haemonculus wrote: And until then? Shall we stay home in the kitchen so as not to ruffle any feathers? This sense of hostility is largely responsible for there not being many women involved in gaming in the first place.
Regardless of the top-level stuff where issues of physical stamina and stuff matter... It's kinda hard to get girls (in casual play) to stay around because the environment's pretty hostile. You get into a kind of chicken-and-egg situation.... girls are rare, so people say things like "you play like a girl" as an insult, and then girls are like "that's hostile" and then they don't play, so it self-perpetuates.
I don't know what to do about it. But I'm glad we're sort of talking about it. Thank you again, OP. The article meant a lot to me... the women's candor, and the inside look at esports.
When she said she wishes to be a man in her next life every day when she wakes up... that is just fucking heartbreaking. I don't even think that. I have no idea what to do about it, and change takes a long time, but I'm glad they're working hard to do what they love. It's very inspirational, even if it is fucking depressing at the same time.
I think it is supposed to be about transvestite players coming out and admitting they aren't men. It wouldn't be too far fetched, we already know that Flash is a robot
On January 07 2011 13:26 judytuna wrote: Thank you very much OP for doing the work of translating this for us. I'm glad that the Korean media is interested enough to facilitate discussion of the issue. =)
I opened the Economist to a random page today and saw an article about a new book on sexual determination. Check it out: http://www.economist.com/node/17797036
In some ways men and women are consistently different, but the significant differences in their brains only pertain to those primitive behaviours which include mating, parenting and aggression. When it comes to higher functions—the skills that arguably make us human—the similarities outweigh the differences. On average, men and women score equally on mathematical and reading ability, for example. Reported differences in empathy, leadership and verbal fluency have all been exaggerated, according to Mr Pfaff. Where differences in these skills do exist, the causes may lie in the social context.
I am not a sociologist, nor a microbiologist, but I find this fascinating. It's very difficult to talk about gender and sexual traits because, as the article mentions (and I'm sure the book goes way more into this), even things such as maternal stress can cause a baby with male DNA to get more feminine traits, and there are huge societal factors at play too.
So it's way too glib to just say "of course the reason there are no women in games is women can't play strategy games." It's more complicated than that, and I'm sure even the "aggression" displayed in male brains is a specific kind, bla bla bla.
It's way complicated, and I don't have the answers, but I do want to echo what I saw elsewhere on this page:
On January 07 2011 07:13 Haemonculus wrote: And until then? Shall we stay home in the kitchen so as not to ruffle any feathers? This sense of hostility is largely responsible for there not being many women involved in gaming in the first place.
Regardless of the top-level stuff where issues of physical stamina and stuff matter... It's kinda hard to get girls (in casual play) to stay around because the environment's pretty hostile. You get into a kind of chicken-and-egg situation.... girls are rare, so people say things like "you play like a girl" as an insult, and then girls are like "that's hostile" and then they don't play, so it self-perpetuates.
I don't know what to do about it. But I'm glad we're sort of talking about it. Thank you again, OP. The article meant a lot to me... the women's candor, and the inside look at esports.
When she said she wishes to be a man in her next life every day when she wakes up... that is just fucking heartbreaking. I don't even think that. I have no idea what to do about it, and change takes a long time, but I'm glad they're working hard to do what they love. It's very inspirational, even if it is fucking depressing at the same time.
If she backs off cause someone tells her "you play like a girl" you simply do not have what it takes in a competive environment. In fact, I thought girls was much stronger then men when it comes to insults like this. Have you seen how hostile women can be towards another? So women can take this just fine, the critics and insults.
Believing in yourself is a challenge for everyone. Having society doubt you, look down on you for choosing a "male" lifestyle instead of being a loving mother is for sure something that is worth talking about. But this is cases for men too, many times they also had to just go for it despite having family, society and what not doubt and tell you different. Someone has to be the first and become a rolemodel, its hard, but its just what it is. Not everyone is born into everyone believing in you. Having kids is not an easy task, and its true that the mother is given a lot of responsibility in that regard. Cant imagine having a stressful, competive lifestyle with insults and fan pressure is any good while caring a child. Even after birth having a mother that feel stress and pressure is not really good either. I dont really have any idea what to do about that.
But i find it very revealing that these women blamed female's own weaknesses which may make it unsuitable for this line of job instead of complaining about society ( aside from the drinking problem)
I found this the most disturbing. Both that you'd think this is a good thing, and that you're correct this is along the lines their thoughts were moving. Some of the worst things said were 'I can't control my emotions like the male reporters' 'criticism is harder for me because I'm a woman.' I haven't read the whole article yet (just the first two part) and I want to read the rest later, but this is really revealing about Korea's culture and gender profiling. If you think the above two quotations are reasonable, you might as well go back to the 19th century when 'hysteria' was the catch all disease for every problem women have ever had. That these women are under more stress because they feel they are being watched more closely is understandable, but that they think women are naturally more emotional? That's very silly. Things like 'I wish I had a male voice' also sound like excuses, as if all males have good exciting voices, and as if an excited female voice is unappealing. I can't totally blame her for thinking this way, but this is clearly her feeling ashamed of being female, which is quite tragic.
I was also really shocked at the question 'do you ever wish you were a man' because it is a question that of course is leading, but I'm more surprised that it wasn't offensive at all to them. That would be a pretty appalling question where I'm from. Akin to saying 'do you wish you were white.' The answer should be "I wish people weren't racist.'
On January 07 2011 06:02 ptbl wrote: [embedded quotes omitted] You have an interesting perspective regarding the dynamics of women empowerment. Personally, I would tell my daughter, if I also had one () to reach for the stars, create her own path in life, and try your best. I think we can agree that you don't want women in our society to see themselves as second class citizens and inferior to men. After all, this isn't the middle ages!
I think Tossgirl has the wrong attitude. She's already set herself back 10 steps if she's blaming her lack of success from being female. Though, I don't blame her. When an entire culture perpetuates that females are inferior, weak, and "emotionally unstable," it's hard to fight against these baseless perceptions.She should draw strength from her gender and let it empower her.
If a female child says, "I want to be the first women president" or "I want to win the GSL," I will tell her to try hard, don't give up, and reach for the stars.
Well, let me be candid.
1) You make a very good point when you say that it's hard to fight socio-cultural stereotypes. It's just true and is surely something to be tackled if we want to achieve equality.
2) Telling anyone to reach for the stars is nonsense, since first of all it's as vague as can be and implies that they're (going to be) trying the -literally- impossible. What's better? Making sure they understand (at least) three things. First, that if they want to be successful, they'll have to work hard, no matter what it is they want to achieve and no matter how talented they are. Second, they should listen to what others have to say, but be critical nonetheless, see if there are things others could be wrong about - and find out. Third, tell them that no matter what happens, they can always turn to you for support. Only if you mean it, of course.
3) Telling someone they should "never give up" is nonsense too, because at the very least you need to abandon strategies that don't work, and sometimes even goals. What they should do instead is a careful assessment of whether 'going for it' is worth the effort. If they do what they love and aren't killing themselves in the process of working toward a goal they will de facto not achieve in their lifetime, so be it, but sometimes the hassle just ain't worth it. Life's just more complicated than that.
4) Drawing strength from one's gender? What? Bollocks. You can at best gain strength by someone's support, be it direct or indirect.
edit: Fantastic article by the way, thanks Canucks.
On January 07 2011 06:02 ptbl wrote: [embedded quotes omitted] You have an interesting perspective regarding the dynamics of women empowerment. Personally, I would tell my daughter, if I also had one () to reach for the stars, create her own path in life, and try your best. I think we can agree that you don't want women in our society to see themselves as second class citizens and inferior to men. After all, this isn't the middle ages!
I think Tossgirl has the wrong attitude. She's already set herself back 10 steps if she's blaming her lack of success from being female. Though, I don't blame her. When an entire culture perpetuates that females are inferior, weak, and "emotionally unstable," it's hard to fight against these baseless perceptions.She should draw strength from her gender and let it empower her.
If a female child says, "I want to be the first women president" or "I want to win the GSL," I will tell her to try hard, don't give up, and reach for the stars.
Well, let me be candid. 1) You make a very good point when you say that it's hard to fight socio-cultural stereotypes. It's just true and is surely something to be tackled if we want to achieve equality. 2) Telling anyone to reach for the stars is nonsense, since first of all it's as vague as can be and implies that they're (going to be) trying the -literally- impossible. What's better? Making sure they understand (at least) three things. First, that if they want to be successful, they'll have to work hard, no matter what it is they want to achieve and no matter how talented they are. Second, they should listen to what others have to say, but be critical nonetheless, see if there are things others could be wrong about - and find out. Third, tell them that no matter what happens, they can always turn to you for support. Only if you mean it, of course. 3) Telling someone they should "never give up" is nonsense too, because at the very least you need to abandon strategies that don't work, and sometimes even goals. What they should do instead is a careful assessment of whether 'going for it' is worth the effort. If they do what they love and aren't killing themselves in the process of working toward a goal they will de facto not achieve in their lifetime, so be it, but sometimes the hassle just ain't worth it. 4) Drawing strength from one's gender? What? Bollocks. You can at best gain strength by someone's support, be it direct or indirect.
edit: Fantastic article by the way, thanks Canucks.
If you never reach for the stars, then you'll never reach your full potential. How can you know your full abilities and potential without trying your best? How do you know someone can't be the CEO of a company without setting their goals high? People should at least make the effort to aim high. If they fail, then at least they know that they tried and gave 100%.
In my book, being persistent is an admirable quality. Let's say someone is trying to lose weight to live a healthier lifestyle. They are having some difficulties trying to reach their goals. Are you really going to tell them to "give up." No, I am going to tell them to keep at it and don't give up. I would give them emotional and physical support. Someone has cancer and they are fighting with every fiber of their being to stay alive. Are you going to tell them to give up? You might, but I won't. I'm going to tell them to never give up.
The whole feminist, civil rights, gay rights movement was about drawing strength from themselves. Haven't you heard of "gay pride," "girl power," "black power," "women empowerment"? During segregation blacks were treated as second class citizens because of their skin color. Thus, during the civil rights movement they took pride from their skin color and empowered themselves. The same thing happened in the 70s and 80s during the feminist and women rights movement. Women were tired of being treated as dirt, i.e. "women should only stay in the kitchen and make babies" etc. Women were treated as inferior because of their gender. Thus, they took the fact that they were women to take as a form of empowerment. To use it as a source of power, hope, and authority.
Jung So-Lim: I frequently think that things would be different if I was a male when I broadcast. My voice can't hold it whenever I try to increase my volume during moments of climax.
Jung So-Lim: I frequently think that things would be different if I was a male when I broadcast. My voice can't hold it whenever I try to increase my volume during moments of climax.
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
uh, no. Men are superior in sports because we have more muscle mass and we don't have mammaries and ovaries, which in terms of physical activity are useless organs that throw off our center of gravity. It has nothing directly to do with stamina, although having those useless organs obviously puts more stress on your body, ie you get tired fast. Women can easily overcome this by simply working out a harder, but at the world class level men will always win.
I think the point he made still stands Tossgirl commented on how her physiology makes her less able to practice > 10 hours a day. less practice she gets the worse she is -> the worse she is the more she loses -> the more she loses the ore she cries.
Well, as previously stated I don't think the difference in physiology between men and women matter a lot. I think the requirements to be a SC-pro are similar to what you need to be a concert pianist, manual dexterity, practice 10+ hours/day etc. There are numerous great female concert pianists today, and you certainly don't hear them complaining that they lack the stamina to practice as much as their male counterparts...
Also, I think it was Idra who said in an interview recently that having a "Westerner house" in Korea was really helpful in how they could practice and share experiences without the language/social barriers, and that this will undoubtly be important to break the korean dominance in the scene. So I would think the social barriers e-sports females encounter is a big part of the problem, as they state in the interview.
I know I'm a terrible person for this, but I couldn't help but chuckle after thinking of the other abbreviation that "trans" is used for, in conjunction with "it's not just for men."
On January 05 2011 21:02 Dectilon wrote: If you lack stamina, start going to the gym or something. Nine times out of ten fatigue from long periods of focus (like studying) can be averted by getting more oxygen to your brain. And stronger muscles gives better hand precision to an extent.
It's clear that South Korea has a ways to go on the equality issue. Not only on the political side, but on the social side too if someone makes that excuse seriously. I've heard some really dumb statements about why there are way more men in e-sports than women (I think the most retarded I've heard was that "men have a natural hunting instinct"), and the idea that it would be because women "lack stamina" is one of them.
As for mean comments, I think most of everyone would prefer not to be called names. But this is the internet, and that shit isn't going away. I don't think being susceptible to bullying is a female trait either. If you're bullied and you don't feel you get support from your peers then it'll hurt more regardless of what the situation otherwise is. Of course, people react differently to abuse, but saying it's gender-specific rather than societal is wrong.
I'm sure most of everyone here would like to see women make it into the best leagues on their own ability, and I don't think anyone seriously believes that's impossible by any means.
Women do lack stamina. Look at every other sport and tell me in which one a woman holds a record over a man. Swimming, running, jumping, soccer, hockey, basketball. Men are clearly superior.
uh, no. Men are superior in sports because we have more muscle mass and we don't have mammaries and ovaries, which in terms of physical activity are useless organs that throw off our center of gravity. It has nothing directly to do with stamina, although having those useless organs obviously puts more stress on your body, ie you get tired fast. Women can easily overcome this by simply working out a harder, but at the world class level men will always win.
I think the point he made still stands Tossgirl commented on how her physiology makes her less able to practice > 10 hours a day. less practice she gets the worse she is -> the worse she is the more she loses -> the more she loses the ore she cries.
Well, as previously stated I don't think the difference in physiology between men and women matter a lot. I think the requirements to be a SC-pro are similar to what you need to be a concert pianist, manual dexterity, practice 10+ hours/day etc. There are numerous great female concert pianists today, and you certainly don't hear them complaining that they lack the stamina to practice as much as their male counterparts...
Also, I think it was Idra who said in an interview recently that having a "Westerner house" in Korea was really helpful in how they could practice and share experiences without the language/social barriers, and that this will undoubtly be important to break the korean dominance in the scene. So I would think the social barriers e-sports females encounter is a big part of the problem, as they state in the interview.
tossgirl has all the mechanical ability necessary for winning osl/msl.. she has 350 apm for gods sake. Its about the mind, creativity, adaption
Lim Soo-Ra's a hottie, she has the looks and height and figure of a fashion model. : ) I personally really respect these women for toughing it out against sterotypes, but every successful career has struggles, hope they make it to greatness.
On January 04 2011 14:45 Crunchums wrote: it's good to see that they're not complaining about sexism (at least so far), rather they are just saying that having no Y chromosome is bad for a career in esports
They aren't complaining much about sexism because it's not part of the Korean culture to consider this. Gender roles are much more conservative and traditional in Korea, and it's a little depressing to see that they are still so heavily boxed into these roles that they are otherwise overwhelmed by the thought of "growing up, having to get married, having to give birth, and then having to devote all time to the child" and such.
Obviously this is a major difference in perception and they don't see this as unusual thinking at all, but it's clearly shoehorned gender roles like this that result in major disparities.
Except those roles are still expected of women in the "progressive, enlightened West." It's just less overt. With the exception of a few girls I met in college, almost all girls I know, no matter what race they are, have talked about marriage or children.
I know Westerners love to think of Asian women as poor, oppressed prisoners just waiting to be liberated, but you're delusional if you think gender inequality isn't just as bad in the West.
EPT
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I'm not sure if that means we'll be seeing her on the proleague bench or not. But honestly, some of STX's player management decisions confuse me. 
