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I just read some news regarding this WCG in Seattle. Just wow
Long story short
When the Taiwanese 3rd place winner in Project Gotham Racing, YOU-CHEN LIU went up stage to get his prize, he showed a Taiwan flag, just like most other players would do, showing the flag representing their region.
But when he was done and started to head back for the hotel, around 10 players/media from China surrounded him, and started to insult YOU-CHEN LIU, saying he was a "son of a bitch", "wtf was that flag on stage" etc, and tried to force him to hand over the flag.
The part I was stunned was, the two main guys leading the group was PJ from starcraft, and Xiao.T from warcraft3.
Some pushing, shoving seemed to have happened as well. The police
arrived later and PJ denied that any violence occurred.
At the end, the team Taiwan decided not to join the ending ceremony party in the evening to avoid team China.
I am Canadian-Chinese myself, and I don't want to bring in any political crap into this thread, but what the hell man, where is the respect for another player?
I still can't believe PJ did that
(Googled English source) http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=304106
Chinese version that I read:
+ Show Spoiler +〔記者陳英傑美國西雅圖報導〕中國打壓台灣事件再一例！台灣電玩好手劉祐辰在美國西雅圖所舉辦的世界電玩大賽（ＷＣＧ）「世界街頭賽車3」中，勇奪第三名，在上台領獎時拿出國旗，結果引來中國選手的挑釁，下台後動手動腳，甚至罵出「你們是狗生出來的嗎？」的惡劣字眼。
中國選手爆粗口、動手動腳
頒獎典禮上，代表台灣領取第三名的劉祐辰，在頒獎前就已打算在台上亮出國旗，到頒獎結束前一切都無異狀，然而台灣選手們準備離開會場，返回選手村休息時，數十位中國選手及媒體，便向前嗆聲，質疑頒獎典禮上的是什麼旗幟，甚至要脅我選手交出劉祐辰，辱罵台灣選手是「狗生出來的」。
嗆聲我選手的，以「星海爭霸」拿下第二名的沙俊春，及「魔獸爭霸3」十六強賽即被淘汰的陸維梁為首，不但先口頭恐嚇，甚至對我選手動粗，隨後被會場保全架開。
當我選手準備上車返回選手村，中國選手又跑了出來，試圖阻擋我選手上車，險些發生二次衝突，西雅圖警方到達現場時，沙俊春馬上否認有踢人的攻擊動作，我方則緊急找來外交部駐西雅圖辦事處代表甄國清處理。世界電玩大賽主辦單位為保護我選手安全，更是指派專車接送回選手村。
選手們返回選手村Doubletree飯店時，卻發現中國選手正等在我選手準備進房的門口，打算繼續鬧事，我選手因此改從其他門口回到房間，並要求飯店人員轉告中國領隊約束自己隊員，並請保安人員加強巡房。另避免中國選手對我選手挑釁恐嚇，我方領隊要求選手們留在房間，決定不參加惜別晚會。
台灣選手晚上都在飯店房間休息，為避免危險，原本睡在不同區的領隊劉俊宏及「極速快感：玩命山道」的劉明貴，都與其他選手集中同一區房間休息。中國選手則將搭乘八日下午一點（台灣時間九日淩晨四點）班機前往舊金山轉機返回中國。
二○○一年台灣好手曾政承奪下「世紀帝國2」冠軍時，在台上揮舞著國旗，同樣也遭到中國媒體的抗議，我方此次循例向主辦單位提出嚴正抗議。
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Proof?
O man I just can't see PJ punking some kid. LMAO
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To be completely fair, the official WCG representation of "Chinese Taipei" is a different flag. I can see how some peopel can be disagreeable with what he did, but causing problems back at the hotel, that's overboard.
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I can't imagine PJ assaulting someone like that... at all..
Either way, That's some really shitty behaviour.
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I read a chinese news article on the web, doesn't really mention the source
However I did manage to google an short english version to prove that the incident actually happened
I edited the first post
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stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever
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that is so fucked up on so many levels..
On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever
so? The Taiwanese guy should have the right to represent his country.
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On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever
Well if the police and security guards were involved, there has to be more than that, especially when the flag is ALREADY down.
Don't forget he was leaving the center.
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51375 Posts
What the fuck? This is disgraceful for the Chinese, especially for PJ and xiaOt (isn't he like 17)? As much as these players are excellent skill-wise, their reuputation is going to be extremely tarnished from this incident.
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On October 09 2007 19:26 EpiK wrote:that is so fucked up on so many levels.. Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever so? The Taiwanese guy should have the right to represent his country.
Taiwan is a province of China
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On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever
pj shouldn't have said it anyway.
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news about angry gamers going into fights always make me lol
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i can see where this thread is gonna lead eventually.
nowhere. we should stop talking about this until we get some real credible source to cover this incident, not some biased news from china or taiwan's part
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 09 2007 19:26 EpiK wrote:that is so fucked up on so many levels.. Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever so? The Taiwanese guy should have the right to represent his country.
On October 09 2007 19:32 SpringWind wrote:
Taiwan is a province of China
there are a fair number of people who will disagree with you on that point...
nothing political, but your view is just one side of it
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Damn Chinese think they own the whole world.
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In China, when CCTV news tells you, FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL FALUN GONG IS EVIL, and you see it on brochures sent to your house and your grandparents and parents all tell you the same shit because they saw it on the news, no matter how smart or educated you are, you are not gonna be like, hey maybe I'll hold off on judgement until I've done a good deal of research on this. So when everything you see and everyone you know tells you what the deal with Taiwan is because CCTV is obviously a respected and professional source on foreign policy and doesn't block wikipedia, (fuck whoever did that), sometimes people will do stuff that is slightly irrational like preventing someone from raising his own country's flag at a world cyber games event. There's actually some very complicated behavioral psychology stuff behind it. Pj is not an expert on chinese foreign affairs but he still felt strong enough about this matter to assume a hostile attitude towards a stranger. I hope he'll just enjoy his second place finish and be happy
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On October 09 2007 19:32 SpringWind wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 19:26 EpiK wrote:that is so fucked up on so many levels.. On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever so? The Taiwanese guy should have the right to represent his country. Taiwan is a province of China About as much as China is a province of Taiwan. Taiwan also claims Tuva(an area in russia iirc) and some other areas they dont have control over. But it does not seem like anyone from Taiwan get pissed off when someone shows a Chinese flag. But I might have missed that part.
EDIT:Do Taiwan act similar in this area?
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On October 09 2007 20:00 ambit!ous1 wrote:
Damn Chinese think they own the whole world.
Nope, "damn Chinese" just want their rebel island back.
What PJ did was petty and foolish, but Taiwan IS part of China. They speak the same language, they share the same history, yet the Taiwanese act like they are superior to their mainland cousins for reasons yet to be determined. I do not wish to offend any Taiwanese on the these boards, but I live in China, so while I may be a little biased. I think though one may agree with me in saying that this entire business is an embarrassment for all parties involved, both the Chinese and the Taiwanese.
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Taiwan is only recognized as a country by two other countries in the world. And no, the US is not one of them. I'm not sure what the political ramifications are 100% about the whole thing though.
PS. In terms of world diplomacy speaking, Taiwan is actually considered a province of China by pretty much the entire world. You kids need to study your political science. 
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what was he supposed to do ?? Raise a Chinese flag, i mean attacking anyone over shit like that is pathetic
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On October 09 2007 22:22 besiger.cry wrote:
what was he supposed to do ?? Raise a Chinese flag, i mean attacking anyone over shit like that is pathetic
Clearly you guys don't realize this so I'll have to say it again. TAIWAN IS A PROVINCE OF CHINA. The Taiwanese flag is NOT considered a legitimate flag by most parts of the world. That is why Taiwan is not recognized as part of the UN ever since Mainland China was considered "China"
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why should he care what * most parts of the world * have to say. If people are arguing over it, it means that there are people who would want Taiwan to be independant, why should he raise a Chinese flag ?
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On October 09 2007 20:00 ambit!ous1 wrote:
Damn Chinese think they own the whole world.
Damn Americans think they own the whole world.
See where i'm leading to or should i call cpt obvious to show you?
As KissBlade said, Taiwan is not a country, it's an autonomous (afaik) province of China.
And if Pj and other chinese guys only told him to let the flag down, whitout any "fight" and "arguing" it's not a big deal, although it would have been better if they would've just keep quiet. The chinese surely felt offended by this.
If some guy from Transnistria (Moldova) would in some ceremony bring up their flag (they don't only exist... it's only a separatist pro-russian region) instead of moldovian flag even i would be very pissed at them.
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
On October 09 2007 22:25 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 22:22 besiger.cry wrote:
what was he supposed to do ?? Raise a Chinese flag, i mean attacking anyone over shit like that is pathetic Clearly you guys don't realize this so I'll have to say it again. TAIWAN IS A PROVINCE OF CHINA. The Taiwanese flag is NOT considered a legitimate flag by most parts of the world. That is why Taiwan is not recognized as part of the UN ever since Mainland China was considered "China"
And clearly you don't realize that the people of Taiwan consider themselves an independant country. For all intents and purposes, they are; they're economically and socially independant, just not officially in writing. It all comes down to pride...
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On October 09 2007 22:18 KissBlade wrote:Taiwan is only recognized as a country by two other countries in the world. And no, the US is not one of them. I'm not sure what the political ramifications are 100% about the whole thing though. PS. In terms of world diplomacy speaking, Taiwan is actually considered a province of China by pretty much the entire world. You kids need to study your political science.
wrongo. you need to study your political science too : )
Burkina Faso, El Salvador, Belize, Nauru, Palau, Tuvalu, Marshall Islands, Solomon Islands, Kiribati, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Paraguay, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Nicaragua, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Panama, the Vatican, Swaziland, Malawi, Sao Tome and Principe, Haiti, Gambia and St. Kitts and Nevis, Costa Rica
random verification:
Site 1 ( plus Costa Rica)
Site 2
Since China claims Taiwan as its provoince, the international community does not want to contradict China on this matter. Thus, Taiwan is not a member of the United Nations. Plus, only 25 countries (as of early 2007) recognize Taiwan as an independent country and they recognize it as the "only" China. Due to this political pressure from China, Taiwan does not maintain an embassy in the United States and the United States (among most other countries) has not recognized Taiwan since January 1, 1979.
it's 25 countries yo.
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if they are considered just a chinese province whats up with this ?
** On September 30, 2007, Taiwan's ruling Democratic Progressive Party approved a resolution asserting separate identity from China and called for the enactment of a new constitution for a "normal country" . It called also for general use of "Taiwan" as the island's name, without abolishing its formal name, the Republic of China **
i mean its his damn right to raise his flag without someone making dibs on his country attacking him
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aside from the name, taiwan is independent of china.
the culture, the economy, everything. it doesn't matter what the chinese say, you can't just change what taiwanese identify themselves as by insulting and assaulting them.
the same flag thing happens every year for taiwanese people. every international events, they try to raise their flags, their national anthem, whatever, and every year some chinese would try to solve what they perceive as a problem to their own identity with violence.
next time the chinese think of this as an important problem, why dont they get down to the basics and ask themselves why the taiwanese don't want to be identified and associated with them? look at what's displayed in these interactions, the chinese try to solve the problem by violence. why would any self respecting taiwanese want to be associated with them? the chinese put their worst side up to advertise everyday and you're wondering why the taiwanese people can't "see your way"?
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wouldnt you guys be pissed off if you see yourself as a country and others dont and then some mob of people from the country you separated yourself from for many centuries told you to put the flag down? obviously there are more words than "put the flag down"
i dont believe they just said "put the flag down" at all
but thats my opinion
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Utterly disgraceful behavoiur. Taiwan have been a de facto independent country for about 60 years anyway, you'd think they'd give up on it already, particulary since it haven't been ruled by mainland China since the imperial era. ~~
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 09 2007 22:25 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 22:22 besiger.cry wrote:
what was he supposed to do ?? Raise a Chinese flag, i mean attacking anyone over shit like that is pathetic Clearly you guys don't realize this so I'll have to say it again. TAIWAN IS A PROVINCE OF CHINA. The Taiwanese flag is NOT considered a legitimate flag by most parts of the world. That is why Taiwan is not recognized as part of the UN ever since Mainland China was considered "China"
Who gives a shit? WCG clearly does recognize Taiwan as a seperate country or why would they have representatives from there?
Whatever the politics behind it, or your personal feelings are, common god damn courtesy demands that you shut the fuck up and applaud him.
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On October 09 2007 22:43 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 22:25 KissBlade wrote:On October 09 2007 22:22 besiger.cry wrote:
what was he supposed to do ?? Raise a Chinese flag, i mean attacking anyone over shit like that is pathetic Clearly you guys don't realize this so I'll have to say it again. TAIWAN IS A PROVINCE OF CHINA. The Taiwanese flag is NOT considered a legitimate flag by most parts of the world. That is why Taiwan is not recognized as part of the UN ever since Mainland China was considered "China" And clearly you don't realize that the people of Taiwan consider themselves an independant country. For all intents and purposes, they are; they're economically and socially independant, just not officially in writing. It all comes down to pride...
Only ~50% of them support independence.
The number is rising, but it is true that historically, Taiwan is indisputably part of China. I mean, until 2000, it has been ruled by the KMT, a party which was fighting the Communist Party for control of China. They fled to Taiwan and never gave up the fight. The place's name is still Republic of China.
There has been a lot of foreign interference that has prevented the island from being politically reclaimed. Sure, now the few generations that followed feel different than their mainland roots due to the separation, but in geopolitical terms, these 40 or so years are pretty insignificant. How would you feel if foreigners interfered time and time again in your civil war and prevented a unified government, then just waited it out until the generations diverged enough to claim, "hey, these are defacto different states now." Its only that way because other countries did not respect Chinese sovereignty in the first place.
And really I don't feel that besides the obvious prosperity, the cultural difference between Taiwan and mainland China is that different. All the provinces are somewhat unique, and look at Hong Kong. I think it can reassimilate fine, just requires delicate handling, and the Chinese government has a ways to go.
Edit: Just to say, I don't support this disgraceful behavior at all. I just don't like the consensus that Taiwan's independence is considered a slam dunk.
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I am not surprised that Pj did that as he also once before agreed for political reasons to cheat on the place he actually had in WCG China, it only got under pressure fixed. So who wonders that Sen suddenly uses chin flag now after beeing invited to chinese tournaments?
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The Pj incident was largely Wufan's doing, and even so it had nothing to do with politics, it was for the sole purpose of making him look good for skt1. Also it was WCG Shanghai, not China.
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and even if it was Pj's doing, what does that have to do with this incident?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I love how whenever china even gets mentioned on TL, the thread errupts into massive shit show.
Typical TL thread regarding china
Kennigit: i like chinese dogs
post 2) yeah chinese dogs are kinda cool i guess
post 3)...what's your problem with the chinese?
post 4) WTF WE DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE CHINESE
post 5) Err clearly you do or you wouldn't have brought it up
post 6) omg have you guys heard about the human rights allegations?
post 7) someone say china? my cousin went there and said it smelled bad
post 8) ZOMG YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO CHINA HOW DARE YOU SAY IT SMELLS BAD!!!
post 9) i like dogs too
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
On October 09 2007 23:41 zulu_nation8 wrote:
and even if it was Pj's doing, what does that have to do with this incident?
Insight into his personality/credibility? *shrugs*
What incident are you guys talking about anyways?
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about 10% or less of people in Taiwan think they're more chinese than taiwanese.
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Netherlands19129 Posts
On October 09 2007 23:50 Kennigit wrote:
I love how whenever china even gets mentioned on TL, the thread errupts into massive shit show.
Typical TL thread regarding china
Kennigit: i like chinese dogs
post 2) yeah chinese dogs are kinda cool i guess
post 3)...what's your problem with the chinese?
post 4) WTF WE DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE CHINESE
post 5) Err clearly you do or you wouldn't have brought it up
post 6) omg have you guys heard about the human rights allegations?
post 7) someone say china? my cousin went there and said it smelled bad
post 8) ZOMG YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO CHINA HOW DARE YOU SAY IT SMELLS BAD!!!
post 9) i like dogs too
Dogs taste good, chinese food tastes good, hmmm chinese dogs ;oooooooo
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
Eh Kennigit? I've never seen any flames/stupid shit about China/Chinese other than the China vs. Taiwan debate.
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Only reason why so few countries consider Taiwan an independent country is because they want to keep politically and more importantly, economically friendly with China.
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The chinese government knows how to effectively control their people. Find a common foe or a common task, or better yet some burning wound of injustice for the whole nation. It´s hard to use logic, when you are emotionally involved.
Using similar historical reasoning I could claim Austria, Switzerland or even the Netherlands are just rebellious provinces of germany, which is ridiculous. Also I am sure there is a lot of envy because Taiwan was first to become a rich, developed country.
edit: I wouldn´t blame PJ personally, from the chinese people on the net one can tell that his reaction is what a typical chinese feels is right in this situation.
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[QUOTE]On October 09 2007 22:04 atheist13 wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 09 2007 20:00 ambit!ous1 wrote:
Damn Chinese think they own the whole world. [/QUOTE]
Nope, "damn Chinese" just want their rebel island back.......
Yea sure Tibet, Korea and Mongolia also want their land and history back.
" Damn Chinese think they own the whole world " <--- QFT
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On October 09 2007 23:54 AK-Nemesis wrote:
about 10% or less of people in Taiwan think they're more chinese than taiwanese.
Where do you get this percentage from? Because just so you know, I'm from the province of Taiwan and I consider myself Chinese.
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3861 Posts
It's like Texas thinking that they are their own country... 
I have Taiwanese friends who get really upset if you call them Chinese and ones who don't really care. I agree, it's mainly a pride thing.
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On October 09 2007 22:43 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 22:25 KissBlade wrote:On October 09 2007 22:22 besiger.cry wrote:
what was he supposed to do ?? Raise a Chinese flag, i mean attacking anyone over shit like that is pathetic Clearly you guys don't realize this so I'll have to say it again. TAIWAN IS A PROVINCE OF CHINA. The Taiwanese flag is NOT considered a legitimate flag by most parts of the world. That is why Taiwan is not recognized as part of the UN ever since Mainland China was considered "China" And clearly you don't realize that the people of Taiwan consider themselves an independant country. For all intents and purposes, they are; they're economically and socially independant, just not officially in writing. It all comes down to pride...
Once again, I'm from Taiwan. So I realize a good deal more than you on this topic. Most "conservative" Taiwanese people consider themselves "Chinese". They also tend to be more elitist and snobbish towards Mainland people because Taiwanese people tend to be more gentry while Mainland are more stereotyped to them as villagers.
On October 10 2007 00:24 lilsusie wrote:It's like Texas thinking that they are their own country... I have Taiwanese friends who get really upset if you call them Chinese and ones who don't really care. I agree, it's mainly a pride thing.
Pretty much. My father for example considers himself Chinese. (As does his siblings). My grandfather considers himself Taiwanese though if you asked him what his nationality is, he'll probably still say China.
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IT happened I was there and saw the whole thing lol pj actually was leading the group that asshole >.>
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On October 10 2007 00:26 -WGT-Stars- wrote:
IT happened I was there and saw the whole thing lol pj actually was leading the group that asshole >.>
This isn't about if it happened or not, this is about what PJ actually said. It doesn't matter if you were there as witness or not, did you know what PJ actually said? I doubt it because PJ doesn't speak very good English so unless you understand Mandarin...
The whole article was entirely told from the Taiwanese ministry so I'm pretty sure there's a certain bias to it all.
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On October 09 2007 22:46 besiger.cry wrote:
if they are considered just a chinese province whats up with this ?
** On September 30, 2007, Taiwan's ruling Democratic Progressive Party approved a resolution asserting separate identity from China and called for the enactment of a new constitution for a "normal country" . It called also for general use of "Taiwan" as the island's name, without abolishing its formal name, the Republic of China **
i mean its his damn right to raise his flag without someone making dibs on his country attacking him
The Confederacy during the Civil War did the same thing. Were they considered their own independant country during that time?
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about dogs, I've seen it on many many menus, we don't eat cats though, that's just not right
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wow if this is true pj is a fucking faggot and i wish that tawainese kid punched him out, obviously hes gonna represent his country by showing a flag what the fuck does that have to do with pj and his little chinese friends? mind ur own busniss and let him be, do you really think your tuff going at a 17 year old kid with a group and bullying him, if you were for real you woulda went alone and spoke with him individually without anyone else backing you up
if any country (yes taiwan is a country) is oppressed by another country (i.e china) the people will feel a sense of nationalism and that poor kid was trying to represent his country and his people, let him have his moment instead of trying to oppresse him like any colonialist country does, i dont know this taiwanese guy but reading this made me really sad and if this would have happened to someone like sen i would have been so fucking pissed, your a tool pj and u have no balls if you went up to a 17 year old kid with ur friends trying to provoke him
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
i want hong kong as an option on the TL country list  lolol
hmm... as for taiwan vs china...... no comment really. personally i treat taiwan like a seperate country.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On October 10 2007 00:35 mayap wrote:
wow if this is true pj is a fucking faggot and i wish that tawainese kid punched him out, obviously hes gonna represent his country by showing a flag what the fuck does that have to do with pj and his little chinese friends? mind ur own busniss and let him be, do you really think your tuff going at a 17 year old kid with a group and bullying him, if you were for real you woulda went alone and spoke with him individually without anyone else backing you up
if any country (yes taiwan is a country) is oppressed by another country (i.e china) the people will feel a sense of nationalism and that poor kid was trying to represent his country and his people, let him have his moment instead of trying to oppresse him like any colonialist country does, i dont know this taiwanese guy but reading this made me really sad and if this would have happened to someone like sen i would have been so fucking pissed, your a tool pj and u have no balls if you went up to a 17 year old kid with ur friends trying to provoke him
lol
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On October 10 2007 00:37 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 00:35 mayap wrote:
wow if this is true pj is a fucking faggot and i wish that tawainese kid punched him out, obviously hes gonna represent his country by showing a flag what the fuck does that have to do with pj and his little chinese friends? mind ur own busniss and let him be, do you really think your tuff going at a 17 year old kid with a group and bullying him, if you were for real you woulda went alone and spoke with him individually without anyone else backing you up
if any country (yes taiwan is a country) is oppressed by another country (i.e china) the people will feel a sense of nationalism and that poor kid was trying to represent his country and his people, let him have his moment instead of trying to oppresse him like any colonialist country does, i dont know this taiwanese guy but reading this made me really sad and if this would have happened to someone like sen i would have been so fucking pissed, your a tool pj and u have no balls if you went up to a 17 year old kid with ur friends trying to provoke him lol
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Taiwan people suffered many decades of brutal dictatorship under Japan and Chinese Nationalist exiles, until they finally gained democracy. Now all the people are doing much better under democracy. They aren't stupid or cowardly enough to just give all that away to to China, just because China says boo!.
China will never get Taiwan back peacefully because China will always be a terrible and corrupt dictatorship.
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On October 10 2007 00:44 NoName wrote:
Taiwan people suffered many decades of brutal dictatorship under Japan and Chinese Nationalist exiles, until they finally gained democracy. Now all the people are doing much better under democracy. They aren't stupid or cowardly enough to just give all that away to to China, just because China says boo!.
China will never get Taiwan back peacefully because China will always be a terrible and corrupt dictatorship.
What the hell are you talking about? The Chinese Nationalist Exiles are STILL in control of Taiwan. Is this post a joke?
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On October 10 2007 00:26 -WGT-Stars- wrote:
IT happened I was there and saw the whole thing lol pj actually was leading the group that asshole >.>
You stay out of this, afaik you were atacking, in gangs, homeless people (at least pj had some pseudo-real motivation behind his actions).
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu3.html (is funny).
The United Nations treats Taiwan as an autonomous province of China.
WCG does not recognise Taiwan as a country (like someone said). Chinese taipei had individual qualies because they are autonomous not because they are a country.
Now, many of you have a very (maybe too) subjective way of viewing things. The problem is you never put yourself in pj's (or other patriotic chinese) place.
China will never get Taiwan back peacefully because China will always be a terrible and corrupt dictatorship.
And how do you know they have a terrible and corrupt dictatorship?
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no you noob i was just saying its true because some one in the earlier post was asking they needed proof lol -_-;;;;;;;; and btw yes i dk what they said but d4d asked team leader of taiwan and he said that they started to threaten him about the flag and why did he wear it and so on>.>
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On October 10 2007 00:44 NoName wrote:
Taiwan people suffered many decades of brutal dictatorship under Japan and Chinese Nationalist exiles, until they finally gained democracy. Now all the people are doing much better under democracy. They aren't stupid or cowardly enough to just give all that away to to China, just because China says boo!.
China will never get Taiwan back peacefully because China will always be a terrible and corrupt dictatorship.
China will eventually take Taiwan back, peacefully or not peacefully -_-;;
1.6 billion marines > 100,000 Wraiths
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It's true cause China has more macro.
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is awesome32269 Posts
Oh here we go again with the starcraft jokes
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we could argue for days about whether taiwan is chinese or not, but the chinese still had no right whatsoever attacking him (if they did, i will assume they did, since witnesses are here and security was allegedly involved)
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...what's your problem with the Chinese?
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On October 10 2007 00:22 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 23:54 AK-Nemesis wrote:
about 10% or less of people in Taiwan think they're more chinese than taiwanese.
Where do you get this percentage from? Because just so you know, I'm from the province of Taiwan and I consider myself Chinese.
i was so hoping you wouldn't have to do this, because bringing our nationality out confounds people's judgment in this regard.
I'm a Taiwanese. I was born in taiwan, and moved out of taiwan at the age of 12. i'm now 23 and have been living back in taiwan for the past year. No, you do not see a single chinese flag on the streets of taiwan. No, majority of people here do not tell you they're chinese. No. my father does not say he's chinese, nor does my grandfather.
anyways, a poll was done from 1994 and 2002 the people that thought they were identified with chinese decreased from 25% to 10%
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Mainland Chinese are gansta
On October 10 2007 00:49 KissBlade wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? The Chinese Nationalist Exiles are STILL in control of Taiwan. Is this post a joke?
I suggest you read some news beyond your censorship firewall. (ooh, I wonder why China has to censor so much information. Maybe to keep its peons brainwashed.)
There is such a political philosophy known around the world as democracy, which works. So, yes, even though some descendants of Chinese nationalists are still in Taiwan, (many have emigrated), they are now just one political party of many in Taiwan, that the people choose from to govern, based on who they believe will do the best job. This is what is known around the world as democracy.
Taiwan also has universal health care and free education. Much more than can be said for China.
If things are so great in China, why do so many mainland Chinese try to illegally sneak out of China and into other countries around the world? China bullying is like when Iraq trying to invade Kuwait because Saddam Hussein was jealous and greedy for Kuwait success and wealth.
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On October 09 2007 22:04 atheist13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 20:00 ambit!ous1 wrote:
Damn Chinese think they own the whole world. Nope, "damn Chinese" just want their rebel island back. What PJ did was petty and foolish, but Taiwan IS part of China. They speak the same language, they share the same history, yet the Taiwanese act like they are superior to their mainland cousins for reasons yet to be determined. I do not wish to offend any Taiwanese on the these boards, but I live in China, so while I may be a little biased. I think though one may agree with me in saying that this entire business is an embarrassment for all parties involved, both the Chinese and the Taiwanese.
maybe it has everything to do with your Government and how they run things? Everyone knows china has serious problems.
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On October 10 2007 01:15 NoName wrote:Mainland Chinese are gansta Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 00:49 KissBlade wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? The Chinese Nationalist Exiles are STILL in control of Taiwan. Is this post a joke? I suggest you read some news beyond your censorship firewall. (ooh, I wonder why China has to censor so much information. Maybe to keep its peons brainwashed.) There is such a political philosophy known around the world as democracy, which works. So, yes, even though some descendants of Chinese nationalists are still in Taiwan, (many have emigrated), they are now just one political party of many in Taiwan, that the people choose from to govern, based on who they believe will do the best job. This is what is known around the world as democracy. Taiwan also has universal health care and free education. Much more than can be said for China. If things are so great in China, why do so many mainland Chinese try to illegally sneak out of China and into other countries around the world? China bullying is like when Iraq trying to invade Kuwait because Saddam Hussein was jealous and greedy for Kuwait success and wealth.
Sounds to me more like you're the one brainwashed. This post is so uneducated on so many levels I have no idea where to start dissecting. Honestly, I wouldnt' be surprised if this was George Bush posting.
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On October 10 2007 01:11 AK-Nemesis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 00:22 KissBlade wrote:On October 09 2007 23:54 AK-Nemesis wrote:
about 10% or less of people in Taiwan think they're more chinese than taiwanese.
Where do you get this percentage from? Because just so you know, I'm from the province of Taiwan and I consider myself Chinese. i was so hoping you wouldn't have to do this, because bringing our nationality out confounds people's judgment in this regard. I'm a Taiwanese. I was born in taiwan, and moved out of taiwan at the age of 12. i'm now 23 and have been living back in taiwan for the past year. No, you do not see a single chinese flag on the streets of taiwan. No, majority of people here do not tell you they're chinese. No. my father does not say he's chinese, nor does my grandfather.
If that's true than what is the Pan Blue political party stance towards the whole matter? (Pretty much the equivalent of the Republicans for people not informed of Taiwanese politics_
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interesting topic for me imo, I dont know the exact story behind China and Taiwan, but If its not like the US with the confederate flag(which represents racism and oppression) I dont see what the big deal is. Pretty fucking dumb to go after him over the flag when you consider you are just a pawn for the chinese government anyway.
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On October 09 2007 19:32 SpringWind wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 19:26 EpiK wrote:that is so fucked up on so many levels.. On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever so? The Taiwanese guy should have the right to represent his country. Taiwan is a province of China
No it's not. Stop claiming it
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On October 10 2007 01:26 Sadist wrote:
interesting topic for me imo, I dont know the exact story behind China and Taiwan, but If its not like the US with the confederate flag(which represents racism and oppression) I dont see what the big deal is. .
The civil war did not start over slavery.
PS. This isn't directed to you but it's amazing how people are accusing others of being misinformed by foreign government when they're so misled by their own about their history.
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On October 10 2007 01:27 {ToT}Strafe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2007 19:32 SpringWind wrote:On October 09 2007 19:26 EpiK wrote:that is so fucked up on so many levels.. On October 09 2007 19:25 SpringWind wrote:
stupid taiwan media
Pj just said to let him put that flag down,never said "son of a bitch" or whatever so? The Taiwanese guy should have the right to represent his country. Taiwan is a province of China No it's not. Stop claiming it
Yes it is. Stop denying that.
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On October 10 2007 01:22 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:15 NoName wrote:Mainland Chinese are gansta On October 10 2007 00:49 KissBlade wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? The Chinese Nationalist Exiles are STILL in control of Taiwan. Is this post a joke? I suggest you read some news beyond your censorship firewall. (ooh, I wonder why China has to censor so much information. Maybe to keep its peons brainwashed.) There is such a political philosophy known around the world as democracy, which works. So, yes, even though some descendants of Chinese nationalists are still in Taiwan, (many have emigrated), they are now just one political party of many in Taiwan, that the people choose from to govern, based on who they believe will do the best job. This is what is known around the world as democracy. Taiwan also has universal health care and free education. Much more than can be said for China. If things are so great in China, why do so many mainland Chinese try to illegally sneak out of China and into other countries around the world? China bullying is like when Iraq trying to invade Kuwait because Saddam Hussein was jealous and greedy for Kuwait success and wealth. Sounds to me more like you're the one brainwashed. This post is so uneducated on so many levels I have no idea where to start dissecting. Honestly, I wouldnt' be surprised if this was George Bush posting.
STFU NOOB
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On October 10 2007 01:29 ambit!ous1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:22 KissBlade wrote:On October 10 2007 01:15 NoName wrote:Mainland Chinese are gansta On October 10 2007 00:49 KissBlade wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? The Chinese Nationalist Exiles are STILL in control of Taiwan. Is this post a joke? I suggest you read some news beyond your censorship firewall. (ooh, I wonder why China has to censor so much information. Maybe to keep its peons brainwashed.) There is such a political philosophy known around the world as democracy, which works. So, yes, even though some descendants of Chinese nationalists are still in Taiwan, (many have emigrated), they are now just one political party of many in Taiwan, that the people choose from to govern, based on who they believe will do the best job. This is what is known around the world as democracy. Taiwan also has universal health care and free education. Much more than can be said for China. If things are so great in China, why do so many mainland Chinese try to illegally sneak out of China and into other countries around the world? China bullying is like when Iraq trying to invade Kuwait because Saddam Hussein was jealous and greedy for Kuwait success and wealth. Sounds to me more like you're the one brainwashed. This post is so uneducated on so many levels I have no idea where to start dissecting. Honestly, I wouldnt' be surprised if this was George Bush posting. STFU NOOB
Troll elsewhere for your attention?
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Taiwan is fucked no matter what T.T If china attacks them and takes them back forcefully either US helps or we sit back and watch but if we help that just might cause WW3 gg >.>
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On October 10 2007 01:32 -WGT-Stars- wrote:
Taiwan is fucked no matter what T.T If china attacks them and takes them back forcefully either US helps or we sit back and watch but if we help that just might cause WW3 gg >.>
I can say with absolute certainly US will not help militarily. (If they help at all) China is one of the US's major trading partners. China is a major powers in the world as well as occupant of one of the seats in the UN. Taiwan isn't even recognized by the US as an independant country.
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Chinese ppl get fucked around by their government, by them not mentioning historical events, filtering media and communication, and they still support their government so much.
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US is not gonna just sit there and watch as China rapes Taiwan. Taiwan is a good base for US to put China in check.
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On October 10 2007 01:35 himurakenshin wrote:
Chinese ppl get fucked around by their government, by them not mentioning historical events, filtering media and communication, and they still support their government so much.
YOU CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT EVERY OTHER COUNTRY.
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Civil war was indeed not started over slavery, but it was definitely a big factor. A better representation would certainly have to be the American Revolutionary. Seeing, as how many fled from England to avoid certain things there and to start a new life, the United States gained it's independence. Similarities, certainly....Taiwan has control over it's own government with no influence at all from it's Chinese counterparts. As I said before, countries don't recognize Taiwan as a country simply because they wish to keep friendly political and economic ties with China.
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Maybe PJ and the Chinese overrecated here, but you need to understand where they are coming from. This guy raising the flag of Taiwan is basically like a slap in the face to the Chinese, they had a right to be angry about it.
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angry, maybe, to attack, no way
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On October 10 2007 01:36 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:35 himurakenshin wrote:
Chinese ppl get fucked around by their government, by them not mentioning historical events, filtering media and communication, and they still support their government so much. YOU CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT EVERY OTHER COUNTRY.
I don't think so... look at the number of entertainers being anti-Bush administration. No problem. My friend was telling me about a Taiwanese pop singer who was really popular, but then she made a comment about Taiwanese independence and that was the end of her career.
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Kissblade you need to stop posting. You only upset people and from here on out no one will read your content objectively anymore. You have became the sole defender of China's claim and you will be flamed by every other forum member here, except for some Chinese mainland members.
If you want me to start listing the things of China that are undemocratic, against freedom and against the general ideology of the west that are considered 'our' most valuable morals and virtues I could write up a list that contains more items than words you have typed in this thread altogether. Do you think Tibet is China too? Because the UN recognizes it as so and you have 'legitimate' claims on it. Well the same things can be said against it and no matter what the corrupt and aggressive Chinese government claims, Tibet does not belong. The cultural differences are huge and they have been repressed and sucked out for decades. China is behaving like an aggressive colonialist state, almost similar to Japan's previous aggression at certain points, whom you despise so badly. No Taiwan has an equal different past than China and the last 60 years of autonomous rule of China have made it become clearly different than China's mainland. If Taiwan wants to belong to China, then China should reach out an open hand for Taiwan to accept on their own willingness. Forcing Chinese pride on Taiwan is no good for anyone, and that is clearly what is the case here. You cannot have Taiwan unless you use force. This clearly means they don't want to be ruled by the Beijing government or want much to do with them. Now stop claiming territory.
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On October 10 2007 01:55 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
Kissblade you need to stop posting. You only upset people and from here on out no one will read your content objectively anymore. You have became the sole defender of China's claim and you will be flamed by every other forum member here, except for some Chinese mainland members.
If you want me to start listing the things of China that are undemocratic, against freedom and against the general ideology of the west that are considered 'our' most valuable morals and virtues I could write up a list that contains more items than words you have typed in this thread altogether. Do you think Tibet is China too? Because the UN recognizes it as so and you have 'legitimate' claims on it. Well the same things can be said against it and no matter what the corrupt and aggressive Chinese government claims, Tibet does not belong. The cultural differences are huge and they have been repressed and sucked out for decades. China is behaving like an aggressive colonialist state, almost similar to Japan's previous aggression at certain points, whom you despise so badly. No Taiwan has an equal different past than China and the last 60 years of autonomous rule of China have made it become clearly different than China's mainland. If Taiwan wants to belong to China, then China should reach out an open hand for Taiwan to accept on their own willingness. Forcing Chinese pride on Taiwan is no good for anyone, and that is clearly what is the case here. You cannot have Taiwan unless you use force. This clearly means they don't want to be ruled by the Beijing government or want much to do with them. Now stop claiming territory.
Tibet is Tibet.
China will fall into pieces just like the Soviet Union did.
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No China will not. Soviet had economic problems and after Stalin softened their terror. China still represses their subordinates and at the same time benefit from a great economic boom that will continue for a long period of time. If anything the grip of the central government will tighten and become even more dominating. Protests won't do them much good for the while being, unless a large group rises, but that seems unlikely. Last I remember is a peace square. Funny name.
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On October 10 2007 02:02 ambit!ous1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:55 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
Kissblade you need to stop posting. You only upset people and from here on out no one will read your content objectively anymore. You have became the sole defender of China's claim and you will be flamed by every other forum member here, except for some Chinese mainland members.
If you want me to start listing the things of China that are undemocratic, against freedom and against the general ideology of the west that are considered 'our' most valuable morals and virtues I could write up a list that contains more items than words you have typed in this thread altogether. Do you think Tibet is China too? Because the UN recognizes it as so and you have 'legitimate' claims on it. Well the same things can be said against it and no matter what the corrupt and aggressive Chinese government claims, Tibet does not belong. The cultural differences are huge and they have been repressed and sucked out for decades. China is behaving like an aggressive colonialist state, almost similar to Japan's previous aggression at certain points, whom you despise so badly. No Taiwan has an equal different past than China and the last 60 years of autonomous rule of China have made it become clearly different than China's mainland. If Taiwan wants to belong to China, then China should reach out an open hand for Taiwan to accept on their own willingness. Forcing Chinese pride on Taiwan is no good for anyone, and that is clearly what is the case here. You cannot have Taiwan unless you use force. This clearly means they don't want to be ruled by the Beijing government or want much to do with them. Now stop claiming territory. Tibet is Tibet. China will fall into pieces just like the Soviet Union did.
Actually I think Russia today is much more promising than USSR ever has been
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But Strafe, as you put the problem (undemocratic and against the ideology of the west) is clear that you have no studies in this area.
But this discussion and arguing is futile.
This wasn't actually about china or taiwan belonging to china or not (but it actually does).
Xeris is right anyway (and end of arguing).
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On October 10 2007 02:10 Pika Chu wrote:
But Strafe, as you put the problem (undemocratic and against the ideology of the west) is clear that you have no studies in this area.
But this discussion and arguing is futile.
This wasn't actually about china or taiwan belonging to china or not (but it actually does).
Xeris is right anyway (and end of arguing).
Pikachu. What? At least say something useful.
Let me reply to you in equal manner.
You are stupid. Let's end this thread.
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i like how some people are talking about china fucking over taiwan and shit
but in reality im sure this case has been put up with already
they arent going to war after some cyberathletic tournament..
and this is getting interesting =p
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Chinese are unpredictable, they might just send boatshipments with economic refugees to Taiwan. Only this time all armed with a spoon to topple the Taiwanese government.
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we do this topic liek couple times a year...do we really have to do this?
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On October 10 2007 02:16 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
Chinese are unpredictable, they might just send boatshipments with economic refugees to Taiwan. Only this time all armed with a spoon to topple the Taiwanese government.
LOLZ
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 10 2007 01:40 Xeris wrote:
Maybe PJ and the Chinese overrecated here, but you need to understand where they are coming from. This guy raising the flag of Taiwan is basically like a slap in the face to the Chinese, they had a right to be angry about it.
Lol yes they did.
Lol no it wasn't.
Lol no they didn't.
If he was burning a chinese flag I'd understand it, but this? I'm sorry, it's unacceptable, regardless of circumstances. Maybe it's personal to you (dunno if you are chinese), but when looked at from a neutral perspective (although I'm sure I'm biased since Taiwan is a bit more westernish than china) it's just pathetic.
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I can't reply to an useless post like yours with something useful, sorry.
Well i didn't want to offend you but since you called me stupid... well.. takes one to know one.
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On October 10 2007 00:24 lilsusie wrote:It's like Texas thinking that they are their own country... I have Taiwanese friends who get really upset if you call them Chinese and ones who don't really care. I agree, it's mainly a pride thing.
pftt, we are our own country. tbh
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I called you stupid, because you called for it. You immediately jumped to the conclusion someone is unknowing and lacking studies in a certain area from one posts, WHICH YOU COMPLETELY MISREAD.
Sorry if you are going to give criticism at least argue for it, but start with understanding the post of another person.
And seriously if you think I actually called you stupid, then I guess I was right.
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On October 10 2007 01:55 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
Kissblade you need to stop posting. You only upset people and from here on out no one will read your content objectively anymore. You have became the sole defender of China's claim and you will be flamed by every other forum member here, except for some Chinese mainland members.
If you want me to start listing the things of China that are undemocratic, against freedom and against the general ideology of the west that are considered 'our' most valuable morals and virtues I could write up a list that contains more items than words you have typed in this thread altogether. Do you think Tibet is China too? Because the UN recognizes it as so and you have 'legitimate' claims on it. Well the same things can be said against it and no matter what the corrupt and aggressive Chinese government claims, Tibet does not belong. The cultural differences are huge and they have been repressed and sucked out for decades. China is behaving like an aggressive colonialist state, almost similar to Japan's previous aggression at certain points, whom you despise so badly. No Taiwan has an equal different past than China and the last 60 years of autonomous rule of China have made it become clearly different than China's mainland. If Taiwan wants to belong to China, then China should reach out an open hand for Taiwan to accept on their own willingness. Forcing Chinese pride on Taiwan is no good for anyone, and that is clearly what is the case here. You cannot have Taiwan unless you use force. This clearly means they don't want to be ruled by the Beijing government or want much to do with them. Now stop claiming territory.
I'm pretty certain most of what you will list will either be false or general in application that you can put it to every other country in some shape way or form. And cultural differences are not what defines country borders. I'm a New Yorker. I am in no way similar to the MidWesterner or Southerner in terms of culture. Second, Tibet was part of China since before the Qing dynasty where they agreed to be loosely ruled by the Chinese protecterate. This wasn't something the Chinese government tells me, this was my studies in my US College Class about Chinese history. And before you start, this class was also taught by a white Yale grad. Your sentence about "Taiwan has an equal different past" just makes no sense whatsoever. I cannot claim territory about what country belongs to what. However, in the geographical political sense, Taiwan is a province of China. That is FACT. Just as New York is part of the US. The people who are arguing this either have no idea on the topic (such as yourself) and then resorts to flaming because they're just uneducated on the topic.
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On October 10 2007 01:53 himurakenshin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:36 KissBlade wrote:On October 10 2007 01:35 himurakenshin wrote:
Chinese ppl get fucked around by their government, by them not mentioning historical events, filtering media and communication, and they still support their government so much. YOU CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. I don't think so... look at the number of entertainers being anti-Bush administration. No problem. My friend was telling me about a Taiwanese pop singer who was really popular, but then she made a comment about Taiwanese independence and that was the end of her career.
Out of context. Anti bush is just anti a president. If you get a pop singer who says "Hey America is a Piece of Shit and Democracy sucks", I'm relatively certain that will end their career in the US as well.
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I don't think i misread it. And you tried a serious post with serious arguments, arguments which i believe they are water rain. Show me what i didn't understand from your post.
What can i argue about? this arguing has been already done over and over again. Democracy =/= best system. In fact there is no best system.
Actually i got a little pissed by the fact that you jumped in Kissblade's head for nothing. His opinion and posts were important since he said from the beggining that he's originary from taiwan.
Maybe i lack in understanding of your posts, but as it seems, to me atleast, that "you are stupid" was directed to me.
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On October 10 2007 01:28 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:26 Sadist wrote:
interesting topic for me imo, I dont know the exact story behind China and Taiwan, but If its not like the US with the confederate flag(which represents racism and oppression) I dont see what the big deal is. . The civil war did not start over slavery. PS. This isn't directed to you but it's amazing how people are accusing others of being misinformed by foreign government when they're so misled by their own about their history.
duh
but thats what the flag represents to many people.
And i was talking about purely from a flag perspective, thats why i did not mention the revolutionary war.
There are still people here today in America that like the confederate flag and theres been loads of issues over it, I personally think its disgusting and their excuses for wanting to use it (IE: It represents my families history for fighting in the war, its us its the south......Ya well your great great great grandfather was a douche bag too)
So, while I wouldnt personally have a problem with someone seceding, I think that flag is sick, I didnt know if the Chinese/Taiwan relationship had some sort of similar history or whatever.
Nationalism IMO is dumb, its ok in sports to bring people together, but shit like what happened here is stupid, PJ is insignificant in China, why should he be sticking up for something that honestly couldnt give a damn if he died tommorow.
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On October 10 2007 02:38 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:53 himurakenshin wrote:On October 10 2007 01:36 KissBlade wrote:On October 10 2007 01:35 himurakenshin wrote:
Chinese ppl get fucked around by their government, by them not mentioning historical events, filtering media and communication, and they still support their government so much. YOU CAN SAY THE SAME ABOUT EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. I don't think so... look at the number of entertainers being anti-Bush administration. No problem. My friend was telling me about a Taiwanese pop singer who was really popular, but then she made a comment about Taiwanese independence and that was the end of her career. Out of context. Anti bush is just anti a president. If you get a pop singer who says "Hey America is a Piece of Shit and Democracy sucks", I'm relatively certain that will end their career in the US as well.
not true, see dixie chicks.
On October 10 2007 02:35 KissBlade wrote:
However, in the geographical political sense, Taiwan is a province of China. That is FACT. Just as New York is part of the US. The people who are arguing this either have no idea on the topic (such as yourself) and then resorts to flaming because they're just uneducated on the topic.
what does geographical political even mean. politically, they are considered a province just because nobody in the world wants to anger china.
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'I'm pretty certain most of what you will list will either be false or general in application that you can put it to every other country in some shape way or form. '
You mean the blatant censorship of any criticism against government, the sudden disappearance of government criticizers, the ban of amnesty international or....... But you are right, China is a funny peace loving country that would not dare the violate human rights or oppress the people of Tibet. And what is 60 years of self government? Let's take it back against their will and argue that it is alright for a group to come on to one person demanding, shouting and pushing him in order to get his OWN flag down and raise a Chinese flag who he clearly does not feel related to.
Do you even think for a second that China and their government are not violating countless of rules? 'China is just as bad as any other' is no good explanations for their intolerable behavior. Now stop trolling around.
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On October 10 2007 02:43 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
I'm pretty certain most of what you will list will either be false or general in application that you can put it to every other country in some shape way or form.
You mean the blatant censorship of any criticism against government, the sudden disappearance of government criticizers, the ban of amnesty international or....... But you are right, China is a funny peace loving country that would not dare the violate human rights or oppress the people of Tibet. And what is 60 years of self government? Let's take it back against their will and argue that it is alright for a group to come on to one person demanding, shouting and pushing him in order to get his OWN flag down and raise a Chinese flag who he clearly does not feel related to.
Do you even think for a second that China and their government are not violating countless of rules? 'China is just as bad as any other' is no good explanations for their intolerable behavior. Now stop trolling around.
First off, I don't believe what PJ did was right. I was making counter points to several uninformed posts (including yours). Most of your post as I've suspected is blatant exaggeration. There is censorship in China. Significant censorship that is heavier thant he US. Agreed. But what government doesn't censor material? It's the price you pay for order. The lines aren't always clear on where it is best to set it but that takes work. If I'm trolling by posting legitimate counterclaims to uninformed posts, then I guess this forum is built on ignorance?
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i have to agree with Strafe.
KissBlade just open your eyes a little bit, not everything is as it seems, especially when it comes to politics. you keep pointing out that nobody is "educated" on the topic just because you can cite some history or geography courses that you took from some white Yale professor, yet you are still so naive to what is actually causing the rift between china and taiwan.
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On October 10 2007 02:48 tiffany wrote:
i have to agree with Strafe.
KissBlade just open your eyes a little bit, not everything is as it seems, especially when it comes to politics. you keep pointing out that nobody is "educated" on the topic just because you can cite some history or geography courses that you took from some white Yale professor, yet you are still so naive to what is actually causing the rift between china and taiwan.
I have to open my eyes a bit? Let me get this straight, because I can cite fact, I am naive to this topic? I have already accepted there are differing opinions, some valid, others not. I am not denying that there are people from Taiwan who maintains they are independant, but there's random people running in here and just spoiling the topic with their own misinformation and trying to flame other so they can make theirs truth. And at the same time they post about oppression of knowledge. It just reeks of hypocrisy to me.
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To sustain the last part of kissblade's post: the publication and possesion of any copy of mein kampf is forbidden (in most country in europe it is, not sure about usa).
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is awesome32269 Posts
On October 10 2007 02:43 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
Let's take it back against their will and argue that it is alright for a group to come on to one person demanding, shouting and pushing him in order to get his OWN flag down and raise a Chinese flag who he clearly does not feel related to.
Chinese clearly are pirates.
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I don't see why people arguing here
International politics is just a game. If you want to play with it, you better convince everyone (or at least big names) who's already been playing it that you have the ability to make the game funnier if they let you join.
Taiwan just failed to do so. And they keep trying it.
Moral? Democracy? I feel sry. That's the politician's excuse.
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You just keep saying I am uneducated without proving me wrong. If I took you serious enough I would www.google.cn and look up the numbers of people monitored by amnesty international that all of the sudden disappeared. And then look at their relation to the government and would find out something remarkable. If there is one person here that is uneducated it will be you. Maybe you need to process the information given by the white yale professor a little bit better. Knowledge alone does you no good when you are unable to make it into something useful. Black and white does not exist and you need to look beyond the length of your undoubtedly flat nose. A simple claim by China on a territory alone is not enough to deny it its rights and own government.
There is no blatant exaggeration in the violations of human rights in China and their rather aggressive behavior in certain areas. If anything the world keeps quiet about it and doesn't raise their voice against them too hard. Because you know, they all have something to do with China now. Stop calling people uninformed, because they disagree with you. Someone is not uneducated , because he is saying something different than what you think is the truth.
I never yearned more for a crushing Moltke post than now. Let him rant on China and your knees will tremble from the roaring truth coming at you. Open your eyes and accept China has more than most governments, too many shortcomings and their behavior against the self-determination of Taiwan becomes rather annoying.
I won't say you are brainwashed nor uneducated, you just strike me as a stubborn idiot. Unless someone else than you two (pikachu) has something to say I will not reply anymore until a decent intelligent post has been made.
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On October 10 2007 03:01 {ToT}Strafe wrote:You just keep saying I am uneducated without proving me wrong. If I took you serious enough I would www.google.cn and look up the numbers of people monitored by amnesty international that all of the sudden disappeared. And then look at their relation to the government and would find out something remarkable. If there is one person here that is uneducated it will be you. Maybe you need to process the information given by the white yale professor a little bit better. Knowledge alone does you no good when you are unable to make it into something useful. Black and white does not exist and you need to look beyond the length of your undoubtedly flat nose. A simple claim by China on a territory alone is not enough to deny it its rights and own government. There is no blatant exaggeration in the violations of human rights in China and their rather aggressive behavior in certain areas. If anything the world keeps quiet about it and doesn't raise their voice against them too hard. Because you know, they all have something to do with China now. Stop calling people uninformed, because they disagree with you. Someone is not uneducated , because he is saying something different than what you think is the truth. I never yearned more for a crushing Moltke post than now. Let him rant on China and your knees will tremble from the roaring truth coming at you. Open your eyes and accept China has more than most governments, too many shortcomings and their behavior against the self-determination of Taiwan becomes rather annoying. I won't say you are brainwashed nor uneducated, you just strike me as a stubborn idiot. Unless someone else than you two (pikachu) has something to say I will not reply anymore until a decent intelligent post has been made.
Other than your poor attempt at a flame you've said nothing of substance in any of your posts. You've posted no sources or facts. Apparently your version of freedom of speech is to tell the other side to stfu because they're a stubborn idiot? I call people uninformed because they are uninformed. There's been valid counterpoints, you simply can't accept that you have zero ground to stand on other than "China violates human rights" which has little to nothing to do with the topic at hand. A simple claim made by China on a territory alone? The fact that most of the world supports that claim apparently means nothing to you? here's an advice for you then Strafe. Do what you said and STOP posting because you've got nothing. Motlke's truth? You mean biased sources that sound almost like they come from the stance of a Nazi? You are the hypocrite that roars on about oppression when your posts have been nothing more than "I'm white and thus I know more this than you so you should shut up because you're being oppressed by your censored government (which is funny because everything I've learned about China was in the US)".
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Mein Kampf is not banned in the USA, I have a copy. they sell it in a lot of bookstores, but you get a weird look when you buy it =o
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lol the chinese have to post that taiwan is their province, cause otherwise they get sentenced to death..... i also wonder how they came through the internet censorship i heard of
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On October 10 2007 02:35 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 01:55 {ToT}Strafe wrote:
Kissblade you need to stop posting. You only upset people and from here on out no one will read your content objectively anymore. You have became the sole defender of China's claim and you will be flamed by every other forum member here, except for some Chinese mainland members.
If you want me to start listing the things of China that are undemocratic, against freedom and against the general ideology of the west that are considered 'our' most valuable morals and virtues I could write up a list that contains more items than words you have typed in this thread altogether. Do you think Tibet is China too? Because the UN recognizes it as so and you have 'legitimate' claims on it. Well the same things can be said against it and no matter what the corrupt and aggressive Chinese government claims, Tibet does not belong. The cultural differences are huge and they have been repressed and sucked out for decades. China is behaving like an aggressive colonialist state, almost similar to Japan's previous aggression at certain points, whom you despise so badly. No Taiwan has an equal different past than China and the last 60 years of autonomous rule of China have made it become clearly different than China's mainland. If Taiwan wants to belong to China, then China should reach out an open hand for Taiwan to accept on their own willingness. Forcing Chinese pride on Taiwan is no good for anyone, and that is clearly what is the case here. You cannot have Taiwan unless you use force. This clearly means they don't want to be ruled by the Beijing government or want much to do with them. Now stop claiming territory. I'm pretty certain most of what you will list will either be false or general in application that you can put it to every other country in some shape way or form. And cultural differences are not what defines country borders. I'm a New Yorker. I am in no way similar to the MidWesterner or Southerner in terms of culture. Second, Tibet was part of China since before the Qing dynasty where they agreed to be loosely ruled by the Chinese protecterate. This wasn't something the Chinese government tells me, this was my studies in my US College Class about Chinese history. And before you start, this class was also taught by a white Yale grad. Your sentence about "Taiwan has an equal different past" just makes no sense whatsoever. I cannot claim territory about what country belongs to what. However, in the geographical political sense, Taiwan is a province of China. That is FACT. Just as New York is part of the US. The people who are arguing this either have no idea on the topic (such as yourself) and then resorts to flaming because they're just uneducated on the topic.
I'm going to just mention a slight, but appreciable difference. New York wants to be a part of the USA. Taiwan doesn't want to be a part of China. OKay?
Southerners and midwesterners are not treated differently by the government than New Yorkers. Tibetians are treated differently by the government compared to the rest of China.
Not that hard of a concept to grasp.
Stop making the rest of us Chinese-Americans look bad.
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On October 10 2007 03:10 Cranefly wrote:lol the chinese have to post that taiwan is their province, cause otherwise they get sentenced to death..... i also wonder how they came through the internet censorship i heard of
As I've already stated multiple times in this post. I'm from Taiwan. My view is mostly slanted towards the "conservative" stance in Taiwan. (which recent polls have shown to be the leading opinion). This doesn't mean that immediate unification is desired, simply that there can be some agreement met about it in indeterminate time. Of course, recent polls are also very skewed because if you knew anything about Taiwanese politics, you'd know it's not clean at all and more corrupted than the Florida debacle during the Bush election.
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The point is that China commits egregious human rights violations, and that any defense of it on this forum is going to be flamed. Furthermore, creating such a fuss about someone putting up a Taiwanese flag at WCG is even more undeniably stupid.
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8748 Posts
Why are you people arguing politics? It's off topic and avoiding it was specifically requested.
Anyway it's sad how WCG fails at bringing people of the world together through a common interest. Although I don't see what WCG can do about these incidents of ill-feelings and inappropriate behavior, their regular occurence certainly shits all over WCG's ideals of fairplay and respect.
Naivete and/or ignorance do not excuse the players' actions. There exists no political situation that would justify what they did nor absolve them of responsibility.
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On October 10 2007 03:18 azndsh wrote:
The point is that China commits egregious human rights violations, and that any defense of it on this forum is going to be flamed. Furthermore, creating such a fuss about someone putting up a Taiwanese flag at WCG is even more undeniably stupid.
I didn't defend any of those points. I just failed to see what they had to do with the statement that Taiwan is considered a part of China. Basically, this was the last six pages. Someone: Taiwan is a province of China. Person 2: No it's not. Me: Yes it actually is. Person 3: Human rights, tibet, BBQ. Strafe: Stop talking KissBlade, you're being censored by your government.
It's comedic yet stupid.
Bottem line for me is, I think everyone in China agrees some things can change in the better. But we'd rather leave that choice to us, the Chinese rather than outside foreigners pointing fingers and trying to make their own labels on things.
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regardless of the taiwan/china situation, if Pj even made any sort of advancement ( by himself or part of a group) or even an OFFHAND comment to this player, then I have pretty much lost my respect for him. I also won't be supporting him in any games from now on;(
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On October 10 2007 01:35 himurakenshin wrote:
Chinese ppl get fucked around by their government, by them not mentioning historical events, filtering media and communication, and they still support their government so much.
perhaps thats one of the major reasons they do support their government so much? not in spite of it but because of it.
its a technique used for that effect, anyway, the world over.
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Let it be strafe & co. There's no use to it. It's politics.
I'm from tibet. I am tibetan. And no force, no goverment, no weapon, no argument on earth can take that away from me.
Replace my countrys name with whatever you wan't You-chen showed the flag he feels connected to. And that's all that matters. A few words or fights won't change no minds. It's a heart thing you now..
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Chinese ppl with aggros just cant get over this, I hate it when a country takes credit for where its not from. Taiwan is a different country and they have their right to represent in WCG. Obviously, you cant represent or raise a flag for a country you never been in.
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pj is showing his true colors.. communist freaks!!!
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On October 10 2007 03:21 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2007 03:18 azndsh wrote:
The point is that China commits egregious human rights violations, and that any defense of it on this forum is going to be flamed. Furthermore, creating such a fuss about someone putting up a Taiwanese flag at WCG is even more undeniably stupid. I didn't defend any of those points. I just failed to see what they had to do with the statement that Taiwan is considered a part of China. Basically, this was the last six pages. Someone: Taiwan is a province of China. Person 2: No it's not. Me: Yes it actually is. Person 3: Human rights, tibet, BBQ. Strafe: Stop talking KissBlade, you're being censored by your government. It's comedic yet stupid. Bottem line for me is, I think everyone in China agrees some things can change in the better. But we'd rather leave that choice to us, the Chinese rather than outside foreigners pointing fingers and trying to make their own labels on things.
how about leave the choice to Taiwanese, the people who actually live in Taiwan, rather than outside foreigners like the chinese from China?
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Wow if this is true, I've really lost respect for PJ. That's a shame....
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It's hard to recognize Taiwan as independent when its constitution makes it a temporary base for the government-in-exile of a unified China.
Taiwan has evolved into a prosperous liberal democracy (unlike the country its founding government was driven out of), but it hasn't changed its constitution yet (looks like this will happen soon, however).
Once Taiwan's constitution is updated to reflect the reality of the situation, it will be a lot harder for the rest of the world to call it part of China.
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Braavos36372 Posts
This is why we close every political/nationalist thread in this forum. There is just too much ignorance and bias to discuss this productively. It just results in angry people and random flames from bigots.
If you want to know more about the China/Taiwan situation, go find more credible sources than what some people say on a forum. Just realize that this issue is much more complicated than any one view articulated in this thread. None of the developed opinions here are wholly "correct."
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://appledaily.atnext.com/images/apple-photos/apple/20071009/large/09ck44p.jpg)
