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On March 22 2007 00:38 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote:
I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him? It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed.
baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick.
"When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse."
How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him?
"If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time."
Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong.
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Beyonder, a young cop, manages to bust "Chibi" Owens, the long time criminal with an equally long rap sheet. However, in the arrest, he makes one fatal mistake: he forgets to read him his miranda rights! Owens's lawyer and long time partner in crime Robert Baal manages to rouse support from the press and the public for Owens's case, insisting that his rights have been violated, and the city council is forced to intervene.
The mysterious mayor of the city issues a statement through the head warden, Emmanuel Festo, that Chibi Owens will not be released.
YOU BE THE JUDGE!
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Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it.
Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default.
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United States20666 Posts
On March 22 2007 00:59 MYM.Testie wrote:
Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it.
Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default.
classiest place = hooters?
nal_rA 40++ chicken wings?
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Even though I vowed an exit from the community, I too am allowed to realize my decisions are rash and without thought. I realize that I overstepped my bounds earlier with posting about chibi, but as an outsider looking in the solution to the problem is a very easy one: the ban was justified and finalized.
I completely understand though that the decision is not completely binary in correctness, as many people have formed relationships that are affecting their posts and views.
I do not understand though how, as everyone has said, people continue to disrespect the moderators who have put hours into making this community what it is. Yes, these people are not the only ones who contribute, as it takes many more personalities and individuals to truly make a community what it is. But these people were picked/chosen to serve the community selflessly. It doesn't matter if you guys don't like who is in charge, they are still the ones in charge and they should be respected.
As to Mani's flame before banning baal, how is this not justified or warrented? Everyone knew baal's ban was coming, and if you didn't you really need to reanalyze the situation. Next, who said that the moderators weren't allowed to be human and get upset? They should remain partial in most instances because they are in a position of power, but asking them to not have emotion is completely ludicrous. I am actually very impressed with the way the mods have conducted themselves during this entire situation. I highly doubt if anyone of us "mortals" were in the same situation we would act the same. I surely can tell you I wouldn't have remained so calm after being blatantly disrespected for so long.
These forums are not a right, they are a privilege. I for one want the continued success of this community and a place to come to for relaxation. So although I know I am a "nobody" I highly encourage everyone to sincerely stop and think before continuing to argue and segregate the community.
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On March 22 2007 01:01 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 00:59 MYM.Testie wrote:
Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it.
Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default. classiest place = hooters? nal_rA 40++ chicken wings?
That was blizzcon in Hollywood or L.A. or whatever. We weren't in Anaheim at the time. All the cities are like a mix just a highway away from eachother. The koreans demanded hooters. When Reach demands hooters no one can stop him. + Leg is a known pervert and he's tall an strong.
It was a very upscale place Mani took us too. It was a french version of hooters. 3x the price with finer drink and no ID necessary.
This story may have had liberties taken with it and distortions prevalent in it that I am completely aware of.
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United States20666 Posts
oh, I think, after the smoke has cleared, everyone left is fairly levelheaded, yes?
I'm still sad about chibi though T-T but I'll leave it to the pro chibi mods to argue for him.
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United States20666 Posts
On March 22 2007 01:05 MYM.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 01:01 Last Romantic wrote:On March 22 2007 00:59 MYM.Testie wrote:
Mani bought me wings in San Francisco at the classiest place in town. We offered to pay him and he would have none of it.
Baal bought me nothing. Mani wins by default. classiest place = hooters? nal_rA 40++ chicken wings? That was blizzcon in Hollywood or L.A. or whatever. We weren't in Anaheim at the time. All the cities are like a mix just a highway away from eachother. The koreans demanded hooters. When Reach demands hooters no one can stop him. + Leg is a known pervert and he's tall an strong. It was a very upscale place Mani took us too. It was a french version of hooters. 3x the price with finer drink and no ID necessary.
ahahahahahah that reach quote needs to be added to the current collection of mantoss ones.
bah I LIVE in california and I still don't quite know where is where ;o.
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United States44262 Posts
On March 22 2007 00:56 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 00:38 Kwark wrote:On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote:
I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him? It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed. baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick. "When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse." How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him? "If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time." Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong.
I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding.
If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it.
-Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them
-Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back."
-Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him
-Mani bans him
Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it.
If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough.
If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough.
But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
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On March 22 2007 00:19 Last Romantic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 00:15 TheosEx wrote:On March 22 2007 00:14 Kwark wrote:On March 21 2007 23:37 Manifesto7 wrote:
Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less. You get up on this high horse like you are some kind of TL lorist pining for the old days, and then presume to tell the world about a subject and a process you know nothing about. The fact that you even comment on the quality of the forums when you yourself are responsible for lowering that quality is laughable.
The moderators on this site represent some of the smartest and most articulated people I have come across here. The level of discussion on this issue and all others would shame even the best of the general forum threads. They work hard and come up with fair results in order to make this a better place.
Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back. I would like to see your TL attitude stand at LP. Im tired of you coming here everytime you feel like you have to take a verbal dump. Do everybody a favour and just dont post. And then you ban him for disrespect? Unimpressed. If you stayed aloof from the argument and he said what he said then fair enough. But you engaged in shitslinging with him then banned him for giving as good as he got? Not right Mani.  It's an either or thing. If you want the ability to have flame wars, you abdicate the responsibilities of the Mod. You can't say "Get the fuck out baal" and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I know you're pissed off (your posting style gives it away) and I know you believe yourself to be in the right in this discussion. But neither of those gives you the right to tell baal to fuck off and then ban him for disrespect when he responds. I recommend you reconsider this when calmed down because this really doesn't show you in a decent light. Stfu... that's excellent modding in action. I don't see how you consider it excellent modding. I like mani, I respect and appreciate what he does for this site. Yet, in this case, I don't think he's in the right. And why do you keep sucking up to him? Almost everything you've said in this thread is something practically worshipping mani -_-;
Worshipping mani. Lol that's insulting. No man is worthy of my worship.
Anyways, maybe the reason why you think I'm worshipping him is because I agree that his decision is a good one. There are alot of immature kids in here. Mani is a grown man. That says alot in itself. Kids in here need to stop thinking they've lived life and that they're some wise guru living on a mountain somewhere that people trek to for good advice. While I disagree with Mani on alot of things, the way he handles himself is a lot better than 99% of the people in this forum. And exactly it. I don't worship him, but I respect him for how he handles himself. And believe me... I disagree with him on alot of things, but that's part of respect.
But none of that even matters. The bottom-line is that he's Mani. He bans you for any reason... too bad. Deal with it. Not that that's what he does.
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Osaka27177 Posts
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Sydney2287 Posts
On March 22 2007 01:11 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 00:56 travis wrote:On March 22 2007 00:38 Kwark wrote:On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote:
I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him? It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed. baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick. "When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse." How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him? "If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time." Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong. I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding. If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it. -Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them -Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back." -Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him -Mani bans him Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it. If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough. If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough. But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
You think that the response was the sole reason for the ban?
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On March 22 2007 01:11 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 00:56 travis wrote:On March 22 2007 00:38 Kwark wrote:On March 22 2007 00:34 travis wrote:
I am not understanding something here.
What is the problem with him replying to baal's attacks before he banned him? It was hardly replying. It was full on flaming. When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse. If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time. But whatever, Mani conceded it was bad form, baals ban was pretty justified so as far as I'm concerned this particular issue is closed. baal and manifesto have both been long time residents of these forums. This is not a formal relationship they have here. Ive yet to see a reason why its 'bad' for mani to let him know that he's an asshole and this is why he is getting banned before he bans him. Mani did not attack baal for his opinions, he attacked baal because baal was acting like a prick. "When Mani posted what he did he lowered himself to baals level and using his mod powers in that context is nothing more than abuse." How is it abuse? Would it have been abuse if mani replied to him, and then another mod banned him? "If he wants to engage in flame wars in the heat of the moment like the rest of us mortals then he should abdicate his divine powers for that time." Why? Do you think him incapable of stepping aside and thinking rationally during a flame war? Because if so, I believe you are wrong. I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding. If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it. -Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them -Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back." -Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him -Mani bans him Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it. If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough. If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough. But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
You're reasoning makes since but one of your premises is false therefore rendering the entire thing invalid according to logic I believe.
The timeline that you posted is a bit condensed and obvioulsy works in your favor.
Actual Time Line:
-Baal disrespects mods
-Baal disrespects mods
-Baal disrespects mods
... 10 pages later
-Baal disrespects mods
*insert your timeline*
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United States44262 Posts
It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
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On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote:
It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
I really Loled when I read this. That is such a stupid comparison.
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On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote:
It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
Once again, please ... this is not a contest and a *winner* is not going to be declared. If anything we are all losers for letting this get as out of control as we have and failing to act as mature adults.
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United States4471 Posts
On March 22 2007 01:11 Kwark wrote:
I believe very few people think rationally in flame wars. It's why they're such fun. And no, I would not think it abuse if another Mod banned him for it. I think it is abuse because Mani flamed (and flamed more offensively than Baal) and then banned him for responding.
If I may provide a rough chronology as I see it.
-Baal says nasty things about mods and generally disagrees with them
-Mani says "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all, and know even less.....Get the fuck out baal. Seriously, don't come back."
-Baal calls him a second rate mod and invites him to ban him
-Mani bans him
Mani had two choices, he could either remain aloof and ban Baal for disrespect. Or he could join the rest of us and engage in flame wars. I don't know about the rest of you but when told "Fuck you. You are worth nothing at all." I respond, and I respond angrily. When Mani said it to Baal he knew exactly what would happen. He was inciting it.
If Baal had been banned immediately then fair enough.
If they'd done some flaming and counter flaming and then someone else had banned Baal fair enough.
But when Mani flames, Baal counter flames and then Mani bans him for flaming a mod something is seriously not right.
Now you're just getting nitpicky. All that needs to be said is that Baal was asking for a ban with the way he had been posting in this thread, and that Mani was fully within his rights to post angrily in response to all of Baal's continued bullshit. Arguing about the timing and order in which certain things were said and certain acts were performed is just being unnecessarily critical. Sure Baal responded in an expected manner to Mani's post, but that doesn't all of a sudden make it the sole or even primary reason for Mani's subsequent ban.
The mere suggestion that Mani's angry post was made in order to goad Baal into doing something to further justify a ban is just ridiculous as Baal had done more than enough halfway through this thread. The idea that a fully justifiable ban suddenly becomes improper because of an angry post thrown in just before letting Baal know just how Mani felt is also ridiculous. Staff members are not politicians running for office who carefully calculate every move they make and every word they post to give out just the right message, we get angry and cuss people out if we think it's deserving.
Baal deserved to be flamed and banned, Mani flamed and banned him. Any further analysis of this is unnecessary and just makes you look silly. At that point you're reaching a point where you're criticizing just for the sake of criticizing.
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United States44262 Posts
On March 22 2007 01:25 TheosEx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote:
It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement. I really Loled when I read this. That is such a stupid comparison.
The judge has a duty to act impartially. A divorce is a situation where he is unlikely to be impartial.
A mod also has that duty. A flame war is a situation in which anger is likely to cloud his judgement.
Explain your criticism.
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Kwark, go watch judge judy handle business. We're all in the mods court room. And Judge Judy can sure as hell cuss a person out before delivering her sentence ordering someone to shut up. Baal was showing contempt of court continually.
Your analogy doesn't fit, and isn't related.
Telling someone who's acting like an idiot to shut up, and then force them to shut up is a bittersweet and hilarious justice.
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United States4471 Posts
On March 22 2007 01:23 Kwark wrote:
It would seem if anything, my problem here is expecting too much of Mods. I think ideally they shouldn't flame and when they feel they have to flame, they should flame as an individual, not a mod. Mod powers were given to improve the forum, not to win personal arguments and as much as I'm sure Mani felt it was improving the forum, given he was in the middle of an argument with Baal he was hardly impartial. Which is why I said I'd have no problem if another had banned Baal.
If a judge was getting a divorce, they wouldn't ask him to sort out his own wifes settlement.
Unrealistic expectations, bad analysis of what happened, and a bad analogy. Mods can and will flame as mods or individuals when the person being flamed deserves it. Again, we're not holding ourselves to some inhuman level of propriety. Mani's ban was not used "to win personal arguments", it was to shut Baal up because of all the crap that was coming out of him. There was no argument to win, Mani simply gave Baal a piece of mind before banning him. Stop trying to form some causal connection between the flaming and the ban, the flaming was incidental to it.
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EPT
