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On May 12 2014 06:57 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 06:55 kwizach wrote:On May 12 2014 06:16 sekritzzz wrote:
To put aside all the sensationalist propoganda from both sides, if someone wants a classic case of a diplomatic rape just give him the Ukranian crisis. The US foreign policy in comparison to Putin is like a 1st grader trying to oursmart his teacher. Uh, no it's not. Putin decided to use military force to annex Crimea, and the U.S. did not choose to use military force in response, opting for sanctions instead. What else was there to be done? The result is that Russia's economy is considerably hurting, and that what soft power Russia had on the international scene has evaporated. Putin might have bolstered support domestically, but Russia is more isolated on the international scene than it's been in years. Russia is seeking help from China for collaboration and is trying to rely less on the "west".
Until Russia has major pipelines to China it has nothing to offer to Chinese. People also tend to forget who is the China's largest trading partner right now. If anyone thinks that current economic relations between USA and China could be unmade on a whim, is sadly mistaken.
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wow they're really putting a lot of effort into rigging the elections. Mabye the next time they could at least not use the exact same number that they agreed on in a leaked phone call.
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On May 12 2014 07:03 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 06:52 Mc wrote:@sekritzz Russia achieved it's aims through propaganda,subterfuge, and military force. It wasn't a level playing ground since Russia had so much more influence in Ukraine. The annexation of E. Ukraine is very unlikely, given that the Ukrainian army is in that region at the moment and Russia hasn't made any moves to annex/invade so far. I will support your one statement on how poor W. Ukraine is in comparison to E. Ukraine: GDP by region of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita sekritzz should actually take a look at the distribution. Lugansk oblast is not rich at all by Ukrainian standards. And Donetsk oblast is only one of 5 rich ones. The thing about Donbass is not that it's so rich, it's just very densely populated (by Ukrainian standrards), so they have high GDP total compared to others.
Good point cheerio. The wiki article is still quite informative to show that most of Ukraine's GDP comes from the center/east. I assume that Western Ukraine is almost all agriculture while the center/east has more industry/mining?
Another link showing salary/region:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Average_monthly_salary_in_Ukraine,_FY2013.jpg
edit: I heard that Yanukovych was very "good" for his region of Donetsk so that could influence why it stood out so much? I'd still assume the major reason is the industry/mining in Donetsk region.
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On May 12 2014 07:20 Mc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 07:03 Cheerio wrote:On May 12 2014 06:52 Mc wrote:@sekritzz Russia achieved it's aims through propaganda,subterfuge, and military force. It wasn't a level playing ground since Russia had so much more influence in Ukraine. The annexation of E. Ukraine is very unlikely, given that the Ukrainian army is in that region at the moment and Russia hasn't made any moves to annex/invade so far. I will support your one statement on how poor W. Ukraine is in comparison to E. Ukraine: GDP by region of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita sekritzz should actually take a look at the distribution. Lugansk oblast is not rich at all by Ukrainian standards. And Donetsk oblast is only one of 5 rich ones. The thing about Donbass is not that it's so rich, it's just very densely populated (by Ukrainian standrards), so they have high GDP total compared to others. Good point cheerio. The wiki article is still quite informative to show that most of Ukraine's GDP comes from the center/east. I assume that Western Ukraine is almost all agriculture while the center/east has more industry/mining? Another link showing salary/region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Average_monthly_salary_in_Ukraine,_FY2013.jpgedit: I heard that Yanukovych was very "good" for his region of Donetsk so that could influence why it stood out so much? I'd still assume the major reason is the industry/mining in Donetsk region.
it was because the soviet empire put a lot of their industrial production facilities in eastern ukraine. Also I was not only refering to donetsk and lugansk. I am refering to the entire east because at this moment it is an almost bygone conclusion. lets be realistic. Ukraine army cant do anything. They have separatists in their own country, a police force which is not under their command and they are heavily relying on neo nazis to do their dirty work such as shooting rpgs at a building in a city. im almost certain 3-4 more regions will follow suit. why would anyone stay on a sinking ship? Ukraine is completely bankrupt and russia offers them more wealth and security. I dont support Russia but its time to be realistic where this is heading.
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Another statement from the Kremlin inbound soon:
Putin to Clarify Stance on Ukraine Referendum After Results Announced – ReportMOSCOW, May 12 (RIA Novosti) – Russian President Vladimir Putin will formulate his opinion towards the referendums in two southeastern Ukrainian regions held on Sunday after their official results are made public, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told the Kommersant newspaper. “It is difficult to forecast,” Peskov told the newspaper. Putin had urged pro-federalization activists to put off the referendum to ensure the start of national dialog to resolve the ongoing crisis in the country, but the vote in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions was held as scheduled on Sunday. Asked whether Putin’s position would be affected by this decision to hold the referendum, Peskov said that the Russian president “did not request but gave such a recommendation.” “However, even taking into account the authority of the Russian president, it was difficult to listen to this [advice]. Amid real battle actions being held, citizens were forced to act in line with their own plan and judge from the situation,” Peskov said. ..... Source
Guess one statement wasn't enough to convince the separatists...
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On May 12 2014 07:09 Roman666 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 06:57 Xiphos wrote:On May 12 2014 06:55 kwizach wrote:On May 12 2014 06:16 sekritzzz wrote:
To put aside all the sensationalist propoganda from both sides, if someone wants a classic case of a diplomatic rape just give him the Ukranian crisis. The US foreign policy in comparison to Putin is like a 1st grader trying to oursmart his teacher. Uh, no it's not. Putin decided to use military force to annex Crimea, and the U.S. did not choose to use military force in response, opting for sanctions instead. What else was there to be done? The result is that Russia's economy is considerably hurting, and that what soft power Russia had on the international scene has evaporated. Putin might have bolstered support domestically, but Russia is more isolated on the international scene than it's been in years. Russia is seeking help from China for collaboration and is trying to rely less on the "west". Until Russia has major pipelines to China it has nothing to offer to Chinese. People also tend to forget who is the China's largest trading partner right now. If anyone thinks that current economic relations between USA and China could be unmade on a whim, is sadly mistaken.
Russia has more resources than oil and gas and they could open up some industries for Chinese companies. It'll come at the cost of more Chinese influence in Russia though.
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The head of Mariupol police, Valeriy Androschuk, who was supposed to be hanged, is very much alive, and in fact was already released, according to Avakov. The details are not disclosed but it's supposed that a pretty big ransom was payed.
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On May 12 2014 06:57 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 06:55 kwizach wrote:On May 12 2014 06:16 sekritzzz wrote:
To put aside all the sensationalist propoganda from both sides, if someone wants a classic case of a diplomatic rape just give him the Ukranian crisis. The US foreign policy in comparison to Putin is like a 1st grader trying to oursmart his teacher. Uh, no it's not. Putin decided to use military force to annex Crimea, and the U.S. did not choose to use military force in response, opting for sanctions instead. What else was there to be done? The result is that Russia's economy is considerably hurting, and that what soft power Russia had on the international scene has evaporated. Putin might have bolstered support domestically, but Russia is more isolated on the international scene than it's been in years. Russia is seeking help from China for collaboration and is trying to rely less on the "west".
And I'm sure China welcomes this as long as it means a lower gas price on the proposed pipeline. They've been haggling over it for years but given this newfound spirit of cooperation and friendship I expect a specific price will be agreed soon.
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According to ICTV news (Ukraine) separatists took as hotages the parents of a 18 yo Svoboda activist Yuriy Benedyuk. They require a ransom of around $10 000. His parents lived in Makeevka (Donetsk oblast) and disappeared on the 10th of May.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 12 2014 19:54 Cheerio wrote:
The head of Mariupol police, Valeriy Androschuk, who was supposed to be hanged, is very much alive, and in fact was already released, according to Avakov. The details are not disclosed but it's supposed that a pretty big ransom was payed.
At this point any information regarding eastern Ukraine may as well be ignored. What the hell is anyone supposed to believe? And yes, i am confused.
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On May 12 2014 20:11 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 19:54 Cheerio wrote:
The head of Mariupol police, Valeriy Androschuk, who was supposed to be hanged, is very much alive, and in fact was already released, according to Avakov. The details are not disclosed but it's supposed that a pretty big ransom was payed. At this point any information regarding eastern Ukraine may as well be ignored. What the hell is anyone supposed to believe? And yes, i am confused.
Earlier information was published by separatists and basically all media referenced them as the source. So don't believe separatists?
On May 11 2014 22:27 Ghanburighan wrote:
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Regarding Mariupol's chief of police being found dead earlier:
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On May 12 2014 19:28 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 07:20 Mc wrote:On May 12 2014 07:03 Cheerio wrote:On May 12 2014 06:52 Mc wrote:@sekritzz Russia achieved it's aims through propaganda,subterfuge, and military force. It wasn't a level playing ground since Russia had so much more influence in Ukraine. The annexation of E. Ukraine is very unlikely, given that the Ukrainian army is in that region at the moment and Russia hasn't made any moves to annex/invade so far. I will support your one statement on how poor W. Ukraine is in comparison to E. Ukraine: GDP by region of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita sekritzz should actually take a look at the distribution. Lugansk oblast is not rich at all by Ukrainian standards. And Donetsk oblast is only one of 5 rich ones. The thing about Donbass is not that it's so rich, it's just very densely populated (by Ukrainian standrards), so they have high GDP total compared to others. Good point cheerio. The wiki article is still quite informative to show that most of Ukraine's GDP comes from the center/east. I assume that Western Ukraine is almost all agriculture while the center/east has more industry/mining? Another link showing salary/region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Average_monthly_salary_in_Ukraine,_FY2013.jpgedit: I heard that Yanukovych was very "good" for his region of Donetsk so that could influence why it stood out so much? I'd still assume the major reason is the industry/mining in Donetsk region. it was because the soviet empire put a lot of their industrial production facilities in eastern ukraine. Also I was not only refering to donetsk and lugansk. I am refering to the entire east because at this moment it is an almost bygone conclusion. lets be realistic. Ukraine army cant do anything. They have separatists in their own country, a police force which is not under their command and they are heavily relying on neo nazis to do their dirty work such as shooting rpgs at a building in a city. im almost certain 3-4 more regions will follow suit. why would anyone stay on a sinking ship? Ukraine is completely bankrupt and russia offers them more wealth and security. I dont support Russia but its time to be realistic where this is heading.
patriotism maybe?
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On May 12 2014 21:00 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 19:28 sekritzzz wrote:On May 12 2014 07:20 Mc wrote:On May 12 2014 07:03 Cheerio wrote:On May 12 2014 06:52 Mc wrote:@sekritzz Russia achieved it's aims through propaganda,subterfuge, and military force. It wasn't a level playing ground since Russia had so much more influence in Ukraine. The annexation of E. Ukraine is very unlikely, given that the Ukrainian army is in that region at the moment and Russia hasn't made any moves to annex/invade so far. I will support your one statement on how poor W. Ukraine is in comparison to E. Ukraine: GDP by region of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita sekritzz should actually take a look at the distribution. Lugansk oblast is not rich at all by Ukrainian standards. And Donetsk oblast is only one of 5 rich ones. The thing about Donbass is not that it's so rich, it's just very densely populated (by Ukrainian standrards), so they have high GDP total compared to others. Good point cheerio. The wiki article is still quite informative to show that most of Ukraine's GDP comes from the center/east. I assume that Western Ukraine is almost all agriculture while the center/east has more industry/mining? Another link showing salary/region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Average_monthly_salary_in_Ukraine,_FY2013.jpgedit: I heard that Yanukovych was very "good" for his region of Donetsk so that could influence why it stood out so much? I'd still assume the major reason is the industry/mining in Donetsk region. it was because the soviet empire put a lot of their industrial production facilities in eastern ukraine. Also I was not only refering to donetsk and lugansk. I am refering to the entire east because at this moment it is an almost bygone conclusion. lets be realistic. Ukraine army cant do anything. They have separatists in their own country, a police force which is not under their command and they are heavily relying on neo nazis to do their dirty work such as shooting rpgs at a building in a city. im almost certain 3-4 more regions will follow suit. why would anyone stay on a sinking ship? Ukraine is completely bankrupt and russia offers them more wealth and security. I dont support Russia but its time to be realistic where this is heading. patriotism maybe?
How is Russia offering them wealth and security for the future when every former USSR state that turned to the west instead of the east is prospering more then those who went the other way?
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On May 12 2014 21:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 21:00 Cheerio wrote:On May 12 2014 19:28 sekritzzz wrote:On May 12 2014 07:20 Mc wrote:On May 12 2014 07:03 Cheerio wrote:On May 12 2014 06:52 Mc wrote:@sekritzz Russia achieved it's aims through propaganda,subterfuge, and military force. It wasn't a level playing ground since Russia had so much more influence in Ukraine. The annexation of E. Ukraine is very unlikely, given that the Ukrainian army is in that region at the moment and Russia hasn't made any moves to annex/invade so far. I will support your one statement on how poor W. Ukraine is in comparison to E. Ukraine: GDP by region of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita sekritzz should actually take a look at the distribution. Lugansk oblast is not rich at all by Ukrainian standards. And Donetsk oblast is only one of 5 rich ones. The thing about Donbass is not that it's so rich, it's just very densely populated (by Ukrainian standrards), so they have high GDP total compared to others. Good point cheerio. The wiki article is still quite informative to show that most of Ukraine's GDP comes from the center/east. I assume that Western Ukraine is almost all agriculture while the center/east has more industry/mining? Another link showing salary/region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Average_monthly_salary_in_Ukraine,_FY2013.jpgedit: I heard that Yanukovych was very "good" for his region of Donetsk so that could influence why it stood out so much? I'd still assume the major reason is the industry/mining in Donetsk region. it was because the soviet empire put a lot of their industrial production facilities in eastern ukraine. Also I was not only refering to donetsk and lugansk. I am refering to the entire east because at this moment it is an almost bygone conclusion. lets be realistic. Ukraine army cant do anything. They have separatists in their own country, a police force which is not under their command and they are heavily relying on neo nazis to do their dirty work such as shooting rpgs at a building in a city. im almost certain 3-4 more regions will follow suit. why would anyone stay on a sinking ship? Ukraine is completely bankrupt and russia offers them more wealth and security. I dont support Russia but its time to be realistic where this is heading. patriotism maybe? How is Russia offering them wealth and security for the future when every former USSR state that turned to the west instead of the east is prospering more then those who went the other way?
you watch/read too much propaganda
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On May 12 2014 21:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 21:00 Cheerio wrote:On May 12 2014 19:28 sekritzzz wrote:On May 12 2014 07:20 Mc wrote:On May 12 2014 07:03 Cheerio wrote:On May 12 2014 06:52 Mc wrote:@sekritzz Russia achieved it's aims through propaganda,subterfuge, and military force. It wasn't a level playing ground since Russia had so much more influence in Ukraine. The annexation of E. Ukraine is very unlikely, given that the Ukrainian army is in that region at the moment and Russia hasn't made any moves to annex/invade so far. I will support your one statement on how poor W. Ukraine is in comparison to E. Ukraine: GDP by region of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_subdivisions_by_GDP_per_capita sekritzz should actually take a look at the distribution. Lugansk oblast is not rich at all by Ukrainian standards. And Donetsk oblast is only one of 5 rich ones. The thing about Donbass is not that it's so rich, it's just very densely populated (by Ukrainian standrards), so they have high GDP total compared to others. Good point cheerio. The wiki article is still quite informative to show that most of Ukraine's GDP comes from the center/east. I assume that Western Ukraine is almost all agriculture while the center/east has more industry/mining? Another link showing salary/region: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Average_monthly_salary_in_Ukraine,_FY2013.jpgedit: I heard that Yanukovych was very "good" for his region of Donetsk so that could influence why it stood out so much? I'd still assume the major reason is the industry/mining in Donetsk region. it was because the soviet empire put a lot of their industrial production facilities in eastern ukraine. Also I was not only refering to donetsk and lugansk. I am refering to the entire east because at this moment it is an almost bygone conclusion. lets be realistic. Ukraine army cant do anything. They have separatists in their own country, a police force which is not under their command and they are heavily relying on neo nazis to do their dirty work such as shooting rpgs at a building in a city. im almost certain 3-4 more regions will follow suit. why would anyone stay on a sinking ship? Ukraine is completely bankrupt and russia offers them more wealth and security. I dont support Russia but its time to be realistic where this is heading. patriotism maybe? How is Russia offering them wealth and security for the future when every former USSR state that turned to the west instead of the east is prospering more then those who went the other way?
why are you asking me? Im not agreeing with him.
On topic. Russian oppositional news channel Dojd ("Rain") published an interview of a previously captured and already released russian journalist Pavel Kanygin.
http://tvrain.ru/articles/menja_doprashivali_razdeli_i_bili_zhurnalist_novoj_kanygin_vyshel_na_svjaz_s_dozhdem_srazu_posle_osvobozhdenija-368243/
Text version available here
http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/05/12/7025100/
In short he and his colleague from Germany were captured by separatists. They got beat up, interrogated, robbed. Separatists blamed them that they were CIA agents and intended to demand ransom but then changed their minds and when he was unconscious, returned him to his hotel.
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^People in the Western parts of Ukraine see the prosperity and lifestyle of their relatives in Poland and that's why they reject what Russia has to offer.
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EU for sale:
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Debunked:
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Interesting for speculation, `polycentric' is entirely new and seems to carry some weird ideology where states have areas of interest in their region where they can decide which laws apply. But anybody's interpretation is as good as mine at this point.
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Humour: Remember when I wrote that the people working the Russian MFA aren't that well educated, so they tend to take criticisms pointed at them and try to use them against the West without any real thought put into it. Well, check these out:
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Hey LegalLord, remember when we talked about russia being a joke n stuff?
Russia said on Monday it respected the outcome of a referendum on self-rule in two east Ukrainian regions and that the results should be implemented peacefully. reuters
Under normal circumstances i'd say "they can't be serious", it's not even funny anymore.
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CNN thinks Ukraine is somewhere over there ^^
![[image loading]](http://kor.ill.in.ua/m/400x253/1416260.jpg)
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Zurich15359 Posts
"Let's just recycle that map animation from Afghanistan, should be close enough"
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EPT
