|
Ever since Heart of the swarm, it seems as if zerg has been having a lack of anti-air and air control. Mutas can help, but they only control the skies if there is another unit to knock out any other sky threat. Protoss air-play has become more dominant and pheonixes seem to shut down muta play extremely well., Terran medivac drops have become much more powerful with widow mine drops and the ignite afterburners ability, and mutalisks seem to dominate the new zerg versus zerg mirror matchup. Not to mention, zerg doesnt have a "air" playstyle, such as terran and protoss does because of their many air units, whereas zerg only has mutalisks, corrupters and broodlords, all of which can be beaten if their counter is brought to the table. So im proposing an idea to invoke thought into you players. The re-addition of the old broodwar scourge.
Protoss have been dominating the skies as of late versus zerg. Corrupters get shut down almost too well but void rays and group support, which makes brood lords a lot more vulnerbale to air play. Not just that, but void rays themself are extremely powerful. Mass amounts of void rays are shut down by good fungals, but if its split what then? Hydras are barely cost efficient, and they have a range of 7 (?) and get +1 range vs targets allready being fired at, going into a range of 8. Mass one units are very rarely effective and shouldnt be. Mix this with colossus, and almost nothing that zerg has can kill this. Swarm hosts take too long, vipers can be shut down by high templars, hydras melt from high templars and colossus, and any other AOE, and corrupters get shut down by stalkers and void rays. If scourges are introduced, or reintroduced, zerg can stand a chance versus this army composition, and it will need counterplay also. Because colossus can be hit by AA, scourges shouldnt ourtight counter them with sufficient support. That is the role of courrpters. So how do we differenciate them? Scourges deal a lot of damage to all they hit excluding massive units, dealing a tiny amount of damage and dealing AOE. So the engagements will look something like this: While the ground army moves in to attack the zerg or vice-versa, The stalkers are distracted, especialy if ultras or corrupters are included, allowing the scourges to fly in from multiple dirrections to avoid much AOE damage. Otherwise, this composition is so powerful.
Another problem zerg is having is with mutalisks. Their effectiveness if arguable. I argue that phoenixes are too powerful and shut that play down, but others argue that they aren't a very good investment. But in combining both opinions, I (my opinion) conclude that mutas are a coin flip playstyle: if the tech isn't scouted and stargates aren't made yet, mutas can do damage, however it can be defended. This is the kind of damage they should do overtime: slow. But they do slow damage until pheonixes are out, then the mutas are useless. Now with scourge, we have an interesting happening: phoenix vs muta-scourge. The scourge can chase away the phoenixes for a short time, allowing the mutas to do some damage, and they fly out once teh army arrives. Even though phoenixes may counter scourge, scourge also counter phoenixes if not microed correctly.
Because of broodlord infestor play in WoL, the extreme power of warp prism drops was fair. But now, with no (at least not yet known) poweful zerg composition that, these drops were left unchecked by balance. With scourges, these drops can be shut down if placed right. This isn't just for warp prism, however. Speed medivac drops with widow mines have been extremely prominent, capable of destroying an entire resource line with ease. Not only this, but terrans have gotten so used to dropping in WoL, that this ability wrecks the zergs and protosses now. Positioning scourges along the perimeter of the zerg airspace and microing them to catch (and to dodge, in the case of the medivacs) will be a fun thing for players to watch. This can also shut down multiprong medivac drops, if that gets too imba. This can also shut down oracle and banshee play. However, this doesn't shut down protoss air openings; only the powerful void ray colossus pushes. Phoenixes can be made along with oracles and void rays. The phoenixes shut down and protect the voids and oracles from the scourges, making actually more interesting openings. Banshee play still works in early game, but not annoying later game mass banshee play, which is common and good vs low level zerg.
Zerg versus Zerg is now dominated by mutalisks as of late. With the infestor nerfs and mutalisk buffs, any player watching a high level zerg versus zerg stream sees that at least one player opens mutalisks every game. Eventualy, we will see mass muta versus mass muta. Because scourge do not exists, its macro versus macro mutalisk fights: little micro. Introducing scourge can introduce a micro heavy and entertaining new zerg versus zerg meta. Of course, the scourge will need muta support, because then muta play would just get wrecked by scourge without any micro. The scourge will have to move slower and accelerate a bit slower than the mutas.
(Rough idea. This is how I view the meta should be.)
Idea for stats:
Light, biological
Cost: 50/25 (for a pair), 20 seconds, 0.5 supply each.
Hp: 27
Damage: 125 (-100 versus massive, making it 25)
AOE: size of baneling detonation, damage falloff
+5 damage per damage upgrade, and +2 vs massive per upgrade
Armor: 0
Remember AOE can potentially wreck scourges. Storm, thor missile, fungal.
Spores can 1 hit them, no matter their HP
Post balance suggestions and feedback if you feel so.
Thank you for reading!
~Graham "DilemaH" Buceta
|
i think the beta is done bro. it comes out next week.
|
I know, Its an idea though. I had so many, I had to post at least 1.
|
The biggest problems i have with this is that
- It doesn't fix anything about ZvP or ZvT
- The scourge rewards macro, not micro.
- Depending on the speed, the scourge is either OP or Useless. Because there is no positional play in the sky, either the widow mine, thor and storms are all too slow to do their full dmg against the incoming scourge or they are fast enough and no amount of scourge can come in. How could you ever balance this?
Taken from a ground perspective: The banelings is AoE and pathing / positional play. You could argue that certain units like the immortal and thor are counters as well. Banelings are used vs structures, to bust and punish poor placed wall-ins as an example.
Scourge do not get blocked, they will dominate the sky since there are no air forcefields or structures in the air. Even if terran lifts their buildings they don't block, everything can fly through them.
|
Always loved the scourge but, even if it would be a great addition, i don't think there is hope to see it in game before Legacy of the Void is out.
|
An examply why it doesn't fix the ZvP match-up:
Lets say Protoss as the ultimate army consisting of: Voidray, Tempest, Carrier and High Templar.
Tempest and Carrier are both massive, they will trade incredibly cost effective vs the scourge. As you mentioned, the high templar is the supposed counter to the scourge. Zerg could only ever hope to take out the Voidray's and that is if the scourge could fly in that close and AoE Bomb them down and if the scourge work while 3 counter units are on the map, i think that we can all conclude that the unit would simply be OP.
|
Stinart:
I think the scourge should be equal speed to the phoenix or slower. Youre right about it all depending on speed. I just dont like it versus air armies. They would shut it down. It should be a unit that is more defensive or offensive depending on what you're up against. Its just a unit that if introduced, it would have to fill in many holes at once; it cannot be done. Maybe it can if done perfectly, but thats too hard.
Sinart post 2:
As I mentioned, I dont see it as a counter to airtoss/airterran. Maybe they can be used to kill interceptors for cool plays, but I see them unfathomable zerg the big air armys.
|
Actually, I think Zerg is fine in SC2.
There's really no need for an "air option" if the Zerg's ground army has sufficient flexibility and mobility to deal with air units. In BroodWar, the scourge didn't even actually open the door for Zerg players to have a viable air-force option. In Zerg versus Terran, Zerg players will, in fact, almost always open with mutalisks, but there's a catch to this - Terran players use a very mobile ground force to threaten the Zerg, and engaging the Terran's ground force can be suicidal. Even when the Terran player decides to open with wraiths, scourge are not actually effective in dealing with wraiths.
In PvZ, it's very common for Protoss to have a fleet of corsairs, which work similar to phoenixes, minus the ability to levitate things. In fact, it's not uncommon for Protoss to have very strong air control in BroodWar against Zerg, but because the Zerg player can build a very mobile force with anti-air and high DPS, it can be very difficult for Protoss players to capitalize on having air control. So, where do scourge fit into this match-up? Well, they can be used to snipe single shuttles, or a small number of corsairs. They also are used to kill observers, arbiters, and very rarely (but it definitely happens), carriers. In a large aerial battle against a massive number of corsairs, scourge become rather inefficient because the corsair DPS and splash area just disintegrate them. Only with a large number of supporting mutalisks with carapace upgrades do scourge become effective against corsairs, but even then, the Zerg has to commit so much money to air units that they have to build a large number of sunken colonies to defend themselves against a ground attack from the Protoss.
So, the point is: scourge are used as snipes against single units, or small groups of units. In large aerial battles, like something you'd see in a BGH game, scourge are almost always absent from these battles, unless they're used to snipe a science vessel or arbiter. For sniping a single phoenix or void ray, I could see scourge being used, but as far as being useful in a large aerial battle, I don't see much use for them, mainly because the void ray splash damage would eat them.
|
Canada11349 Posts
On March 06 2013 07:51 Stingart wrote:
The biggest problems i have with this is that
- It doesn't fix anything about ZvP or ZvT
- The scourge rewards macro, not micro.
- Depending on the speed, the scourge is either OP or Useless. Because there is no positional play in the sky, either the widow mine, thor and storms are all too slow to do their full dmg against the incoming scourge or they are fast enough and no amount of scourge can come in. How could you ever balance this?
Taken from a ground perspective: The banelings is AoE and pathing / positional play. You could argue that certain units like the immortal and thor are counters as well. Banelings are used vs structures, to bust and punish poor placed wall-ins as an example.
Scourge do not get blocked, they will dominate the sky since there are no air forcefields or structures in the air. Even if terran lifts their buildings they don't block, everything can fly through them.
I would say the exact opposite on many of your points.
I have no idea whether it would fix zvp or zvt.
However, scourge rewards micro as long as units are redesigned to properly micro against them. The Chinese Triangle is perhaps one of the most tricky and difficult timing micro that I've ever tried.
Although there is little positional play in Air to Air battles, scourge is the closest there is to creating positional play. If you look at the speed difference between scourge vs muta, vs shuttle, vs corsair it is very precise and creates very dynamic chases. Scourge can chase off units thus creating the closest thing you can get to spatial battles in the sky. The hunted can juke a bit to mess up the scourge ai to get away, but just a couple misclicks and the scourge will catch up.
But with properly designed units, these same hunted units can turn around and pick them off. Eventually with fast dps, critical mass will nullify scourge, but carriers never properly have that focused fire.
I haven't fully thought through how scourge interplays with other units and exactly why it created as many exciting situations as it did. However, I will maintain that it forced micro.
As a side note, one way of making Scourge powerful without being OP so that they need to be nerfed into oblivion is to still require manual selection of targets. That is if you tell 10 scourge to hit a battlecruiser all 10 will fly to the battlecruiser even if only 6-7 were needed. This again rewards the multi-tasker and the microer rather than making scourge ez-mode counter to anything air.
I have no clue if scourge would work in SC2, beta is over and this is probably a suggestion thread. But I must protest that scourge would OP or useless or that it rewards macro not micro.
|
Blizzard closed the beta before they made any good changes so I doubt this will be tested. I would love for scourge in sc2 though.
|
On March 06 2013 08:31 ninazerg wrote:
Actually, I think Zerg is fine in SC2.
There's really no need for an "air option" if the Zerg's ground army has sufficient flexibility and mobility to deal with air units. In BroodWar, the scourge didn't even actually open the door for Zerg players to have a viable air-force option. In Zerg versus Terran, Zerg players will, in fact, almost always open with mutalisks, but there's a catch to this - Terran players use a very mobile ground force to threaten the Zerg, and engaging the Terran's ground force can be suicidal. Even when the Terran player decides to open with wraiths, scourge are not actually effective in dealing with wraiths.
In PvZ, it's very common for Protoss to have a fleet of corsairs, which work similar to phoenixes, minus the ability to levitate things. In fact, it's not uncommon for Protoss to have very strong air control in BroodWar against Zerg, but because the Zerg player can build a very mobile force with anti-air and high DPS, it can be very difficult for Protoss players to capitalize on having air control. So, where do scourge fit into this match-up? Well, they can be used to snipe single shuttles, or a small number of corsairs. They also are used to kill observers, arbiters, and very rarely (but it definitely happens), carriers. In a large aerial battle against a massive number of corsairs, scourge become rather inefficient because the corsair DPS and splash area just disintegrate them. Only with a large number of supporting mutalisks with carapace upgrades do scourge become effective against corsairs, but even then, the Zerg has to commit so much money to air units that they have to build a large number of sunken colonies to defend themselves against a ground attack from the Protoss.
So, the point is: scourge are used as snipes against single units, or small groups of units. In large aerial battles, like something you'd see in a BGH game, scourge are almost always absent from these battles, unless they're used to snipe a science vessel or arbiter. For sniping a single phoenix or void ray, I could see scourge being used, but as far as being useful in a large aerial battle, I don't see much use for them, mainly because the void ray splash damage would eat them.
Void ray splash damage? Wut?
|
On March 06 2013 07:58 Stingart wrote:
An examply why it doesn't fix the ZvP match-up:
Lets say Protoss as the ultimate army consisting of: Voidray, Tempest, Carrier and High Templar.
Tempest and Carrier are both massive, they will trade incredibly cost effective vs the scourge. As you mentioned, the high templar is the supposed counter to the scourge. Zerg could only ever hope to take out the Voidray's and that is if the scourge could fly in that close and AoE Bomb them down and if the scourge work while 3 counter units are on the map, i think that we can all conclude that the unit would simply be OP.
The tempest is not massive. It is certainly big, though.
EDIT: liquipedia says it is massive, but im pretty sure i specifically noted it was not massive.
|
United States4991 Posts
On March 06 2013 10:22 Unsane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 07:58 Stingart wrote:
An examply why it doesn't fix the ZvP match-up:
Lets say Protoss as the ultimate army consisting of: Voidray, Tempest, Carrier and High Templar.
Tempest and Carrier are both massive, they will trade incredibly cost effective vs the scourge. As you mentioned, the high templar is the supposed counter to the scourge. Zerg could only ever hope to take out the Voidray's and that is if the scourge could fly in that close and AoE Bomb them down and if the scourge work while 3 counter units are on the map, i think that we can all conclude that the unit would simply be OP. The tempest is not massive. It is certainly big, though. EDIT: liquipedia says it is massive, but im pretty sure i specifically noted it was not massive.
It's massive. That's also why Tempests do tons of damage to each other.
(Couldn't resist posting this considering the similarity of our names  )
|
On March 06 2013 10:33 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 10:22 Unsane wrote:On March 06 2013 07:58 Stingart wrote:
An examply why it doesn't fix the ZvP match-up:
Lets say Protoss as the ultimate army consisting of: Voidray, Tempest, Carrier and High Templar.
Tempest and Carrier are both massive, they will trade incredibly cost effective vs the scourge. As you mentioned, the high templar is the supposed counter to the scourge. Zerg could only ever hope to take out the Voidray's and that is if the scourge could fly in that close and AoE Bomb them down and if the scourge work while 3 counter units are on the map, i think that we can all conclude that the unit would simply be OP. The tempest is not massive. It is certainly big, though. EDIT: liquipedia says it is massive, but im pretty sure i specifically noted it was not massive. It's massive. That's also why Tempests do tons of damage to each other. (Couldn't resist posting this considering the similarity of our names )
I wish i could have verified prior to claiming, but i swear they didn't annihilate each other and that helped them not be similar to colossi, considering they were trying to remove that old PvP colossi VS colossi battle.
(No, I'm the real one! )
|
If the scourge is going to be brought back I don't think it'll happen until the Protoss expansion. As mentioned, beta is far and done for this kind of thing.
|
Nice read,,,thx a lot,,a little late but hey there is patchs XD
|
The main reasons I suggested scourges are:
Because zerg had such a powerful army in WoL, players found out and mastered drops. With zerg not being as powerful in the lategame, these powerful drops have gone unchecked.
Add micro to ZvZ if it does end up being muta vs muta.
|
I would add additional passive ability to corruptor. Corruptor after death spawns two flying locusts who seeks for closest flying enemy and suicidally attacks enemy. Flying locusts attach to the enemy units and slowly drain it's HP. Can be killed - but attacks would hurt also units affected.
|
On March 06 2013 11:20 thetaoptimus wrote:
I would add additional passive ability to corruptor. Corruptor after death spawns two flying locusts who seeks for closest flying enemy and suicidally attacks enemy. Flying locusts attach to the enemy units and slowly drain it's HP. Can be killed - but attacks would hurt also units affected.
Thats cool and all, but I dont think its what we ant exactly. Remember your english/grammar class: Idea, Reasons, Explainations. I cant see why you would want this other than it being a cool gimick. I am totaly in favor of gimmicks though, they enable cool plays.
|
Canada11349 Posts
Yeah, I'll close it. Suggestion thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
