In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
One of Senator John McCains final speeches as he accepts the National Constitution Centers Liberty medal.
Give the speech a listen if you have time. It's very refreshing compared to Trump's disorganized rambling thoughts.
To fear the world we have organized and led for three-quarters of a century, to abandon the ideals we have advanced around the globe, to refuse the obligations of international leadership and our duty to remain 'the last best hope of earth' for the sake of some half-baked, spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems is as unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that Americans consigned to the ash heap of history,”
To fear the world we have organized and led for three-quarters of a century, to abandon the ideals we have advanced around the globe, to refuse the obligations of international leadership and our duty to remain 'the last best hope of earth' for the sake of some half-baked, spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems is as unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that Americans consigned to the ash heap of history,”
Ah, if Mc Cain actions had ever been at the level of his words, he would have been one if the great figures of american politics.
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
People who don't take Russia seriously are literal idiots.
Its not a conspiracy that Russia is abusing social media to sow chaos among all western democracies. Its not a secret that an Antifa twitter page encouraging violence was found to be a sockpuppet tweeting in Vladivostok. Its not a secret that a significant number of Bernie and Stein advertising on Facebook were funded by Russia to target the Bernie or Bust demographic. Its not a secret that most of Roy Moore's tens of thousands of recent Twitter followers were bots. Its not a secret that a good number of people pushing divisive hashtags regarding kneeling/standing for the flag were Russian bots.
These things are not secrets so thinking they're crackpot conspiracy theories is like saying God exists because we don't know how tides work.
And that's only the last month in the United States alone. We're completely ignoring Russia funding practically every anti-EU political party out in Europe. If American conservatives think Russia is their friend or are basically turning a blind eye simply because they helped Hillary Clinton lose (Clinton to LegalLord is Obama to Trump in that anything they did is automatically bad/wrong), they're going to be in for a shock in the future. They're not your friend and the decline of USA's influence is only beneficial for them - you only have to ask anyone who isn't an American what they think about the USA now.
On October 17 2017 16:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
People who don't take Russia seriously are literal idiots.
Its not a conspiracy that Russia is abusing social media to sow chaos among all western democracies. Its not a secret that an Antifa twitter page encouraging violence was found to be a sockpuppet tweeting in Vladivostok. Its not a secret that a significant number of Bernie and Stein advertising on Facebook were funded by Russia to target the Bernie or Bust demographic. Its not a secret that most of Roy Moore's tens of thousands of recent Twitter followers were bots. Its not a secret that a good number of people pushing divisive hashtags regarding kneeling/standing for the flag were Russian bots.
And that's only the last month in the United States alone. We're completely ignoring Russia funding practically every anti-EU political party out in Europe. If American conservatives think Russia is their friend or are basically turning a blind eye simply because they helped Hillary Clinton lose (Clinton to LegalLord is Obama to Trump), they're going to be in for a shock in the future. They're not your friend and the decline of the USA is only beneficial for them.
People shouldn't think that this is because Russia is evil. They are simply doing what every country does but more effectively. Its textbook hostile diplomatic foreign policy. Confuse and weaken your rivals without being aggressive. Cause chaos while insulating yourself from any consequences. I can't understand why people would think this isn't happening, it obviously is.
On October 17 2017 16:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
People who don't take Russia seriously are literal idiots.
Its not a conspiracy that Russia is abusing social media to sow chaos among all western democracies. Its not a secret that an Antifa twitter page encouraging violence was found to be a sockpuppet tweeting in Vladivostok. Its not a secret that a significant number of Bernie and Stein advertising on Facebook were funded by Russia to target the Bernie or Bust demographic. Its not a secret that most of Roy Moore's tens of thousands of recent Twitter followers were bots. Its not a secret that a good number of people pushing divisive hashtags regarding kneeling/standing for the flag were Russian bots.
And that's only the last month in the United States alone. We're completely ignoring Russia funding practically every anti-EU political party out in Europe. If American conservatives think Russia is their friend or are basically turning a blind eye simply because they helped Hillary Clinton lose (Clinton to LegalLord is Obama to Trump), they're going to be in for a shock in the future. They're not your friend and the decline of the USA is only beneficial for them.
People shouldn't think that this is because Russia is evil. They are simply doing what every country does but more effectively. Its textbook hostile diplomatic foreign policy. Confuse and weaken your rivals without being aggressive. Cause chaos while insulating yourself from any consequences. I can't understand why people would think this isn't happening, it obviously is.
Which is a problem for the USA because a good number of posters in this thread think that Russia is ineffective at worst and completely benign at best. They're completely resistant/dismissive to the idea that it might actually be an issue and I have no goddamn idea why. You can believe that Russia is actively interfering with American political life (which is pretty damn serious if you ask me) and believe that Hillary Clinton is a dumbass arrogant bitch...these things are actually mutually exclusive.
I can't see how that position on Russia is one anyone can hold in good faith unless you literally don't read the news or only get your news from Fox News. Heck, I think even Breitbart has reported Russian interference.
Even if we ignore all the evidence from the USA and Europe, its within the interest of a major geopolitical power to do that. Its literally same as believing that phone companies don't astroturf on tech forums. You have to be more naive than a week old puppy to hold that position in good faith. Shit, Teamliquid only has a tech support subforum and we've had our own share of Samsung astroturfers.
On October 17 2017 16:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
People who don't take Russia seriously are literal idiots.
Its not a conspiracy that Russia is abusing social media to sow chaos among all western democracies. Its not a secret that an Antifa twitter page encouraging violence was found to be a sockpuppet tweeting in Vladivostok. Its not a secret that a significant number of Bernie and Stein advertising on Facebook were funded by Russia to target the Bernie or Bust demographic. Its not a secret that most of Roy Moore's tens of thousands of recent Twitter followers were bots. Its not a secret that a good number of people pushing divisive hashtags regarding kneeling/standing for the flag were Russian bots.
And that's only the last month in the United States alone. We're completely ignoring Russia funding practically every anti-EU political party out in Europe. If American conservatives think Russia is their friend or are basically turning a blind eye simply because they helped Hillary Clinton lose (Clinton to LegalLord is Obama to Trump), they're going to be in for a shock in the future. They're not your friend and the decline of the USA is only beneficial for them.
People shouldn't think that this is because Russia is evil. They are simply doing what every country does but more effectively. Its textbook hostile diplomatic foreign policy. Confuse and weaken your rivals without being aggressive. Cause chaos while insulating yourself from any consequences. I can't understand why people would think this isn't happening, it obviously is.
Russia is led with an iron grip by Putin who is at best an extremely dangerous man. It's not Russia the problem, but the regime. And even though i am not into good vs evil stuff, Putin and his kleptcrars are certainly not on the "good" side of anything at all.
Rep. Tom Marino, R-Pa., has withdrawn his name from consideration as America's drug czar, President Trump said Tuesday. Marino is stepping back days after reports that a bill he sponsored hindered the Drug Enforcement Administration in its fight against the U.S. opioid crisis.
A joint report by The Washington Post and 60 Minutes found that Marino's bill "helped pump more painkillers into parts of the country that were already in the middle of the opioid crisis," as NPR's Kelly McEvers said earlier this week. The bill was opposed by the DEA and embraced by companies in the drug industry.
The president had nominated Marino to lead the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy. In his tweet announcing Marino's decision to withdraw Tuesday morning, Trump added, "Tom is a fine man and a great Congressman!"
On October 17 2017 16:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
People who don't take Russia seriously are literal idiots.
Its not a conspiracy that Russia is abusing social media to sow chaos among all western democracies. Its not a secret that an Antifa twitter page encouraging violence was found to be a sockpuppet tweeting in Vladivostok. Its not a secret that a significant number of Bernie and Stein advertising on Facebook were funded by Russia to target the Bernie or Bust demographic. Its not a secret that most of Roy Moore's tens of thousands of recent Twitter followers were bots. Its not a secret that a good number of people pushing divisive hashtags regarding kneeling/standing for the flag were Russian bots.
And that's only the last month in the United States alone. We're completely ignoring Russia funding practically every anti-EU political party out in Europe. If American conservatives think Russia is their friend or are basically turning a blind eye simply because they helped Hillary Clinton lose (Clinton to LegalLord is Obama to Trump), they're going to be in for a shock in the future. They're not your friend and the decline of the USA is only beneficial for them.
People shouldn't think that this is because Russia is evil. They are simply doing what every country does but more effectively. Its textbook hostile diplomatic foreign policy. Confuse and weaken your rivals without being aggressive. Cause chaos while insulating yourself from any consequences. I can't understand why people would think this isn't happening, it obviously is.
Russia is led with an iron grip by Putin who is at best an extremely dangerous man. It's not Russia the problem, but the regime. And even though i am not into good vs evil stuff, Putin and his kleptcrars are certainly not on the "good" side of anything at all.
Exactly. Putin spent that last 17 years repressing anyone who had power that we would consider “good”. Putin and his goons are completely self interested and want to undermine anyone they see as an opponent. That includes most of the EU and US.
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
That's not what I said, that's what you would have liked me to have said. Your reading comprehension needs work.
But by all means, do enjoy this whole "all these bad things in the world - it's just Russia!" deflection. It makes for a nice feel-good narrative, to be able to blame a foreign devil rather than yourself for a world that just doesn't act the way you wish it did. You certainly wouldn't be the only one who likes to peddle that crap.
No one said "Russia is evil and responsible for everything"". You wrote that. No one said ""all these bad things in the world - it's just Russia!"". You wrote that too. Don't quote words and make up arguments that no one wrote. On the other hand we have quoted what you have written in this very page.
Just remember that the US and CIA has been blamed for doing the exact same thing Russia is doing right now. The UK before us. Driving division in national elections and the general population is an old tactic used by intelligence services. The countries would love to handle their own problems if foreign actors were not so dead set on fucking with them.
Yes, but no one actually denies that it occurs. Does anyone deny that American or British intelligence services have attempted to influence foreign governments? We know that Russia certainly does. Except Legalord. Who is obsessed with Clinton electability ( Russia pushed effective attacks against her during the election), casting the EU as some sort of demonic entity (which Russia again attacks on a regular basis), and for some reason as an American is convinced that democracy does not work. God bless his little soul.
On October 17 2017 16:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
People who don't take Russia seriously are literal idiots.
Its not a conspiracy that Russia is abusing social media to sow chaos among all western democracies. Its not a secret that an Antifa twitter page encouraging violence was found to be a sockpuppet tweeting in Vladivostok. Its not a secret that a significant number of Bernie and Stein advertising on Facebook were funded by Russia to target the Bernie or Bust demographic. Its not a secret that most of Roy Moore's tens of thousands of recent Twitter followers were bots. Its not a secret that a good number of people pushing divisive hashtags regarding kneeling/standing for the flag were Russian bots.
And that's only the last month in the United States alone. We're completely ignoring Russia funding practically every anti-EU political party out in Europe. If American conservatives think Russia is their friend or are basically turning a blind eye simply because they helped Hillary Clinton lose (Clinton to LegalLord is Obama to Trump), they're going to be in for a shock in the future. They're not your friend and the decline of the USA is only beneficial for them.
People shouldn't think that this is because Russia is evil. They are simply doing what every country does but more effectively. Its textbook hostile diplomatic foreign policy. Confuse and weaken your rivals without being aggressive. Cause chaos while insulating yourself from any consequences. I can't understand why people would think this isn't happening, it obviously is.
Which is a problem for the USA because a good number of posters in this thread think that Russia is ineffective at worst and completely benign at best. They're completely resistant/dismissive to the idea that it might actually be an issue and I have no goddamn idea why. You can believe that Russia is actively interfering with American political life (which is pretty damn serious if you ask me) and believe that Hillary Clinton is a dumbass arrogant bitch...these things are actually mutually exclusive.
I can't see how that position on Russia is one anyone can hold in good faith unless you literally don't read the news or only get your news from Fox News. Heck, I think even Breitbart has reported Russian interference.
Even if we ignore all the evidence from the USA and Europe, its within the interest of a major geopolitical power to do that. Its literally same as believing that phone companies don't astroturf on tech forums. You have to be more naive than a week old puppy to hold that position in good faith. Shit, Teamliquid only has a tech support subforum and we've had our own share of Samsung astroturfers.
Don’t blow up their influence and reach and it’s very easy to understand how Russia sowed discord. You’re inventing opposition because you want people at your level of hysteria.
And now comes the part where people try to focus the debate on how bad the influence was and if one side is hysterical. Because if you focus on that, you don’t focus solutions. Keep people focused on if the thing is real, like racism or sexual harassment.
On October 17 2017 22:50 Plansix wrote: And now comes the part where people try to focus the debate on how bad the influence was and if one side is hysterical. Because if you focus on that, you don’t focus solutions. Keep people focused on if the thing is real, like racism or sexual harassment.
Or whistleblowers and.how little.shit.people give for them. You see recordings of people after the fact trying to cover Weinstein up and blacklisting anyone who comes.close to making waves.
On October 17 2017 16:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 17 2017 12:15 LegalLord wrote: Haha, this "Russia is evil and responsible for everything" conspiratard lot is hilarious. Soon we'll start blaming earthquakes in Haiti on Russia too.
Listen, you said for months and months that despite all the evidence in the world Russia was of course not involved in meddling in the american elections and that it was all a hoax. You have earned the right to shut up on the matter.
People who don't take Russia seriously are literal idiots.
Its not a conspiracy that Russia is abusing social media to sow chaos among all western democracies. Its not a secret that an Antifa twitter page encouraging violence was found to be a sockpuppet tweeting in Vladivostok. Its not a secret that a significant number of Bernie and Stein advertising on Facebook were funded by Russia to target the Bernie or Bust demographic. Its not a secret that most of Roy Moore's tens of thousands of recent Twitter followers were bots. Its not a secret that a good number of people pushing divisive hashtags regarding kneeling/standing for the flag were Russian bots.
And that's only the last month in the United States alone. We're completely ignoring Russia funding practically every anti-EU political party out in Europe. If American conservatives think Russia is their friend or are basically turning a blind eye simply because they helped Hillary Clinton lose (Clinton to LegalLord is Obama to Trump), they're going to be in for a shock in the future. They're not your friend and the decline of the USA is only beneficial for them.
People shouldn't think that this is because Russia is evil. They are simply doing what every country does but more effectively. Its textbook hostile diplomatic foreign policy. Confuse and weaken your rivals without being aggressive. Cause chaos while insulating yourself from any consequences. I can't understand why people would think this isn't happening, it obviously is.
Which is a problem for the USA because a good number of posters in this thread think that Russia is ineffective at worst and completely benign at best. They're completely resistant/dismissive to the idea that it might actually be an issue and I have no goddamn idea why. You can believe that Russia is actively interfering with American political life (which is pretty damn serious if you ask me) and believe that Hillary Clinton is a dumbass arrogant bitch...these things are actually mutually exclusive.
I can't see how that position on Russia is one anyone can hold in good faith unless you literally don't read the news or only get your news from Fox News. Heck, I think even Breitbart has reported Russian interference.
Even if we ignore all the evidence from the USA and Europe, its within the interest of a major geopolitical power to do that. Its literally same as believing that phone companies don't astroturf on tech forums. You have to be more naive than a week old puppy to hold that position in good faith. Shit, Teamliquid only has a tech support subforum and we've had our own share of Samsung astroturfers.
Don’t blow up their influence and reach and it’s very easy to understand how Russia sowed discord. You’re inventing opposition because you want people at your level of hysteria.
Danglar, if Russia had meddled in, colluded, manipulated and worked the way it has to get Clinton elected and had succeeded (by a tiny margin) you would have gone batshit crazy. And you would be right.
If you don't want to be honest with people here at least be ho est with yourself. The fact that your guy won doesn't make acceptable the fact that was has happen is incredibly serious and scary for american demicracy, and you should recognize it. It's intellectual integrity 101.
As a person who lives in a country which has been for literally centuries exploited and controlled by Russia I would like to say to everyone who says "oh Russia isn't that bad/scary": don't underestimate Russians and their thirst for power and control. Putin isn't a western-style politician, he's a former KGB agent who ruthlessly eradicated all opposition to his rule (using methods such as political assassinations and sending opponents to labor camps on bogus charges), regularly starts conflicts on Russian borders (Crimea is only the latest example) and supports dictators to maintain his influence and stir unrest in the regions surrounding the country. And now this person has an army of internet trolls at his service, extending his reach far further that ever before. If he can do something to fuck up his rivals/enemies, he'll do it without a second thought.
Making a hypothetical situation based on a false equivalency into reality because you're projecting how potentially hypocritical he would be under your hypothetical situation is intellectual integrity 101?
I'm not entirely sure what I just wrote but I'm 70% its correct.
EPT
