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On August 16 2017 09:25 TheYango wrote:
Kwark and Plansix argue with GH on a regular basis. The fact that they're "on the same side" doesn't stop the left-leaning posters from critically challenging GH's viewpoint when they disagree.
Kwark is probably borderline Tory especially on economic issues. Not believing that the US is built on fascism is apparently radical left-wing belief. The whole American spectrum has spiraled so heavily that formerly Conservative positions i.e behaving like a decent, rational and civil individual are considered to be partisan
Trump genuinely represents the descent into authoritarian, irrational politics and people who said this a year ago where not being hyperbolic
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Having disagreements with people of similar political leaning is the corner stone of democracy. Conservatism in this thread seems to default to whining about left represses them, which is not really a way to discuss politics.
Edit: lol the president was right, you hear that GOP. No dissenting opinions for you.
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And as frazzle brought up a number of pages ago, the conservative movement has a lot to hang its hat on all things considered, particularly in the courts and in state legislatures/governor's mansions. There's too much overt focus on the federal government and folks end up missing out on the bulk of what actually goes on here, Trump's tacit encouragement of white supremacists and overall awful job as president notwithstanding.
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The president was not only correct but "entirely" correct. How is it that mans ego seems to be obvious through every single thing that happens in the White House?
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I can hear Stephen Miller's voice while reading that briefing.
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When was it ICE's job to go after white supremacists?
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Like, most GOP congress people have already condemned his statements on twitter. Not sure what he expects them to do?
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Those talking points are deeply invested in citing twitter, which is telling.
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Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this.
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So be a grown up and pick your battles. Just say "let's focus on dealing with the Nazis for now, ok?" And have that fight another day.
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On August 16 2017 10:04 Introvert wrote:Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this: + Show Spoiler +which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this.
Except the "me" being Trump did not say "Nazis are bad", which was the start of the problem.
And then got on a podium on a national level and continued "Well, wait a minute..." by actually being a Nazi apologist.
Edit: I'm starting to think Trump believes "Strawman" to be an actual individual who he aspires to be like.
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On August 16 2017 10:04 Introvert wrote:Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this: + Show Spoiler +which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this.
How about you actually make that argument? Lots of conservatives are tried to make the "b-b-b-b-but Antifa/Alt-Left" argument stick. Why don't you actually pony up some real evidence of violence at Charlotesville that was Antifa induced. And then you need to make the critical second part of the argument: that antifa is linked to the broader Left/Dems.
We have the video from VICE. We have lots of news reports. Pony up the evidence that Antifa violence was anything comparable to the armed beatings that the racists were handing out in Virginia. Then pony up evidence linking Antifa back to the broader Left/Dems.
EDIT: I will do the opposite task. The VICE video is RIFE with violence being doled out by the racist side. And then after all that incitement, one of them ran a car into a group of unarmed SJWs on the street. That is the first showing. Now for the second critical linkage from that to the broader right/Republicans: the Republican President just today unleashed a rambling, hateful, incoherent press conference where he managed to somehow blame both sides when the racist side is an avatar of evil. Trump even managed to say that some of the racists weren't even that bad. Just like Matt Walsh, the President managed to find a way to say it is somehow the left's fault for the acts of evil racists (who happen to be wearing his MAGA hats). That is a linkage.
VICE
+ Show Spoiler +
Trump
https://www.c-span.org/video/?432633-1/president-trump-says-blame-sides-violence-charlottesville&start=390
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On August 16 2017 10:04 Introvert wrote:Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this: + Show Spoiler +which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this.
just because you feel it doesn't mean it's accurate; and indeed that's one o fht eproblems in general; a lot of people "feel" a lot of things ot be true that simply aren't actually true.
more dedication to truth rather than truthiness is needed.
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On August 16 2017 10:09 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 10:04 Introvert wrote:Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this: + Show Spoiler +which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this. Except the "me" being Trump did not say "Nazis are bad", which was the start of the problem. And then got on a podium on a national level and continued "Well, wait a minute..." by actually being a Nazi apologist. Edit: I'm starting to think Trump believes "Strawman" to be an actual individual who he aspires to be like.
Except that tweet wasn't about Trump.
And I just said that Trump is not the right person to be doing this, or trying to draw distinctions. He's too imprecise with his language and has a hard time criticizing people who like him.
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On August 16 2017 10:11 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 10:04 Introvert wrote:Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this: + Show Spoiler +which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this. How about you actually make that argument? Lots of conservatives are tried to make the "b-b-b-b-but Antifa/Alt-Left" argument stick. Why don't you actually pony up some real evidence of violence at Charlotesville that was Antifa induced. And then you need to make the critical second part of the argument: that antifa is linked to the broader Left/Dems. We have the video from VICE. We have lots of news reports. Pony up the evidence that Antifa violence was anything comparable to the armed beatings that the racists were handing out in Virginia. Then pony up evidence linking Antifa back to the broader Left/Dems.
This wasn't explicitly about Charlotesville either.
If people calmed down for 3 seconds and just took the time to read.
And we have lots of evidence that antifa is violent, as has been documented.
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On August 16 2017 09:07 TheYango wrote:
Perhaps someone more acquainted with the subject could explain this to me, but it's not really clear to me where the association with Fascism fits into the "White American culture is under attack" narrative of the Alt-Right. Fascism is so distinctly un-American that it'd be hard to spin even the most socialist agenda of the far left as a greater deviation from American values.
By asking the question, you are providing the answer. Fascism is distinct from the Alt Right, and should not be considered a core element of the Alt Right. Now, I certainly am willing to heap a lot of blame on liberals and conservatives for spinning a bullshit narrative that conflates the two. But the reality is that many elements of the Alt Right screwed themselves and the brand by failing to properly distance themselves from the fascist elements of the Alt Right.
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On August 16 2017 10:17 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 10:11 Wulfey_LA wrote:On August 16 2017 10:04 Introvert wrote:Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this: + Show Spoiler +which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this. How about you actually make that argument? Lots of conservatives are tried to make the "b-b-b-b-but Antifa/Alt-Left" argument stick. Why don't you actually pony up some real evidence of violence at Charlotesville that was Antifa induced. And then you need to make the critical second part of the argument: that antifa is linked to the broader Left/Dems. We have the video from VICE. We have lots of news reports. Pony up the evidence that Antifa violence was anything comparable to the armed beatings that the racists were handing out in Virginia. Then pony up evidence linking Antifa back to the broader Left/Dems. This wasn't explicitly about Charlotesville either. If people calmed down for 3 seconds and just took the time to read. And we have lots of evidence that antifa is violent, as has been documented.
So you are going to just stick to your talking points and not bother with evidence? Do you concede you can't show any Antifa violence in Charlotesville? The VICE video is pretty decisive in what it shows: the racist side was there to beat people with sticks and did beat people with sticks.
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On August 16 2017 10:04 Introvert wrote:Actually, I think most of the conservatives in this thread and elsewhere feel like this: + Show Spoiler +which is how politics today works. And Trump is not the right person to deal with this.
Except what's going on is this:
Violent, hateful rhetoric from Unite the Right protesters.
Documented attacks and vile chants and statements from those protesters.
A few scuffles between protesters and counter-protesters.
A Unite the Right protester drives his car into a group of peaceful counter-protesters at high speed killing 1 and injuring 19.
Most people: "Nazis are bad!"
Trump and many on the far right: "Whoa, many sides are at fault for violence here!"
Most people: "wait, what? What about the Neo-nazis and white supremacists?"
Trump and many on the far right: "Stop trying to shut down free speech and the first amendment. The left is oppressive and wrong. A lot of those protesters were good people."
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EPT
