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Canada11350 Posts
@Kwark
Your description seems to assume that culture is a static thing that has definitive borders and that can have very clear ownership on who and who cannot access that culture. The reality is culture is never like that. People move from place to place and pick up different aspects of each others culture, amalgamate, unite and break apart. Take even 'German' culture. What is that really? Is that Prussian dominance over Holstein culture? Prussian dominance over Bavarian culture? It's not altogether clear how ethnogenesis even works.
My own culture originates from a people without a land and an amalgamation of different traditions resulting from moving across lowland Europe into Russia and then into North America over the course of a few centuries. We were never dominant (usually chased out) and yet we always 'culturally appropriated' wherever we went- borscht from the Russians, vareniki/ perogies from the Ukranians, Low German language from the lowlands etc. Who owns culture really and can IP ownership actually halt the natural human course of sharing good ideas, technologies, foods, and traditions. (You can easily have one subset of a group saying, go ahead, take freely. While others of the same group say, no, back off, it's ours alone. Great example is the recent tiffs over yoga. Indians marketed yoga at the beginning, but later people are coming and saying, no it's cultural appropriation, back off. Who do we listen to?)
All I'm saying is IP laws are absolutely the wrong tool to defend against cultural appropriation. You're using a butterfly net to capture the stars.
edit
Well, and Plains horse culture is actually a perfect example of how humans adapt to new things. Horses were introduced by Europeans into North America at a very late stage, and yet quickly became central to Plains culture. That's just what happens throughout the course of human history.
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United States42685 Posts
I wasn't advocating for IP laws specially, I was responding to the outright dismissal of cultural appropriation as a concept. Cultural appropriation hammers the nails into the coffin of a dying cultural identity. My stance is basically "if you see cultural genocide happening, try not to contribute to it". If the dominant culture has already taken basically everything from the suppressed culture and this last thing is a lifeboat then members of the dominant culture shouldn't all try to pile onto it.
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Canada11350 Posts
I am theoretically allowing that cultural appropriation is a thing worth stopping, but saying IP laws are definitely not the way to go.
Having said that, I'm not sure that cultural appropriation is cultural genocide, at least not as I understand either of those terms, though I'm certain people can be found that will argue it is so. I find cultural appropriation to be a particularly slippery and nebulous term that can mean a great many verboten practices. I would see cultural genocide as a policy of assimilation: the deliberate attempt to eradicate a particular people group's culture. It's not so clear to me that borrowing from another's culture leads to an eradication of said culture. Metis culture is entirely founded upon borrowing from both North American and European traditions, and yet indigenous cultures continue to exist and we have somehow lumped Metis in with the indigenous, despite it being as cultural appropriating as one could get.
Depleted numbers of population may lead to the disappearance of culture. The young people buying blue jeans and listening to pop music and voluntarily abandoning the old culture and language may lead to its disappearance. That's regretable but not really a matter of 'genocide' as such.
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Meanwhile in Amerikkka:
Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister.
Source
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United States42685 Posts
On June 19 2017 13:13 Falling wrote:
I am theoretically allowing that cultural appropriation is a thing worth stopping, but saying IP laws are definitely not the way to go.
Having said that, I'm not sure that cultural appropriation is cultural genocide, at least not as I understand either of those terms, though I'm certain people can be found that will argue it is so. I find cultural appropriation to be a particularly slippery and nebulous term that can mean a great many verboten practices. I would see cultural genocide as a policy of assimilation: the deliberate attempt to eradicate a particular people group's culture. It's not so clear to me that borrowing from another's culture leads to an eradication of said culture. Metis culture is entirely founded upon borrowing from both North American and European traditions, and yet indigenous cultures continue to exist and we have somehow lumped Metis in with the indigenous, despite it being as cultural appropriating as one could get.
Depleted numbers of population may lead to the disappearance of culture. The young people buying blue jeans and listening to pop music and voluntarily abandoning the old culture and language may lead to its disappearance. That's regretable but not really a matter of 'genocide' as such.
Out of curiousity, how voluntary do you think the voluntary abandoning of culture is? Because I would argue that in many cases it is simply the continued fallout from previous attempts at genocide with their culture being untenable. If we force a bunch of people to live in the desert and depend on government aid and then require government aid to be obtained in English then we are effectively mandating that they use English, for example.
I'm fine with cultural exchange and cultural appreciation and I understand that cultures merge and blend over time. But due to various historical contexts not all cultures have the same power to preserve their cultural identity and given that cultures are a living thing having a more powerful external culture say "this is mine now" can amount to eradication.
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Canada11350 Posts
There are so many of these; it's so saddening.
The only acceptable scenario I can think is if she was not visible and they entered a room to where she was suddenly within easy closing distance. Otherwise, if there was any reasonable space, did they not ask/ order to drop her weapon? Was any such opportunity given for her to comply? This shouldn't keep happening.
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On June 19 2017 13:33 Falling wrote:
There are so many of these; it's so saddening.
The only acceptable scenario I can think is if she was not visible and they entered a room to where she was suddenly within easy closing distance. Otherwise, if there was any reasonable space, did they not ask/ order to drop her weapon? Was any such opportunity given for her to comply? This shouldn't keep happening.
At minimum, cops are going to have to adopt the mantle of incompetent cowards, prone to panic, if they want to keep pretending this isn't a them problem.
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On June 19 2017 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in Amerikkka: Show nested quote +Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister. Source
Combination of police being too trigger happy in general with probably some unsubstantiated racial "fear". It's far too easy right now to claim you were afraid, and kill someone in front of a fucking child.
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On June 19 2017 13:38 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in Amerikkka: Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister. Source Combination of police being too trigger happy in general with probably some unsubstantiated racial "fear". It's far too easy right now to claim you were afraid, and kill someone in front of a fucking child.
And if you're a (pro-life) conservative, the cops murdered a baby too, according to family.
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Disgusting. There are no words for this. It's like they're not even trying anymore. See a POC and open fire. Don't think, just shoot. This country man.
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Canada11350 Posts
On June 19 2017 13:32 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 13:13 Falling wrote:
I am theoretically allowing that cultural appropriation is a thing worth stopping, but saying IP laws are definitely not the way to go.
Having said that, I'm not sure that cultural appropriation is cultural genocide, at least not as I understand either of those terms, though I'm certain people can be found that will argue it is so. I find cultural appropriation to be a particularly slippery and nebulous term that can mean a great many verboten practices. I would see cultural genocide as a policy of assimilation: the deliberate attempt to eradicate a particular people group's culture. It's not so clear to me that borrowing from another's culture leads to an eradication of said culture. Metis culture is entirely founded upon borrowing from both North American and European traditions, and yet indigenous cultures continue to exist and we have somehow lumped Metis in with the indigenous, despite it being as cultural appropriating as one could get.
Depleted numbers of population may lead to the disappearance of culture. The young people buying blue jeans and listening to pop music and voluntarily abandoning the old culture and language may lead to its disappearance. That's regretable but not really a matter of 'genocide' as such. Out of curiousity, how voluntary do you think the voluntary abandoning of culture is? Because I would argue that in many cases it is simply the continued fallout from previous attempts at genocide with their culture being untenable. If we force a bunch of people to live in the desert and depend on government aid and then require government aid to be obtained in English then we are effectively mandating that they use English, for example. I'm fine with cultural exchange and cultural appreciation and I understand that cultures merge and blend over time. But due to various historical contexts not all cultures have the same power to preserve their cultural identity and given that cultures are a living thing having a more powerful external culture say "this is mine now" can amount to eradication.
I guess you would have to ask the individual people who are abandoning the culture if they are feeling coerced or if they feel they have agency. There's nothing legally preventing one from continuing in the old traditions- unless it's something egregious like cannabilism. Socioeconomics might be a big influence but that's more natural course.
There can be a sort of cohersion that can influence a change- during WWII, my grandma's generation low German speaking got them bullied for being Nazis (not true), but it wasn't that generation who abandoned the language, but my parents generation and it was very voluntary- a stubborn refusal to learn their parent's language once they entered school. And so here I am who knows half a dozen low German words (mostly food) and cannot make a single traditional meal (but I know and value my people's history). However, that's all on me, my family, and my community.
"If we force a bunch of people to live in the desert and depend on government aid and then require government aid to be obtained in English then we are effectively mandating that they use English, for example."
We are mandating they use English for a very particular part of living. There is no such mandate outside of government interaction (if even that- I would guess if a people group decided they would refuse to speak English, our Canadian government at least would obligingly find a translator.) A family that decides to keep the language, can keep their language in today's age. However, for the children to want to learn their parents' language, either the desire must be instilled at home, or independently in the heart of the child, or there must be a critical mass of the population that it makes sense to keep both languages. North America may tend towards mono-lingualism, but that is not true worldwide, and if children voluntarily decide not to learn, it is voluntary.
It is entirely possible to keep one's culture, but I suspect the only true way to do so is through insularity and isolationism (and to some extent freezing culture to a particular time period): the way of the Amish and the Old Order Mennonites. Short of that, any smaller culture cannot help but eventually join into mass culture before paring off into mass culture's various subcultures. Barring persecution, there's always a choice, though without isolationism, integration is likely inevitable. But I wouldn't confuse inevitable integration with 'cultural genocide'. You can freeze the sands of Time and live in the 1800's. Most choose not to.
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On June 19 2017 13:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 13:38 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in Amerikkka: Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister. Source Combination of police being too trigger happy in general with probably some unsubstantiated racial "fear". It's far too easy right now to claim you were afraid, and kill someone in front of a fucking child. And if you're a (pro-life) conservative, the cops murdered a baby too, according to family.
They're probably gonna experience an existential crisis when their love for the 2nd amendment/police intersects with their hatred of dead fetuses. Just a sad story all around, largely because it's not the only one of its kind.
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On June 19 2017 14:02 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 13:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2017 13:38 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in Amerikkka: Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister. Source Combination of police being too trigger happy in general with probably some unsubstantiated racial "fear". It's far too easy right now to claim you were afraid, and kill someone in front of a fucking child. And if you're a (pro-life) conservative, the cops murdered a baby too, according to family. They're probably gonna experience an existential crisis when their love for the 2nd amendment/police intersects with their hatred of dead fetuses. Just a sad story all around, largely because it's not the only one of its kind.
If only folks thought it a more serious problem than they do, saw their lackadaisical attitude toward demanding reform as more problematic than overzealous college kids, etc... perhaps we would start to see some more of at least the most basic and obviously necessary reforms.
But it's still cool/acceptable to be the
but their bad protests are totally worse than my doing basically nothing about the horrific and criminal behavior my government inflicts on them. They should try harder to convince people like me they shouldn't have to endure such hardships and that the constitution and the protections it provides should apply to them too.
As someone who doesn't have to worry about this in my day to day life (and skeptical it's as bad as the people who experience it say), they are going to have to be a lot more polite and wait at least another few decades if they want things to get better. Asking for more is unreasonable to ask of us already very understanding and knowledgeable people who would totally have solved this problem decades ago if oppressed people hadn't stirred up so much problems angrily demanding their rights.
Certainly it can't be the responsibility of white Americans to realize how totally fucked up this all is while busy running everything, and in a nice homage to history, we expect PoC to do all of this work for us too. If they object, then obviously they don't want their rights and stuff bad enough. It's impossible to suggest that 100+ years after hearing the words of folks like Fredrick Douglas,... there's just no way it's white people's fault and grand moral failing that they still haven't resolved this issue, it's obviously the blacks fault.
guy.
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Canada11350 Posts
On June 19 2017 15:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 14:02 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2017 13:38 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in Amerikkka: Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister. Source Combination of police being too trigger happy in general with probably some unsubstantiated racial "fear". It's far too easy right now to claim you were afraid, and kill someone in front of a fucking child. And if you're a (pro-life) conservative, the cops murdered a baby too, according to family. They're probably gonna experience an existential crisis when their love for the 2nd amendment/police intersects with their hatred of dead fetuses. Just a sad story all around, largely because it's not the only one of its kind. If only folks thought it a more serious problem than they do, saw their lackadaisical attitude toward demanding reform as more problematic than overzealous college kids, etc... perhaps we would start to see some more of at least the most basic and obviously necessary reforms.
These things arenèt in opposition. Itès very possible see and discuss both: overzealous college kids targetting the wrong thing while decrying the number of black people shot by police in the US. The reality is I am doing exactly nothing about either of these two things. Ièm not in your country, but I am discussing it. So I would say I am contributing exactly nothing (for good or for ill) to effect change on the ground in the US.
*rgh. I hate my keyboard sometimes. ¨ç¨^èé/
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But you're willing to have the conversation and to listen to both sides. That's what needs to happen here in the US. People need to be open to discussing this issue out and finding common ground. But each generation sees it differently.
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On June 19 2017 15:36 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 15:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2017 14:02 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2017 13:38 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in Amerikkka: Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister. Source Combination of police being too trigger happy in general with probably some unsubstantiated racial "fear". It's far too easy right now to claim you were afraid, and kill someone in front of a fucking child. And if you're a (pro-life) conservative, the cops murdered a baby too, according to family. They're probably gonna experience an existential crisis when their love for the 2nd amendment/police intersects with their hatred of dead fetuses. Just a sad story all around, largely because it's not the only one of its kind. If only folks thought it a more serious problem than they do, saw their lackadaisical attitude toward demanding reform as more problematic than overzealous college kids, etc... perhaps we would start to see some more of at least the most basic and obviously necessary reforms. These things arenèt in opposition. Itès very possible see and discuss both: overzealous college kids targetting the wrong thing while decrying the number of black people shot by police in the US. The reality is I am doing exactly nothing about either of these two things. Ièm not in your country, but I am discussing it. So I would say I am contributing exactly nothing (for good or for ill) to effect change on the ground in the US. *rgh. I hate my keyboard sometimes. ¨ç¨^èé/
Of course "it's possible to discuss both" that has 0 to do with what I said. I mean I'm less disappointed in people in Canada who take positions they hold strongly, while admittedly ignorant of what it is they are actually taking a position on, but I still find it on balance a detraction rather than a net 0.
Perhaps if the ignorance wasn't a result of just firmly holding onto ideas and beliefs without actually doing the research one would typically do to confirm an idea it would be less disappointing, but in general treating like an academic exercise is a bit disgusting imo and disrespectful to the real human beings who have their lives destroyed on a consistent and ongoing basis as a result of people thinking we can afford to be patient.
Think for a moment how you would feel if BLM blocked your highway on the way home, tell me how that make you feel and what you might think about doing to them if they walked in front of your moving car.
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Canada11350 Posts
On June 19 2017 15:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 15:36 Falling wrote:On June 19 2017 15:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2017 14:02 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2017 13:38 NewSunshine wrote:On June 19 2017 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in Amerikkka: Dozens of people attended a vigil Sunday night for a 30-year-old woman fatally shot by Seattle police as department use-of-force investigators probed how officers wound up killing a woman who had called police for help.
Just after 10 a.m. Sunday, Seattle police responded after the woman had called to report an attempted burglary at her Magnuson Park apartment. At some point, police said, she displayed a knife and two officers shot and killed her.
Relatives identified the woman as Charleena Lyles.
Family members said she was several months pregnant and had been struggling with mental-health issues for the past year. They said she was concerned authorities would take her children, one of whom they said has Down syndrome.
Family members arriving about two hours later were distraught and questioned why police had to shoot her. She was “tiny,” they said, and believe her race — she is African American — was a factor.
The SPD has confirmed that both officers were white.
“Why couldn’t they have Tased her? They could have taken her down. I could have taken her down,” said Monika Williams, Lyles’ sister. Source Combination of police being too trigger happy in general with probably some unsubstantiated racial "fear". It's far too easy right now to claim you were afraid, and kill someone in front of a fucking child. And if you're a (pro-life) conservative, the cops murdered a baby too, according to family. They're probably gonna experience an existential crisis when their love for the 2nd amendment/police intersects with their hatred of dead fetuses. Just a sad story all around, largely because it's not the only one of its kind. If only folks thought it a more serious problem than they do, saw their lackadaisical attitude toward demanding reform as more problematic than overzealous college kids, etc... perhaps we would start to see some more of at least the most basic and obviously necessary reforms. These things arenèt in opposition. Itès very possible see and discuss both: overzealous college kids targetting the wrong thing while decrying the number of black people shot by police in the US. The reality is I am doing exactly nothing about either of these two things. Ièm not in your country, but I am discussing it. So I would say I am contributing exactly nothing (for good or for ill) to effect change on the ground in the US. *rgh. I hate my keyboard sometimes. ¨ç¨^èé/ but in general treating like an academic exercise is a bit disgusting imo and disrespectful to the real human beings who have their lives destroyed on a consistent and ongoing basis as a result of people thinking we can afford to be patient.
I really don't know what you are hoping from me that you find what I am doing so disgusting. This is a forum dedicated to a videogame. Hopefully in my real life, I'm making a positive contribution to society one student at a time. But online, I lack efficacy, so instead I'm very interested in figuring out people's perspectives, why they believe what they believe as well as trying to formulate, defend, and question and reformulate what I also believe. I don't know. Maybe that makes my actions disgusting and disrespectful.
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The emotional investment is lost online. So words just come off as cold and heartless. I don't think he/she meant it as a personal attack on you.
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Canada11350 Posts
Oh, I am not insulted. I just do not understand his expectation. This idea has come up quite a few times: that people in this thread do not care enough, or care too much about the wrong things. I am just wondering that given that we are a video game forum, and a hub for all sorts of non-Americans interacting with Americans was there an expectation that this should instead be hub for real life activism or something? I do not know.
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On June 19 2017 16:42 Falling wrote:
Oh, I am not insulted. I just do not understand his expectation. This idea has come up quite a few times: that people in this thread do not care enough, or care too much about the wrong things. I am just wondering that given that we are a video game forum, and a hub for all sorts of non-Americans interacting with Americans was there an expectation that this should instead be hub for real life activism or something? I do not know.
No, just want people to be honest with themselves and the rest of us about what their positions actually are. It get's complicated because often people not from the US respond to posts directed at and referencing the US members of the US politics thread (though they say the same things Americans say sometimes). I don't always bother to check the posters country before responding and that can make things a bit confusing sometimes.
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EPT
