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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
June 09 2017 14:13 GMT
#156401
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 14:16:06
June 09 2017 14:14 GMT
#156402
Calling Comey a liar after he starts his testimony by flatly calling you a liar using your own words and self-contradictions seems like a terrible tack to take, but it's not surprising.

Yet again, Trump takes a line of argument set up like a teeball by the party and completely whiffs by doing his own thing. Let's see if the politosphere can still bail him out of it like they did when his email arguments at the debates were utter nonsense.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 09 2017 14:26 GMT
#156403
Honestly the biggest surprise for me is that people are sticking by Trump as a Republican. He's not a Republican, nor is he a politician, which by now is sufficiently evident. He ran his campaign as a Republican because he had to, owing to the overwhelming rigidity of our 2-party system. But he's not a Republican. Thus, seeing our Republican-filled government, as well as Republican supporters, unconditionally supporting him, even as he sinks further and further, makes no sense to me. They could easily abandon him and maintain partisan solidarity, if that's all they cared about.

Even in this thread you see people blindly supporting Trump because they think the alternative is some horrible Democrat. They think it's better to have "their guy" in office, and are elated that there wasn't some kind of smoking gun evidence presented yesterday, but that was never going to happen, it was just one person's testimony. And the fact that you care more about having Trump retain office, than actually having a credible and respectable leader in charge of our nation, is the most deeply sad fact of all.

Party before nation after all, it appears.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
June 09 2017 14:34 GMT
#156404
The Republicans want a president that will help them pass legislation. To me, it's clear that it isn't going to happen. Congressional Republicans are still holding out hope for a while longer.

Once it becomes clear he is more trouble than he's worth, they too will drop him like a hot potato. And impeach if the situation calls for it.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9643 Posts
June 09 2017 14:42 GMT
#156405
i guess that's still an interesting question. one would imagine Pence would be easier to work with, better for the party, etc..
but i guess the long term optics of impeachment are pretty bad. though i also imagine if they knew it would come to it at some point it would behoove them to just do it now so people can forget.

i guess an optimist can still see him making four years. but i'm not an optimist.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44353 Posts
June 09 2017 14:48 GMT
#156406
They're still looking for a way to ditch Trump but keep the voters he brought into the party.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Kevin_Sorbo
Profile Joined November 2011
Canada3217 Posts
June 09 2017 14:48 GMT
#156407
On June 09 2017 23:34 LegalLord wrote:
The Republicans want a president that will help them pass legislation. To me, it's clear that it isn't going to happen. Congressional Republicans are still holding out hope for a while longer.

Once it becomes clear he is more trouble than he's worth, they too will drop him like a hot potato. And impeach if the situation calls for it.


I dont know how much longer it can last at this rate. Trump is like King Midas except everything he touches turns to shit right now.

All we can hope at this point is that he doesnt cause irreparable damage.

In the beginning this dumpster fire south of the border was kinda funny but the more it goes the scarier it becomes.
The mind is like a parachute, it doesnt work unless its open. - Zappa
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
June 09 2017 14:48 GMT
#156408
The interesting thing is, if Trump doesn't get impeached through this whole ordeal, I expect him to feel extremely empowered and invincible. He will likely do something that gets him impeached from the high of not being impeached.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 14:56:03
June 09 2017 14:53 GMT
#156409
On June 09 2017 23:48 KwarK wrote:
They're still looking for a way to ditch Trump but keep the voters he brought into the party.

I think at this point that ship has sailed. It's easy to say "everyone who voted for Trump knew exactly what they were getting", but that's simply not true. Some are uninformed, some are hopeful for a presidential turn if he wins, and certainly people didn't anticipate he would be embroiled in scandal from nearly day 1. With everything that's gone down, there are a great many voters who regret their choice, and have been alienated to Trump, and his Republican association. I had such hopes for him, especially as I started to see him get closer and closer, because I didn't want to think he'd be such a dumpster fire, but that illusion was destroyed almost immediately.

The sheer incompetency of this administration in terms of doing absolutely anything isn't doing them any favors either.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
jcarlsoniv
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States27922 Posts
June 09 2017 14:53 GMT
#156410
On June 09 2017 23:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Calling Comey a liar after he starts his testimony by flatly calling you a liar using your own words and self-contradictions seems like a terrible tack to take, but it's not surprising.

Yet again, Trump takes a line of argument set up like a teeball by the party and completely whiffs by doing his own thing. Let's see if the politosphere can still bail him out of it like they did when his email arguments at the debates were utter nonsense.


An OMGUS if I ever saw one.

I don't think it's particularly telling by itself though. His constant word-spew is exhausting.
Soniv ||| Soniv#1962 ||| @jcarlsoniv ||| The Big Golem ||| Join the Glorious Evolution. What's your favorite aminal, a bear? ||| Joe "Don't call me Daniel" "Soniv" "Daniel" Carlsberg LXIX ||| Paging Dr. John Shadow
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 09 2017 14:55 GMT
#156411
Fired FBI Director James Comey told senators about a possible third meeting between then-Sen. Jeff Sessions and Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak during the 2016 presidential campaign.

CNN, citing people familiar with the matter, and NBC News, citing an unnamed source familiar with the matter, reported that Comey told senators about the potential of a third meeting in a closed session of the Senate Intelligence Committee Thursday.

After revelations that Sessions met twice with Kislyak without acknowledging it during sworn testimony, Sessions recused himself from matters relating to the Trump campaign and Russian meddling in the election. (Trump reportedly still rages at the decision.)

In a subsequent letter to the Senate Judiciary Committee — to whom he initially said he had not met with any Russians — Sessions listed two meetings with Kislyak.

The third meeting, according to NBC News, may have taken place during a small VIP gathering in the Mayflower Hotel on April 27, 2016, before Trump delivered his first major foreign policy address at the same venue.

Both outlets reported that the Justice Department on Thursday denied the meeting ever took place.

CNN, citing three unnamed sources familiar with the matter, reported that the information originated in intercepted calls between Russians discussing the meeting. The outlet cautioned that Kislyak could have exaggerated the encounter.

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV), who sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, told NBC News: “Jeff could add a lot of light to it as to why he recused himself.” He added: “There’s one meeting we don’t (know about) and people would like to know about it.”

On June 1, CNN first reported that congressional investigators were looking into a potential third meeting between Sessions and Kislyak. A week earlier, the network reported that Sessions left any meetings with the ambassador off of his security clearance application.

A day later, Sen. Al Franken (D-MN), who sits on the Judiciary Committee, and whose question in committee initially led Sessions to make his initial false statement about meetings with Russian officials, noted that he and Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) had asked the FBI about the potential meeting.

“It had been described in a way that he could plausibly say ‘I don’t remember that.’ But what’s coming out today I believe is that that may not be the case. And if this the true, that would be extremely disturbing,” Franken said of the Mayflower gathering.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 15:06:46
June 09 2017 15:00 GMT
#156412
On June 09 2017 23:26 NewSunshine wrote:
Honestly the biggest surprise for me is that people are sticking by Trump as a Republican. He's not a Republican, nor is he a politician, which by now is sufficiently evident. He ran his campaign as a Republican because he had to, owing to the overwhelming rigidity of our 2-party system. But he's not a Republican. Thus, seeing our Republican-filled government, as well as Republican supporters, unconditionally supporting him, even as he sinks further and further, makes no sense to me. They could easily abandon him and maintain partisan solidarity, if that's all they cared about.

Even in this thread you see people blindly supporting Trump because they think the alternative is some horrible Democrat. They think it's better to have "their guy" in office, and are elated that there wasn't some kind of smoking gun evidence presented yesterday, but that was never going to happen, it was just one person's testimony. And the fact that you care more about having Trump retain office, than actually having a credible and respectable leader in charge of our nation, is the most deeply sad fact of all.

Party before nation after all, it appears.

sadly that's true for many people on all sides; it's an effect of various psychosocial processes.
It just so happens that lately it's been hitting republicans more than democrats.
In a few decades it'll probably shift the other way.

it's a not uncommon problem in democracy for these kinds of things to happen.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 09 2017 15:06 GMT
#156413
On June 10 2017 00:00 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2017 23:26 NewSunshine wrote:
Honestly the biggest surprise for me is that people are sticking by Trump as a Republican. He's not a Republican, nor is he a politician, which by now is sufficiently evident. He ran his campaign as a Republican because he had to, owing to the overwhelming rigidity of our 2-party system. But he's not a Republican. Thus, seeing our Republican-filled government, as well as Republican supporters, unconditionally supporting him, even as he sinks further and further, makes no sense to me. They could easily abandon him and maintain partisan solidarity, if that's all they cared about.

Even in this thread you see people blindly supporting Trump because they think the alternative is some horrible Democrat. They think it's better to have "their guy" in office, and are elated that there wasn't some kind of smoking gun evidence presented yesterday, but that was never going to happen, it was just one person's testimony. And the fact that you care more about having Trump retain office, than actually having a credible and respectable leader in charge of our nation, is the most deeply sad fact of all.

Party before nation after all, it appears.

sadly that's true for many people on all sides; it's a side effect of various psychosocial processes.
It just so happens that lately it's been hitting republicans more than democrats.
In a few decades it'll probably shift the other way.

it's a not uncommon problem in democracy for these kinds of things to happen.

I'm just frustrated that we have to stick with Trump, and that there are people who will rally behind him no matter what, as he methodically destroys America's international standing, by either outright insulting allies, betraying their trust, or destroying their confidence in our ability to be a competent world leader. Trump has already done all 3. His wall is just as insipid, it's a waste of money that forever closes off the ability to have good relations with Mexico. Him and his administration have failed to pass any successful or meaningful legislation, any growth we're seeing is still off the back of Obama's presidency. But that'll change fast if this keeps going.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 15:10:04
June 09 2017 15:09 GMT
#156414
On June 10 2017 00:06 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2017 00:00 zlefin wrote:
On June 09 2017 23:26 NewSunshine wrote:
Honestly the biggest surprise for me is that people are sticking by Trump as a Republican. He's not a Republican, nor is he a politician, which by now is sufficiently evident. He ran his campaign as a Republican because he had to, owing to the overwhelming rigidity of our 2-party system. But he's not a Republican. Thus, seeing our Republican-filled government, as well as Republican supporters, unconditionally supporting him, even as he sinks further and further, makes no sense to me. They could easily abandon him and maintain partisan solidarity, if that's all they cared about.

Even in this thread you see people blindly supporting Trump because they think the alternative is some horrible Democrat. They think it's better to have "their guy" in office, and are elated that there wasn't some kind of smoking gun evidence presented yesterday, but that was never going to happen, it was just one person's testimony. And the fact that you care more about having Trump retain office, than actually having a credible and respectable leader in charge of our nation, is the most deeply sad fact of all.

Party before nation after all, it appears.

sadly that's true for many people on all sides; it's a side effect of various psychosocial processes.
It just so happens that lately it's been hitting republicans more than democrats.
In a few decades it'll probably shift the other way.

it's a not uncommon problem in democracy for these kinds of things to happen.

I'm just frustrated that we have to stick with Trump, and that there are people who will rally behind him no matter what, as he methodically destroys America's international standing, by either outright insulting allies, betraying their trust, or destroying their confidence in our ability to be a competent world leader. Trump has already done all 3. His wall is just as insipid, it's a waste of money that forever closes off the ability to have good relations with Mexico. Him and his administration have failed to pass any successful or meaningful legislation, any growth we're seeing is still off the back of Obama's presidency. But that'll change fast if this keeps going.

yes, many of us here are frustrated.
a lot of people are idiots; and democracy has considerable flaws to go with its merits; which is why we need to find a better form of government; also in the meantim efind tweaks that improve the existing one.
there are always people who will rally behind leaders no matter how trash they are, you can find countless examples in history; many people are dumb and/or don't have sufficient knowledge to recognize situations for what they are.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
June 09 2017 15:10 GMT
#156415
That's why I am so disgusted by politics, party before country is a sad reality
Question.?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 15:12:27
June 09 2017 15:11 GMT
#156416
On June 10 2017 00:10 biology]major wrote:
That's why I am so disgusted by politics, party before country is a sad reality

part of the reason some of the founding fathers expressly opposed political parties.
sadly it's not really feasible to prevent political parties from forming.

fortunately there's enough research that we can devise new forms of government soon; though i'd really like to see a lot more funding put into research on government designs.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 15:18:07
June 09 2017 15:17 GMT
#156417
If there was a third Sessions meeting, he's done. And that's very bad for Trump, and I think Trump knows it, or Sessions would already be gone.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 09 2017 15:18 GMT
#156418
On June 10 2017 00:11 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2017 00:10 biology]major wrote:
That's why I am so disgusted by politics, party before country is a sad reality

part of the reason some of the founding fathers expressly opposed political parties.
sadly it's not really feasible to prevent political parties from forming.

fortunately there's enough research that we can devise new forms of government soon; though i'd really like to see a lot more funding put into research on government designs.

They opposed political parties and then formed them in the first four years to get things done. Politicians are governed by their constituency. Until their district starts turning on Trump, most members Republican members are going show support for him. A rare few will break ranks without some sort of pressure.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-09 15:24:46
June 09 2017 15:19 GMT
#156419
On June 09 2017 23:48 KwarK wrote:
They're still looking for a way to ditch Trump but keep the voters he brought into the party.



Yes, I imagine this being a big issue for the republicans. The stuff brought up so far is far from enough to push those people away I think. There needs to be a scandal or event that hurts many of the ordinary people or something very appalling.
All this rusian stuff is a bit to vague,the man in the street probably sees it as the usual political bickering that they hate so much already.

A sharp economic downturn could do the job.
http://www.businessinsider.com/jim-rogers-worst-crash-lifetime-coming-2017-6?international=true&r=US&IR=T
But as much as I appreciate jim rogers as a financial expert,the track record of his predictions (like a complete collapse of the Eurozone) is not that great over the past few years. I do think he is right with his bubble but timing is everything,for all you know it could last for another 4 years as well.

KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44353 Posts
June 09 2017 15:22 GMT
#156420
The crash is so overdue right now that it's about time for the crash after the recovery after the next crash according to some schedules and yet the market just keeps on going up. The thing about predicting crashes is that you're never wrong, you just haven't been proven right yet.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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