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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On March 03 2017 03:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:28 TheYango wrote:On March 03 2017 03:16 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the only question that should concern you at this time: what has Trump actually done (not said) to change Russian/American relations? And yet this "but what has he/she actually done?" argument was apparently insufficient for Republicans when they were attacking Hillary for foreign contributions to the Clinton Foundation during her time as SoS--even when it could never be demonstrated that said contributions ever resulted in any substantive change in policy under her control within the State department. I'm gonna agree with Plansix and LL here. Hillary set the bar for us to get this low, but this is really just the Democrats responding in kind to the years of bullshit they put up with from the Republicans. The FBI was and possibly still is investigating the Clinton Foundation.
I'll eat my shoe if that thing goes any place.
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On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:On March 03 2017 02:33 Danglars wrote:
Skepticism at WaPo. No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it.
This thread is snark central. I routinely get down in it, particularly when it's just trolls doing their shitposting for pages. I'm afraid the Trump phenomenon has increased it with his penchant for lies and exaggerations, prior administrations not fighting back and using mellower terms in general.
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Do I have to wait for a cabinet member to end up in jail or a televised impeachment to say I told you so? Or can I get it out of the way now? The information already produced by amateur internet sleuths is absurdly good in terms of circumstantial evidence. And I spent a lot of time reading and verifying all of it (to the extent possible).The hard info will start trickling out shortly. Calling it now. The worst part is I'm not happy like I thought I'd be. If the worst ends up being true, we are going to have a lot of turmoil, and be the laughingstock of the world. /feelsbadcomrade
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On March 03 2017 03:31 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2017 03:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. xDaunts mind cannot be changed (same for LL). This thread is not so much for discussion and changing people's minds, its to contain the 2 sides yelling at each other to a single thread so it does not spread across TL. KwarK is a moderator. I would hope that he would hold himself to higher standard of discourse instead of actively dragging others down into the muck. None of us can report Xdaunt's worst posts, so it evens out. The two immortals, snarking it out until the end of this thread. You can report Xdaunt's posts, and could do that for a few months now.
I completely missed that. Damn. I sort of enjoyed the dynamic. It less fun now, somehow.
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On March 03 2017 03:32 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. This thread is snark central. I routinely get down in it, particularly when it's just trolls doing their shitposting for pages. I'm afraid the Trump phenomenon has increased it with his penchant for lies and exaggerations, prior administrations not fighting back and using mellower terms in general.
Basically we all hate each other even more than before and even here we're all showing it off.
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On March 03 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. xDaunts mind cannot be changed (same for LL). This thread is not so much for discussion and changing people's minds, its to contain the 2 sides yelling at each other to a single thread so it does not spread across TL. KwarK is a moderator. I would hope that he would hold himself to higher standard of discourse instead of actively dragging others down into the muck. None of us can report Xdaunt's worst posts, so it evens out. The two immortals, snarking it out until the end of this thread.
?
I seem to be able to report any posts of xDaunt's I want. Not that I would. I think he is experiencing a great deal of cognitive dissonance and the next months/year will not be kind to his views on Mr. Trump. I genuinely feel quite sorry for him, because I was sort of in his shoes not that long ago.
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United States44286 Posts
On March 03 2017 03:29 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:26 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. I think we're a long way past using facts to change people's minds. One man's fact is another man's #fakenews. You go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe. Snarkiness doesn't change what happened, but if it makes you like me less and liking me less helps you discredit what I said, and discrediting what I said helps you get to a point where facts become more malleable, then I wouldn't dream of interrupting you in your descent into doublethink. I have no interest in this narrative that Trump voters were somehow compelled to support Trump, despite the immense weight of obvious reasons not to, due to the adversarial ideas from the other side. If someone says that what you're doing is stupid and you choose to do it anyway as a way of getting back at those educated liberal elitists who think they're so smart, well, you're not proving anyone wrong. You get to own your own idiocy. Don't try blaming me or my snarkiness for failing to change your mind. If you want to dismiss the facts then go ahead, but you're not doing it because of me, you're doing it because you're too insecure to accept that learning requires an acceptance that you don't already know it all. Have you read a single post of mine in the last 3 pages? I am pretty much doing the exact opposite of "Dismissing those facts" you and I have been bringing up repeatedly.
The "I voted Trump because I don't like the way those college educated people said I didn't really know enough about foreign policy to be overruling all those experts who said Trump would be a catastrophe" argument has come up an awful lot. Your snarkiness comment was the latest iteration of that argument.
You can go "the way you presented these facts offended me so I'm going to choose to not accept them" as much as you like. That's fine. Go ahead and do it, a good 30% of America already has that shit perfected to an art form. But snarkiness doesn't change the facts. People who are right do not owe people who are wrong an explanation that carefully sidesteps all mention that the two sides aren't equally valid. People who willfully choose to continue to hold false beliefs after being educated otherwise simply out of spite need to take some personal responsibility for that, rather than blaming their betters.
I don't owe people a non snarky view of the facts. I am not obliged to change the minds of people who are wrong. People who deliberately choose to be wrong and then blame their betters for not working harder to be kind while helping them are idiots.
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On March 03 2017 03:28 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:16 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the only question that should concern you at this time: what has Trump actually done (not said) to change Russian/American relations? And yet this "but what has he/she actually done?" argument was apparently insufficient for Republicans when they were attacking Hillary for foreign contributions to the Clinton Foundation during her time as SoS--even when it could never be demonstrated that said contributions ever resulted in any substantive change in policy under her control within the State department. I'm gonna agree with Plansix and LL here. Hillary set the bar for us to get this low, but this is really just the Democrats responding in kind to the years of bullshit they put up with from the Republicans. It's sure to be an entertaining couple months, as it's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics politicians go through to hide their hypocrisy.
With Hillary and the Clinton Foundation, there was tangible stuff that people could point to that looked dubious. Schweitzer wrote a whole book showing payments to the Clinton Foundation occurring at and around the same time that "things" happened for the contributors. We aren't even at that point with Trump yet, and democrats bellowed that there was nothing was to see.
On a side note, did anyone else note that the Clinton Global Initiative shut down earlier this year amid a precipitous drop in foreign donations? SSSSHHHHHOCKING!
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The Russian cloud hovering over the Trump White House engulfed Attorney General Jeff Sessions Thursday following revelations he failed to disclose pre-election meetings with the Kremlin's ambassador to Washington.
Pressure for Sessions to recuse himself from any involvement in an FBI probe into links between the Trump campaign and Moscow is becoming intense, as prominent Republicans break ranks with the administration.
President Donald Trump has not yet commented on Sessions. The White House learned from press reports Wednesday that Sessions had contacts with the Russian ambassador during the campaign, a senior administration official said.
Several Republicans, many of them increasingly uneasy about the implications of the evolving Russian drama, called on Sessions to recuse himself from any involvement in an FBI probe into ties between the Trump campaign and Moscow.
"Attorney General Sessions should recuse himself to ensure public confidence in the Justice Department's investigation," said Sen. Susan Collins, the Maine Republican who introduced Sessions at his confirmation hearing in January.
"I think the attorney general should further clarify his testimony. And I do think he should recuse himself," said Rep. Jason Chaffetz, the Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee.
"Jeff Sessions is a former colleague and a friend, but I think it would be best for him & for the country to recuse himself from the DOJ Russia probe," said Sen. Rob Portman, R-Ohio, in a statement.
"Attorney General Sessions should recuse himself from any investigation into Russia," said Rep. Darrell Issa, R-California, in a statement. "We need a clear-eyed view of what the Russians actually did so that all Americans can have faith in our institutions."
House Speaker Paul Ryan said Sessions should recuse himself if he's part of an ongoing probe.
"If he, himself, is the subject of an investigation, of course he would," Ryan told reporters Thursday. "But if he's not, I don't see any purpose or reason to doing this."
Democrats, sensing new vulnerabilities for the administration in the widening intrigue over alleged Russian interference in last year's presidential race, called on Sessions to resign, saying he lied in his Senate confirmation hearing.
Source
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On March 03 2017 03:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:31 Simberto wrote:On March 03 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2017 03:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. xDaunts mind cannot be changed (same for LL). This thread is not so much for discussion and changing people's minds, its to contain the 2 sides yelling at each other to a single thread so it does not spread across TL. KwarK is a moderator. I would hope that he would hold himself to higher standard of discourse instead of actively dragging others down into the muck. None of us can report Xdaunt's worst posts, so it evens out. The two immortals, snarking it out until the end of this thread. You can report Xdaunt's posts, and could do that for a few months now. I completely missed that. Damn. I sort of enjoyed the dynamic. It less fun now, somehow.
Probably because complaining about being unable to report was more fun than actual reporting of his posts.
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On March 03 2017 03:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:28 TheYango wrote:On March 03 2017 03:16 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the only question that should concern you at this time: what has Trump actually done (not said) to change Russian/American relations? And yet this "but what has he/she actually done?" argument was apparently insufficient for Republicans when they were attacking Hillary for foreign contributions to the Clinton Foundation during her time as SoS--even when it could never be demonstrated that said contributions ever resulted in any substantive change in policy under her control within the State department. I'm gonna agree with Plansix and LL here. Hillary set the bar for us to get this low, but this is really just the Democrats responding in kind to the years of bullshit they put up with from the Republicans. It's sure to be an entertaining couple months, as it's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics politicians go through to hide their hypocrisy. On a side note, did anyone else note that the Clinton Global Initiative shut down earlier this year amid a precipitous drop in foreign donations? SSSSHHHHHOCKING!
I noticed. But who cares about an irrelevant disgrace falling upon slightly less luxurious times?
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On March 03 2017 03:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:29 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:26 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. I think we're a long way past using facts to change people's minds. One man's fact is another man's #fakenews. You go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe. Snarkiness doesn't change what happened, but if it makes you like me less and liking me less helps you discredit what I said, and discrediting what I said helps you get to a point where facts become more malleable, then I wouldn't dream of interrupting you in your descent into doublethink. I have no interest in this narrative that Trump voters were somehow compelled to support Trump, despite the immense weight of obvious reasons not to, due to the adversarial ideas from the other side. If someone says that what you're doing is stupid and you choose to do it anyway as a way of getting back at those educated liberal elitists who think they're so smart, well, you're not proving anyone wrong. You get to own your own idiocy. Don't try blaming me or my snarkiness for failing to change your mind. If you want to dismiss the facts then go ahead, but you're not doing it because of me, you're doing it because you're too insecure to accept that learning requires an acceptance that you don't already know it all. Have you read a single post of mine in the last 3 pages? I am pretty much doing the exact opposite of "Dismissing those facts" you and I have been bringing up repeatedly. The "I voted Trump because I don't like the way those college educated people said I didn't really know enough about foreign policy to be overruling all those experts who said Trump would be a catastrophe" argument has come up an awful lot. Your snarkiness comment was the latest iteration of that argument. You can go "the way you presented these facts offended me so I'm going to choose to not accept them" as much as you like. That's fine. Go ahead and do it, a good 30% of America already has that shit perfected to an art form. But snarkiness doesn't change the facts. People who are right do not owe people who are wrong an explanation that carefully sidesteps all mention that the two sides aren't equally valid. People who willfully choose to continue to hold false beliefs after being educated otherwise simply out of spite need to take some personal responsibility for that, rather than blaming their betters.
Ok maybe I am just really misperceiving the positions I think I've taken vs whatever I've actually taken?
But can some others weigh in on these two questions:
1. What position do you think I have about Russia/Trump stuff?
2. What position do you think Kwark thinks I have?
Thanks!
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On March 03 2017 03:34 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:30 Plansix wrote:On March 03 2017 03:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. xDaunts mind cannot be changed (same for LL). This thread is not so much for discussion and changing people's minds, its to contain the 2 sides yelling at each other to a single thread so it does not spread across TL. KwarK is a moderator. I would hope that he would hold himself to higher standard of discourse instead of actively dragging others down into the muck. None of us can report Xdaunt's worst posts, so it evens out. The two immortals, snarking it out until the end of this thread. ? I seem to be able to report any posts of xDaunt's I want. Not that I would. I think he is experiencing a great deal of cognitive dissonance and the next months/year will not be kind to his views on Mr. Trump. I genuinely feel quite sorry for him, because I was sort of in his shoes not that long ago.
Times changed. His immunity to reports was removed in my time away from TL.
Well some of us have had difference experiences with him. Civility has not been rewarded in the past and very little has changed. In fact, it has gotten worse. People stopped pretending.
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On March 03 2017 03:30 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
The FBI was and possibly still is investigating the Clinton Foundation.
As they rightfully should. I'm not trying to absolve Hillary of anything, only pointing out the obvious hypocrisy when people are quick to jump on insufficiently substantiated claims of impropriety when it's the other side's candidate while being equally quick to defend when it's their own. This includes both Democrats who went out of their way to defend/rationalize Hillary's wrongdoing during the campaign as well as Republicans rushing to defend Trump now.
You've been clear that you are equally critical/skeptical of both, so this does not include you.
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United States44286 Posts
On March 03 2017 03:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:28 TheYango wrote:On March 03 2017 03:16 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the only question that should concern you at this time: what has Trump actually done (not said) to change Russian/American relations? And yet this "but what has he/she actually done?" argument was apparently insufficient for Republicans when they were attacking Hillary for foreign contributions to the Clinton Foundation during her time as SoS--even when it could never be demonstrated that said contributions ever resulted in any substantive change in policy under her control within the State department. I'm gonna agree with Plansix and LL here. Hillary set the bar for us to get this low, but this is really just the Democrats responding in kind to the years of bullshit they put up with from the Republicans. It's sure to be an entertaining couple months, as it's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics politicians go through to hide their hypocrisy. With Hillary and the Clinton Foundation, there was tangible stuff that people could point to that looked dubious. Schweitzer wrote a whole book showing payments to the Clinton Foundation occurring at and around the same time that "things" happened for the contributors. We aren't even at that point with Trump yet, and democrats bellowed that there was nothing was to see. On a side note, did anyone else note that the Clinton Global Initiative shut down earlier this year amid a precipitous drop in foreign donations? SSSSHHHHHOCKING!
Are you somehow unaware that Clinton Cash was a work of fiction?
I know you struggle a lot with fact and fiction, and it's becoming increasingly hard for you as the administration drags on, but an awful lot of central plot elements in that book depend very heavily on time travel. Did that not tip you off?
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On March 03 2017 03:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:22 Gorsameth wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. xDaunts mind cannot be changed (same for LL). This thread is not so much for discussion and changing people's minds, its to contain the 2 sides yelling at each other to a single thread so it does not spread across TL. KwarK is a moderator. I would hope that he would hold himself to higher standard of discourse instead of actively dragging others down into the muck.
He does zero moderation of the thread and participates as a member just like the rest of us. An important distinction.
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I rather have people being honest, and straight up debating/arguing. That's how democracy works, not when you lie, and call out everything as fake if it doesn't match your reality.
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On March 03 2017 03:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:28 TheYango wrote:On March 03 2017 03:16 xDaunt wrote:
Here's the only question that should concern you at this time: what has Trump actually done (not said) to change Russian/American relations? And yet this "but what has he/she actually done?" argument was apparently insufficient for Republicans when they were attacking Hillary for foreign contributions to the Clinton Foundation during her time as SoS--even when it could never be demonstrated that said contributions ever resulted in any substantive change in policy under her control within the State department. I'm gonna agree with Plansix and LL here. Hillary set the bar for us to get this low, but this is really just the Democrats responding in kind to the years of bullshit they put up with from the Republicans. It's sure to be an entertaining couple months, as it's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics politicians go through to hide their hypocrisy. With Hillary and the Clinton Foundation, there was tangible stuff that people could point to that looked dubious. Schweitzer wrote a whole book showing payments to the Clinton Foundation occurring at and around the same time that "things" happened for the contributors. We aren't even at that point with Trump yet, and democrats bellowed that there was nothing was to see. On a side note, did anyone else note that the Clinton Global Initiative shut down earlier this year amid a precipitous drop in foreign donations? SSSSHHHHHOCKING!
Clinton Cash was edifying to say the least. Read the whole thing. CGI shutdown was hilarious. Really highlights Hillary's corruptoin.
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United States44286 Posts
On March 03 2017 03:36 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2017 03:34 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:29 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:26 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:17 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On March 03 2017 03:14 KwarK wrote:On March 03 2017 03:03 xDaunt wrote:No fucking shit they are overplaying their hand. This is #fakenews in action for all of the reasons that I detailed last night. And the insidious effect of it is obvious for all to see. People are reading the first 2-3 paragraphs of that shitty WashPo article and presuming that there's a huge problem without really digging into the rest of the article where the shortcomings of the narrative become brutally apparent. And don't for a moment think that the timing of this article wasn't deliberate. This #fakenews narrative was launched precisely to derail Trump's momentum from his speech on Tuesday. 1) Sessions, part of the Trump election campaign chose to have a private meeting with Russian intelligence. 2) Russian intelligence chose to actively intervene in the US election to favour the Trump campaign. 3) The Trump administration then sacrificed American geopolitical interests to offer concessions to Russia. 4) Sessions stated "I did not have communications with the Russians", a statement which can be demonstrated not to be true by the fact that he held a private meeting with Russian intelligence. Those four are established facts. I know you struggle a lot with facts these days but not all of us are suffering from that particular handicap. I find your snarkiness seriously irritating. If you want to change someone's mind, this is no way to do it. I think we're a long way past using facts to change people's minds. One man's fact is another man's #fakenews. You go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe. Snarkiness doesn't change what happened, but if it makes you like me less and liking me less helps you discredit what I said, and discrediting what I said helps you get to a point where facts become more malleable, then I wouldn't dream of interrupting you in your descent into doublethink. I have no interest in this narrative that Trump voters were somehow compelled to support Trump, despite the immense weight of obvious reasons not to, due to the adversarial ideas from the other side. If someone says that what you're doing is stupid and you choose to do it anyway as a way of getting back at those educated liberal elitists who think they're so smart, well, you're not proving anyone wrong. You get to own your own idiocy. Don't try blaming me or my snarkiness for failing to change your mind. If you want to dismiss the facts then go ahead, but you're not doing it because of me, you're doing it because you're too insecure to accept that learning requires an acceptance that you don't already know it all. Have you read a single post of mine in the last 3 pages? I am pretty much doing the exact opposite of "Dismissing those facts" you and I have been bringing up repeatedly. The "I voted Trump because I don't like the way those college educated people said I didn't really know enough about foreign policy to be overruling all those experts who said Trump would be a catastrophe" argument has come up an awful lot. Your snarkiness comment was the latest iteration of that argument. You can go "the way you presented these facts offended me so I'm going to choose to not accept them" as much as you like. That's fine. Go ahead and do it, a good 30% of America already has that shit perfected to an art form. But snarkiness doesn't change the facts. People who are right do not owe people who are wrong an explanation that carefully sidesteps all mention that the two sides aren't equally valid. People who willfully choose to continue to hold false beliefs after being educated otherwise simply out of spite need to take some personal responsibility for that, rather than blaming their betters. Ok maybe I am just really misperceiving the positions I think I've taken vs whatever I've actually taken? But can some others weigh in on these two questions: 1. What position do you think I have about Russia/Trump stuff? 2. What position do you think Kwark thinks I have? Thanks!
I wasn't responding to your view on Russia or Trump. I was responding to your "snarkiness when presenting the facts won't change minds". It's a very common view for Trump voters that the validity of actual demonstrable facts can be undermined by the manner in which they're presented and therefore if you fail to accept the facts then the blame for that can be firmly placed at the feet of the person who told you the facts, and not on you yourself.
Your position echoed that. You said that it was my responsibility to not be snarky if I wanted to change minds using facts. Fuck that. If the facts of the issue don't change your mind then that's on you.
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