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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
U.S.-based Seagate, the world's biggest maker of hard disk drives, closed its factory in Suzhou near Shanghai last month with the loss of 2,000 jobs, in a move that has rekindled fears that China is becoming increasingly hostile towards foreign firms operating in the country.
A passionate speech presented by Chinese president Xi Jinping at the World Economic Forum meeting in Davos in early January had been hoped to address the issue, and reassure investors that China's remained open to foreign investment.
Xi defended globalization and promised improved market access for foreign companies, a positive sign seen by many that China is still sticking firmly to its opening up policies, first rolled out by late leader Deng Xiaoping in the 1980s.
Yet, Seagate joined a spate of foreign companies to shutter operations in China in recent years, for various reasons, but most have attributed the country's high tax regime, rising labor costs and fierce competition from domestic companies.
Panasonic, for instance, stopped all its manufacturing of televisions in the country in 2015 after 37 years of operating in China.
Source
Dunno how much stock to put in any of this, but what I will say is that it certainly is consistent with the narrative I've heard before that after all these years, China is mostly valued for its low prices rather than anything more than that.
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On February 03 2017 12:29 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 12:11 Aquanim wrote:...
So because xDaunt made a claim entirely without substantiation, and ChristianS made an attempt (which he himself made an honest attempt to signal was not rigorous) to substantiate his counter-claim, ChristianS is the one arguing in bad faith?
Is that the actual argument you are trying to make? ... I'm still waiting for an answer to this, Danglars.
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On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics.
I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either.
A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it.
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Donald Trump will honor a U.S. agreement with Australia to accept refugees housed on islands off that country's coast although he is unhappy about the deal, the White House said on Thursday.
"The deal that was cut by the last administration is something that he's extremely, extremely upset with," White House spokesman Sean Spicer said at a news briefing. "He does not like it."
Spicer said that out of respect for Australia and its prime minister, Trump would allow the process to go forward under conditions set under by the deal that provide for "extreme vetting" of the refugees.
Source
Well, it's a good thing to honor previous agreements anyways.
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On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it.
You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics.
User was warned for this post
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On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics.
I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack.
I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not.
Do have a nice day.
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On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day.
Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do.
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On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do.
Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident".
You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion.
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On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion.
The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place?
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On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion.
Do yourself a favor and Google "democrats and identity politics" just to see how willfully absurd you're being. I'm talking about long division and you're asking me to prove that 2+2=4.
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On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place?
I know a lot about US politics. and I don't consider the claim to be self-evident. it needs substantiation.
your complaint against aquanim is unfounded.
furthermore, as xdaunt is the one making an affirmative claim, the onus is on him to backup his claim with either citations, or general widespread support. he does not have general widespread support, nor does he have citation he has provided.
it's also unjustified to complain he doesn't want to learn when he asks for citations so he can review the matter himself and learn.
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On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place?
I am here to learn about it - I'm asking somebody who holds a particular point of view to justify why he holds that point of view, so that I can examine that justification and decide whether I agree with it or not.
On February 03 2017 14:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. Do yourself a favor and Google "democrats and identity politics" just to see how willfully absurd you're being. I'm talking about long division and you're asking me to prove that 2+2=4.
That wouldn't get me an answer to your actual assertion, being that the Democrats and the Left do significantly more harm to political discourse than the Republicans and the Right.
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On February 03 2017 14:38 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place? I know a lot about US politics. and I don't consider the claim to be self-evident. it needs substantiation. your complaint against aquanim is unfounded. furthermore, as xdaunt is the one making an affirmative claim, the onus is on him to backup his claim with either citations, or general widespread support. he does not have general widespread support, nor does he have citation he has provided. it's also unjustified to complain he doesn't want to learn when he asks for citations so he can review the matter himself and learn.
Its self evident to anyone who cares about us politics that the left uses class warfare and identity politics. Its self evident by the evidence of everything democrats did in the last election cycle and the cycles before that. If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this.
are you going to seriously argue that the democrats in the united states don't use identify politics and division like class warfare in their playbooks?
On February 03 2017 14:39 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place? I am here to learn about it - I'm asking somebody who holds a particular point of view to justify why he holds that point of view, so that I can examine that justification and decide whether I agree with it or not. Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:34 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. Do yourself a favor and Google "democrats and identity politics" just to see how willfully absurd you're being. I'm talking about long division and you're asking me to prove that 2+2=4. That wouldn't get me an answer to your actual assertion, being that the Democrats and the Left do significantly more harm to political discourse than the Republicans and the Right.
If you were here to learn about it then you wouldn't get combative with the first person that responded to. You can't simple discard an opinion based point with a dismissal and expect someone to put the effort into responding to you. You arn't giving them anything to respond to other then "gee I don't think so".
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On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:...
are you going to seriously argue that the democrats in the united states don't use identify politics and division like class warefare in their playbooks?
You have misunderstood xDaunt's assertion and my question. I am not challenging the statement that the Democrats and other individuals who politically lean left have used distasteful methods. I am challenging statements regarding the degree to which they have employed these methods, and particularly how that degree compares to the degree of use of distasteful methods which are used by the Republicans and politically right leaning individuals.
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On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:38 zlefin wrote:On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place? I know a lot about US politics. and I don't consider the claim to be self-evident. it needs substantiation. your complaint against aquanim is unfounded. furthermore, as xdaunt is the one making an affirmative claim, the onus is on him to backup his claim with either citations, or general widespread support. he does not have general widespread support, nor does he have citation he has provided. it's also unjustified to complain he doesn't want to learn when he asks for citations so he can review the matter himself and learn. Its self evident to anyone who cares about us politics that the left uses class warfare and identity politics. Its self evident by the evidence of everything democrats did in the last election cycle and the cycles before that. If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. are you going to seriously argue that the democrats in the united states don't use identify politics and division like class warefare in their playbooks?
ALL politics is identity politics.
class warfare is more a thing in the more marxist and extreme wings. some of the highly progressive dems may use it some.
but the terminology you claim is suspect and quite possibly excessive.
uses to what extent? do all other sides use it just as much, thus making the point of dems using it not so significant herein?
"If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. "
it is in the nature of politics that some scummy politicians argue against things that are obvious and proven because it somehow benefits them to support some fringe belief. if a basic fact is disputed, is it a basic fact? what level of rigor are you applying to that analysis?
most actual facts can be backed up with extensive citations that show something more than a partisan opinion.
there's also a difference between "exists in a playbook" and things like using it to shut down discourse, ruin all political discussion, or using it predominantly, rather than merely using it as one of a great many other plays.
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On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:...
If you were here to learn about it then you wouldn't get combative with the first person that responded to. You can't simple discard an opinion based point with a dismissal and expect someone to put the effort into responding to you. You arn't giving them anything to respond to other then "gee I don't think so".
How is something which is allegedly "self-evident" an opinion based point?
EDIT: Also, what am I supposed to do with a proposition advanced without any evidence that is not one of (a) request evidence or (b) dismiss it?
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United States20255 Posts
On February 03 2017 14:50 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:38 zlefin wrote:On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place? I know a lot about US politics. and I don't consider the claim to be self-evident. it needs substantiation. your complaint against aquanim is unfounded. furthermore, as xdaunt is the one making an affirmative claim, the onus is on him to backup his claim with either citations, or general widespread support. he does not have general widespread support, nor does he have citation he has provided. it's also unjustified to complain he doesn't want to learn when he asks for citations so he can review the matter himself and learn. Its self evident to anyone who cares about us politics that the left uses class warfare and identity politics. Its self evident by the evidence of everything democrats did in the last election cycle and the cycles before that. If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. are you going to seriously argue that the democrats in the united states don't use identify politics and division like class warefare in their playbooks? ALL politics is identity politics. class warfare is more a thing in the more marxist and extreme wings. some of the highly progressive dems may use it some. but the terminology you claim is suspect and quite possibly excessive. uses to what extent? do all other sides use it just as much, thus making the point of dems using it not so significant herein? "If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. " it is in the nature of politics that some scummy politicians argue against things that are obvious and proven because it somehow benefits them to support some fringe belief. if a basic fact is disputed, is it a basic fact? what level of rigor are you applying to that analysis? most actual facts can be backed up with extensive citations that show something more than a partisan opinion. there's also a difference between "exists in a playbook" and things like using it to shut down discourse, ruin all political discussion, or using it predominantly, rather than merely using it as one of a great many other plays.
Invoking class warfare is just the lazy way the right deflects talk of raising taxes on the rich. Its the great magic of the GOP, got a bunch of middle class and low class people to defend low taxes on the super rich (because they abuse the notion of the american dream and "anyone can make it there" narratives).
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On February 03 2017 14:50 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:38 zlefin wrote:On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 13:40 xDaunt wrote:... I don't think anyone can reasonably debate that the Democrat Party's political playbook is largely based upon these tactics and the use of identity politics. I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either. A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place? I know a lot about US politics. and I don't consider the claim to be self-evident. it needs substantiation. your complaint against aquanim is unfounded. furthermore, as xdaunt is the one making an affirmative claim, the onus is on him to backup his claim with either citations, or general widespread support. he does not have general widespread support, nor does he have citation he has provided. it's also unjustified to complain he doesn't want to learn when he asks for citations so he can review the matter himself and learn. Its self evident to anyone who cares about us politics that the left uses class warfare and identity politics. Its self evident by the evidence of everything democrats did in the last election cycle and the cycles before that. If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. are you going to seriously argue that the democrats in the united states don't use identify politics and division like class warefare in their playbooks? ALL politics is identity politics. class warfare is more a thing in the more marxist and extreme wings. some of the highly progressive dems may use it some. but the terminology you claim is suspect and quite possibly excessive. uses to what extent? do all other sides use it just as much, thus making the point of dems using it not so significant herein? "If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. " it is in the nature of politics that some scummy politicians argue against things that are obvious and proven because it somehow benefits them to support some fringe belief. if a basic fact is disputed, is it a basic fact? what level of rigor are you applying to that analysis? most actual facts can be backed up with extensive citations that show something more than a partisan opinion.
This is the most obvious lie anyones ever told. Class warfare is a basic part of democrats campaigns. saying rich people should "pay their fair share" and accuse republicans of killing tens of thousands a year if they repeal Obamacare. passing things like that off to the wings would be like if someone on the right tried to pass off nationalism or voter id laws as something on the wings of the party.
It is in the nature of politics that any decent politician will argue whatever he needs to to advance his position. Its his job and anything less would be being a worse politician. Most actual facts can be backed up with extensive citations. For everything else no one cares enough to do it because it wastes time. If you want to say "hey everyone is shitty lets not talk about people doing things beacuse everyone does some sort of thing" then go ahead, but don't ask surprised when no one finds anything to discuss anymore.
On February 03 2017 14:49 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:...
are you going to seriously argue that the democrats in the united states don't use identify politics and division like class warefare in their playbooks? You have misunderstood xDaunt's assertion and my question. I am not challenging the statement that the Democrats and other individuals who politically lean left have used distasteful methods. I am challenging statements regarding the degree to which they have employed these methods, and particularly how that degree compares to the degree of use of distasteful methods which are used by the Republicans and politically right leaning individuals.
Then your challenge is still pointless because then it becomes a point of view game where people exchange how they feel about things and no one gets anywhere because people are different and they view things differently.
On February 03 2017 14:51 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:...
If you were here to learn about it then you wouldn't get combative with the first person that responded to. You can't simple discard an opinion based point with a dismissal and expect someone to put the effort into responding to you. You arn't giving them anything to respond to other then "gee I don't think so". How is something which is allegedly "self-evident" an opinion based point? EDIT: Also, what am I supposed to do with a proposition advanced without any evidence that is not one of (a) request evidence or (b) dismiss it?
the self in this case would be the democrats and the evident would be the evidence of their tactics that they use for campaigning.
and to your edit what you're suppose to do is continue the conversation by countering their proposition with a point or proposition of your own. Thats how a debate or discussion works. This thread isn't about exchanging facts and reason about things that happen because thats boring and is a waste of time.
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On February 03 2017 14:57 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2017 14:50 zlefin wrote:On February 03 2017 14:45 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:38 zlefin wrote:On February 03 2017 14:34 Sermokala wrote:On February 03 2017 14:24 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:21 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:19 Aquanim wrote:On February 03 2017 14:15 xDaunt wrote:On February 03 2017 14:02 Aquanim wrote:
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I am yet to see you debate the opposing point of view, either.
A statement is not automatically true just because nobody has yet provided a counterargument to it. You sure do talk a lot for an Aussie who apparently knows very little about American politics. I made a request for you to substantiate your statements, and you responded with a purely personal attack. I think that makes it pretty clear to anybody reading this thread which of us has a reasonable position, and which of us does not. Do have a nice day. Sorry, but I don't need to substantiate the self-evident. Go do your own homework on what the Democrats do. Anything which isn't obvious to most of the other USA residents in this thread is by definition not "self-evident". You should either justify your statements about the Democrats and the Left or stop repeating them, if you want a reasonable discussion. The thread is called "US politics". If you don't know much about US politics and don't care to learn anything about it then why are you here in the first place? I know a lot about US politics. and I don't consider the claim to be self-evident. it needs substantiation. your complaint against aquanim is unfounded. furthermore, as xdaunt is the one making an affirmative claim, the onus is on him to backup his claim with either citations, or general widespread support. he does not have general widespread support, nor does he have citation he has provided. it's also unjustified to complain he doesn't want to learn when he asks for citations so he can review the matter himself and learn. Its self evident to anyone who cares about us politics that the left uses class warfare and identity politics. Its self evident by the evidence of everything democrats did in the last election cycle and the cycles before that. If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. are you going to seriously argue that the democrats in the united states don't use identify politics and division like class warefare in their playbooks? ALL politics is identity politics. class warfare is more a thing in the more marxist and extreme wings. some of the highly progressive dems may use it some. but the terminology you claim is suspect and quite possibly excessive. uses to what extent? do all other sides use it just as much, thus making the point of dems using it not so significant herein? "If you can't accept basic facts that are obvious and proven in every part of us politics then you have no place in a thread like this. " it is in the nature of politics that some scummy politicians argue against things that are obvious and proven because it somehow benefits them to support some fringe belief. if a basic fact is disputed, is it a basic fact? what level of rigor are you applying to that analysis? most actual facts can be backed up with extensive citations that show something more than a partisan opinion. there's also a difference between "exists in a playbook" and things like using it to shut down discourse, ruin all political discussion, or using it predominantly, rather than merely using it as one of a great many other plays. Invoking class warfare is just the lazy way the right deflects talk of raising taxes on the rich. Its the great magic of the GOP, got a bunch of middle class and low class people to defend low taxes on the super rich (because they abuse the notion of the american dream and "anyone can make it there" narratives).
I don't think that this is a particularly useful post either. Talking about the "right" as a huge nebulous entity is no more conducive to a productive conversation than talking about the "left".
This sentiment could be expressed as an opinion, but expressing it in this way as an assured fact does nobody here any favours.
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[B]On February 03 2017 15:00 Sermokala wrote:[/B... it becomes a point of view game where people exchange how they feel about things and no one gets anywhere because people are different and they view things differently.
This part is 100% correct - but what is causing our discussion to have this property is that xDaunt, among others, keeps using his point of view as an established fact and building his other statements with his point of view as a prerequisite.
This is exactly what I am trying to avoid.
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EPT
