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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
CIA director Mike Pompeo was “blindsided” by a draft executive order that could open the door for American intelligence agencies to resume waterboarding and other “enhanced interrogation techniques” at newly reopened CIA “black site” prisons overseas, according to a source familiar with conversations he has had about the document. Yahoo | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
To characterize the torture thing as a power struggle suggests some sort of thoughtful maneuvering in lieu of what looks more like poor communication and incompetence. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
yo what the fuck are you even talking about? science of morals? science of the "good"? maybe you should consider more pragmatic matters like the fact that torturers must in some sense presuppose the existence of the objective they are seeking. consider how a torturer knows when to stop, when the limits of the victim's knowledge have been reached. its discussions like this one that reveal how fully science operates as the divine for some of you guys. can we call in the high priests of torture science? | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15664 Posts
On January 26 2017 10:01 IgnE wrote: @tmagpie, fiwi, mohdoo, et al yo what the fuck are you even talking about? science of morals? science of the "good"? maybe you should consider more pragmatic matters like the fact that torturers must in some sense presuppose the existence of the objective they are seeking. consider how a torturer knows when to stop, when the limits of the victim's knowledge have been reached. its discussions like this one that reveal how fully science operates as the divine for some of you guys. can we call in the high priests of torture science? I was taking a very basic approach to only answering the question of "If we know torturing someone guilty will save someone who is innocent, is it ethical?" My understanding is that torture has been shown to be ineffective and can even lead to false intelligence because people make shit up to make it stop. But I have not read enough about it to make an actual judgement, which is why I have been thinking in hypotheticals. If I was to give my ignorant perspective, I would classify it the same as the death penalty. It isn't good enough to warrant the downsides. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 26 2017 10:01 IgnE wrote: @tmagpie, fiwi, mohdoo, et al yo what the fuck are you even talking about? science of morals? science of the "good"? maybe you should consider more pragmatic matters like the fact that torturers must in some sense presuppose the existence of the objective they are seeking. consider how a torturer knows when to stop, when the limits of the victim's knowledge have been reached. its discussions like this one that reveal how fully science operates as the divine for some of you guys. can we call in the high priests of torture science? If you read my post you would see that I said I dislike Torture. I even point out why I think torture does not work along of examples of the things we do everyday to show why some people would believe torture works. All I am saying is that if there was deep scientific research done that showed the contrary to what I think--I would be willing to listen. I do not believe that exists, nor can it exist. That is called being cognizant that the things I currently believe in will not always be true or right; simply that my biases thing that they are. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On January 26 2017 10:06 Thieving Magpie wrote: If you read my post you would see that I said I dislike Torture. I even point out why I think torture does not work along of examples of the things we do everyday to show why some people would believe torture works. All I am saying is that if there was deep scientific research done that showed the contrary to what I think--I would be willing to listen. I do not believe that exists, nor can it exist. That is called being cognizant that the things I currently believe in will not always be true or right; simply that my biases thing that they are. and your biases are showing in the way that you even raise the spectre of some possible scientific demonstration of torture's "effectiveness" | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On January 26 2017 10:24 Nyxisto wrote: how about we stop talking about the effectiveness and just acknowledge that torture is beneath us because we're not the Spanish inquisition? Well, nobody expects the Spanish inquisition :-) | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15664 Posts
On January 26 2017 10:24 Nyxisto wrote: how about we stop talking about the effectiveness and just acknowledge that torture is beneath us because we're not the Spanish inquisition? My point is that patting ourselves in the back for being ethical doesn't mean anything if it causes my loved ones to die. It's an empty satisfaction with no concrete justification. I would gladly torture someone myself if I knew it would save my family's life. Key thing being "if I knew", which my understanding is that I certainly would not. So it's not worth it. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
The US doesn't need to torture people, you're the only fucking superpower on the planet. Also needlessly to say everybody has loved ones but no government can act with that childish emotional attitude in mind. | ||
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FiWiFaKi
Canada9858 Posts
On January 26 2017 10:38 Nyxisto wrote: What kind of place are you living in that you need to torture people to protect your family exactly or feel the need to contemplate this? Are you a drug lord in Venezuela? The US doesn't need to torture people, you're the only fucking superpower on the planet The people that you might consider torturing are enemies of the state, so think drug cartel lord's, members of terrorist organizations, foreign spies, etc. I wouldn't really wouldn't want it used on anyone who isn't a significant danger to society by doing illegal things. At least that's my view of it in principle, if torture is an effective means that is, which again, not really sure. And eh, I think as a percentage of international strength, the US is weakening (it's share of world GDP is going down anyway). | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 26 2017 10:30 IgnE wrote: and your biases are showing in the way that you even raise the spectre of some possible scientific demonstration of torture's "effectiveness" Biases? I don't think torture is a good idea. I also don't think actively fighting scientific consensus is a good idea. If science ever contradicted my feelings--then I would need take another look at why I feel the way I do. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
Torture can´t be given any ground or it will establish itself, its effective in giving the torturers what they want to hear. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Just a day after Donald Trump signed executive orders to revive the Keystone XL and Dakota Access pipeline projects, a pipeline rupture spilled 138,600 gallons of diesel fuel in northern Iowa. Magellan Midstream Partners, an Oklahoma company with more than 10,000 miles of oil and ammonium pipeline, acknowledged that the spill began Wednesday morning in Worth County, Iowa, and said it was “unsure of the cause of the incident at this time”. The oil has pooled in an agricultural field, according to Karen Grimes of the Iowa department of natural resources (DNR), but cleanup efforts are being somewhat impacted by heavy winds and snow. The spill does not appear to threaten any waterways and has not caused any injuries or evacuations, according to the company and the DNR. While the spill in Iowa is “not a major disaster” compared to other spills, said Greenpeace researcher Jesse Coleman, it does draw attention to the risks of pipelines. Proponents of oil pipelines argue that it is a safer method of transporting fuel than trains. More than 7m gallons of oil were spilled in more than 1,000 pipeline leaks between 2010 and 2015, according to an analysis by High Country News. “This really speaks to the central problem, which is that we’re not even surprised that this company spilled something out of a pipeline because it’s inevitable,” Coleman said. “That’s what’s really frightening about these larger pipelines.” “You can never really rehabilitate an area that got soaked in gasoline. Even this spill, it can’t be cleaned up,” Coleman added. “That gives you some idea of what will happen when the Dakota Access pipeline or the Keystone XL pipeline fails. It’s irreversible.” “The problems Magellen has had just show that pipelines spill and they’re not safe,” said Wally Taylor, the legal chair of the Iowa chapter of the Sierra Club, which has joined other Iowa environmental groups in campaigning against the Dakota Access pipeline. The Magellan spill occurred just days after the company reached an $18m settlement with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) over alleged violations of the Clean Water Act. On 19 January, the EPA announced that Magellan had agreed to spend $16m on “injunctive relief” and pay a $2m fine over three pipeline spills in Texas, Nebraska, and Kansas. The injunctive relief includes completing cleanup efforts in Nebraska and improving damage prevention training. Representatives of the EPA either declined to comment or did not respond to queries from the Guardian. On Monday, the Associated Press reported that EPA staff have been barred from speaking to reporters. Source | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 26 2017 11:00 Unentschieden wrote: An "alternate facts" administration has no issue with providing proof that torture works if they want to use it. Also anyone can be finangled into being an acceptable target according to the same "facts". Torture can´t be given any ground or it will establish itself, its effective in giving the torturers what they want to hear. You think they can produce peer reviewed proof published in multiple journals that convinces the scientific community across the world that torture is alright? Sure--I'm certain they can produce that. /sarcasm. | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
The claim was torture is ethical if one knew that it works. and then further says we don't know that it works. I would hope that people are smart enough to figure out that this is an argument against torture. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 26 2017 11:57 Thaniri wrote: Some posters are being obtuse and emotional on this moral discussion on torture. The claim was torture is ethical if one knew that it works. and then further says we don't know that it works. I would hope that people are smart enough to figure out that this is an argument against torture. Considering that torture has been employed as a tool of interrogation for millennia, I think that it is pretty safe to say that torture has some degree of efficacy. Nevermind the reports of various officers saying that torture worked on various Al Qaeda figures. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38753826 | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 26 2017 12:37 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote: President of Mexico just officially stated Mexico is not paying for the wall. Took him long enough. Personally I think he should go full hardball and cut of diplomatic relations with the US until Trump stops insisting that. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38753826 The problem with that tact is that the US has all of the leverage. Mexico is going to have to play ball with Trump, and Trump understands this. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On January 26 2017 12:42 xDaunt wrote: The problem with that tact is that the US has all of the leverage. Mexico is going to have to play ball with Trump, and Trump understands this. not necessarily. mexican politicians will do what gets them elected, and national pride can be a powerful force. Even if it comes at economic cost, it' spossible that the voting choices would heavily favor not cooperating with trump. iirc the ordinary mexican view of trump is sufficiently poor that such a thing is at least possible. also, trump's support in the US isn't that strong, depending on what he wants to do exactly; so mexico could wait for a new president who will be more amenable. though what Karis proposed sounds excessive. | ||
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