EPTI predicted Trump to win back in June. There may not be a person more unlike Trump than me, which is why he scared me so much back then. And that was back when he was pro-two state on Israel-Palestine and pro Obamacare. And why I thought back then he might win. People like people unlike me. And I guess you are one of those people.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 6608
| Forum Index > Closed |
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
|
Euphorbus
92 Posts
I predicted Trump to win back in June. There may not be a person more unlike Trump than me, which is why he scared me so much back then. And that was back when he was pro-two state on Israel-Palestine and pro Obamacare. And why I thought back then he might win. People like people unlike me. And I guess you are one of those people. | ||
|
Euphorbus
92 Posts
On January 21 2017 07:28 zlefin wrote: so, because republicans refused to do one part of government, you want to shut down the ENTIRE government? that's irresponsible. Yes. Irresponsible of the republicans. you want people to go lower? I prefer to make the world a better place. Which is exactly why you go lower. We have a worse place right now thanks to weak democrats. Just disband the democratic party already. It's filled with useless people anyway. not encourage unethical behavior. encouraging ever more unethical behavior leads to a terrible situation. It's that kind of attitude which leads to the problems in the first place, and you have to fix it in ways that let people be better, not encourage people to be worse people. Maybe your moral compass is off. Do you eat meat? | ||
|
ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
That's it folks, first LBGT removed, any mention of Climate Change removed, and now the white house is promoting Melania jewelry line. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
also it will help deescalate this situation to let it rest some. | ||
|
Zambrah
United States7290 Posts
I've never been one for violent/disruptive protests but when nothing else works (and allow me to quote a certain someone) WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE? I'd honestly love to see some serious obstructionism from the Democrats for the next four years, and to see them use the exact same rhetoric Obama was put through. At least one party has shown SOME propensity to actually try compromise, I'd rather that one win with dirty tactics once than have the other win over and over. Do I think they will? No, I don't. Maybe thats a good thing, god knows I could see the Democrats going full Republican and doing the dirty low road bullshit in the same manner as the Republicans and suddenly we're fully submerged in mud. I was always told to take the high road as a kid, as you can imagine that made an impact on me. ;D Oh well, either way I'm moving to Asia. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21650 Posts
On January 21 2017 09:37 Zambrah wrote: If I'm honest I've always hated the "dont sink to their level!" mentality (to a certain extent, at least) because whats stopping them from getting away with it? Taking the high road doesnt seem to be DOING anything, so why take it? I've never been one for violent/disruptive protests but when nothing else works (and allow me to quote a certain someone) WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE? I'd honestly love to see some serious obstructionism from the Democrats for the next four years, and to see them use the exact same rhetoric Obama was put through. At least one party has shown SOME propensity to actually try compromise, I'd rather that one win with dirty tactics once than have the other win over and over. Do I think they will? No, I don't. Maybe thats a good thing, god knows I could see the Democrats going full Republican and doing the dirty low road bullshit in the same manner as the Republicans and suddenly we're fully submerged in mud. I was always told to take the high road as a kid, as you can imagine that made an impact on me. ;D Oh well, either way I'm moving to Asia. The high road isn't working because the country is so partisan that actions no longer matter, only which sides did something. Smarter people then me are wondering how to fix it to no avail. What I do know is that increasing the divide isn't going to be helpful. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On January 21 2017 09:37 Zambrah wrote: If I'm honest I've always hated the "dont sink to their level!" mentality (to a certain extent, at least) because whats stopping them from getting away with it? Taking the high road doesnt seem to be DOING anything, so why take it? I've never been one for violent/disruptive protests but when nothing else works (and allow me to quote a certain someone) WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE? I'd honestly love to see some serious obstructionism from the Democrats for the next four years, and to see them use the exact same rhetoric Obama was put through. At least one party has shown SOME propensity to actually try compromise, I'd rather that one win with dirty tactics once than have the other win over and over. Do I think they will? No, I don't. Maybe thats a good thing, god knows I could see the Democrats going full Republican and doing the dirty low road bullshit in the same manner as the Republicans and suddenly we're fully submerged in mud. I was always told to take the high road as a kid, as you can imagine that made an impact on me. ;D Oh well, either way I'm moving to Asia. just because you take a lower road doesn't mean you have to go so low as to sink to their level. you can aim to be a bit higher than them, but still kinda low. It's also important to carefully judge whether it's a time to sink to their level, and to use it sparingly and judiciously. Otherwise it leads to a tit-for-tat downward spiral which leaves everyone worse off. elections don't have that much to do with behavior or policy anyways. The dems lost the presidency in part cuz they've had it for awhile, it tends to go back and forth. the republicans aren't winning over and over, they're winning sometimes, losing sometimes; also due to the bifurcation of the economy and the parts of it that aren't doing well. nor is it clear that dems using dirtier tricks would actually win more often. there's also systemic pressures that can push things in ways that end up causing other problems, pushing a party in an odd way. What else do you have to lose? one of the errors some who voted for trump made is thinking they didn't have much to lose. They fail to realize how much better off they are than in many other parts of the world, and how much worse things can actually get. a perceptual error that results in an inaccurate perception of reality. The benefits of the high road are often more long-term than short-term; indeed it generally involves short-term sacrifice for long-term gain. sometimes it is doing something, it's just not very apparent that it is, so people get frustrated and push for something more immediate that's actually unsound. edit: another important caveat is to avoid the belief that just cause you did something and it isn't working, that the other choice would've worked better. while we should always consider that possibility, sometimes nothing will work, and all the choices are bad. gors -> there are ways to fix such things; the hard part isn't knowing how to fix it in the sense of what rules, changes, or laws one might do to fix it, the hard part is getting those changes passed into law. also that most people don't have enough knowledge or understanding to be able to tell who's right when multiple people claim they have such a fix, so relying on popular support for it doesn't inherently work, and simply being right is not enough. you have to convince people you're right, and you hvae to convince people who aren't determining rightness via a rigorous logical framework. | ||
|
Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 21 2017 09:51 Gorsameth wrote: The high road isn't working because the country is so partisan that actions no longer matter, only which sides did something. Smarter people then me are wondering how to fix it to no avail. What I do know is that increasing the divide isn't going to be helpful. In SC2 speak "Don't take the low road" is the same as "Fuck that cheesy rusher" All movements need both. The classy one looking the country in the eye, and the sly one stabbing the enemy in the back. Only have class and you'll never get anything done. Only be sly and you'll never be given the power to implement anything. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28648 Posts
It's also very possible to argue that the long term is just a collection of short terms. I honestly don't have much of an opinion on what role democrats should do in terms of obstructing now - do they even have much of an option to do so? That said, when I hear Michelle Obama go when they go low we go high, I don't understand it as a 'please don't filibuster', I understand it as 'just because this other guy is a giant fucking clown unable to string together coherent sentences or go more than 3 hours without needlessly insulting someone doesn't mean we have to do the same thing'. And that I agree with. And also it had been more than 3 hours since last I insulted someone and it actually felt kinda prudent. | ||
|
Zambrah
United States7290 Posts
Believe me, I would love actual decorum and compromise and actual legal-things that my non-legal-educated mind has yet to truly delve into, but is that where we at? Are we even CLOSE to that? Fuck actual work getting done, are we getting ANY closer to a withdrawal from this hyper-partisanship? What do we have to lose from getting dirty here? The faith of the other side in us? What faith, they clearly have none! This seems like an ideal time to band up, reconfigure where the Democrats intend to go, and just stonewall and blame the Republicans on every misstep, perceived or not. I would love it if people would make informed decisions and do the research to have a more informed opinion, but does that seem likely? At a time where everything seems to boil down to a partisan relationship between two factions? Maybe I just have too little faith in the American population, but when I go to work and see people go, "Go Trump!" and I ask them, "Why do you support him?" and they go (and I will quote this fucking man verbatim, his exact words) "He will make America great again!" which he (I shit you not) would simply repeat at all criticism toward the man, he would just go "He will make America great again!" I understand not liking Hillary Clinton, I understand disliking the establishment, I do not understand an actual faith in Donald Trump the man. That notion wigs me out, that his loon isnt just a joke candidate, but a reflection of the actual desires and beliefs of a certain amount of the American populace. If I thought the high road would work, I'd be all for it, but what do you do when the high road just gets drowned in piss and vomit? Might as well walk the lower road. I'm not saying the Democrats have to go full Trumpfuckery, but I think they really need to be as nasty and obstructionist as they can be. Block the Supreme Court nomination, make passing any and all legislature exceedingly difficult, and generally being a huge pain in the ass, pointing at Republicans, and playing the blame game. I'm going to go with an xDaunt-ism here and say that at least it'd feel really, really good to see it happen. I can't claim to be a political expert though, all I can say is that I've talked to people on both sides of this support fence and all I've found is that Americans are commonly fucking stupid. | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28648 Posts
On January 21 2017 03:34 Euphorbus wrote: You can't fire a bunch of 5th generation coal workers and expect them to reenter the job market as big data analysts. Forget the republicans. They are a joke. The democrats failed here big time. And so did all socialists in Europe. All left wing parties moved to the middle, embraced neoliberalism and the economic growth it offered, and were blind to the effect of globalization on their traditional working class voters. Now delusioned, these working class former left wing voters turn to extreme right wing nationalists. Mark Blyth calls it Global Trumpism, but it happened long before Trump. Automation/robotizatioin wave is incoming. That will hit the traditional working class even harder. As a result, they will push protectionism/isolationism/nationalism, and it will be terrible for the economy, while not even offering the working class people anything. I sadly think there is a lot of truth to this analysis. Jobs aren't coming back, what we need as society is to use automation/robotization to enable us all to work shorter days - which could only really happen through either much more worker ownership of production resources (  ) or massive redistribution through vastly increased top tax %. Instead we're getting huge tax breaks for that very group, subsidizing of automated factories (which I could favor if it hinged on a future socialized ownership model) so we can pretend jobs are being brought back. But they're just gonna keep disappearing. Even the occasional 'we must rebuild infrastructure' is gonna employ fewer and fewer people the more time that passes. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
most people in general are stupid. it's just more apparent some times than at other times. the link in my sig has details on the particular types of stupidity found in democratic elections. This might be a good time to sink somewhat, but you can't sink too far or you produce something tha'ts no better. Sometimes people need to learn a lesson, and the only way they'll learn is if they try it and fail. Preventing them from trying it won't work, they need to understand it, and when things are hard to udnerstand, its' very hard to get them to see why it's a problem. they need to try it and suffer the consequences. whether this is one of those times, hard to say. you're also still assuming that alternate methods would've worked. if you don't understand the psychological mechanisms that can lead ot someone believing in trump, i'm sure we could dig up some sources that could explain it to you. addressing structural causes to prevent such things from occurring can be a better way to try to address such things. I wish more would try doing that. | ||
|
Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On January 21 2017 10:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: I sadly think there is a lot of truth to this analysis. Jobs aren't coming back, what we need as society is to use automation/robotization to enable us all to work shorter days - which could only really happen through either much more worker ownership of production resources ( ) or massive redistribution through vastly increased top tax %. Instead we're getting huge tax breaks for that very group, subsidizing of automated factories (which I could favor if it hinged on a future socialized ownership model) so we can pretend jobs are being brought back. But they're just gonna keep disappearing. Even the occasional 'we must rebuild infrastructure' is gonna employ fewer and fewer people the more time that passes.The issue is not how long people work, the question is where people will work. Economics and community growth will be the same as it always has been. Industries will pop up in specific geographies, and people will migrate to those geographies. Those who do not, will starve. Job growth has been massive in the US; but only in the technology sector. That means if you don't know a technology--you need to shift to the industries that service the technology sector. This is what people don't understand. If a town's main source of income has left--there is no reason for the townsfolk to not also leave the area and start from scratch somewhere else. Or send their kids off to work in the cities as they send money to their families back home--immigrants and green card holders do this all the time. The only people "hurt" are those unwilling to adapt to the realities of the world. | ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States44245 Posts
On January 21 2017 08:31 ShoCkeyy wrote: https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/first-lady-melania-trump That's it folks, first LBGT removed, any mention of Climate Change removed, and now the white house is promoting Melania jewelry line. Are those 3 things actually true? I've heard it in passing from a few friends but I haven't had the time to fact-check it yet. | ||
|
RealityIsKing
613 Posts
Especially by their way of namecalling and labeling everybody that proves them wrong into an absurd level which is why people are against fake news these days that the media establishment does these days. It will be especially interesting how this unfolds. At least be civilized. | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28648 Posts
On January 21 2017 10:12 Zambrah wrote: Is this not a perfect time to sink to their level? If Donald fuckin' Trump were to win reelection I find that a ridiculously unsavory thought. The notion that this idiotic orange fruit loop wasn't just elected to be a big FU to some sort of establishment, but that this idiotic orange fruit loop encompasses to some degree that actual values of the United States. This seems like a GREAT time to get down and dirty. Believe me, I would love actual decorum and compromise and actual legal-things that my non-legal-educated mind has yet to truly delve into, but is that where we at? Are we even CLOSE to that? Fuck actual work getting done, are we getting ANY closer to a withdrawal from this hyper-partisanship? What do we have to lose from getting dirty here? The faith of the other side in us? What faith, they clearly have none! This seems like an ideal time to band up, reconfigure where the Democrats intend to go, and just stonewall and blame the Republicans on every misstep, perceived or not. I would love it if people would make informed decisions and do the research to have a more informed opinion, but does that seem likely? At a time where everything seems to boil down to a partisan relationship between two factions? Maybe I just have too little faith in the American population, but when I go to work and see people go, "Go Trump!" and I ask them, "Why do you support him?" and they go (and I will quote this fucking man verbatim, his exact words) "He will make America great again!" which he (I shit you not) would simply repeat at all criticism toward the man, he would just go "He will make America great again!" I understand not liking Hillary Clinton, I understand disliking the establishment, I do not understand an actual faith in Donald Trump the man. That notion wigs me out, that his loon isnt just a joke candidate, but a reflection of the actual desires and beliefs of a certain amount of the American populace. If I thought the high road would work, I'd be all for it, but what do you do when the high road just gets drowned in piss and vomit? Might as well walk the lower road. I'm not saying the Democrats have to go full Trumpfuckery, but I think they really need to be as nasty and obstructionist as they can be. Block the Supreme Court nomination, make passing any and all legislature exceedingly difficult, and generally being a huge pain in the ass, pointing at Republicans, and playing the blame game. I'm going to go with an xDaunt-ism here and say that at least it'd feel really, really good to see it happen. I can't claim to be a political expert though, all I can say is that I've talked to people on both sides of this support fence and all I've found is that Americans are commonly fucking stupid. I mean, I kinda agree. It's basically like, I could deal with the 'we're all in this together, every now and then different factions get to rule and then everyone's reasonably content' line of thinking before. But now that Trump has been elected, the common ground has been removed. If it really is 'us vs them' and uniting is off the table, then winning is suddenly much more important. In a way, it's like, voting for republicans before was like driving slightly drunk once every 4 years. I don't really approve, but it doesn't ruin my opinion of someone. But now that Trump was actually elected, it's like they drove drunk and killed my dog. Then my reasonable voice comes along and says 'but dude, Bush was a pretty fucking huge disaster', and I don't know whether Trump is gonna be worse than that on actual policy, and the world was still a better place in 2015 than it was in 2000. And then there's also the very valid argument that while the whole, centrist republican vs centrist democrat thingy of the past 4 presidents did give my particular brand of sheltered-urban-educated-upper-middle-class-so-privileged-that-I-can-care-about-the-perceived-plights-of-minorities-rather-than-whether-I-have-to-kill-myself-because-I-can-no-longer-provide-for-my-family a sense of incremental societal improvement during the democratic ruling periods, and that I myself was reasonably happy with this, the fact is I also think we need radical change. I just think we need radically different change from what is now being proposed and about to be effectuated. | ||
|
Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
On January 21 2017 10:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Are those 3 things actually true? I've heard it in passing from a few friends but I haven't had the time to fact-check it yet. most of the website got wiped/transferred so well the first two are technically true the vast majority of the site is gone. think all thats up are his priorities http://www.snopes.com/white-house-web-site-trump-changes/ third one apparently mostly true http://www.snopes.com/whitehouse-promoting-melania-trumps-qvc-products/ | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28648 Posts
On January 21 2017 10:28 Thieving Magpie wrote: The issue is not how long people work, the question is where people will work. Economics and community growth will be the same as it always has been. Industries will pop up in specific geographies, and people will migrate to those geographies. Those who do not, will starve. Job growth has been massive in the US; but only in the technology sector. That means if you don't know a technology--you need to shift to the industries that service the technology sector. This is what people don't understand. If a town's main source of income has left--there is no reason for the townsfolk to not also leave the area and start from scratch somewhere else. Or send their kids off to work in the cities as they send money to their families back home--immigrants and green card holders do this all the time. The only people "hurt" are those unwilling to adapt to the realities of the world. I think this is nonsense. I mean, I understand the meaning of your sentences, but what's your political solution here? To go 20 years back in time and convince all those people working in manufacturing that they need to learn how to code so they can get jobs when they get laid off 10 years ago? The reality of the world is that resources are less scarce than before, they're just less evenly distributed and this really hurts the quality of life for people who were getting by reasonably comfortably before but who now genuinely struggle - and sometimes fail - to make ends meet. Like, I actually favor globalism because it has made the west relatively poorer compared to the rest of the world. I'm 100% happy about this. And in the west we've also benefited through goods and services becoming less expensive. But we can't have a development where overall wealth creation stagnates and becomes more top heavy at the same time - that creates the type of discontent that gives us president clownfuck. | ||
|
On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
Oh and there is a blatant typo on that Melania blurb on the White House website. | ||
|
Gorsameth
Netherlands21650 Posts
On January 21 2017 10:48 On_Slaught wrote: Victim number one: style. The new gold curtains in the Oval Office are ugly as sin. I forget who said it but they were right. Trump is like a poor man's version of a rich person. A narcissist requires reaffirmation of his greatness and will surround himself with objects/people that do that. | ||
| ||
