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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Building a wall to stop illegal immigration and removing illegal immigrants from the USA are not racist policies.
The key word here is illegal.
You'll find Israel has a wall to stop third world immigration and has no qualms removing illegals.
See for yourself : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deported
Tesfahannes left Eritrea in 2008, fleeing mandatory military service in a regime that tolerates no dissent, and travelled through Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt before arriving in Israel. He says he was briefly imprisoned before being released into the community.
“The Israeli government said bad things about us Africans,” he says, “and I felt Israelis looked at us suspiciously.” He alleges that he was routinely harassed by Israeli police and eventually decided that he had to leave.
The country recently announced a deal with Rwanda to deport Eritrean and Sudanese migrants there, claiming they would be given visas and allowed to work. In return, Rwanda would receive economic benefits.
But Tesfahannes says the promise of work and security never materialised.
Instead his journey from Israel to the world’s newest nation was a tortuous one. Given $3,500 (£2,200) in cash on departure by Israeli officials, he was flown to Rwanda earlier this year with 10 other Eritreans.
Of course i have mentioned a few times here that left wingers who say Trump is "literally Hitler" don't offer the same words up for Israel although on other issues Israel is far worse than any of Trumps policies.Bulldozing Palestinian homes to put up orchards for one, disgusting stuff.
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On November 05 2016 20:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Building a wall to stop illegal immigration and removing illegal immigrants from the USA are not racist policies. The key word here is illegal. You'll find Israel has a wall to stop third world immigration and has no qualms removing illegals. See for yourself : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deportedShow nested quote +
Tesfahannes left Eritrea in 2008, fleeing mandatory military service in a regime that tolerates no dissent, and travelled through Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt before arriving in Israel. He says he was briefly imprisoned before being released into the community.
“The Israeli government said bad things about us Africans,” he says, “and I felt Israelis looked at us suspiciously.” He alleges that he was routinely harassed by Israeli police and eventually decided that he had to leave.
The country recently announced a deal with Rwanda to deport Eritrean and Sudanese migrants there, claiming they would be given visas and allowed to work. In return, Rwanda would receive economic benefits.
But Tesfahannes says the promise of work and security never materialised.
Instead his journey from Israel to the world’s newest nation was a tortuous one. Given $3,500 (£2,200) in cash on departure by Israeli officials, he was flown to Rwanda earlier this year with 10 other Eritreans.
Of course i have mentioned a few times here that left wingers who say Trump is "literally Hitler" don't offer the same words up for Israel although on other issues Israel is far worse than any of Trumps policies.Bulldozing Palestinian homes to put up orchards for one, disgusting stuff.
Israel is also not seen as a model for human rights. Its actually pretty shit and routinely criticized for it.
But its so very you to drag up an example without looking further into it.
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For those who want to get a closer look at Trump's compulsive lying in the pursuit of self-publicity, I found this to be a very interesting read:
Oedipus Trump: Understanding Donald’s Dark Shadow
It’s June 1, 1982, and a 35-year old Donald Trump is spending much of the afternoon in his palatial Fifth Avenue office trying to convince me that he is worth more money than any other real estate titan in New York. I’m there as Forbes magazine’s lead reporter, interviewing him for our first annual “Rich List” of wealthy Americans. Donald is in all-out promoter mode, arguing that his work, and not his father’s, was responsible for nearly all of the Trump family fortune.
I was only 23 at the time of the interview, but Donald Trump took me seriously. He knew that I was the gatekeeper between his ego and the millions of readers who would soon hear about the new Forbes 400 ranking of the wealthiest Americans.
As we discussed the largest asset in the Trump family portfolio, Donald claimed that the value of the family’s 23,000 apartments in Brooklyn and Queens and Virginia should be calculated, after debt, at $40,000 each. When he saw I wasn’t biting, he revised his assessment to $20,000 each. In an obsessive effort to prove that he, not his father, deserved credit for amassing this real estate portfolio, Trump claimed that “80%” of the apartments had been purchased by him.
All of these claims were clearly false. I knew that the rent-stabilized apartments were worth less than $10,000 each at the time, and that Fred had built them over many years. (When I did extensive research on this claim a few years later, I also learned that there were never more than 10,000 of them, and that the 23,000 number was a deliberate fabrication by Donald).
Source
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On November 05 2016 20:44 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 20:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Building a wall to stop illegal immigration and removing illegal immigrants from the USA are not racist policies. The key word here is illegal. You'll find Israel has a wall to stop third world immigration and has no qualms removing illegals. See for yourself : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deported
Tesfahannes left Eritrea in 2008, fleeing mandatory military service in a regime that tolerates no dissent, and travelled through Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt before arriving in Israel. He says he was briefly imprisoned before being released into the community.
“The Israeli government said bad things about us Africans,” he says, “and I felt Israelis looked at us suspiciously.” He alleges that he was routinely harassed by Israeli police and eventually decided that he had to leave.
The country recently announced a deal with Rwanda to deport Eritrean and Sudanese migrants there, claiming they would be given visas and allowed to work. In return, Rwanda would receive economic benefits.
But Tesfahannes says the promise of work and security never materialised.
Instead his journey from Israel to the world’s newest nation was a tortuous one. Given $3,500 (£2,200) in cash on departure by Israeli officials, he was flown to Rwanda earlier this year with 10 other Eritreans.
Of course i have mentioned a few times here that left wingers who say Trump is "literally Hitler" don't offer the same words up for Israel although on other issues Israel is far worse than any of Trumps policies.Bulldozing Palestinian homes to put up orchards for one, disgusting stuff. Israel is also not seen as a model for human rights. Its actually pretty shit and routinely criticized for it. But its so very you to drag up an example without looking further into it.
If Israel has such a goddamn terrible human rights record why did Obama sign a deal giving them $38 billion in aid over the next decade last year? Besides with all the atrocities the USA has committed in the middle east over the past 25 years they're hardly in a strong human rights position themselves.Now of course we've got Hillarys number one donor, Saudi Arabia, bombing the absolute shit out of Yemen with USA made weapons to the point where there are millions starving in a country with very little freshwater reserves even for Mid East standards.And you can bet your bottom dollar Saudi won't be accepting any of the millions of Yemen refugees they are creating.I don't see Hillary making any of this better if she's elected, She's bought off by the Saudis - everyone knows this.
Keeping a strong border and removing illegal immigrants is pretty minor compared to creating tens of millions of refugees throughout the middle east in my opinion but that is just how i see things.Maybe you've got a different view on the Obama/Clinton middle east legacy.
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On November 05 2016 20:44 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 20:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Building a wall to stop illegal immigration and removing illegal immigrants from the USA are not racist policies. The key word here is illegal. You'll find Israel has a wall to stop third world immigration and has no qualms removing illegals. See for yourself : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deported
Tesfahannes left Eritrea in 2008, fleeing mandatory military service in a regime that tolerates no dissent, and travelled through Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt before arriving in Israel. He says he was briefly imprisoned before being released into the community.
“The Israeli government said bad things about us Africans,” he says, “and I felt Israelis looked at us suspiciously.” He alleges that he was routinely harassed by Israeli police and eventually decided that he had to leave.
The country recently announced a deal with Rwanda to deport Eritrean and Sudanese migrants there, claiming they would be given visas and allowed to work. In return, Rwanda would receive economic benefits.
But Tesfahannes says the promise of work and security never materialised.
Instead his journey from Israel to the world’s newest nation was a tortuous one. Given $3,500 (£2,200) in cash on departure by Israeli officials, he was flown to Rwanda earlier this year with 10 other Eritreans.
Of course i have mentioned a few times here that left wingers who say Trump is "literally Hitler" don't offer the same words up for Israel although on other issues Israel is far worse than any of Trumps policies.Bulldozing Palestinian homes to put up orchards for one, disgusting stuff. Israel is also not seen as a model for human rights. Its actually pretty shit and routinely criticized for it. But its so very you to drag up an example without looking further into it.
We also had an antifascist defense wall in eastern Germany to keep out all of the evil fascist immigrants from entering the glorious GDR. That one worked out amazingly well.
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Wait. So, Trump supporters don't care if he actually works in the best interests of the country? They care about the "statement" his election will make. That's pretty fucking scary, and painfully ignorant. I'm sure Americans would love to be guinea pigs in this poorly thought out experiment. Good thinking! Jesus.
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On November 05 2016 21:01 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Wait. So, Trump supporters don't care if he actually works in the best interests of the country? They care about the "statement" his election will make. That's pretty fucking scary, and painfully ignorant. I'm sure Americans would love to be guinea pigs in this poorly thought out experiment. Good thinking! Jesus.
What do you mean Americans? Climate change is a thing. We're guinea pigs just as much.
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On November 05 2016 21:01 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Wait. So, Trump supporters don't care if he actually works in the best interests of the country? They care about the "statement" his election will make. That's pretty fucking scary, and painfully ignorant. I'm sure Americans would love to be guinea pigs in this poorly thought out experiment. Good thinking! Jesus.
Im not American and i dont give a damn what policies he does for America and if will it work. I care more about the US foreign policies so in those matters, I see Trump as the lesser evil.
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On November 05 2016 20:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 20:44 Gorsameth wrote:On November 05 2016 20:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Building a wall to stop illegal immigration and removing illegal immigrants from the USA are not racist policies. The key word here is illegal. You'll find Israel has a wall to stop third world immigration and has no qualms removing illegals. See for yourself : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deported
Tesfahannes left Eritrea in 2008, fleeing mandatory military service in a regime that tolerates no dissent, and travelled through Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt before arriving in Israel. He says he was briefly imprisoned before being released into the community.
“The Israeli government said bad things about us Africans,” he says, “and I felt Israelis looked at us suspiciously.” He alleges that he was routinely harassed by Israeli police and eventually decided that he had to leave.
The country recently announced a deal with Rwanda to deport Eritrean and Sudanese migrants there, claiming they would be given visas and allowed to work. In return, Rwanda would receive economic benefits.
But Tesfahannes says the promise of work and security never materialised.
Instead his journey from Israel to the world’s newest nation was a tortuous one. Given $3,500 (£2,200) in cash on departure by Israeli officials, he was flown to Rwanda earlier this year with 10 other Eritreans.
Of course i have mentioned a few times here that left wingers who say Trump is "literally Hitler" don't offer the same words up for Israel although on other issues Israel is far worse than any of Trumps policies.Bulldozing Palestinian homes to put up orchards for one, disgusting stuff. Israel is also not seen as a model for human rights. Its actually pretty shit and routinely criticized for it. But its so very you to drag up an example without looking further into it. If Israel has such a goddamn terrible human rights record why did Obama sign a deal giving them $38 billion in aid over the next decade last year?
realpolitik
Besides with all the atrocities the USA has committed in the middle east over the past 25 years they're hardly in a strong human rights position themselves.
probably true but... so? how does that justify further mistakes?
Now of course we've got Hillarys number one donor, Saudi Arabia, bombing the absolute shit out of Yemen with USA made weapons to the point where there are millions starving in a country with very little freshwater reserves even for Mid East standards.And you can bet your bottom dollar Saudi won't be accepting any of the millions of Yemen refugees they are creating.
probably not but again... realpolitik. I doubt the situation in the Middle East becomes better if the US pulls the rug out from under Saudi Arabia, or Israel for that matter.
I don't see Hillary making any of this better if she's elected, She's bought off by the Saudis - everyone knows this.
No. You assume this.
Keeping a strong border and removing illegal immigrants is pretty minor compared to creating tens of millions of refugees throughout the middle east in my opinion but that is just how i see things.
probably, but the cause-and-effect is more complicated than "it happened in the last eight years, therefore it's the sole fault of Obama and Hillary", and one misdeed does not excuse another anyway
Maybe you've got a different view on the Obama/Clinton middle east legacy.
I think the Middle East has been a disaster since at least WW2. Obama's adminstration could probably have made some choices better but it's disingenuous to claim that it is entirely, or even mostly, their fault
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Hilary apologists, take a break. We can just wait for the election now - you guys would argue that black is white, jeez
User was warned for this post
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On November 05 2016 20:59 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 20:44 Gorsameth wrote:On November 05 2016 20:37 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Building a wall to stop illegal immigration and removing illegal immigrants from the USA are not racist policies. The key word here is illegal. You'll find Israel has a wall to stop third world immigration and has no qualms removing illegals. See for yourself : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/06/israel-african-migrants-deported
Tesfahannes left Eritrea in 2008, fleeing mandatory military service in a regime that tolerates no dissent, and travelled through Ethiopia, Sudan and Egypt before arriving in Israel. He says he was briefly imprisoned before being released into the community.
“The Israeli government said bad things about us Africans,” he says, “and I felt Israelis looked at us suspiciously.” He alleges that he was routinely harassed by Israeli police and eventually decided that he had to leave.
The country recently announced a deal with Rwanda to deport Eritrean and Sudanese migrants there, claiming they would be given visas and allowed to work. In return, Rwanda would receive economic benefits.
But Tesfahannes says the promise of work and security never materialised.
Instead his journey from Israel to the world’s newest nation was a tortuous one. Given $3,500 (£2,200) in cash on departure by Israeli officials, he was flown to Rwanda earlier this year with 10 other Eritreans.
Of course i have mentioned a few times here that left wingers who say Trump is "literally Hitler" don't offer the same words up for Israel although on other issues Israel is far worse than any of Trumps policies.Bulldozing Palestinian homes to put up orchards for one, disgusting stuff. Israel is also not seen as a model for human rights. Its actually pretty shit and routinely criticized for it. But its so very you to drag up an example without looking further into it. If Israel has such a goddamn terrible human rights record why did Obama sign a deal giving them $38 billion in aid over the next decade last year? Besides with all the atrocities the USA has committed in the middle east over the past 25 years they're hardly in a strong human rights position themselves.Now of course we've got Hillarys number one donor, Saudi Arabia, bombing the absolute shit out of Yemen with USA made weapons to the point where there are millions starving in a country with very little freshwater reserves even for Mid East standards.And you can bet your bottom dollar Saudi won't be accepting any of the millions of Yemen refugees they are creating.I don't see Hillary making any of this better if she's elected, She's bought off by the Saudis - everyone knows this. Keeping a strong border and removing illegal immigrants is pretty minor compared to creating tens of millions of refugees throughout the middle east in my opinion but that is just how i see things.Maybe you've got a different view on the Obama/Clinton middle east legacy.
Because Israel and the US are allies?
Because there is a large pro-Israel crowd in the US?
Glad to see you didn't spend a single word refuting my claims tho but quickly tried to divert into other topics.
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On November 05 2016 21:13 SoSexy wrote:
Hilary apologists, take a break. We can just wait for the election now - you guys would argue that black is white, jeez
I mentioned Trump gives credibility to racists in thinking their beliefs are acceptable.
Nettles counters by saying the wall is not racist because Israel has a wall
I counter that it means nothing because Israel has a terrible record on human rights.
Nettles counters by saying the Middle East is in a bad place and that Hillary is evil
And now we're Hillary apologists?
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On November 05 2016 21:18 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 21:13 SoSexy wrote:
Hilary apologists, take a break. We can just wait for the election now - you guys would argue that black is white, jeez I mentioned Trump gives credibility to racists in thinking their beliefs are acceptable. Nettles counters by saying the wall is not racist because Israel has a wall I counter that it means nothing because Israel has a terrible record on human rights. Nettles counters by saying the Middle East is in a bad place and that Hillary is evil And now we're Hillary apologists?
You're just two sides of the same coin - he is way too apologetic to trump and you are to hilary. But arguing that Israel is doing a terrible job, by considering the situation it is in, is way too ridicolous.
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On November 05 2016 21:10 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 21:01 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Wait. So, Trump supporters don't care if he actually works in the best interests of the country? They care about the "statement" his election will make. That's pretty fucking scary, and painfully ignorant. I'm sure Americans would love to be guinea pigs in this poorly thought out experiment. Good thinking! Jesus. Im not American and i dont give a damn what policies he does for America and if will it work. I care more about the US foreign policies so in those matters, I see Trump as the lesser evil.
Trump's senior advisor for "security" is James Woolsey. He's one of the biggest neocons out there.
Again, there doesn't seem to be a match between what you want and what is obviously going to happen under Trump.
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Keep in mind that Israel currently has legal school segregation, so using their actions as a benchmark for what's not racist is mighty questionable.
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On November 05 2016 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 21:10 NukeD wrote:On November 05 2016 21:01 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Wait. So, Trump supporters don't care if he actually works in the best interests of the country? They care about the "statement" his election will make. That's pretty fucking scary, and painfully ignorant. I'm sure Americans would love to be guinea pigs in this poorly thought out experiment. Good thinking! Jesus. Im not American and i dont give a damn what policies he does for America and if will it work. I care more about the US foreign policies so in those matters, I see Trump as the lesser evil. Trump's senior advisor for "security" is James Woolsey. He's one of the biggest neocons out there. Again, there doesn't seem to be a match between what you want and what is obviously going to happen under Trump.
Well I've liked Trump's rhetoric about Russia and middleeastern affairs so my hopes are he will proceed to implement his stances if he's elected. With Hillary its absolutelly certain what foreign policy we get from US, with Trump its not, even if his senior advisor is one of the biggest neocons. Personally, I definitelly dont like what US has been doing globally for the past few years and I see Hillary as a continuation of those policies.
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On November 05 2016 21:39 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:On November 05 2016 21:10 NukeD wrote:On November 05 2016 21:01 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Wait. So, Trump supporters don't care if he actually works in the best interests of the country? They care about the "statement" his election will make. That's pretty fucking scary, and painfully ignorant. I'm sure Americans would love to be guinea pigs in this poorly thought out experiment. Good thinking! Jesus. Im not American and i dont give a damn what policies he does for America and if will it work. I care more about the US foreign policies so in those matters, I see Trump as the lesser evil. Trump's senior advisor for "security" is James Woolsey. He's one of the biggest neocons out there. Again, there doesn't seem to be a match between what you want and what is obviously going to happen under Trump. Well I've liked Trump's rhetoric about Russia and middleeastern affairs so my hopes are he will proceed to implement his stances if he's elected. With Hillary its absolutelly certain what foreign policy we get from US, with Trump its not, even if his senior advisor is one of the biggest neocons. Personally, I definitelly dont like what US has been doing globally for the past few years and I see Hillary as a continuation of those policies.
From what you have said so far, what it looks like to me is a will to see change in America, no matter what that change is. I can't consider it a rational position when the change that you are offered is very likely to make the situation worse on the very subjects that you want changed.
Income inequality, if we paint a really broad picture, happens when the right wing of a country goes unchecked for too long. You're advocating vote for an even more right wing candidate.
Foreign policy of the US has been terrible for a long while now. You're going for a Bush-like setup.
Clinton is not a solution, but Clinton creates a climate where we can still fight for a solution, cause her trend will be status quo, not going backwards.
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On November 05 2016 21:10 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 21:01 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Wait. So, Trump supporters don't care if he actually works in the best interests of the country? They care about the "statement" his election will make. That's pretty fucking scary, and painfully ignorant. I'm sure Americans would love to be guinea pigs in this poorly thought out experiment. Good thinking! Jesus. Im not American and i dont give a damn what policies he does for America and if will it work. I care more about the US foreign policies so in those matters, I see Trump as the lesser evil.
I suppose your username is apt then  .
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It's funny how Trump is more popular on the internet with people who aren't Americans than he is here.
Team chaos
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On November 05 2016 19:37 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2016 18:55 ragz_gt wrote:On November 05 2016 18:49 Nebuchad wrote:On November 05 2016 18:45 Tachion wrote:On November 05 2016 16:24 NukeD wrote:On November 05 2016 15:39 Blisse wrote:
So... Anti-establishment. Because people like you think there's something wrong with society and the elites and Hillary is the pinnacle of elites keeping themselves in power while pandering to the commoners. All of that would make sense if like, you thought the world is broken and and you think Hillary doesn't do good things because she wants to do good but as an act to pretend to be good so the common folk will vote for her. I mean my favourite author GRRM says he wouldn't vote Trump, so I think my opinion is validated as well. Yeah we do. Actually only 1 thing. The fact (?) that 1% holds 90% of wealth. If that was a bit more fair distribution, I would be pro establishment. EDIT: From the Zizek video; he nailed exactly why I want Trump to win and why I am prepared to look past his flaws. Plenty of dems feel the same way, I mean that was a gigantic part of bernies appeal, being anti-establishment. Unfortunately, many Bernie supporters don't value this above Trump's many other faults and policies. Bernie felt like a uniter, and trump a divider. Some of us are also able to see how incredibly obvious it is that Trump won't do anything to help with this specific situation... This... like really? Are people really counting on a guy who literally spent a life exploiting economical inequality to do anything different? I guess he could be so bad that he would single-handedly change the course of public momentum.... so there is that. As Zizek said, it doesnt matter what Trump does as president, him getting elected is a big slap to the current political process and the "establishment" will be forced to rethink their position and policies.
Yes, just damage the lives of countless citizens so you can have a "political shake-up".
Never mind the incredible harm he would do to our economy, foreign policy, and social equality. Totally worth it just to give a big middle finger to The Man.
Not to mention that your entire belief rests on the gloriously ignorant belief that Trump will actually change anything and isn't the very embodiment of sleazy corruption himself.
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EPT
