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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6260 Posts
October 29 2016 10:27 GMT
#116201
On October 29 2016 14:38 Blisse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2016 13:32 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Trump's tax plan also adds another $10 trillion to the debt. How do you respond to that? He even revised that one to a new one now costing somewhere between $2-6 trillion. Is your argument only that everyone's analysis is wrong like with Brexit?

I just really want to know how are you convinced that Trump will do a better job than Clinton at fixing the problems in this country? Are you of the opinion that anyone could do a better job than Obama and Hillary?

I've only ever stated that i think Trump will win, not that he will be a great president.
Nobody can turn around the turd that is the US economy and debt situation.Collapse of the US dollar is inevitable at this point whoever is in charge.There is no way to pay off the US debt without hyperinflating the currency to oblivion.

The good thing about Trump is at least he recognises that there is a serious issue with the debt, jobs going overseas and can openly state what a failure globalism has been along with the disastrous middle eastern wars.Sticking your head in the sand won't help, it's time to face the music.

The issue with Hillary is if she gets into office they cannot blame the economic problems on Bush anymore so they will need a diversion, something else to blame.World War 3 is a very real possibility with Clinton in charge, Stein has mentioned this as have many others.With regard to a far lower chance of WW3 with Russia and exposing the failure and corruption of the old system Trump is better than Clinton.


Okay so point by point.

You say there's an issue with the debt, but his plan is to increase the debt? Like sure the debt is large, but what's the problem with it where that acknowledge it and increasing it makes things better? And every country is in debt, debt itself means nothing, it depends on how it's used.

I agree with jobs going overseas, but how does cutting taxes on the rich help? That's what Trump wants to do. How does cutting taxes on corporations help? All of our research says cutting taxes doesn't help because it literally takes money away from the government and now needs to be taken from elsewhere, essentially stressing the middle and low class. Do you disagree with the research? Do you trust Trump's instincts? Even though he has so many failed businesses?

How has globalism been a failure? Like specifically how? What are the specific instances you're talking about? Globalism means all sorts of things. Are you not a fan of out-sourcing? Has your job become redundant? Do you feel like your low-middle class hasn't enjoyed any financial security improvements because of "globalism"? Why do you think going backwards on globalism is the solution as opposed to better policies? Why focus on this magical word instead of digging in on what you feel is hindering you or others?

In what way has the current response to the Middle East been disastrous? The US invaded the Middle East. The US pressured the government to leave the Middle East. Leaving the Middle East was not done well because it's a complex situation and now we had problems like Aleppo and ISIS. I think Aleppo was disastrous but I also believe the entire situation is probably difficult as shit and everyone would've made mistakes doing something similar. Trump says stuff like Aleppo wouldn't have happened or that veteran's child wouldn't have died if he was in charge - don't you think that's simplifying the situation just a tad? Does Trump given you the impression that he's meticulous about all these things? How does Trump given you a better impression than Hillary other than Hillary has a history because she actually tried? The US said fuck, the Bush approach was shit, let's try a more hands-off approach to ISIS that hopefully allows the regional entities to restore and retain power. It's going slowly because they're hands-off, and we know what happens when we were hands-on (re: 2003). So how does Trump's vision of "the element of surprise" and "carpet bombing" the entire Middle East do anything to help the situation? Sure, Trump has a better relationship with Putin. So you agree with what would end up happening if the US weren't involved? With stuff like that Assad knowingly used poison gas on civilians? Where do you draw the line where currently the rebels the US supports "accidentally" bombs civilians as well? Because if you end your support, you essentially put Assad in power and destroy your relationships with the Middle East. It's a fucking complex situation, everyone knows that, waving your arms saying "it's a disaster" doesn't help at all.

Has Hillary blamed the economic problems on Bush? Who have they been blaming? Do you have a source? Hasn't everyone agreed that the markets aligned in a dramatic way and that banks were involved? Do you not like that banks seem to have a hand in Hillary's pockets so she isn't going to punish them? Do you believe that Trump doesn't about the bank's feelings and that he has proposals that would do something? Do you think that breaking up the big banks is the correct idea? Do you have any clue where that would even go? Are you just supporting this because you want to stick it up to the banks?

I'm not so sure that you can for sure say the risk of WW3 is higher with Clinton, given how trigger happy and temperamental Trump is about nuclear weapons. I think it is higher with Clinton, but I don't think you can just say "yes it's definitely higher" given his temperament.

Do you think that Jill Stein adds legitimacy to an opinion, given that she can't seem to explain any of her ideas in depth and shit like she's hesitant about whether vaccines cause autism or that 9/11 was an inside job?

Where do you see corruption in the old system? What's corrupt about it? Even though everything we've discussed here about the email case says that Clinton shouldn't be prosecuted, do you still doubt that decision? Do you just not like how large the Clinton's sphere of influence is and how their donors are so large and random and look so shady (Saudia Arabia, banks, etc)?

Do you just think that Clinton is the embodiment of everything you don't like about politics and that's the most valuable quality that you're judging the president by?

Like I don't mind if that's the reason you prefer Trump. I get it, I felt the same way about Harper. But in my opinion all of your other reasons just don't hold enough water, so saying them over and over again like they're the truth makes no sense. I just want you to ask yourself these questions and see if you have any reasoned response, because I think these are all reasonable questions and when Trump supporters just say "you're lying" without any proof it removes the element discussion. But in my opinion discussion is how you should shape your ideas, versus something like blind faith or ignorance.

Please point me to all the research which says cutting taxes doesn't help and more specifically corporate taxes.
Probe1
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States17920 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 11:08:04
October 29 2016 11:07 GMT
#116202
On October 29 2016 19:03 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Liberal Michael Moore explains why you shouldn't vote for Hillary
+ Show Spoiler +

Michael Moore is an entertainer. Not a liberal. Or someone who has done anything notable for the last 14 years.
우정호 KT_VIOLET 1988 - 2012 While we are postponing, life speeds by
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7922 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 11:29:03
October 29 2016 11:27 GMT
#116203
On October 29 2016 18:57 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2016 13:24 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Theres a video out of people hassling a homeless woman in Hollywood who was trying to protect Trumps star from further defacement.

Very disturbing video.


Sad video. The lumpen proletariat everywhere.

Show nested quote +
On October 29 2016 18:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 29 2016 17:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
Damn HRC's surrogates turned on the FBI quick. One out there wondering if maybe Russia is involved with these new emails.


GH you are a bit predictable.

Surprise us sometimes.

Support Trump on one idea or one comment he made and I will support you in your attempt to change GH.

Challenge accepted, my friend.

I think Trump has a point in his opposition to international trade agreements and unrestricted international free trade in general. And I think he is right saying the Democrats have failed on that matter and will probably continue to do so.

That being said i'm not sure him and i agree for the same reasons. Trade agreements used to be about tackling protectionism but they have turned into a war machine to protect big businesses. I don't know where Trump's position comes from, it's hard to tell with him.

Ok anyhow. I win, don't I? Can i make fun of GH crooked Hillary obsession again?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4363 Posts
October 29 2016 12:03 GMT
#116204
CNN : Biden not a big fan of Weiner

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/28/politics/joe-biden-anthony-weiner-emails-hillary-clinton/index.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 13:20:51
October 29 2016 12:05 GMT
#116205
On October 29 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That being said i'm not sure him and i agree for the same reasons. Trade agreements used to be about tackling protectionism but they have turned into a war machine to protect big businesses. I don't know where Trump's position comes from, it's hard to tell with him.


Either he paid ("donated to") lawmakers to adjust the trade deals in his favour and didn't end up making enough money off of it (ie. he "donated" more money than he could make from the trade deal), or there was a personal slight against him in the wording of one of the agreements. I suppose it could also be that someone did some research for him and determined that sufficient people disagreed with the trade deals and when he mentioned it at one of his rallies, he got sufficient cheers from it for him to continue talking about the issue. The man is not exactly an enigma in terms of motivation.
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
October 29 2016 12:10 GMT
#116206
On October 29 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2016 18:57 WhiteDog wrote:
On October 29 2016 13:24 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Theres a video out of people hassling a homeless woman in Hollywood who was trying to protect Trumps star from further defacement.

Very disturbing video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njN75nJdCAk&feature=player_embedded

Sad video. The lumpen proletariat everywhere.

On October 29 2016 18:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 29 2016 17:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
Damn HRC's surrogates turned on the FBI quick. One out there wondering if maybe Russia is involved with these new emails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNX3k5tc_8w&feature=youtu.be&t=2m

GH you are a bit predictable.

Surprise us sometimes.

Support Trump on one idea or one comment he made and I will support you in your attempt to change GH.

Challenge accepted, my friend.

I think Trump has a point in his opposition to international trade agreements and unrestricted international free trade in general. And I think he is right saying the Democrats have failed on that matter and will probably continue to do so.

That being said i'm not sure him and i agree for the same reasons. Trade agreements used to be about tackling protectionism but they have turned into a war machine to protect big businesses. I don't know where Trump's position comes from, it's hard to tell with him.

Ok anyhow. I win, don't I? Can i make fun of GH crooked Hillary obsession again?

You won.
"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
ImFromPortugal
Profile Joined April 2010
Portugal1368 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 13:49:58
October 29 2016 13:20 GMT
#116207
On October 29 2016 05:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2016 05:28 ImFromPortugal wrote:
FBI probes newly discovered emails tied to Clinton case


http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/28/politics/fbi-reviewing-new-emails-in-clinton-probe-director-tells-senate-judiciary-committee/index.html

Yes, thank you for clarifying that you don't read this thread, only post things.



Don't have time to read the many pages that are posted here everyday i spend more time reading about Syria and other more relevant issues but thank you for your input.



In what way has the current response to the Middle East been disastrous? The US invaded the Middle East. The US pressured the government to leave the Middle East. Leaving the Middle East was not done well because it's a complex situation and now we had problems like Aleppo and ISIS. I think Aleppo was disastrous but I also believe the entire situation is probably difficult as shit and everyone would've made mistakes doing something similar. Trump says stuff like Aleppo wouldn't have happened or that veteran's child wouldn't have died if he was in charge - don't you think that's simplifying the situation just a tad? Does Trump given you the impression that he's meticulous about all these things? How does Trump given you a better impression than Hillary other than Hillary has a history because she actually tried? The US said fuck, the Bush approach was shit, let's try a more hands-off approach to ISIS that hopefully allows the regional entities to restore and retain power. It's going slowly because they're hands-off, and we know what happens when we were hands-on (re: 2003). So how does Trump's vision of "the element of surprise" and "carpet bombing" the entire Middle East do anything to help the situation? Sure, Trump has a better relationship with Putin. So you agree with what would end up happening if the US weren't involved? With stuff like that Assad knowingly used poison gas on civilians? Where do you draw the line where currently the rebels the US supports "accidentally" bombs civilians as well? Because if you end your support, you essentially put Assad in power and destroy your relationships with the Middle East. It's a fucking complex situation, everyone knows that, waving your arms saying "it's a disaster" doesn't help at all.


She wants to arm the extremists in Aleppo i don't think that is a good idea, arming Alqaeda but it seems like you americans didn't learn your lesson yet.


Michael Moore is an entertainer. Not a liberal. Or someone who has done anything notable for the last 14 years.


Like this is relevant, only notable people will vote in the US elections ofc
Yes im
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7922 Posts
October 29 2016 14:12 GMT
#116208
On October 29 2016 21:10 WhiteDog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 29 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 29 2016 18:57 WhiteDog wrote:
On October 29 2016 13:24 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Theres a video out of people hassling a homeless woman in Hollywood who was trying to protect Trumps star from further defacement.

Very disturbing video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njN75nJdCAk&feature=player_embedded

Sad video. The lumpen proletariat everywhere.

On October 29 2016 18:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 29 2016 17:16 GreenHorizons wrote:
Damn HRC's surrogates turned on the FBI quick. One out there wondering if maybe Russia is involved with these new emails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNX3k5tc_8w&feature=youtu.be&t=2m

GH you are a bit predictable.

Surprise us sometimes.

Support Trump on one idea or one comment he made and I will support you in your attempt to change GH.

Challenge accepted, my friend.

I think Trump has a point in his opposition to international trade agreements and unrestricted international free trade in general. And I think he is right saying the Democrats have failed on that matter and will probably continue to do so.

That being said i'm not sure him and i agree for the same reasons. Trade agreements used to be about tackling protectionism but they have turned into a war machine to protect big businesses. I don't know where Trump's position comes from, it's hard to tell with him.

Ok anyhow. I win, don't I? Can i make fun of GH crooked Hillary obsession again?

You won.

Thou were a noble foe
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 14:22:30
October 29 2016 14:19 GMT
#116209
I think it's interesting that conservatives, including Trump, have such an unearthly fascination with quoting bad things people that have publicly declared that Clinton is better than Trump have said about Clinton. Sanders, Powell, now Michael Moore.

It's this bizarre "appeal to authority, but only on this specific quote and thing, ignoring everything else they say even though I'm saying you should believe them" logic.

Moore just released a documentary about how he now supports Clinton, for Christ's sake.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
October 29 2016 14:51 GMT
#116210
On October 29 2016 20:27 Biff The Understudy wrote:
That being said i'm not sure him and i agree for the same reasons.

That pretty much summarizes the points on which I do agree with Trump's policy proposals. Which makes him an interesting political development but also a loose cannon on the implementation side.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4363 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 14:55:52
October 29 2016 14:54 GMT
#116211
Trump moves within two points now on ABC/Washpost poll from 12 points five days prior.ABC gives the reason as reduced turnout expectation amongst democrats, higher expectated turnout amongst republicans.Also a substantial shift in independents toward Trump.

Note this poll was obviously taken prior to the most recent Clinton scandal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/shift-electorates-makeup-tightens-presidential-contest-poll/story?id=43142198
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
October 29 2016 15:19 GMT
#116212
On October 28 2016 08:37 KwarK wrote:
Bio, among my people I am a conservative. If your Republicans would get their shit together and stop denying climate change, repressing LGBTs and pushing Jesus on everyone I'd join you. Although I still think healthcare joins essentials like education, justice, defence and similar services which ought to be provided by the state through taxation (albeit not with a monopoly, private health insurance can continue just as it does in the UK for those that want it). You can even keep your guns.

I lean right. I just don't lean Trump.


I align with those views quite a lot
maru lover forever
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
October 29 2016 15:46 GMT
#116213
Two Hilarious outcomes from this FBI news, if HRC loses and then Comey comes out a week later saying nothing pertinent in emails was found, or if HRC wins and then FBI finds some sort of damning evidence leading to impeachment. Or it could be really boring and HRC ends up winning and Comey finds nothing. Knowing this election, I don't think the result is going to disappoint.
Question.?
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7922 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 16:20:49
October 29 2016 16:14 GMT
#116214
On October 29 2016 23:54 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Trump moves within two points now on ABC/Washpost poll from 12 points five days prior.ABC gives the reason as reduced turnout expectation amongst democrats, higher expectated turnout amongst republicans.Also a substantial shift in independents toward Trump.

Note this poll was obviously taken prior to the most recent Clinton scandal.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/shift-electorates-makeup-tightens-presidential-contest-poll/story?id=43142198

Why do you call a scandal something about which we know absolutely nothing?
I mean, don't you need any specific before considering that something is scandalous?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14049 Posts
October 29 2016 16:41 GMT
#116215
I mean I can understand a lot of that post of being anti hillary but the ww3 and national debt parts just lose me theres no reason to care about the national debt unless it gets halariously out of control with the petrodollar keeping intrest rates down indefinitly.

And how on earth do people belive hillary will start WW3. and with who? the Soveit union can't fill the fulga gap with bodies and MAD is still on the table. If WW3 didn't happen pre nixon its not going to happen now. There is no benifical situation for Russia to go to war and china is playing the long game on us.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-29 16:54:56
October 29 2016 16:48 GMT
#116216
It's not going to be Russia that suddenly decides to declare war on the US directly. Neither will China. Nor would it be the other way around. There's just so many conflicts and tensions rising across the world and things might just snowball out of control like they did during the 20th century.

I think war is always only a few years away unless we're actively working to avoid it, and there's been signs of slacking off recently. (Also: playing this speech+ Show Spoiler +
"Flashpoints: The Emerging Crisis in Europe"
of George Friedman in the background isn't helping)
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45106 Posts
October 29 2016 16:51 GMT
#116217
We already knew that Trump was using donations from his for-profit Trump Foundation to pay himself and buy frivolous things instead of giving money to charity, but now we finally know why Trump has been running for president: To not just promote his own brand of everything (which is ironic considering his brand has been tanking because of his campaign) but to use millions of dollars in campaign contributions to pay himself and his family. He keeps tricking supporters into giving him money, and then pockets it and walks off.



http://latest.com/2016/10/new-filings-show-trump-used-donors-money-to-pay-his-own-hotels-massive-sums-of-cash/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=ta&utm_campaign=iwvo12
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5773 Posts
October 29 2016 17:04 GMT
#116218
The loans he forgave for his primary campaign far outweigh the money he spends using his own companies for things, and anyway the only expense that isn't peanuts is still his airplane. Not because it's being laundered, but because airliners are expensive to run and he's been using his for the entire campaign.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5296 Posts
October 29 2016 17:06 GMT
#116219
i believed(before it was meta) and still believe that Clinton will start ww3:
personal reasons:
-she is a woman, she wants to prove that women (can and will) make America great again and what better way to illustrate that than beating men at their own game: war.
-she is a woman, a cheated woman nonetheless, while she was the first lady; that leaves scars => a need to prove herself, to prove she is better than <...>.
-she is the product of her chosen environment, she can no longer relate to her subjects/them regular folk so she hates them with passion.
other reasons:
-during Obama's term in meetings on security/Middle East issues, Clinton was the warmonger, time and time again pushing for military intervention in Middle East.
-she is the establishment and it, wants the Middle East since '49.

if Russia loses Middle East it is done for.
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43296 Posts
October 29 2016 17:12 GMT
#116220
On October 30 2016 02:06 xM(Z wrote:
i believed(before it was meta) and still believe that Clinton will start ww3:
personal reasons:
-she is a woman, she wants to prove that women (can and will) make America great again and what better way to illustrate that than beating men at their own game: war.
-she is a woman, a cheated woman nonetheless, while she was the first lady; that leaves scars => a need to prove herself, to prove she is better than <...>.
-she is the product of her chosen environment, she can no longer relate to her subjects/them regular folk so she hates them with passion.
other reasons:
-during Obama's term in meetings on security/Middle East issues, Clinton was the warmonger, time and time again pushing for military intervention in Middle East.
-she is the establishment and it, wants the Middle East since '49.

if Russia loses Middle East it is done for.

Out of curiousity what will need to happen to make you admit that you were wrong? If 2024 rolls around and we still haven't had WW3 would you concede? Also how does the Iran deal (a stable peace that removes the core conflict between Iran and the US) feature in this?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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