|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 01 2016 07:25 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 07:14 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:11 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:01 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 06:47 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 06:40 oBlade wrote:"Who pays for the wall? We didn't discuss," Trump said when asked by a reporter during a news conference following their meeting in Mexico City. "We did discuss the wall. We didn't discuss payment of the wall. That'll be for a later date." How does this become a "flip flop" and "total Trump capitulation." And how would a "flip flop" even be negative if you don't like the wall? 1) Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall (see campaign memo). Given the chance, he didn't bring it up (or any of the acts laid out in the campaign memo). Position abandoned. He will try to half walk this back today and tomorrow, but it won't work, just like his mass deportation walk back. 2) I can hold the following two positions and remain consistent: A - Trump's wall is foolishness and his plan to make Mexico pay for it is both a lie and foolish B - Trump is a deeply inconsistent flip-flopper who flips positions on a minute by minute basis to appease whoever he is talking to at that moment (see him not bringing up wall) How did you dismiss the idea that they just didn't talk about it like he said? It's their first ever meeting, he's still a candidate, they probably talked about many things. I doubt your post would be any less negative if he had come out and said he gave them the ultimatum. The "memo" is not some kind of secret that you revealed him abandoning, it's his publicly advertised position, all the info is on his campaign page. Perhaps a (EDIT: 6-second) video presentation would make this more clear. Man Speaks Differently To Enthusiastic Rally Than To Press At Official Meeting (AP/Reuters)I think a clue that your outrage could be misplaced is actual supporters aren't reacting as you are. So who are the Useful Idiots here? The mainstream Republicans who are discounting everything that Rally Trump says? XOR The Trumpkins who are discounting everything that Teleprompter Trump says? There aren't two Trumps, that's another caricature. There's no contradiction here. All he did was temper himself and his speech for a meeting. As low as your expectations clearly are you should actually be proud he didn't threaten to use foreign aid to pay for construction of a giant phallus in Mexico so they could go fuck themselves. What's not helping politics right now is a mass of college-educated people boasting about how they have no idea what a guy who speaks at a 4th grade reading level's positions are or what he stands for, they have advanced degrees but this is too hard to crack, they can't figure it out. It's not hard if you pay attention.
You glossing over substantive policy shifts as mere tone shifts is some more Trumpian pretzel logic.
|
On September 01 2016 08:48 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 07:25 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:14 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:11 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:01 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 06:47 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 06:40 oBlade wrote:"Who pays for the wall? We didn't discuss," Trump said when asked by a reporter during a news conference following their meeting in Mexico City. "We did discuss the wall. We didn't discuss payment of the wall. That'll be for a later date." How does this become a "flip flop" and "total Trump capitulation." And how would a "flip flop" even be negative if you don't like the wall? 1) Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall (see campaign memo). Given the chance, he didn't bring it up (or any of the acts laid out in the campaign memo). Position abandoned. He will try to half walk this back today and tomorrow, but it won't work, just like his mass deportation walk back. 2) I can hold the following two positions and remain consistent: A - Trump's wall is foolishness and his plan to make Mexico pay for it is both a lie and foolish B - Trump is a deeply inconsistent flip-flopper who flips positions on a minute by minute basis to appease whoever he is talking to at that moment (see him not bringing up wall) How did you dismiss the idea that they just didn't talk about it like he said? It's their first ever meeting, he's still a candidate, they probably talked about many things. I doubt your post would be any less negative if he had come out and said he gave them the ultimatum. The "memo" is not some kind of secret that you revealed him abandoning, it's his publicly advertised position, all the info is on his campaign page. Perhaps a (EDIT: 6-second) video presentation would make this more clear. https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/771088055080026113 Man Speaks Differently To Enthusiastic Rally Than To Press At Official Meeting (AP/Reuters)I think a clue that your outrage could be misplaced is actual supporters aren't reacting as you are. So who are the Useful Idiots here? The mainstream Republicans who are discounting everything that Rally Trump says? XOR The Trumpkins who are discounting everything that Teleprompter Trump says? There aren't two Trumps, that's another caricature. There's no contradiction here. All he did was temper himself and his speech for a meeting. As low as your expectations clearly are you should actually be proud he didn't threaten to use foreign aid to pay for construction of a giant phallus in Mexico so they could go fuck themselves. What's not helping politics right now is a mass of college-educated people boasting about how they have no idea what a guy who speaks at a 4th grade reading level's positions are or what he stands for, they have advanced degrees but this is too hard to crack, they can't figure it out. It's not hard if you pay attention. You glossing over substantive policy shifts as mere tone shifts is some more Trumpian pretzel logic.
How can I ever recover?
|
On September 01 2016 08:42 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 08:30 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Aaannnnnd my previous posts are invalid because Trump lied again. I swear, if I take even one word out of his mouth as being true, then I am cucked for it within hours. Trump and Peña Nieto met privately in Mexico City on Wednesday afternoon.
When they emerged from the meeting, Trump told reporters they discussed the wall, but not paying for it.
Hours later, Peña Nieto tweeted his version: "At the beginning of the conversation with Donald Trump, I made clear that Mexico would not pay for the wall."http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/pena-nieto-says-trump-lied-about-wall-discussion He lies about literally everything. Why do people still give him the benefit of the doubt?
"I did not discuss paying for it, he may have said something, maybe he didn't, I wasn't listening to him because I was too busy thinking about myself."
|
On September 01 2016 05:51 LegalLord wrote:
A lot of Trump's statements are hyperbolic and stupid when taken at face value, but valuable in that they address an issue most mainstream politicians don't talk about.
Isn't this only because the only way to talk about these things in a way that most people will listen is to be hyperbolic and stupid?
The average TV-watching American doesn't have a whole of interest in a nitty-gritty detail-oriented approach to issues. If you show them politicians making real statements and doing real work, they're going to change the channel. Being absurd and inflammatory is the only way to get people's attention.
On the one hand I see the value in "addressing an issue most mainstream politicians don't talk about", but on the other hand, I can see a good reason why mainstream politicians don't talk about them. Most intelligent opinions on complex problems are probably rooted in a lot more research and boring minutiae than most Americans care to listen to.
|
Immigration reform has been on the lips of politicians doing work in Congress, and Trump's flamboyancy sure isn't bringing it closer to passage (not that it had a chance so long as the Freedom Caucus exists anyway).
|
|
|
On September 01 2016 08:34 josephmcjoe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 07:59 Nebuchad wrote:On September 01 2016 07:54 josephmcjoe wrote:The federal appeals court that struck the North Carolina law down disagrees with you.
[In response to claims that intentional racial discrimination animated its action, the State offered only meager justifications. Although the new provisions target African Americans with almost surgical precision, they constitute inapt remedies for the problems assertedly justifying them and, in fact, impose cures for problems that did not exist. Thus the asserted justifications cannot and do not conceal the State’s true motivation. “In essence,” as in League of United Latin American Citizens v. Perry (LULAC), 548 U.S. 399, 440 (2006), “the State took away [minority voters’] opportunity because [they] were about to exercise it.” As in LULAC, “[t]his bears the mark of intentional discrimination.” Id.] Why does race have to come up in so many places? Possibly because of the sentence "Although the new provisions target African Americans with almost surgical precision" I just looked up the provisions of the struck-down law, and here's what is so objectionable: 1) potential voter must present photo id 2) potential voter cannot register to vote on the day the election occurs 3) potential voter must vote in their local precinct This surgically targets blacks trying to vote? I don't see it. Any enlightenment welcome.
If you are actually interested in seeing why they said those provisions targeted blacks you can read the document I linked. I'll pull some highlights out for you though.
They requested data on the preferred methods of voting by race.
+ Show Spoiler +We do find worthy of discussion, however, the General Assembly’s requests for and use of race data in connection with SL 2013-381. As explained in detail above, prior to and during the limited debate on the expanded omnibus bill, members of the General Assembly requested and received a breakdown by race of DMV-issued ID ownership, absentee voting, early voting, same-day registration, and provisional voting (which includes out-of-precinct voting).
And then passed laws that targeted black voters but not white ones.
+ Show Spoiler +This data revealed that African Americans disproportionately used early voting, same-day registration, and
out-of-precinct voting, and disproportionately lacked DMV-issued ID. N.C. State Conf., 2016 WL 1650774, at *148; J.A. 1782-97, 3084-3119. Not only that, it also revealed that African Americans did not disproportionately use absentee voting; whites did. SL 2013-381 drastically restricted all of these other forms of access to the franchise, but exempted absentee voting from the photo ID requirement.
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 01 2016 09:03 TheYango wrote:
On the one hand I see the value in "addressing an issue most mainstream politicians don't talk about", but on the other hand, I can see a good reason why mainstream politicians don't talk about them. Most intelligent opinions on complex problems are probably rooted in a lot more research and boring minutiae than most Americans care to listen to.
Problem is that a lot of the time that sort of approach just leads to those in power acting in their own self interest while fucking over the peasants. Populist sentiments are often reckless, but generally have some validity and do not exist without reason (though many dismiss those reasons as "ppl just stoopid r8cist" which makes them more aggressive about those issues). It would be nice if you could trust politicians to act in your own self-interest on those kinds of issues but there's room for the kind of discussion that Trump has brought forth as well.
|
On September 01 2016 08:50 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 08:48 Doodsmack wrote:On September 01 2016 07:25 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:14 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:11 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:01 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 06:47 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 06:40 oBlade wrote:"Who pays for the wall? We didn't discuss," Trump said when asked by a reporter during a news conference following their meeting in Mexico City. "We did discuss the wall. We didn't discuss payment of the wall. That'll be for a later date." How does this become a "flip flop" and "total Trump capitulation." And how would a "flip flop" even be negative if you don't like the wall? 1) Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall (see campaign memo). Given the chance, he didn't bring it up (or any of the acts laid out in the campaign memo). Position abandoned. He will try to half walk this back today and tomorrow, but it won't work, just like his mass deportation walk back. 2) I can hold the following two positions and remain consistent: A - Trump's wall is foolishness and his plan to make Mexico pay for it is both a lie and foolish B - Trump is a deeply inconsistent flip-flopper who flips positions on a minute by minute basis to appease whoever he is talking to at that moment (see him not bringing up wall) How did you dismiss the idea that they just didn't talk about it like he said? It's their first ever meeting, he's still a candidate, they probably talked about many things. I doubt your post would be any less negative if he had come out and said he gave them the ultimatum. The "memo" is not some kind of secret that you revealed him abandoning, it's his publicly advertised position, all the info is on his campaign page. Perhaps a (EDIT: 6-second) video presentation would make this more clear. https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/771088055080026113 Man Speaks Differently To Enthusiastic Rally Than To Press At Official Meeting (AP/Reuters)I think a clue that your outrage could be misplaced is actual supporters aren't reacting as you are. So who are the Useful Idiots here? The mainstream Republicans who are discounting everything that Rally Trump says? XOR The Trumpkins who are discounting everything that Teleprompter Trump says? There aren't two Trumps, that's another caricature. There's no contradiction here. All he did was temper himself and his speech for a meeting. As low as your expectations clearly are you should actually be proud he didn't threaten to use foreign aid to pay for construction of a giant phallus in Mexico so they could go fuck themselves. What's not helping politics right now is a mass of college-educated people boasting about how they have no idea what a guy who speaks at a 4th grade reading level's positions are or what he stands for, they have advanced degrees but this is too hard to crack, they can't figure it out. It's not hard if you pay attention. You glossing over substantive policy shifts as mere tone shifts is some more Trumpian pretzel logic. How can I ever recover?
First, stop trying to spin Trump's lies and admit they are lies. Come clean and embrace demonstrable reality for bit.
Here is an easy one: Trump said paying for the wall didn't come up in meeting with Pena. Pena says it did and that Pena told Trump that Mexico would not pay for the wall. Trump plainly lied.
Try saying the following phrase out loud to yourself: "Trump lied about talking to Pena about getting Mexico to pay for the wall. In fact, they did, and Pena told him no."
|
On September 01 2016 07:14 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
...
So who are the Useful Idiots here?
The mainstream Republicans who are discounting everything that Rally Trump says?
XOR
The Trumpkins who are discounting everything that Teleprompter Trump says?
Is this really an XOR? I wouldn't be surprised if they were both true...
|
On September 01 2016 09:20 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 08:50 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 08:48 Doodsmack wrote:On September 01 2016 07:25 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:14 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:11 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:01 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 06:47 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 06:40 oBlade wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
How does this become a "flip flop" and "total Trump capitulation." And how would a "flip flop" even be negative if you don't like the wall? 1) Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall (see campaign memo). Given the chance, he didn't bring it up (or any of the acts laid out in the campaign memo). Position abandoned. He will try to half walk this back today and tomorrow, but it won't work, just like his mass deportation walk back. 2) I can hold the following two positions and remain consistent: A - Trump's wall is foolishness and his plan to make Mexico pay for it is both a lie and foolish B - Trump is a deeply inconsistent flip-flopper who flips positions on a minute by minute basis to appease whoever he is talking to at that moment (see him not bringing up wall) How did you dismiss the idea that they just didn't talk about it like he said? It's their first ever meeting, he's still a candidate, they probably talked about many things. I doubt your post would be any less negative if he had come out and said he gave them the ultimatum. The "memo" is not some kind of secret that you revealed him abandoning, it's his publicly advertised position, all the info is on his campaign page. Perhaps a (EDIT: 6-second) video presentation would make this more clear. https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/771088055080026113 Man Speaks Differently To Enthusiastic Rally Than To Press At Official Meeting (AP/Reuters)I think a clue that your outrage could be misplaced is actual supporters aren't reacting as you are. So who are the Useful Idiots here? The mainstream Republicans who are discounting everything that Rally Trump says? XOR The Trumpkins who are discounting everything that Teleprompter Trump says? There aren't two Trumps, that's another caricature. There's no contradiction here. All he did was temper himself and his speech for a meeting. As low as your expectations clearly are you should actually be proud he didn't threaten to use foreign aid to pay for construction of a giant phallus in Mexico so they could go fuck themselves. What's not helping politics right now is a mass of college-educated people boasting about how they have no idea what a guy who speaks at a 4th grade reading level's positions are or what he stands for, they have advanced degrees but this is too hard to crack, they can't figure it out. It's not hard if you pay attention. You glossing over substantive policy shifts as mere tone shifts is some more Trumpian pretzel logic. How can I ever recover? First, stop trying to spin Trump's lies and admit they are lies. Come clean and embrace demonstrable reality for bit. Here is an easy one: Trump said paying for the wall didn't come up in meeting with Pena. Pena says it did and that Pena told Trump that Mexico would not pay for the wall. Trump plainly lied. Try saying the following phrase out loud to yourself: "Trump lied about talking to Pena about getting Mexico to pay for the wall. In fact, they did, and Pena told him no."
Pena could just as easily be throwing him under a bus? This is just basic face-saving. Don't pretend like Trump invented politics.
|
On September 01 2016 09:01 a_flayer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 08:42 On_Slaught wrote:On September 01 2016 08:30 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Aaannnnnd my previous posts are invalid because Trump lied again. I swear, if I take even one word out of his mouth as being true, then I am cucked for it within hours. Trump and Peña Nieto met privately in Mexico City on Wednesday afternoon.
When they emerged from the meeting, Trump told reporters they discussed the wall, but not paying for it.
Hours later, Peña Nieto tweeted his version: "At the beginning of the conversation with Donald Trump, I made clear that Mexico would not pay for the wall."http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/pena-nieto-says-trump-lied-about-wall-discussion He lies about literally everything. Why do people still give him the benefit of the doubt? "I did not discuss paying for it, he may have said something, maybe he didn't, I wasn't listening to him because I was too busy thinking about myself."
Trump finally learning that you can't bully everyone as a diplomat.
|
On September 01 2016 10:10 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2016 09:20 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 08:50 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 08:48 Doodsmack wrote:On September 01 2016 07:25 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:14 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:11 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 07:04 CannonsNCarriers wrote:On September 01 2016 07:01 oBlade wrote:On September 01 2016 06:47 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
[quote]
1) Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall (see campaign memo). Given the chance, he didn't bring it up (or any of the acts laid out in the campaign memo). Position abandoned. He will try to half walk this back today and tomorrow, but it won't work, just like his mass deportation walk back.
2) I can hold the following two positions and remain consistent:
A - Trump's wall is foolishness and his plan to make Mexico pay for it is both a lie and foolish
B - Trump is a deeply inconsistent flip-flopper who flips positions on a minute by minute basis to appease whoever he is talking to at that moment (see him not bringing up wall) How did you dismiss the idea that they just didn't talk about it like he said? It's their first ever meeting, he's still a candidate, they probably talked about many things. I doubt your post would be any less negative if he had come out and said he gave them the ultimatum. The "memo" is not some kind of secret that you revealed him abandoning, it's his publicly advertised position, all the info is on his campaign page. Perhaps a (EDIT: 6-second) video presentation would make this more clear. https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/771088055080026113 Man Speaks Differently To Enthusiastic Rally Than To Press At Official Meeting (AP/Reuters)I think a clue that your outrage could be misplaced is actual supporters aren't reacting as you are. So who are the Useful Idiots here? The mainstream Republicans who are discounting everything that Rally Trump says? XOR The Trumpkins who are discounting everything that Teleprompter Trump says? There aren't two Trumps, that's another caricature. There's no contradiction here. All he did was temper himself and his speech for a meeting. As low as your expectations clearly are you should actually be proud he didn't threaten to use foreign aid to pay for construction of a giant phallus in Mexico so they could go fuck themselves. What's not helping politics right now is a mass of college-educated people boasting about how they have no idea what a guy who speaks at a 4th grade reading level's positions are or what he stands for, they have advanced degrees but this is too hard to crack, they can't figure it out. It's not hard if you pay attention. You glossing over substantive policy shifts as mere tone shifts is some more Trumpian pretzel logic. How can I ever recover? First, stop trying to spin Trump's lies and admit they are lies. Come clean and embrace demonstrable reality for bit. Here is an easy one: Trump said paying for the wall didn't come up in meeting with Pena. Pena says it did and that Pena told Trump that Mexico would not pay for the wall. Trump plainly lied. Try saying the following phrase out loud to yourself: "Trump lied about talking to Pena about getting Mexico to pay for the wall. In fact, they did, and Pena told him no." Pena could just as easily be throwing him under a bus? This is just basic face-saving. Don't pretend like Trump invented politics.
I will take that for now. I believe you can be saved. You were close to embracing reality, and you may yet do so. I will revisit this one in a few days when Trump capitulates this point. Pena is sticking by his account of bringing it up first thing in the meeting.
|
Here comes Trump in Arizona for his supposed Policy speech.
edit:
.....
|
My guess is he hasn't read this speech very much since he is blatantly staring down the teleprompter.
|
So where is the policy in this policy speech?
|
Trump completely disregarding the innate human rights of illegals. They aren't Americans so fuck them right?
|
Anyone spot the "Hillary sucks, but not like Monica" sign?
|
Someone needs to put moderate Republicans and those on Immigration Reform on suicide watch stat.
|
And there it is folks, the GOP has now lost it's mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
