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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
frazzle
Profile Joined June 2012
United States468 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 05:42:30
October 27 2015 05:41 GMT
#48761
double post
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 27 2015 15:22 GMT
#48762
WASHINGTON (AP) — Congressional leaders are throwing their collective weight behind a hard-won, two-year bipartisan budget plan aimed at heading off a looming government debt crisis and forestalling a government shutdown in December.

The pact, which would take these volatile issues off the table until after the 2016 presidential election, emerged in behind-the-scenes negotiations late Monday on Capitol Hill. It-would give both the Pentagon and domestic agencies $80 billion in debt relief in exchange for cuts elsewhere in the budget.

The deal represents one last accommodation between President Barack Obama and departing House Speaker John Boehner, but whether it succeeds depends in great measure on the reception it gets from restive House Republicans, including the arch-conservatives who forced the Ohio Republican out.


"This is again just the umpteenth time that you have this big, huge deal that'll last for two years and we were told nothing about it and in fact even today, were not given the details," said Rep. John Fleming, R-La. "And were probably going to have to vote on it in less than 48 hours." A vote could come as early as Wednesday in the House.

The measure was to be discussed further at a GOP meeting Tuesday morning. Boehner hoped to get it passed before Rep. Paul Ryan's election as his successor, expected Thursday

Boehner had promised to clear away as much business as possible before handing his speaker's gavel to Ryan, R-Wis. The newly-assembled budget plan would restore order to Washington and remove the threat of budget and debt chaos — a premier goal of congressional Republicans like Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, a key architect of the pact.

Capitol Hill Democrats are likely to solidly support the agreement, although it gives greater budget relief to the Pentagon than it does domestic programs.

The legislation would suspend the current $18.1 trillion debt limit through March 2017. The budget portion would increase the current "caps" on total agency spending by $50 billion in 2016 and $30 billion in 2017, offset by savings elsewhere in the budget. And it would permit about $16 billion to be added on top of that in 2016, classified as war funding, with a comparable boost in 2017.

It also would clean up expected problems in Social Security and Medicare by fixing a shortfall looming next year in Social Security payments to the disabled, as well as a large increase in Medicare premiums and deductibles for doctors' visits and other outpatient care.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
notesfromunderground
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
188 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 15:53:02
October 27 2015 15:47 GMT
#48763
On October 27 2015 14:32 frazzle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2015 13:31 notesfromunderground wrote:
That's just not how it played out man. Go read Jean Bodin. The idea of natural law was something that had coexisted for a long time with other legal discourses. Everyone believed in natural law already, it wasn't something that was explicitly invented in order to challenge and displace an older concept of 'divine law.'

Well, Locke WAS a product of his time. If you read any marxist historian out there they'll point out that his arguments were a de facto attempt to justify aspects of the enclosure movement as well as colonial practices. I don't doubt that Locke was, at least at some level, genuinely attempting to put into words what seemed to him to be a natural state of affairs, but this doesn't change the fact that he was a product of his time. I mean, just ask yourself, to whom was Locke speaking? Peasant farmers?

Edit: although I also agree, natural law was a philosophical concept that predates the enlightenment. It wasn't a cynical rebranding of divine right. But, I would agree with KwarK it occupied the same role in enlightenment times.


Sort of. But natural law and the state of nature are not the same thing. Locke wasn't trying to simply describe a naturally existing reality as he found it. If any of these thinkers thought that there was a "natural state of affairs," they certainly didn't think it existed in Europe (remember, these are Christians, they all are basically lapsarian thinkers - they think that the present state of human history is Fallen).

The point of "natural law theory" was to attempt to ground sovereignty in contracts, which fell under the category of natural law in the thought of the time. Earlier thinkers like Jean Bodin, for instance, held that no sovereign could be bound by a contract within his own domain, because the sovereign was above the law (two sovereigns could be bound by contracts with each other, though, because the sphere of intersovereign relations was one governed by natural law). The later thinkers really, really wanted the sovereign to be bound by contracts, so they wanted to develop a theory of sovereignty which was grounded in natural law. This is an entirely different thing that claiming than one's own society is a "naturally existing state of affairs" (as a sort of apologetic strategy) which none of them were about to do.

If you want to tell a story about the development of natural law theory and liberal constitutionalism, you should tell a story about the centralization of the fiscal state in the 'absolute' monarchies of the 16th-17th centuries and the subsequent attempts by the propertied classes to constrain that state's ability to raise revenues arbitrarily. Liberal constitutionalism is about the growing power of the creditor classes who need a political theory under which the sovereign is inextricably (indeed, constitutively) bound by the debts and obligations he owes his subjects.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 16:08:48
October 27 2015 16:08 GMT
#48764
For decades, many presidential candidates campaigning in Iowa have made sure to offer their loud support for ethanol — the fuel made from corn.

Ethanol is an important industry in Iowa. The state is the top producer of ethanol in the nation, accounting for 28 percent of national production, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

But this election cycle, ethanol is not the campaign force it once was.

Take the contrast between George W. Bush's 2000 presidential campaign and the current campaign of his brother, Jeb Bush.

During a 1999 debate in Iowa, George Bush declared: "I support ethanol, and I support ethanol strongly. I'd support ethanol whether I was in here in Iowa or not."

That position helped power Bush to victory in the 2000 Iowa caucuses before eventually winning the White House. The Bush administration created the Renewable Fuel Standard that required ethanol to be blended into the nation's gasoline supply. These days, the Obama administration is proposing to scale back the proposal.

Meanwhile, Jeb Bush, the former governor of Florida, has adopted a very different position from his brother on ethanol policy.

"I think, ultimately, we need to get to a point where there aren't winners or losers based on subsidies or mandates or anything else," Jeb Bush said in an interview with Iowa Public Radio.

That's a common response from Republican presidential candidates these days, and it comes at a time when the ethanol industry is struggling. New fuel-efficiency standards have lowered demand for gasoline — and ethanol — while some critics say the fuel's environmental benefits haven't panned out either.

The ethanol industry is trying to stay in the political debate by tracking what candidates are saying about the Renewable Fuel Standard and offering caucusgoers a report card on candidates' positions.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
October 27 2015 16:32 GMT
#48765
Sometimes I wonder if Jeb actually doesn't want to be president and that his whole life has been managed by his father or some deep shit like that. Between his deer in headlights demeanor and statements like this that would never in a million years benefit him in any way, I don't think he actually wants to be president.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 27 2015 16:35 GMT
#48766
Boehner got us a budget deal, sometimes you wonder why it was so hard the last 4 or 5 times... sigh
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 27 2015 17:08 GMT
#48767
On October 28 2015 01:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Sometimes I wonder if Jeb actually doesn't want to be president and that his whole life has been managed by his father or some deep shit like that. Between his deer in headlights demeanor and statements like this that would never in a million years benefit him in any way, I don't think he actually wants to be president.



Here is your answer:

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22083 Posts
October 27 2015 17:18 GMT
#48768
On October 28 2015 01:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
Boehner got us a budget deal, sometimes you wonder why it was so hard the last 4 or 5 times... sigh

Has it actually passed congress? Until it does im not believing it
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
October 27 2015 18:14 GMT
#48769
On October 28 2015 02:18 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 28 2015 01:35 ticklishmusic wrote:
Boehner got us a budget deal, sometimes you wonder why it was so hard the last 4 or 5 times... sigh

Has it actually passed congress? Until it does im not believing it


Key point about Boehner's deal:

"Pelosi embraced the agreement Tuesday morning, signaling that the 188 House Democrats could provide a large portion of the vote needed to get a majority vote in the House."

Remember who is actually the governing party in America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/10/27/budget-bargain-faces-first-test-today-with-house-republicans/
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 27 2015 18:45 GMT
#48770
Rep. Mo Brooks (R-AL), a member of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, has received a pledge from Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) that if he is elected speaker, he will not pass immigration reform while President Obama is in office or without majority support from House Republicans.

Brooks delivered a letter to Ryan last week asking him to agree to those terms, which Ryan verbally agreed to during a meeting with the House Freedom Caucus, according to Brooks.

"Struggling American families have lost more than 8 million job opportunities to illegal aliens. All lower and middle income American workers have suffered from suppressed wages caused by the surge in both illegal alien and lawful immigrant labor supply," Brooks began in the letter. "Your past record and current stance on immigration conflicts with the values of the Americans I represent and causes great concern to me and the Americans I represent."

Brooks then asked Ryan to confirm that he would not pass immigration legislation under Obama or without the support of Republicans.

The congressman said that if Ryan does not agree to the pledges in the letter, "it will be very difficult for me to vote for you for Speaker on the House Floor."

Brooks will enter the letter into the Congressional Record on Tuesday, his office confirmed.

Brendan Buck, a spokesman for Ryan, told National Review that Ryan has made it "clear" that he will not push for immigration reform while Obama is president.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
October 27 2015 19:07 GMT
#48771
So is Ashton's announcement that the US will be taking "direction action on the ground" in Syria something new or an admission about what's already going on?
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 27 2015 20:21 GMT
#48772
The US has reversed longstanding opposition to Iran’s participation in peace talks to end the Syrian civil war, paving the way for a possible diplomatic breakthrough in the four-year conflict.

Officials in Washington insisted the move was a “genuine multilateral invitation” and implied they had succeeded in overcoming Saudi Arabian opposition to Iran attending the talks in Vienna on Friday.

Nearly two years ago, a similar offer for Iran to attend an earlier round of talks in Geneva was hastily rescinded by UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon after fierce opposition from the US, Britain and Syrian opposition groups.

But continued bloodshed and diplomatic stalemate have combined with a worsening refugee crisis and new Russian military intervention to put pressure on the international community to find a fresh political approach to ending the war.

The presence of Iran, which, along with Russia, has been a crucial ally of the Syrian government, could be a crucial factor in bringing the competing external players in the conflict to a common agreement on how to end the conflict.

The US insists that a central goal of the peace talks also remains the removal of current president Bashar al-Assad, who it says has been responsible for too many civilian deaths to remain a credible part of any future government.

“The ultimate goal that everyone wants to get to … is to come up with a framework for a successful political transition in Syria which leads to a government not led by Bashar al-Assad and that is representative of and responsive to the Syrian people,” State Department spokesman John Kirby told reporters in Washington on Tuesday.

But Washington officials did not say whether Iran had agreed to that principle too, who had extended the invitation, or even whether Iran would accept the invitation to attend this week’s Austrian talks.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
October 27 2015 20:22 GMT
#48773
So is there any chance for Citizens United to be repealed in 2016?

Obviously no Republican would do that (barring Ron Paul, but he ain't running...), but I don't think I heard Hillary even mentioning it...

Can anyone school me on how that even came about? How did they convince the American voters that more money in politics would be a good thing?
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
October 27 2015 20:40 GMT
#48774
re: mcfanny
The decision wasn't made by American voters. It was a decision made by the Supreme Court of the US, on 1st amendment (freedom of speech) grounds. As such it can't be repealed easily, you'd have to do a constitutional amendment to change it, which would be very difficult: not only are amendments in general difficult, but it would also require weakening something in the Bill of Rights, which is gonna make it even harder.
While it's theoretically possible for the Supreme Court to override previous rulings, they in general don't do that (legal principle Stare Decisis), and even when they do overturn a prior Court ruling, it's one that's at least a few decades old, typically longer; where ethical standards have changed a lot since then.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7230 Posts
October 27 2015 20:41 GMT
#48775
On October 28 2015 05:22 DickMcFanny wrote:
So is there any chance for Citizens United to be repealed in 2016?

Obviously no Republican would do that (barring Ron Paul, but he ain't running...), but I don't think I heard Hillary even mentioning it...

Can anyone school me on how that even came about? How did they convince the American voters that more money in politics would be a good thing?


It can't be repealed because it's not a law. Citizens United was a Supreme Court decision. It has to be overturned by the Supreme Court in a future case or by constitutional amendment. The chances of either in 2016 are very low.
日本語が分かりますか
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
October 27 2015 20:48 GMT
#48776
So when Sanders says the first thing he'll do is 'overthrow' CU when he is elected, he's just blowing hot air?

| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 20:50:33
October 27 2015 20:49 GMT
#48777
It's one of the less feasible parts of his platform, yes

Sander's strategy is essentially reliant on an overwhelming mandate
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 20:55:32
October 27 2015 20:52 GMT
#48778
It's really not that unrealistic. Many things need to fall into place first, but the Supreme Court justices that Sanders appoints will be anti-Citizens United, there'll be injury in fact guaranteed given the repetitive nature of elections and the sheer volume of money spent via CU's holding and authorization, and you better believe that a host of very capable lawyers will be looking to bring such a case before the Supreme Court. It would only be a matter of time. But no, Sanders himself cannot overturn CU, he can merely put the people who can into power.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7230 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 21:04:59
October 27 2015 21:03 GMT
#48779
The only things Sanders can do as President are propose a constitutional amendment (good luck getting the 2/3 vote in both houses) and nominate Supreme Court Justices who would overturn the decision. Depending on who retires from the court, the second method is not too far-fetched. Scalia is 79.

But I can guarantee it will not be the first thing Sanders does. The timing of judicial retirement is not up to him. If he promised to overturn Citizens United as the first order of business that would be standard politician fare of making unrealistic promises to deliver the moon and the stars.
日本語が分かりますか
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-27 21:06:46
October 27 2015 21:05 GMT
#48780
I find it hard to make a good argument. Money played some role in Romney v Obama, but in this election it seems like rich people are just throwing their money down the toilet. I am content to watch.

Also, RBG, Breyer, Scalia and Kennedy are the 4 oldest justices. 2 of them are liberal and Kennedy has been getting more liberal... so I don't know if an appointment would have that much effect unless it's Scalia that dies first because the next president is going to have to pry the gavel from his cold, dead, pudgy fingers.

Scalia really should go though, his opinions are starting to contradict each other. My business law professor loved citing Scalia fails. Maybe it's a sign of dementia.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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