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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2082

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 06 2015 23:29 GMT
#41621
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19573 Posts
July 06 2015 23:34 GMT
#41622
On July 07 2015 08:28 killa_robot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 08:02 Slaughter wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:52 cLutZ wrote:
On July 07 2015 05:04 Bagration wrote:
On July 06 2015 11:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 06 2015 11:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
WALSENBURG, Colo. — Over the past six years, Colorado has conducted one of the largest ever real-life experiments with long-acting birth control. If teenagers and poor women were offered free intrauterine devices and implants that prevent pregnancy for years, state officials asked, would those women choose them?

They did in a big way, and the results were startling. The birthrate for teenagers across the state plunged by 40 percent from 2009 to 2013, while their rate of abortions fell by 42 percent, according to the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment. There was a similar decline in births for another group particularly vulnerable to unplanned pregnancies: unmarried women under 25 who have not finished high school.

“Our demographer came into my office with a chart and said, ‘Greta, look at this, we’ve never seen this before,’ ” said Greta Klingler, the family planning supervisor for the public health department. “The numbers were plummeting.”

The changes were particularly pronounced in the poorest areas of the state, places like Walsenburg, a small city in Southern Colorado where jobs are scarce and unplanned births come often to the young. Hope Martinez, a 20-year-old nursing home receptionist here, recently had a small rod implanted under the skin of her upper arm to prevent pregnancy for three years. She has big plans — to marry, to move West, and to become a dental hygienist.

“I don’t want any babies for a while,” she said.

More young women are making that choice. In 2009, half of all first births to women in the poorest areas of the state happened before they turned 21. By 2014, half of first births did not occur until they had turned 24, a difference that advocates say gives young women time to finish their educations and to gain a foothold in an increasingly competitive job market.

“If we want to reduce poverty, one of the simplest, fastest and cheapest things we could do would be to make sure that as few people as possible become parents before they actually want to,” said Isabel Sawhill, an economist at the Brookings Institution. She argues in her 2014 book, “Generation Unbound: Drifting Into Sex and Parenthood Without Marriage,” that single parenthood is a principal driver of inequality and long-acting birth control a powerful tool to prevent it.


Source



Meanwhile in Mississippi...

"abstinence education shall be the state standard for any sex-related education taught in the public schools"


Source

Mississippi is the poorest state in the US, with 695,915 people living below the poverty line. It also ranks last in its rate of child poverty (33.7%), and next to last in hunger and food insecurity.


Source


Funny, just read an article that basically slams the South for pulling the US down compared to other developed nations:

Source

Who would have thunk that using religious dogma to create policy in the 21st century doesn't quite work so well?


I will be monitoring this story if it catches on because it feels like its 1/2 or 1/3 of a story. We had that 538 article a while back that basically said, "Blacks in America have 3rd world murder rates", but unintentionally showed whites did not (is that more or less true for southern whites, which this story is essentially attacking? I don't know). Can we get more granular data (county by county instead of state by state?) because we know that in the North cities skew more violent than suburbs, maybe southern cities are the problem? Same with the mobility issue. The data just seems very cherrypicked when we know that traditionally many of these narratives break down on other lines rather than if someone is yankee vs. southerner.


Socio-economic status being the primary driver of murder and crime is probably something that North and South share.


Yeah, for the most part anything to do with race and crime is actually a link between poverty and crime.

Issue is culture likely has something to do with it too, but the moment you make any sort of claim of that, everyone will just cry racism.


Except, in this case, there was a blatant attack on a culture. So it kind of also exposes the hypocrisy of multiculturalists.
Freeeeeeedom
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-07 00:07:11
July 07 2015 00:04 GMT
#41623
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7



I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23010 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-07 00:32:23
July 07 2015 00:12 GMT
#41624
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I also love how Bernie always has a "God I wish someone else was doing all this crap" attitude. Like he'd really rather be hanging out with his grand kids but someone has to fight the good fight at the national level so he'll do it. He is the reluctant leader we've been needing for a while. It's not about him and what he wants it's about us and what we want.

I for one would think that as the richest country in the world we shouldn't have so many hungry children 20% should disgust anyone regardless of political stripe. I believe we can do it and it's not going to be by going back to Bush's economic strategies or imitating stuff like Scott Walker did.

In 2011, under the direction of Walker, Wisconsin created a new economic development agency called the Wisconsin Economic Development Corporation (WEDC). Within its first year, it awarded $41.3 million in grants, $20.5 million in loansand $110.8 million in tax credits to private entities, all for the purpose of “nurtur[ing] … business growth and job creation.”

Walker’s WEDC set job creation targets — but did little to ensure that they were met. Far short of the 250,000 jobs that he promised to create, Walker could only report 5,840 new jobs from the WEDC after its first two years, according to the Center for Media and Democracy.


Source
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-07 00:30:16
July 07 2015 00:28 GMT
#41625
On July 07 2015 09:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I dunno, having been around and worked for small restaurants, I now understand very easily why so many people had no guilty conscious about destroying their business whenever riots broke out. Wage theft, insane hours, and monthly salaries which often leads to abuse. Maybe things are different in the restaurant world, but there is very little difference between large and small business in regards to the treatment to workers with the exception of who is watched more closely in regards to labor laws (when one side is not too busy trying to legally change the ability lower working conditions) and it does not help when around 50 percent of businesses are pretty open about not wanting to raise wages.
Go ahead and support small businesses, but for the love of God do not romanticize them as some sort of humanistic force in the face of big corporate tyranny because that is just fantasy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23010 Posts
July 07 2015 00:40 GMT
#41626
On July 07 2015 09:28 Shiragaku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 09:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I dunno, having been around and worked for small restaurants, I now understand very easily why so many people had no guilty conscious about destroying their business whenever riots broke out. Wage theft, insane hours, and monthly salaries which often leads to abuse. Maybe things are different in the restaurant world, but there is very little difference between large and small business in regards to the treatment to workers with the exception of who is watched more closely in regards to labor laws (when one side is not too busy trying to legally change the ability lower working conditions) and it does not help when around 50 percent of businesses are pretty open about not wanting to raise wages.
Go ahead and support small businesses, but for the love of God do not romanticize them as some sort of humanistic force in the face of big corporate tyranny because that is just fantasy.


Our system has gotten incredibly twisted. If fast food workers got paid a comparable wage to what they made before Reagan and his economic non-sense they'd be getting paid even more than the $15 they are demanding.

Small businesses aren't perfect but there is a humanizing force to actually having to face the people you want to treat poorly. Of course things are different from individual to individual and people's desperation gives them quite an upper-hand in negotiating.

"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
July 07 2015 00:48 GMT
#41627
While wages are very important, I sometimes think people are neglecting other avenues. To have a living wage is a combination of both what the wages are, and what the cost of living is. Finding ways to lower the cost of living is something well worth doing, and not done enough imho.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23010 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-07 01:08:03
July 07 2015 00:59 GMT
#41628
On July 07 2015 09:48 zlefin wrote:
While wages are very important, I sometimes think people are neglecting other avenues. To have a living wage is a combination of both what the wages are, and what the cost of living is. Finding ways to lower the cost of living is something well worth doing, and not done enough imho.


Single payer healthcare could go a long way for a lot of people.

What do conservatives think about Bernie Sanders suggestion that we should have primary debates between Democrats and Republicans?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 07 2015 01:09 GMT
#41629
On July 07 2015 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 09:28 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I dunno, having been around and worked for small restaurants, I now understand very easily why so many people had no guilty conscious about destroying their business whenever riots broke out. Wage theft, insane hours, and monthly salaries which often leads to abuse. Maybe things are different in the restaurant world, but there is very little difference between large and small business in regards to the treatment to workers with the exception of who is watched more closely in regards to labor laws (when one side is not too busy trying to legally change the ability lower working conditions) and it does not help when around 50 percent of businesses are pretty open about not wanting to raise wages.
Go ahead and support small businesses, but for the love of God do not romanticize them as some sort of humanistic force in the face of big corporate tyranny because that is just fantasy.


Our system has gotten incredibly twisted. If fast food workers got paid a comparable wage to what they made before Reagan and his economic non-sense they'd be getting paid even more than the $15 they are demanding.

Small businesses aren't perfect but there is a humanizing force to actually having to face the people you want to treat poorly. Of course things are different from individual to individual and people's desperation gives them quite an upper-hand in negotiating.

"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society, other than it makes a nice, 'my feelings r happy' slogan.

Large businesses tend to pay more and have better protections for workers.

Public policy moved from a higher minimum wage to a lower minimum wage plus benefits. That shift was been widely regarded as a good thing - helping to keep the workforce flexible while continuing to reduce poverty.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
July 07 2015 01:13 GMT
#41630
On July 07 2015 10:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:28 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I dunno, having been around and worked for small restaurants, I now understand very easily why so many people had no guilty conscious about destroying their business whenever riots broke out. Wage theft, insane hours, and monthly salaries which often leads to abuse. Maybe things are different in the restaurant world, but there is very little difference between large and small business in regards to the treatment to workers with the exception of who is watched more closely in regards to labor laws (when one side is not too busy trying to legally change the ability lower working conditions) and it does not help when around 50 percent of businesses are pretty open about not wanting to raise wages.
Go ahead and support small businesses, but for the love of God do not romanticize them as some sort of humanistic force in the face of big corporate tyranny because that is just fantasy.


Our system has gotten incredibly twisted. If fast food workers got paid a comparable wage to what they made before Reagan and his economic non-sense they'd be getting paid even more than the $15 they are demanding.

Small businesses aren't perfect but there is a humanizing force to actually having to face the people you want to treat poorly. Of course things are different from individual to individual and people's desperation gives them quite an upper-hand in negotiating.

"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society, other than it makes a nice, 'my feelings r happy' slogan.

Large businesses tend to pay more and have better protections for workers.

Public policy moved from a higher minimum wage to a lower minimum wage plus benefits. That shift was been widely regarded as a good thing - helping to keep the workforce flexible while continuing to reduce poverty.

Most of human history did not have us living in an industrial and consumer society where mass wealth was suddenly produced.
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
July 07 2015 01:13 GMT
#41631
On July 07 2015 10:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:28 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I dunno, having been around and worked for small restaurants, I now understand very easily why so many people had no guilty conscious about destroying their business whenever riots broke out. Wage theft, insane hours, and monthly salaries which often leads to abuse. Maybe things are different in the restaurant world, but there is very little difference between large and small business in regards to the treatment to workers with the exception of who is watched more closely in regards to labor laws (when one side is not too busy trying to legally change the ability lower working conditions) and it does not help when around 50 percent of businesses are pretty open about not wanting to raise wages.
Go ahead and support small businesses, but for the love of God do not romanticize them as some sort of humanistic force in the face of big corporate tyranny because that is just fantasy.


Our system has gotten incredibly twisted. If fast food workers got paid a comparable wage to what they made before Reagan and his economic non-sense they'd be getting paid even more than the $15 they are demanding.

Small businesses aren't perfect but there is a humanizing force to actually having to face the people you want to treat poorly. Of course things are different from individual to individual and people's desperation gives them quite an upper-hand in negotiating.

"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society, other than it makes a nice, 'my feelings r happy' slogan.

Large businesses tend to pay more and have better protections for workers.

Public policy moved from a higher minimum wage to a lower minimum wage plus benefits. That shift was been widely regarded as a good thing - helping to keep the workforce flexible while continuing to reduce poverty.


So why don't we just disregard the move by many companies to push many employees into non-employee status to not have to pay those benefits while still benefiting from lower minimum wage?

The minimum wage, and its benefits, have not kept up with inflation. Any statement otherwise is false.
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
July 07 2015 01:14 GMT
#41632
I think the notion of small business being on average more empathetic is bullshit. Owners and managers of small stores and restaurants pull all sorts of stuff that people in large corps don't or can't.

Yes please to single-payer though-- I'm betting it'll come around in maybe 20 years. Obamacare is a good step forward, but it's a bandaid. Frankly, our system needs surgery. The bandaid is slowing the bleeding (increasing cost of care), but eventually it'll get bad enough that the taxpayer will be willing to go get the surgery.

On the other hand, I'm kind of optimistic that Obamacare is enough to get us past the price increase crisis, and that public and private sector innovation will get to the point where we can control costs w/o the need for single payer. There's a lot of really great stuff going on in the health and wellness space. I'm a bit biased though because that's the industry I'm in.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 07 2015 01:32 GMT
#41633
On July 07 2015 10:13 Shiragaku wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 10:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:28 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I dunno, having been around and worked for small restaurants, I now understand very easily why so many people had no guilty conscious about destroying their business whenever riots broke out. Wage theft, insane hours, and monthly salaries which often leads to abuse. Maybe things are different in the restaurant world, but there is very little difference between large and small business in regards to the treatment to workers with the exception of who is watched more closely in regards to labor laws (when one side is not too busy trying to legally change the ability lower working conditions) and it does not help when around 50 percent of businesses are pretty open about not wanting to raise wages.
Go ahead and support small businesses, but for the love of God do not romanticize them as some sort of humanistic force in the face of big corporate tyranny because that is just fantasy.


Our system has gotten incredibly twisted. If fast food workers got paid a comparable wage to what they made before Reagan and his economic non-sense they'd be getting paid even more than the $15 they are demanding.

Small businesses aren't perfect but there is a humanizing force to actually having to face the people you want to treat poorly. Of course things are different from individual to individual and people's desperation gives them quite an upper-hand in negotiating.

"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society, other than it makes a nice, 'my feelings r happy' slogan.

Large businesses tend to pay more and have better protections for workers.

Public policy moved from a higher minimum wage to a lower minimum wage plus benefits. That shift was been widely regarded as a good thing - helping to keep the workforce flexible while continuing to reduce poverty.

Most of human history did not have us living in an industrial and consumer society where mass wealth was suddenly produced.

So what?

On July 07 2015 10:13 YoureFired wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 10:09 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:40 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:28 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:12 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 09:04 Shiragaku wrote:
On July 07 2015 07:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
If you haven't heard Bernie Sanders speak to people (No teleprompter) you should check out My Blog and his live event Starting at 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d9poJU6Kiw

I really never understood the romanticization of small businesses. It's as if the problems in capitalism are only caused by big businesses and big banks and not your local restaurant ran by mom and pop.

And the rants about the omnipotent Koch Brothers overlords. Liberals seriously act like these guys are the hidden masterminds behind anything reactionary.


The thing about small businesses is that the same people making the decisions that impact peoples lives actually have to know and live with/around those people.

When a big corporate CEO pushes for changes in a policy at the front-line level they don't have to deal with a friend dying/being maimed because they weren't given proper training (so they could start 'working' sooner) they don't have to go to the beaches they cover in oil, etc...

It's not even a "evil" thing it's just a human nature thing.

I dunno, having been around and worked for small restaurants, I now understand very easily why so many people had no guilty conscious about destroying their business whenever riots broke out. Wage theft, insane hours, and monthly salaries which often leads to abuse. Maybe things are different in the restaurant world, but there is very little difference between large and small business in regards to the treatment to workers with the exception of who is watched more closely in regards to labor laws (when one side is not too busy trying to legally change the ability lower working conditions) and it does not help when around 50 percent of businesses are pretty open about not wanting to raise wages.
Go ahead and support small businesses, but for the love of God do not romanticize them as some sort of humanistic force in the face of big corporate tyranny because that is just fantasy.


Our system has gotten incredibly twisted. If fast food workers got paid a comparable wage to what they made before Reagan and his economic non-sense they'd be getting paid even more than the $15 they are demanding.

Small businesses aren't perfect but there is a humanizing force to actually having to face the people you want to treat poorly. Of course things are different from individual to individual and people's desperation gives them quite an upper-hand in negotiating.

"no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society, other than it makes a nice, 'my feelings r happy' slogan.

Large businesses tend to pay more and have better protections for workers.

Public policy moved from a higher minimum wage to a lower minimum wage plus benefits. That shift was been widely regarded as a good thing - helping to keep the workforce flexible while continuing to reduce poverty.


So why don't we just disregard the move by many companies to push many employees into non-employee status to not have to pay those benefits while still benefiting from lower minimum wage?

The minimum wage, and its benefits, have not kept up with inflation. Any statement otherwise is false.

Last I checked the min wage + EITC has.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
July 07 2015 01:43 GMT
#41634
So what?

With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23010 Posts
July 07 2015 01:47 GMT
#41635
On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:
Show nested quote +
So what?

With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed.


Your mistake was bothering to engage when his opener was:

Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society


Some of the other things we didn't have for most of human history....Indoor plumbing, electricity, Christianity, petroleum products, etc... I'm not sure why they are suddenly an integral part of society lol.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
July 07 2015 01:50 GMT
#41636
Ok two real questions to anybody here who would vote in Democratic caucus:

1. What are the biggest issues facing our nation




2. Who has better solutions for them, Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders?



I'm keeping it open-ended because I trust you all to take the first question seriously. I will genuinely engage anybody who does.

Keep hypothetical politicking/electability conversations out for the time being.
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44052 Posts
July 07 2015 01:52 GMT
#41637
On July 07 2015 08:29 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rCgtGgy1Ps


I know I just drank a whole bottle of wine, but I still feel justified in wanting to punch this man in the throat.

Like, hard.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 07 2015 01:55 GMT
#41638
On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:
Show nested quote +
So what?

With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed.

On July 07 2015 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:
So what?

With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed.


Your mistake was bothering to engage when his opener was:

Show nested quote +
Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society


Some of the other things we didn't have for most of human history....Indoor plumbing, electricity, Christianity, petroleum products, etc... I'm not sure why they are suddenly an integral part of society lol.


We also didn't have industrialized mass murder. But we can now, so - huzzah!

Since you guys don't seem to be getting the point I'll try to spell it out more directly. Why should we have living wages when other options are arguably better? "Because I wants it!!!" isn't a very good argument, kids.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23010 Posts
July 07 2015 01:58 GMT
#41639
On July 07 2015 10:50 YoureFired wrote:
Ok two real questions to anybody here who would vote in Democratic caucus:

1. What are the biggest issues facing our nation




2. Who has better solutions for them, Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders?



I'm keeping it open-ended because I trust you all to take the first question seriously. I will genuinely engage anybody who does.

Keep hypothetical politicking/electability conversations out for the time being.



1. Losing all control of our democracy to the very wealthiest and most ignorant among us.


2. Bernie. He's not political property of the billionaire class.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23010 Posts
July 07 2015 02:07 GMT
#41640
On July 07 2015 10:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:
So what?

With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed.

Show nested quote +
On July 07 2015 10:47 GreenHorizons wrote:
On July 07 2015 10:43 Shiragaku wrote:
So what?

With all this wealth being produced with all of society transitioning from agrarianism, to industrialism, to consumerism, it should not be far fetched to propose that the way work is viewed and conducted should also be changed.


Your mistake was bothering to engage when his opener was:

Most work over most of human history hasn't paid a '1st world arbitrary living wage'. I'm not sure why this is suddenly a integral part of society


Some of the other things we didn't have for most of human history....Indoor plumbing, electricity, Christianity, petroleum products, etc... I'm not sure why they are suddenly an integral part of society lol.


We also didn't have industrialized mass murder. But we can now, so - huzzah!

Since you guys don't seem to be getting the point I'll try to spell it out more directly. Why should we have living wages when other options are arguably better? "Because I wants it!!!" isn't a very good argument, kids.


It's the most accessible and easiest to enforce, are a couple better reasons.

For instance you mentioned the EITC. Many people don't get it because they don't even know they qualify, they don't file (because they are told they don't have to), or when they do get it they don't even get all of it because some tax preparation company takes a slice. That ~$910,000,000 in profits from H&R Block isn't primarily coming from millionaires.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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