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On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals.
My grandfather is terribly racist still against Asian people.
As long as you weren't ss (waffen ss were still finatic nazies) I don't think you have too much to be ashamed of.
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On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war.
I highly doubt that.
People seem to forget how incredibly racist the Allies were during WWII, how anti-Jewish their countries as a whole were, and how much of WWII was driven by nationalism and not saving the world from the evil Germans (most of the world didn't even know the concentration camps were real until after). Remember, WWI happened because all of Europe wanted a war, and WWII was only feared because most of the major powers were still recovering and in a serious depression.
Really, if a Union-won US can still have the lasting effects of the Confederates, then a Confederate-won US wouldn't have killed the North. At worst the US would've been even more isolationist during the wars than they were.
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United States43350 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war.
I don't disagree. I was just arguing that Germans weren't necessarily fighting for Nazism and Nazism didn't have a monopoly on distasteful racial views. You can honour your WW2 German veterans without invoking Nazism and the Nazi flag.
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On June 29 2015 05:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war. I highly doubt that. People seem to forget how incredibly racist the Allies were during WWII, how anti-Jewish their countries as a whole were, and how much of WWII was driven by nationalism and not saving the world from the evil Germans (most of the world didn't even know the concentration camps were real until after). Remember, WWI happened because all of Europe wanted a war, and WWII was only feared because most of the major powers were still recovering and in a serious depression. Really, if a Union-won US can still have the lasting effects of the Confederates, then a Confederate-won US wouldn't have killed the North. At worst the US would've been even more isolationist during the wars than they were.
An isolationist US seems to me the likely outcome. I'm assuming that a CSA victory would have entailed a peace where the Confederacy simply became independent, and perhaps got some of the Western territories, but probably not even that. As a result, you would have had two countries instead of one, far weaker as a force in global affairs. Slavery would have had a better chance to persist elsewhere and democratization would have been dealt a terrible blow.
World War II might not even have happened in the fashion we know it; US intervention in WWI would have been less certain, given that the Zimmerman telegram would never have happened. The Mexico intervention would have had a different story, as would US colonial/anti-colonial enterprises generally.
But if something like the Nazis risen up, the South would have been very sympathetic to their rhetoric. After all, holding "inferior races" as slaves was something they could come to terms with. Heck, Hitler was personally quite impressed with many aspects of Jim Crow, and in this alternate future something much more complete and sinister would have been in place.
Would the CSA have declared war on the Free World (if the "Free World" would have come to exist at all) and joined the Nazis? Probably not. The USA would always have been stronger, and the threat of military conflict with their larger northern neighbor would probably have detered them. But the potential threat from the South would also have affected US politicians decision-making. That and the probability that the US would have had fewer or no overseas possessions would have meant that conflict with the Japanese was less a sure thing. Conflict with Germany become even more unlikely.
And a world where the US had never joined WWII would be a dark place indeed. Best case, Soviet rule would have destroyed Europe's future, and Japanese rule would have turned Asia into a continent ruled by a racist military totalitarian regime. Worst case, the Nazis would have won.
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United States43350 Posts
Best case the Soviets ruled Europe?
If you think the Soviets were better than the Nazis you've not really been paying much attention. One of the more depressing realizations I came to when reading "The Court of the Red Tsar" (fantastic biography, 10/10) recently was that I was rooting for the Nazis to win the Eastern Front which they absolutely would have without American aid (not in terms of the Western front, I mean the money and hardware). That would have probably been a better result.
The good guys went into World War II trying to defend national sovereignty, particularly that of Poland, and the balance of power, along with their own national interests. The end of the war saw the national interests (mainly in the form of their empires) of Britain and France shattered forever, Poland, the Balkans, half of Germany and the rest of Eastern Europe becoming part of a hegemonic totalitarian empire and the balance of power being so incredibly fucked up that only the threat of destroying the world kept nations in check. That's 0/3 on the good guys there.
Good guys lost WW II. Bad guys won. Not the bad guys who we initially set out to stop but the bad guys we made a deal with to stop the first set of bad guys who ended up doing the exact same bad guy stuff we didn't want the first guys to do.
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On June 29 2015 07:04 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 05:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war. I highly doubt that. People seem to forget how incredibly racist the Allies were during WWII, how anti-Jewish their countries as a whole were, and how much of WWII was driven by nationalism and not saving the world from the evil Germans (most of the world didn't even know the concentration camps were real until after). Remember, WWI happened because all of Europe wanted a war, and WWII was only feared because most of the major powers were still recovering and in a serious depression. Really, if a Union-won US can still have the lasting effects of the Confederates, then a Confederate-won US wouldn't have killed the North. At worst the US would've been even more isolationist during the wars than they were. An isolationist US seems to me the likely outcome. I'm assuming that a CSA victory would have entailed a peace where the Confederacy simply became independent, and perhaps got some of the Western territories, but probably not even that. As a result, you would have had two countries instead of one, far weaker as a force in global affairs. Slavery would have had a better chance to persist elsewhere and democratization would have been dealt a terrible blow. World War II might not even have happened in the fashion we know it; US intervention in WWI would have been less certain, given that the Zimmerman telegram would never have happened. The Mexico intervention would have had a different story, as would US colonial/anti-colonial enterprises generally. But if something like the Nazis risen up, the South would have been very sympathetic to their rhetoric. After all, holding "inferior races" as slaves was something they could come to terms with. Heck, Hitler was personally quite impressed with many aspects of Jim Crow, and in this alternate future something much more complete and sinister would have been in place. Would the CSA have declared war on the Free World (if the "Free World" would have come to exist at all) and joined the Nazis? Probably not. The USA would always have been stronger, and the threat of military conflict with their larger northern neighbor would probably have detered them. But the potential threat from the South would also have affected US politicians decision-making. That and the probability that the US would have had fewer or no overseas possessions would have meant that conflict with the Japanese was less a sure thing. Conflict with Germany become even more unlikely. And a world where the US had never joined WWII would be a dark place indeed. Best case, Soviet rule would have destroyed Europe's future, and Japanese rule would have turned Asia into a continent ruled by a racist military totalitarian regime. Worst case, the Nazis would have won.
You seem to forget that the entire western world was sympathetic with the Nazi rhetoric. Nations looked the other way because Germany had been crushed and forced to bear all the burden of WWI, people didn't care about Hitler's "superior race" propaganda because everyone hated the Jews, and "knew" that the Blacks, the Asian, the Gypsies, all of them were inferior. Hitler just took it further than everyone else.
Seems to me that you're falling into the same kind of rhetoric, where the Germans were the ultimate evil, the US saved the world, and the Confederates would have doomed everyone.
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On June 29 2015 07:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war. I don't disagree. I was just arguing that Germans weren't necessarily fighting for Nazism and Nazism didn't have a monopoly on distasteful racial views. You can honour your WW2 German veterans without invoking Nazism and the Nazi flag.
Not really. Almost all people here who had grand- or great-grandparents fighting in the war either don't talk about it or condemn it. The war shrine stuff that Japan has would be completely unthinkable. If you're honouring ww2 war veterans here there's a 99% chance that you're a far-right history revisionist.
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Canada11379 Posts
On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war.
I think that is impossible to know and useless to speculate upon. Not even all the fascist regimes joined the Nazis. Who even knows what a hypothetical Confederacy would have done. It would make for an interesting counterfactual historical novel though
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United States43350 Posts
On June 29 2015 07:25 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 07:00 KwarK wrote:On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 05:22 killa_robot wrote:
Kind of funny how people need big issues to happen to actually care about things. What the flag represents has never changed, yet only now people are like "I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER", to take it down, lol.
Seems like people just following whatever is popular at the time. People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise. Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war. I don't disagree. I was just arguing that Germans weren't necessarily fighting for Nazism and Nazism didn't have a monopoly on distasteful racial views. You can honour your WW2 German veterans without invoking Nazism and the Nazi flag. Not really. Almost all people here who had grand- or great-grandparents fighting in the war either don't talk about it or condemn it. The war shrine stuff that Japan has would be completely unthinkable. If you're honouring ww2 war veterans here there's a 99% chance that you're a far-right history revisionist.
That sucks. Your average German soldier was, I suspect, motivated by the exact same things as the Russian, British and American soldiers. If anything as members of the military they were more removed from Nazi society and politics than civilians.
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United States43350 Posts
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A senior U.S. official acknowledged Sunday that Iran nuclear talks will go past their June 30 target date, as Iran's foreign minister prepared to head home Sunday for consultations before returning to push for a breakthrough.
Asked about the chances for a deal, Federica Mogherini, the European Union's top diplomat, told reporters: "It's going to be tough ... but not impossible."
Iranian media said Mohammed Javad Zarif's trip was planned in advance. Still, the fact that he was leaving the talks so close to the Tuesday deadline reflected his need to get instructions on how to proceed on issues where the sides remain apart — among them how much access Tehran should give to U.N. experts monitoring his country's compliance to any deal.
The United States insists on more intrusive access than Iran is ready to give. With these and other disputes still unresolved the likelihood that the Tuesday target deadline for an Iran nuclear deal could slip was increasingly growing even before the U.S. confirmation.
U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry met in Vienna for their third encounter since Saturday. German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius are also in Vienna, and their Russian and British counterparts were to join later. China was sending a deputy foreign minister in a building diplomatic effort to wrap up the negotiations.
Source
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On June 29 2015 09:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 07:25 Nyxisto wrote:On June 29 2015 07:00 KwarK wrote:On June 29 2015 04:43 Yoav wrote:On June 29 2015 03:57 KwarK wrote:On June 28 2015 08:12 Paljas wrote:On June 28 2015 08:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 28 2015 07:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 28 2015 07:43 killa_robot wrote:On June 28 2015 06:11 GreenHorizons wrote:
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People have been talking about it for decades, it was just finally too loud to ignore. Also because of all the attention, the person might not get the book thrown at them like they might have otherwise.
Doesn't change the fact that people are overacting here. I agree the flag should be removed from government properties (not sure why it was allowed to begin with), but people are blowing things way out of proportion. Some crazy guy spouts racist crap and shoots up a church, and suddenly the confederate flag is too racist to fly anymore? It shouldn't have been flying to begin with, but that's the sort of connection that was made? How was the flag even brought up? Did the crazy guy have some connection with one? Not sure if it can be simply explained to someone from another country? Yes he did have a connection. + Show Spoiler +There's more if you look. It's not "suddenly too racist", suddenly the racists aren't powerful enough to keep flying it. Not everyone who likes the flag is racist though. Yes racists do adhere to it as a symbol, and therefore it is a problem, but a lot of people also identify with that flag and the Confederacy because that's the side that their ancestors fought for. My ancestors fought for Hitler. Maybe some peole shouldn't admire their ancestors I dunno, vast majority of Germans fought for Germany. Also most soldiers in that war were colossal racists. You can still honour the dead although there is a cutoff when you're Japanese and honouring war criminals. There's a difference between "honoring dead" (or empathizing with soldiers in a shitty situation) and flying the flag of a wicked cause that decent people may have gotten caught up in though family or national loyalty. Would it honor the German war dead to fly the Nazi flag? No, it would dishonor them by celebrating the evil that caused their suffering and death. The same is true of the Confederates. And let's be real, if the Confederacy had lasted to the 1940s, it wouldn't have been on the right side of that war. I don't disagree. I was just arguing that Germans weren't necessarily fighting for Nazism and Nazism didn't have a monopoly on distasteful racial views. You can honour your WW2 German veterans without invoking Nazism and the Nazi flag. Not really. Almost all people here who had grand- or great-grandparents fighting in the war either don't talk about it or condemn it. The war shrine stuff that Japan has would be completely unthinkable. If you're honouring ww2 war veterans here there's a 99% chance that you're a far-right history revisionist. That sucks. Your average German soldier was, I suspect, motivated by the exact same things as the Russian, British and American soldiers. If anything as members of the military they were more removed from Nazi society and politics than civilians.
Idk, I'm not comfortable with shifting the guilt onto the leadership. I mean there will always be fanatic racists or rabid segregationists. To be guilty you need to be actually conscious about what is wrong, and I assume the average Nazi leader was about as aware of his wrongdoings as a rabid dog.
It's pretty much only the 'moderates' who can make a difference. If you're 'just doing your duty' but you're aware that what you're doing is wrong at that moment you become guilty. So I don't really think you can grant the average soldier or civilian an absolution.
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war veterans and their heroic past still work as a part of propaganda to freshen nationalistic feelings when they are honored by states themselves with parades, official holidays etc. what a smoothly working social engineering, if one sees himself proud of being war veteran descendant, except his ancestors were homeland defenders only.
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On June 29 2015 15:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:https://www.chrischristie.com/ This introductory video is basically Comedy + Appeal to Emotion (mother had cancer). Nothing about politics.
Successful politicians know that the best way to run a presidential campaign is to take as few stances as possible while still maintaining a high degree of visibility.
Shame that's the way it is, but the average person cares a lot more about meaningless platitudes than platforms and positions
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On June 29 2015 15:20 Chocolate wrote:Successful politicians know that the best way to run a presidential campaign is to take as few stances as possible while still maintaining a high degree of visibility. Shame that's the way it is, but the average person cares a lot more about meaningless platitudes than platforms and positions
Eh that's true. There are certainly enough Republicans running that you can let other people fight amongst themselves as you lay low for a while.
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Special mention should be made for the ss in ww2 for being finatical nazies mostly drawn from non German nazies, knowing about the death camps and committing regular atrocities.
I wouldn't say good guys got shut out in ww2. The Pacific war was a good win for the good guys until the cold war fuck es it up. Japan did some real fucked up things.
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On June 29 2015 15:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:https://www.chrischristie.com/ This introductory video is basically Comedy + Appeal to Emotion (mother had cancer). Nothing about politics.
Christie's ship sailed four years ago. Scott Walker renders Christie obsolete. Walker has all of Christie's appeal (and then some) without any of the baggage.
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Yeah, like when Walker signed a bill into law that weakened Wisconsin's gun laws.......on the day of the Charleston Massacre. Does that count as a carry-on or should Walker just go ahead and check that?
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On June 30 2015 05:34 farvacola wrote:
Yeah, like when Walker signed a bill into law that weakened Wisconsin's gun laws.......on the day of the Charleston Massacre. Does that count as a carry-on or should Walker just go ahead and check that?
I don't really follow this. What should he have done? wait a day before signing the bill? gun laws had nothing to do with the Charleston Massacre.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wLw3G8D.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XAvAjYe.png)
