Could BW make a come back?

On October 03 2012 10:42 KazmA wrote:
Even with the rapid decline of BW as a professional sport, is it still possible for it rise up to were it once was before as an Esport? Many people have said that Sc2 pales in comparison to what BW was as a game and many pros are vocal about their favoritism towards BW over Sc2. Even with HOTS coming out and the development of SC2 is there enough support to eventually in some way rally around BW and start it up as a major Esport again? Obviously there are still professional leagues out there but nothing compared to what was in Korea. Personally I think that one day, if even for short period of time, BW could get back to the level it was at in the past. Maybe not in Korea but I do think that with a game as great as BW its just to much to ignore as a sport.

On October 03 2012 11:21 Elite00fm wrote:
It would be great if they made a BW2, like how they made dota2.

On October 03 2012 11:21 Elite00fm wrote:
It would be great if they made a BW2, like how they made dota2.

On October 03 2012 11:33 Pucca wrote:

They did, Thank MavericK he ported BW to StarCraft 2. You have StarCraft 2 mechanics with Brood War. Has its own ladder. Someone could possibly make a website that people upload their replays to, split out something similar to an ELO to get online ranking boards. So if people want to transition to BW2 there it is.

On October 03 2012 11:39 KazmA wrote:

Really? That actually sounds pretty interesting. Any info on how I could play that?

On October 03 2012 11:48 Pucca wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145316

I mean someone would have to make the website to analize replays to figure out the winner and such or brood war forum could become SC2BW for tournaments and such. Its just an idea if someone wants to pick it up It would make sense.

http://www.youtube.com/fearboxer <------------ Is a channel I made a while ago specifically for this purpose never took off.

On October 03 2012 12:03 Hesmyrr wrote:

Honestly I am actually more interested in how Starbow would turn out rather than SC2BW. If I want to play BW, I can play BW with minimum inconveninence. But then I never payed much attention to that mod so maybe it has more to offer than (arguably) graphics improvement.

On October 03 2012 10:59 Kal_rA wrote:
If I ever become a billionaire, I vow to sponsor the shit out of Korean BW.

On October 03 2012 12:06 Slardar wrote:


I will also take this vow.

On October 03 2012 12:03 Hesmyrr wrote:

Honestly I am actually more interested in how Starbow would turn out rather than SC2BW. If I want to play BW, I can play BW with minimum inconveninence. But then I never payed much attention to that mod so maybe it has more to offer than (arguably) graphics improvement.

On October 03 2012 12:22 Anomarad wrote:
BW2 needs to be standalone and not on Battle.net. Props to the mod creator but there will never be a "scene" for that.

On October 03 2012 12:48 Pucca wrote:

I'd challenge that. What was DOTA? A custom WC3 mod that became uber popular. If BW players are willing to take the leap away from this ancient game I think it could kick-off. Not to say this ancient game is good or anything but... Just a suggestion that people should consider.

On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote:
There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.

There is no point for a professional scene.

BW is old. Graphics are [very dated

StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static.

For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):

TvZ-
Safe 14cc on 2 player maps
a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!)
Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities
A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot)
7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it)
4 rax -> triple port wraith
2 rax acad allins
3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex)
2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra)
Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions)
12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame
Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options)
Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)

TvP-
Many different 3 base timings
Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD
12 Nexus variations and emphasis
1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus
New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters
Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)

Okay, this is actually pretty true; though I do feel the graphics are in many ways cleaner and possibly more visually appealing than SC2. Yes, I'm certainly in the minority on this.

On October 03 2012 13:10 jalstar wrote:
Short answer: "No, because BW doesn't sell hardware."

Long answer: In mainstream gaming's eyes, SC2 IS BW. To someone who wasn't a huge BW fan, SC2 is the same game with better graphics and a better interface. That's also the reason why a BW style or copy mod will never replace SC2, mainstream gamers already see SC2 as a copy of BW, the most common complaint in SC2 reviews was that it felt like the same game as BW. Also BW history is essentially SC2 history in most people's eyes with Koreans dominating both games.

You might mention the mechanics gap but compared to most games SC2 has an impossibly high skill cap, so most people won't get the point of BW having an even higher skill cap. If you don't believe all of this go read r/gaming or even r/starcraft sometimes, or talk to non-RTS gamers. In most people's minds, there aren't two games, there's one game called Starcraft, and they don't understand why you'd play the version from 1998.

On October 03 2012 13:16 L_Master wrote:


I'm sorry but I really disagree with everything in this paragraph. I'll break it down why.



Maybe point isn't the word you intended to use, but the "point" is quite obviously and is the same it has always been: entertainment.



Okay, this is actually pretty true; though I do feel the graphics are in many ways cleaner and possibly more visually appealing than SC2. Yes, I'm certainly in the minority on this.



Total Bullshit.

BW isn't even close to static, and I would think you would have known better. This is usually the kind of statement SC2 players that are completely ignorant of BW make. The game is in constant flux and new strategies, builds, and play-styles are continuously emerging. Some of it is due to changing maps, but much of it is due to just figuring out new and more effective ways to play in general. I think you said you haven't watched korean BW much so perhaps that's why you were thinking this.

To quote Ver here is a list of changes for ONE proleague season and ONE race (terran):



Ver didn't even post about TvT which has also seen many changes (such as mass wraith play).

On October 03 2012 11:33 Pucca wrote:

They did, Thank MavericK he ported BW to StarCraft 2. You have StarCraft 2 mechanics with Brood War. Has its own ladder. Someone could possibly make a website that people upload their replays to, split out something similar to an ELO to get online ranking boards. So if people want to transition to BW2 there it is.

On October 03 2012 12:05 Pucca wrote:

It changes the mechanics of brood war significantly Bio is viable now in TvP if you go vessel and tank. Starbow is good, however that needs to be balanced I believe, have not played it for that long but I'd have to assume. As well as players just wanted a direct port not a mixture of the games.

On October 03 2012 12:22 Anomarad wrote:
BW2 needs to be standalone and not on Battle.net. Props to the mod creator but there will never be a "scene" for that.

On October 03 2012 12:48 Pucca wrote:

I'd challenge that. What was DOTA? A custom WC3 mod that became uber popular. If BW players are willing to take the leap away from this ancient game I think it could kick-off. Not to say this ancient game is good or anything but... Just a suggestion that people should consider.

On October 03 2012 10:59 Kal_rA wrote:
If I ever become a billionaire, I vow to sponsor the shit out of Korean BW.

On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote:
There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [i[very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.

Also on a side of watching because I'm mainly a viewer not a player StarCraft 2 looks and sounds very nice. I love the casters for SC2, the production value of some events like the GSL GSTL is crazy good. There is big money rewards for winning tournaments for players as well. Would I rather practice for days / months to win 500$ from GC or would I rather win 50,000$ from one of the four seasons of IPL? Would I rather practice on a ladder that I auto-match makes me within 30 seconds or shorter or wait in a game lobby up to 20 minutes to get into a BW game.

I also like the ability to cheer US players back at home as well. I like the Korean Scene but when I see SeleCt or Machine play I always cheer for them. Like they represent the USA in some way. I guess you could argue that Bakuryu has the same feel on Germans, I don't know but I don't get this feeling from BW.

As for your point to relive Brood War. If you want to have it "rise up to were it once was before as an eSport" do something about it. Help out with the community and help organize tournaments help raise cash for tournaments if its something you want to see. Generally this is the point where people will look the other way and either continue to practice because they hope there will be another tournament or you get someone like Eywa- who goes around all of Europe getting sponsors for his huge Winter 2013 tournament. This is an extreme case, he is one person. I believe, if you had as devoted fans as he was Brood War might become once it was but I think there is a minimal possibility that this would happen.

EDIT: Also time zones are yucky to meet up with players for matches.

On October 03 2012 14:16 1a2a3a[MB] wrote:
China is the only hope right now is BW underground prime enjoy it now...

On October 03 2012 15:29 Le French wrote:

Same thoughts.
I wonder if TL has enough users who can volunteer some money and effort to make it happen?
Let's do this, at least for 1 tournament.

On October 03 2012 15:42 KazmA wrote:

That would be so sick. A TL community sponsored tournament for best of the remaining BW players. I feel like this should be a thing.

On October 03 2012 15:47 pebble444 wrote:


There is a number of events running elaready for top foeregners. Look at GC, and there is the swedish Broodwar initiative.

There is also going to be a Lan next spring with a prize pool of 18 000 dollars open to Foreigners.

On October 03 2012 13:10 jalstar wrote:
Short answer: "No, because BW doesn't sell hardware."

Long answer: In mainstream gaming's eyes, SC2 IS BW. To someone who wasn't a huge BW fan, SC2 is the same game with better graphics and a better interface. That's also the reason why a BW style or copy mod will never replace SC2, mainstream gamers already see SC2 as a copy of BW, the most common complaint in SC2 reviews was that it felt like the same game as BW. Also BW history is essentially SC2 history in most people's eyes with Koreans dominating both games.

You might mention the mechanics gap but compared to most games SC2 has an impossibly high skill cap, so most people won't get the point of BW having an even higher skill cap. If you don't believe all of this go read r/gaming or even r/starcraft sometimes, or talk to non-RTS gamers. In most people's minds, there aren't two games, there's one game called Starcraft, and they don't understand why you'd play the version from 1998.

On October 03 2012 16:37 Integra wrote:


A Word of advice from someone who has been around since 1993: All things comes to an end, even Starcraft. I suggest you get over it and make the choice of moving on or to call it quits altogether. It's less stressful and less painful that way.

On October 03 2012 15:53 KazmA wrote:

Yeah but a grass roots kind of tournament put together by TL community members would be pretty sweet.

On October 03 2012 16:37 Integra wrote:
I swear I saw this exact discussion with the exact arguments from the Warcraft2 players on Kali back in the old days when Starcraft 1 started to become more popular compared to Warcraft2 .

A Word of advice from someone who has been around since 1993: All things comes to an end, even Starcraft. I suggest you get over it and make the choice of moving on or to call it quits altogether. It's less stressful and less painful that way.

On October 03 2012 16:42 vOdToasT wrote:


Fuck that shit. I'm gonna host tournaments as soon as I finish my education and get a job.
StarCraft is too magnificent for me to let it wither away because of the stupid bullshit that killed it. In the meantime, I'm donating my share to the swedish brood war initiative.

On October 03 2012 16:42 vOdToasT wrote:


Fuck that shit. I'm gonna host tournaments as soon as I finish my education and get a job.
StarCraft is too magnificent for me to let it wither away because of the stupid bullshit that killed it. In the meantime, I'm donating my share to the swedish brood war initiative.

On October 03 2012 17:17 freakhill wrote:


You currently don't have the time to do it as a student, and you think you'll have the time to do it as an employee??
glhf
if you mean your words you should act them right now because, if you have not noticed yet, bw is not in its prime years anymore, who knows what will be left in a few years.

On October 03 2012 17:26 vOdToasT wrote:


I have time and energy, I don't have money. The reason I'm a student is to get a job... Without a job, I don't really have money, lol.

Luckily, I'm learning programming, including C++, the language StarCraft was written in. I'll be able to make a new version of the game with the ability to have high resolution sprites. It will also have built in anti hack, ladder, automatch, and will connect to one global server (that I will pay for, of course).

I will give a proposal for this idea to Blizzard and offer them free money. I know that they will reject it, because they want SC1 to die, so I'll release it illegally for all to download. I will of course advertise for it. I will advertise it like this:
"The greatest RTS of all time has returned"

I'm not kidding around, I'm going to do this in a few years when I'm a proffessional programmer. I wish I could do it now, but I have to learn C++ first...

On October 03 2012 17:32 freakhill wrote:


From a professional programmer standpoint. I don't want to curbstomp your enthusiasm, so I'll just wish you goodluck!
Here is an article about SC1 development.
http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/tough-times-on-the-road-to-starcraft

On October 03 2012 17:40 Potling wrote:
Your dedication is admirable, vOdToasT. I wish you luck.
You may be better off using a higher-level language than C++, eg. read chapters 10 to 14 of Hackers and Painters.

but fuck it leave the graphics alone, they are as they are and the bitter old (18) dude that is me, doesn't want want the the graphics different than from when I first played the game at an age of 3-4 years

On October 03 2012 17:51 Iplaythings wrote:
vOdToasT, that would truely be the best thing ever happend

Except for the graphic part, automatch, antihack etc is awesome but fuck it leave the graphics alone, they are as they are and the bitter old (18) dude that is me, doesn't want want the the graphics different than from when I first played the game at an age of 3-4 years

On October 03 2012 16:42 vOdToasT wrote:


Fuck that shit. I'm gonna host tournaments as soon as I finish my education and get a job.
StarCraft is too magnificent for me to let it wither away because of the stupid bullshit that killed it. In the meantime, I'm donating my share to the swedish brood war initiative.

On October 03 2012 20:32 sinigang wrote:
NO. Not one significant or relevant sponsor is putting money into it anymore. That's how business is.

On October 03 2012 16:57 Kal_rA wrote:

Like a.... T.. S... L... Fivee ? 0_0

On October 03 2012 21:25 Qikz wrote:


Eh? Viewer Numbers are going up and up as tournaments go on also the game is still (in some areas) massively evolving with metagame shifts and HoTS is coming out soon too.

I can see BW being big in China, but in Korea I think the "big" Broodwar scene is gone sadly. All the best Broodwar players have switched over to SC2 now and I can see SC2 going from strength to stregnth with Kespa and their help. It's sad not having a big professional league for Broodwar anymore in Korea, but it certainly won't die out.

Will it ever be as big as it once was? It's doubtful. Either way I'd rather both games found a way to succeed so everyone could enjoy watching the games they love, that's what's important. It shouldn't be some slagging match of one being better than the other all the time.

On October 03 2012 13:16 L_Master wrote:
Okay, this is actually pretty true; though I do feel the graphics are in many ways cleaner and possibly more visually appealing than SC2. Yes, I'm certainly in the minority on this.

On October 03 2012 22:34 NuKE[vZ] wrote:
No because Starcraft2 is bigger internationally which is appealing to sponsors in the Korean market. Not to mention Starcraft 2 isn't a bad game, and HoTS will be better than BW.

Play it for fun, but please come over to Sc2/HotS and help us grow it even bigger than ever.

On October 03 2012 22:30 Ribbon wrote:
I don't think it's possible if everyone's sitting around going someday and making wishes. The only ones who can save BW are us.

On October 03 2012 22:34 NuKE[vZ] wrote:
No because Starcraft2 is bigger internationally which is appealing to sponsors in the Korean market. Not to mention Starcraft 2 isn't a bad game, and HoTS will be better than BW.

Play it for fun, but please come over to Sc2/HotS and help us grow it even bigger than ever.

On October 03 2012 22:36 AleXoundOS wrote:
It's possible!

However I don't like the idea of touching game's code. It's already a great game!
+ Show Spoiler +



I agree with L_Master about the graphics. The graphics feel better, they are more beautiful and have better proportions.
+ Show Spoiler +

On October 03 2012 22:34 NuKE[vZ] wrote:
No because Starcraft2 is bigger internationally which is appealing to sponsors in the Korean market. Not to mention Starcraft 2 isn't a bad game, and HoTS will be better than BW.

Play it for fun, but please come over to Sc2/HotS and help us grow it even bigger than ever.

On October 03 2012 23:19 Cele wrote:


Please troll another thread.

On October 03 2012 10:59 Kal_rA wrote:
If I ever become a billionaire, I vow to sponsor the shit out of Korean BW.

On October 03 2012 23:12 Netto. wrote:


Sorry but as a top master sc2 player who never really played BW(except campaign and vs bots) I can tell you that because of hots I started to love BW and I began to train it hard (D+, gonna be C- soon !!!!). I could stand auto mine in sc2 or selecting infinity of units in one group, but when I saw in hots things like workers being automatically sent to the minerals on the beginning of the game I couldn't stop laughing. No, I will not join hots because of it's skill cap and possibility of being very good with 70 APM. For me being a good rts player is to have great decision making and be very good mechanically. I guess in lotv there will be option "auto decide result of the game" like when you come back tired after school or work you can just check this option and play ladder by doing nothing.

On October 03 2012 23:12 Netto. wrote:


Sorry but as a top master sc2 player who never really played BW(except campaign and vs bots) I can tell you that because of hots I started to love BW and I began to train it hard (D+, gonna be C- soon !!!!). I could stand auto mine in sc2 or selecting infinity of units in one group, but when I saw in hots things like workers being automatically sent to the minerals on the beginning of the game I couldn't stop laughing. No, I will not join hots because of it's skill cap and possibility of being very good with 70 APM. For me being a good rts player is to have great decision making and be very good mechanically. I guess in lotv there will be option "auto decide result of the game" like when you come back tired after school or work you can just check this option and play ladder by doing nothing.

On October 03 2012 11:05 greenelve wrote:
If SC2 has not the sucess to fill the spot that BW had and if SSL becomes so extreme popular that TV Channels want to have it...well....then BW could come back...

So if korean audience wants BW back, it could come back... BW popularity was fading, teams become less over the past years, from 12 to 7 + 1 unsponsored (Team 8)

On October 03 2012 23:53 pallad wrote:


What ? Everyone love but , but please stick to facts and dont lie. Sc2 in more popular game that BW. Look at tournaments , prize pools , number of teams.. how much people is playing Sc 2 , look at huge sponsors , team houses etc etc
How BW was bigger then this ? can you explain ?
And you still forgot Sc2 has only 2 years.. i can bet 100$ you dont even play BW when it was 2 years old.

Ps. Fun fact
There was no TeamLiquid when sc/bw was two years old..

On October 03 2012 23:53 pallad wrote:


What ? Everyone love but , but please stick to facts and dont lie. Sc2 in more popular game that BW. Look at tournaments , prize pools , number of teams.. how much people is playing Sc 2 , look at huge sponsors , team houses etc etc
How BW was bigger then this ? can you explain ?
And you still forgot Sc2 has only 2 years.. i can bet 100$ you dont even play BW when it was 2 years old.

Ps. Fun fact
There was no TeamLiquid when sc/bw was two years old..

On October 04 2012 00:00 arb wrote:

This hurt my soul to read. Broodwar had all of that in its peak, not to mention the fact its a better game in general.

On October 03 2012 23:53 pallad wrote:


What ? Everyone love but , but please stick to facts and dont lie. Sc2 in more popular game that BW. Look at tournaments , prize pools , number of teams.. how much people is playing Sc 2 , look at huge sponsors , team houses etc etc
How BW was bigger then this ? can you explain ?
And you still forgot Sc2 has only 2 years.. i can bet 100$ you dont even play BW when it was 2 years old.

Ps. Fun fact
There was no TeamLiquid when sc/bw was two years old..

On October 04 2012 00:06 Xeofreestyler wrote:


You're comparing father with son here boy. If Starcraft 2 was a standalone game with a different name, I could also bet 100$ you wouldn't be playing it. The sad reality is that our consumerist culture thrives on the new, shiny, updated things. So yeah, lots of people who knew about bw but thought it had 'old shitty gfx' will be better off with sc2, so of course its popular right now. There's tons of money being pumped into it for promotion too. Don't confuse actual success with forced success through $$$.

That's my view on it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if SC2 is still worth it in ten years like bw was. But until thats confirmed, I hope bw comes back.

On October 03 2012 23:44 reincremate wrote:

But with better features like "auto decide result of the game" players can focus on actual strategy, and not be so embroiled in superfluous things like mechanics and decision making. Plus the graphics alone will make LotV the greatest e-sport of all time. Because in the end the advancement of e-sports on an international level is all that really matters.

On October 04 2012 00:12 Netto. wrote:


I am not sure if you are trolling or talking seriously now. If for you the greatest e-sport game of all time is chosen by graphics alone then it wouldn't be LotV for sure. Thats the one thing. The second thing is that to be successfull you can't be good just at strategy and be bad mechanically and/or making bad decisions. This rule applies to every freakin sport. If you play soccer and you score a goal it is not only because you had great situation, it is because you managed to create great situation by good ball passes, good shot etc. The same goes on with SC. If you have your own sick strategy that kills everyone and suddenly someone do some gimmicky build to you, you will end up losing because you will not make proper decision due to your bad decision making as well as you will not be able to do those decisions quickly because your mechanics will not be used to improvising.

On October 03 2012 17:40 asiantraceur wrote:
Get a petition from people saying they'll buy the game from Blizzard...also try to update graphics? I know a lot of people are attracted to SC2 cuz of "good graphics"

On October 04 2012 00:16 ThePhan2m wrote:
I think it was time for BW to die. The game stopped to evolve in any major way the last years. Eventually SC2 will do the same after all the expansions, patches + 5 years and some other game will come along. The unique thing with BW was that it gave the raise of an unique game and the very idea of RTS e-sports. The next coming games will be figured out faster due to BW. BW was the ABC of RTS and will always be. Maybe it will be popular again when a peak in technology reaches and a renaissance of gaming starts.

On October 04 2012 00:18 hitthat wrote:


StarCraft 2 graphic is not good. It was outdated from a very start.

On October 04 2012 00:04 pallad wrote:


I loved bw very much , read my edit up . but we must stick to facts and keep going..This is epic game ! best rts ever made , but bw is to old and this is a fact , there is no way that game that old can be huge in 2012/13 , no way.. :/

On October 04 2012 00:22 pallad wrote:


Then show me better multiplayer looking rts game. Sc 2 looks really nice on ultra

On October 03 2012 16:19 Ribbon wrote:
Depends upon the level of your expectations. BW's not going to be able to sponser 12 teams of full-time players making decent wages off it again any time in the near future, but it definately has a lot of room to grow, and have at least a few sizable tournaments a year. And from there, try to have a few more the next year. We should stop worrying about recapturing the old magic, and just try to get bigger and bigger.

You know what would be a good idea, actually? Someone with a trusted reputation for hosting tournaments should do a Kickstarter for a BW tournament. That kind of thing seems to work really well for the small-but-dedicated fanbases out there, of which BW is one. There are a lot of people who want to sponsor BW, but don't have enough money to sponsor a tournament themselves. I bet we could Kickstart up a tournament of, say, $1000 pretty easily, actually. Maybe even $2,500. And then we have a show to put on, and all the BW fans can go out and hype it the way SC2 fans can get insufferable about their game. Get some fans, maybe sell some T-shirts or something. Do it again a few months later with a slightly larger fanbase, and smaller tournaments keeping the scene afloat.

On October 03 2012 20:13 Pucca wrote:
When I said BW being static I mean a majority of games are on FS. Lower tier gamers, which there is a lot of coverage now, are very similar to each other IMO. As for my DOTA comment I know Bnet 2.0 isn't hackable thats why I said some off site the players can upload to. But I don't think thread is going to get anywhere. It will just make ourselves feel sad. BW fighting.

On October 04 2012 00:12 Netto. wrote:


I am not sure if you are trolling or talking seriously now. If for you the greatest e-sport game of all time is chosen by graphics alone then it wouldn't be LotV for sure. Thats the one thing. The second thing is that to be successfull you can't be good just at strategy and be bad mechanically and/or making bad decisions. This rule applies to every freakin sport. If you play soccer and you score a goal it is not only because you had great situation, it is because you managed to create great situation by good ball passes, good shot etc. The same goes on with SC. If you have your own sick strategy that kills everyone and suddenly someone do some gimmicky build to you, you will end up losing because you will not make proper decision due to your bad decision making as well as you will not be able to do those decisions quickly because your mechanics will not be used to improvising.

On October 03 2012 21:08 J1.au wrote:
Well SC2 certainly isn't going to last, it has noticeably stagnated already. All that's next is a decline. In Korea I can definitely see some sort of professional competition returning, though never to the level it once was.

On October 03 2012 22:34 NuKE[vZ] wrote:
No because Starcraft2 is bigger internationally which is appealing to sponsors in the Korean market. Not to mention Starcraft 2 isn't a bad game, and HoTS will be better than BW.

Play it for fun, but please come over to Sc2/HotS and help us grow it even bigger than ever.

On October 04 2012 01:58 Valon wrote:
No it wont. Starcraft 2 is the future. Love it or hate it

On October 04 2012 01:23 thezanursic wrote:

Define better? Competitively it won't be.

On October 04 2012 00:21 Potling wrote:

Should chess die because it hasn't evolved in "any major way" the last years?

On October 04 2012 02:32 amazingxkcd wrote:

Hell, Chess still haven't been figured out. There are still more variations of openings that need to be thoroughly investigated

On October 04 2012 04:29 [F_]aths wrote:

BW is a game for 640x480 pixels with 256 colors. There is no widescreen support, too. I doubt that a very large audience accepts those image quality today.

On October 03 2012 13:34 vOdToasT wrote:


I'd like to add some more recent developments for Zerg.

ZvT:

Guardians have become standard
Queens have become standard
There is a new build that gives the best of both 3 hatch muta and 2 hatch muta. You get the speed of 2 hatch muta with the amount of mutas from 3 hatch muta.
The standard way of dealing with mech is now lurker defiler. This is new, and is much better than older methods.

ZvP:

Defensive styles that forego ultralisks. You take the map and hold it, harassing the Protoss army with defilers (using plague), massing lurkers all over the place, taking the middle expansion on fighting spirit, and even getting guardians. (As well as devourers if the Protoss still has corsairs)
The standard, most cookie cutter, vanilla, way to play ZvP is now completely different than it was 1 - 2 years ago (and at that time, it was completely different than it was 1 - 2 years before that). It no longer involves going 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra, with mass hydras + mutalisks to snipe templars. Now, it's more lurker ling hydra, with eventual defilers being added.

On October 04 2012 05:07 JieXian wrote:


What？My break from BW (only been watching the finals and analysi/comments) made me view that list as unbelievably surprising :O

Any videos are very much appreciated

On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote:
There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [i[very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.

Also on a side of watching because I'm mainly a viewer not a player StarCraft 2 looks and sounds very nice. I love the casters for SC2, the production value of some events like the GSL GSTL is crazy good. There is big money rewards for winning tournaments for players as well. Would I rather practice for days / months to win 500$ from GC or would I rather win 50,000$ from one of the four seasons of IPL? Would I rather practice on a ladder that I auto-match makes me within 30 seconds or shorter or wait in a game lobby up to 20 minutes to get into a BW game.

I also like the ability to cheer US players back at home as well. I like the Korean Scene but when I see SeleCt or Machine play I always cheer for them. Like they represent the USA in some way. I guess you could argue that Bakuryu has the same feel on Germans, I don't know but I don't get this feeling from BW.

As for your point to relive Brood War. If you want to have it "rise up to were it once was before as an eSport" do something about it. Help out with the community and help organize tournaments help raise cash for tournaments if its something you want to see. Generally this is the point where people will look the other way and either continue to practice because they hope there will be another tournament or you get someone like Eywa- who goes around all of Europe getting sponsors for his huge Winter 2013 tournament. This is an extreme case, he is one person. I believe, if you had as devoted fans as he was Brood War might become once it was but I think there is a minimal possibility that this would happen.

EDIT: Also time zones are yucky to meet up with players for matches.

On October 04 2012 08:36 Yorbon wrote:
Not to have a political view on this matter, but bw has this as well, only the other way round. For example siege tanks in siege mode does 70 damage, but not against all units. Also, dragoons, ghosts and hydras do different amounts of damage to different units. Maybe i don't recall correctly, but i thought ghosts (unupgraded) did 3 damage to buildings, while their 'official' damage was 10. Which is quite the difference. Imo there is only an arbitrary difference between bonus damage and malus (couldn't really think of another word in english) damage.

You may refer to a more counterbased structure in sc 2. Then that's a whole different case, and has nothing to do with what i said.

On October 03 2012 10:53 Funnytoss wrote:


Without sponsorship, it's quite difficult to get back up to the level it was before, by which I mean prestigious tournaments, full house teams sponsored by rich corporations, and TV broadcasts. You have to think about where sponsors are coming from. Basically, they do it because they feel that it's a worthy form of advertising. For tech companies like Intel, their incentive is to back the newest game possible, as that allows them to sell more product. Sponsoring an old game (technologically) like BW might help create more positive feelings towards the company, but might not translate directly into additional sales like SC2 would (being that you might need newer computer equipment to run it, while BW can run on a microwaved brick). The cost-benefit analysis is key, and unless you can think of a way to convince corporations that sponsoring BW makes sense, over something that's flashier and more popular at the moment among customers that might *buy* their new gadgets... it's unlikely.

That said, I've been getting back into the game over the past few days, and while I'm absolutely terrible at the moment (struggling to even hold D-rank, actually), it's still a lot of fun. I think we'll see BW continue on for quite some time, in forms like SOSPA or the amateur competitions we're seeing now.

On October 04 2012 08:41 GGzerG wrote:
Maybe the StarCraft : Pheonix game that Blizzard is working on will be a BW remake, one can dream.

On October 04 2012 06:57 Emon_ wrote:
Honestly, if we wanted we could make BW a viable online tournament game. All it would take is management, contributors and financial backing. The tournaments are already strong both korean and foreigner. We just need to polish the edges and it will be fine. Sonic SL is looking great - if we could get an english caster on this along with an observer that knows how to pace the game (There's a reason we don't watch every game from the first person view). This is our best hope for reviving BW.

Foreigner tournaments are abundant, as is the money being spread around. What's missing is management and marketing. A new blog with frequent updates about the scene (several times a day) with both results, analysis and trivia would do wonders for the scene. What we see now is an unfocused scatter of threads with good intentions, high ambitions but it always fails to build momentum. Remember when the korean pros dressed up as if to go on dates for the group selection? Didn't have much to do with the game but it's one of those stand-out moments in my mind that helped get to know the gamers as young men with ambitions and goals beside gaming.

While on the subject. Female supporters need to be attracted to any scene. SC2 is miserable because it fails horribly in this regard. BW had fangirls both for players and teams cheering the players on and following the game with excitement. If Jaedong miss-micros his mutalisks and loses one carelessly - you can hear them gasping for air and shrieking with despair. As well as the joy that comes from a lurker-ling-defiler attack from all sides on HBR. It gave male fans and progamers a sense of justification that they were being part of something unique and accepted. MKP and MVP are coming close to being regarded in this esteem. But no one else is coming close in SC2 and this is bad news. Cheerleaders from the big tournament sponsors are not gonna fix this situation. Having Khaldor and Incontrol geek out over details is entertaining, but it's nowhere near enough. It's just a sausage-fest right now. Appeal to female gamers will broaden the scene and introduce new people to the game. WoW does a great job at this and LoL too I believe. Another season of Liquibet won't cut it.

Lastly - a thing needs to be said about our champions. The gladiators that we cheer and scorn. They're investing a lot of time and should be justly compensated even if they don't take first place. This will encourage competition, instead of creating a domination by a few gamers while everyone else loses interest because life happens. Top 10 in a tournament should be evenly compensated with a slant toward #1 instead of the current 70% for 1st - 20% for 2nd and 10% for 3rd. Prize pools should be bigger and we should be donating more. 20$ a month from 100 fans will bring on great tournaments each month.

TL:DR - English cast Sonic SL and get observer without ADD, Make a new BW blog that's updated daily with results, interviews and trivia, find a way to get girls interested in BW, compensate all top tournament players not just winners.

On October 04 2012 12:34 Dontkillme wrote:



This. It will never return to its professional state like it did with the OSL, MSL, etc. But it will defenitly be a classic game everyone plays and remembers.

On October 04 2012 15:57 Black[CAT] wrote:
Only in the form of Brood War 2: Return of the Reaver.

On October 04 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:

I actually like the idea of donating small amounts and making regular tournaments with nice prizepool

community at its best !

On October 04 2012 11:36 vOdToasT wrote:
Certainly. Of course a good and interesting RTS game could be made. Blizzard just failed. There's nothing magical about BW that can't be replicated. It would even be possible to make a game that's even better than BW. But it hasn't been done, and probably won't ever be done.

On October 04 2012 20:11 Sawamura wrote:
@Darksoldier Valve wouldn't do a bw2 because they fear they will get copy right infringement from blizzard.

On October 04 2012 05:59 jackdavis486 wrote:
Perhaps they should just remake BW as close as they possible can just with modern graphics. Mind you I am not a programmer so idk about the technicalities behind this. But I would like to see it.

On October 04 2012 19:37 Darksoldierr wrote:
In this current age there is just no place for a game like BW. Korea was a miracle, Brood War was at the right place at the right time.

Look all the games getting released nowdays, each becoming more and more causal friendly, becouse the masses just figured it out, they can play games in their freetime, it dosen't make them bad people. A generation of gamers grown up to become an adults, whos played games in 80s, 90s. The world is changing.

On October 05 2012 00:23 Ribbon wrote:
This game sold 20,000+ copies day one ... This webcomic raised $2.5 million dollars in a month to get turned into an adventure game ... This RTS did nearly as well ..."The masses" have never been less relevant to the conversation. We're in the world of the niches, now.

On October 05 2012 00:40 andrea20 wrote:


$2.5 million cannot sustain Proleague for more than a season. Not only do you have to feed and shelter at least a hundred pros, but you have to pay for the venue, the TV time, and all the production crew. Citing random indie games hardly backs your argument. The masses are what feed any hobby.

SC2's GSL is still bleeding money, and most LAN events now charge high admission fees just to recoup the loss if the sponsors can't cover all of it.

On October 05 2012 02:26 Falling wrote:
The far simpler solution than kick starting a brand new game (which you kinda need some game developers that want to do this) would be if Blizzard released the source code so that BW could be modded. Overhaul the graphics (better resolution not change the actual style) and update the multiplayer connections so you don't need to do all this port forward nonsense. I can't remember, but there's been a couple examples of where the modding community has been able to breathe new life into old games simply by updating the graphics and making it work on modern computers.

But I doubt Blizzard would ever release their game into the hands of modders.

edit.

Oh and in an ideal world it could be digitally distributed through things like Steam as well with easy links to iCCup, Garena, Fish etc. But that's really a pipe dream.

On October 05 2012 04:01 MrStorkie wrote:
Remember that E-sports is essentially a business.

Why would big corporations be interested in sponsoring a computer game tournament? It's only because they can advertise their products and us nerds who watch these computer game tournaments are their quintessential target audience.

if everyone stops watching sc2, and watches Bw instead then the answer to your question is Yes.

Is that likely? No.

On October 03 2012 11:26 Angra wrote:


That's honestly what I hoped SC2 was going to be, before it was released. But instead they decided to make a completely different game with only the same outside appearance.

On October 05 2012 00:40 andrea20 wrote:


$2.5 million cannot sustain Proleague for more than a season. Not only do you have to feed and shelter at least a hundred pros, but you have to pay for the venue, the TV time, and all the production crew. Citing random indie games hardly backs your argument. The masses are what feed any hobby.

SC2's GSL is still bleeding money, and most LAN events now charge high admission fees just to recoup the loss if the sponsors can't cover all of it.

On October 05 2012 12:56 BadAssJ wrote:
I do support BW in its entirety but put these threads to rest. Sometimes letting go is the best way to go because then it can have a legacy. BW is forever the immortal game but these BW revival threads just make it harder and harder to get past the inevitable. BW will always have a place in my heart and it will remain resting in my heart rather than a constant thought that hinders my heart.

On October 05 2012 13:43 vOdToasT wrote:


If you actually loved BW, you'd be playing it.

On October 05 2012 13:55 white_horse wrote:


Not necessarily no. The power of BW lies in the fact that it can attract non-BW players to spectate because of its friendly-to-watch graphics and easy-to-comprehend onscreen battles.

what if they did a dota2 esque bw. attempt to preserve the game entirely with the exception of updated graphics and matchmaking/community.

On October 05 2012 14:30 white_horse wrote:
so whats your point? The only way to love BW is to play it? lol? I stopped playing BW a long time ago and I love it.

On October 05 2012 00:40 andrea20 wrote:


$2.5 million cannot sustain Proleague for more than a season. Not only do you have to feed and shelter at least a hundred pros, but you have to pay for the venue, the TV time, and all the production crew. Citing random indie games hardly backs your argument. The masses are what feed any hobby.

On October 05 2012 02:26 Falling wrote:
But I doubt Blizzard would ever release their game into the hands of modders.

On October 05 2012 13:03 Sawamura wrote:
Telling people to move on means accepting inferior products that are being produced right now . It's like telling Counter strike player to move on to COD because its popular .Also It's like telling quake players to stop playing quake because it's a dead game . Seriously I won't move on just because something is popular right now and the next new shiny game pops up and everyone just hops on to the next hype .

On October 05 2012 14:53 hitthat wrote:



The worst thing the people who says that are in most cases those who believe that only possible option to "move on" is SC2

On October 05 2012 17:07 vOdToasT wrote:


20 * 10 = 200

That's a ZOTAC cup, man! 200$ a month! Someone organize this shit!

On October 05 2012 15:24 Darksoldierr wrote:


Well, show me another RTS game with proscene. With causal player base. With thousands of fans. There is/was BW and then Sc2. the whole frickin genre is freezed in one place. Noone tries to make a game to fight it out with Sc2. The RTS scene is much much smaller in playerbase numbers than ARTS base.

I heard EA trying to make some F2P MMO RTS game but i really have doubt towards that, and then what else?

There are always comments like "We should make a mod BW" "We should make BW2", i dont know how many of you are developers like myself, but lets just say, good luck making an RTS game out of thin air as good and deep as BW ( Look at Sc2, it didn't worked out that well ), as for modding, you have lot more chance there, since you have the fundamentals, but till i see a alpha gameplay video or just screenshots, its nothing but a dream