The only way you can see a resurgence is if there is a new generation of BW players. I'd like to count myself in that, but I just feel there aren't enough players. As someone said on TL months ago, it's the popularity that creates the pro scene, not the other way around. I mean I love SOSPA and C-OSL, but especially with SOSPA, what will happen if the players, like Mong and HiyA, decide to call it quits? Who will take after them? Gaming, no matter how you look at it, is mainly for kids. You have to have a new generation of kids that play BW.
i don't really see what you call coming back, it never left to be fair, i'm still playing it and watching cast. Pro scene is over, well it's fine to me, Pro scene is just the top of the iceberg.
On October 04 2012 00:16 ThePhan2m wrote: I think it was time for BW to die. The game stopped to evolve in any major way the last years. Eventually SC2 will do the same after all the expansions, patches + 5 years and some other game will come along. The unique thing with BW was that it gave the raise of an unique game and the very idea of RTS e-sports. The next coming games will be figured out faster due to BW. BW was the ABC of RTS and will always be. Maybe it will be popular again when a peak in technology reaches and a renaissance of gaming starts.
Should chess die because it hasn't evolved in "any major way" the last years?
Hell, Chess still haven't been figured out. There are still more variations of openings that need to be thoroughly investigated
I wonder how many more times chess will evolve until it is truly "figured out".
On topic, is there anyway at all to watch the Chinese scene without having a stream too laggy to enjoy? I still think that they will probably be the future of professional Broodwar, for better or worse.
I think that the biggest problem is the amount of money that is left in the scene. SC2 tournaments just have much bigger prizes, which motivates pros to play it much more and motivates non-pros to play it much more in order to become a pro.
On October 03 2012 10:42 KazmA wrote: Even with the rapid decline of BW as a professional sport, is it still possible for it rise up to were it once was before as an Esport? Many people have said that Sc2 pales in comparison to what BW was as a game and many pros are vocal about their favoritism towards BW over Sc2. Even with HOTS coming out and the development of SC2 is there enough support to eventually in some way rally around BW and start it up as a major Esport again? Obviously there are still professional leagues out there but nothing compared to what was in Korea. Personally I think that one day, if even for short period of time, BW could get back to the level it was at in the past. Maybe not in Korea but I do think that with a game as great as BW its just to much to ignore as a sport.
BW is a game for 640x480 pixels with 256 colors. There is no widescreen support, too. I doubt that a very large audience accepts those image quality today.
On October 03 2012 10:42 KazmA wrote: Even with the rapid decline of BW as a professional sport, is it still possible for it rise up to were it once was before as an Esport? Many people have said that Sc2 pales in comparison to what BW was as a game and many pros are vocal about their favoritism towards BW over Sc2. Even with HOTS coming out and the development of SC2 is there enough support to eventually in some way rally around BW and start it up as a major Esport again? Obviously there are still professional leagues out there but nothing compared to what was in Korea. Personally I think that one day, if even for short period of time, BW could get back to the level it was at in the past. Maybe not in Korea but I do think that with a game as great as BW its just to much to ignore as a sport.
BW is a game for 640x480 pixels with 256 colors. There is no widescreen support, too. I doubt that a very large audience accepts those image quality today.
It's possible to expand viewable area (without stretching). For ex. see how Sonic does it but in both directions keeping original aspect ratio. + Show Spoiler +
however he stretches the resulting image to 16 : 9 when streaming
On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote: There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.
I'm sorry but I really disagree with everything in this paragraph. I'll break it down why.
There is no point for a professional scene.
Maybe point isn't the word you intended to use, but the "point" is quite obviously and is the same it has always been: entertainment.
BW is old. Graphics are [very dated
Okay, this is actually pretty true; though I do feel the graphics are in many ways cleaner and possibly more visually appealing than SC2. Yes, I'm certainly in the minority on this.
StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static.
Total Bullshit.
BW isn't even close to static, and I would think you would have known better. This is usually the kind of statement SC2 players that are completely ignorant of BW make. The game is in constant flux and new strategies, builds, and play-styles are continuously emerging. Some of it is due to changing maps, but much of it is due to just figuring out new and more effective ways to play in general. I think you said you haven't watched korean BW much so perhaps that's why you were thinking this.
To quote Ver here is a list of changes for ONE proleague season and ONE race (terran):
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
Ver didn't even post about TvT which has also seen many changes (such as mass wraith play).
I'd like to add some more recent developments for Zerg.
ZvT:
Guardians have become standard Queens have become standard There is a new build that gives the best of both 3 hatch muta and 2 hatch muta. You get the speed of 2 hatch muta with the amount of mutas from 3 hatch muta. The standard way of dealing with mech is now lurker defiler. This is new, and is much better than older methods.
ZvP:
Defensive styles that forego ultralisks. You take the map and hold it, harassing the Protoss army with defilers (using plague), massing lurkers all over the place, taking the middle expansion on fighting spirit, and even getting guardians. (As well as devourers if the Protoss still has corsairs) The standard, most cookie cutter, vanilla, way to play ZvP is now completely different than it was 1 - 2 years ago (and at that time, it was completely different than it was 1 - 2 years before that). It no longer involves going 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra, with mass hydras + mutalisks to snipe templars. Now, it's more lurker ling hydra, with eventual defilers being added.
What？My break from BW (only been watching the finals and analysi/comments) made me view that list as unbelievably surprising :O
On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote: There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.
I'm sorry but I really disagree with everything in this paragraph. I'll break it down why.
There is no point for a professional scene.
Maybe point isn't the word you intended to use, but the "point" is quite obviously and is the same it has always been: entertainment.
BW is old. Graphics are [very dated
Okay, this is actually pretty true; though I do feel the graphics are in many ways cleaner and possibly more visually appealing than SC2. Yes, I'm certainly in the minority on this.
StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static.
Total Bullshit.
BW isn't even close to static, and I would think you would have known better. This is usually the kind of statement SC2 players that are completely ignorant of BW make. The game is in constant flux and new strategies, builds, and play-styles are continuously emerging. Some of it is due to changing maps, but much of it is due to just figuring out new and more effective ways to play in general. I think you said you haven't watched korean BW much so perhaps that's why you were thinking this.
To quote Ver here is a list of changes for ONE proleague season and ONE race (terran):
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
Ver didn't even post about TvT which has also seen many changes (such as mass wraith play).
I'd like to add some more recent developments for Zerg.
ZvT:
Guardians have become standard Queens have become standard There is a new build that gives the best of both 3 hatch muta and 2 hatch muta. You get the speed of 2 hatch muta with the amount of mutas from 3 hatch muta. The standard way of dealing with mech is now lurker defiler. This is new, and is much better than older methods.
ZvP:
Defensive styles that forego ultralisks. You take the map and hold it, harassing the Protoss army with defilers (using plague), massing lurkers all over the place, taking the middle expansion on fighting spirit, and even getting guardians. (As well as devourers if the Protoss still has corsairs) The standard, most cookie cutter, vanilla, way to play ZvP is now completely different than it was 1 - 2 years ago (and at that time, it was completely different than it was 1 - 2 years before that). It no longer involves going 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra, with mass hydras + mutalisks to snipe templars. Now, it's more lurker ling hydra, with eventual defilers being added.
What？My break from BW (only been watching the finals and analysi/comments) made me view that list as unbelievably surprising :O
Any videos are very much appreciated
Search for replays of Jaedong on Teamliquid. Download the latest ones. Jaedong vs Fantasy, and Jaedong vs Speed.
Here's a game in which Terran gets mech, and Zerg eventually wins with lurkers and defilers.
I think realistically LoL is gonna end up taking over the majority of the esports scene cus so many ppl play it. Ive seen blonde girls and black guys playings LoL. It just seems like LoL appeals to a much much larger audience :/ But at least theres sonic proleague/starleague coming up!!
On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote: There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [i[very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.
Also on a side of watching because I'm mainly a viewer not a player StarCraft 2 looks and sounds very nice. I love the casters for SC2, the production value of some events like the GSL GSTL is crazy good. There is big money rewards for winning tournaments for players as well. Would I rather practice for days / months to win 500$ from GC or would I rather win 50,000$ from one of the four seasons of IPL? Would I rather practice on a ladder that I auto-match makes me within 30 seconds or shorter or wait in a game lobby up to 20 minutes to get into a BW game.
I also like the ability to cheer US players back at home as well. I like the Korean Scene but when I see SeleCt or Machine play I always cheer for them. Like they represent the USA in some way. I guess you could argue that Bakuryu has the same feel on Germans, I don't know but I don't get this feeling from BW.
As for your point to relive Brood War. If you want to have it "rise up to were it once was before as an eSport" do something about it. Help out with the community and help organize tournaments help raise cash for tournaments if its something you want to see. Generally this is the point where people will look the other way and either continue to practice because they hope there will be another tournament or you get someone like Eywa- who goes around all of Europe getting sponsors for his huge Winter 2013 tournament. This is an extreme case, he is one person. I believe, if you had as devoted fans as he was Brood War might become once it was but I think there is a minimal possibility that this would happen.
EDIT: Also time zones are yucky to meet up with players for matches.
[/i] i dont think bw is static haha theres alot of variability and a huge deciding factor in any battle decided by how well the player micros which makes the game exciting. SC2's whole "this attack will do +XX Damage bonus to these unit" and the really really advanced ai's on the units kinda makes SC2 feel...static
Perhaps they should just remake BW as close as they possible can just with modern graphics. Mind you I am not a programmer so idk about the technicalities behind this. But I would like to see it.
Honestly, if we wanted we could make BW a viable online tournament game. All it would take is management, contributors and financial backing. The tournaments are already strong both korean and foreigner. We just need to polish the edges and it will be fine. Sonic SL is looking great - if we could get an english caster on this along with an observer that knows how to pace the game (There's a reason we don't watch every game from the first person view). This is our best hope for reviving BW.
Foreigner tournaments are abundant, as is the money being spread around. What's missing is management and marketing. A new blog with frequent updates about the scene (several times a day) with both results, analysis and trivia would do wonders for the scene. What we see now is an unfocused scatter of threads with good intentions, high ambitions but it always fails to build momentum. Remember when the korean pros dressed up as if to go on dates for the group selection? Didn't have much to do with the game but it's one of those stand-out moments in my mind that helped get to know the gamers as young men with ambitions and goals beside gaming.
While on the subject. Female supporters need to be attracted to any scene. SC2 is miserable because it fails horribly in this regard. BW had fangirls both for players and teams cheering the players on and following the game with excitement. If Jaedong miss-micros his mutalisks and loses one carelessly - you can hear them gasping for air and shrieking with despair. As well as the joy that comes from a lurker-ling-defiler attack from all sides on HBR. It gave male fans and progamers a sense of justification that they were being part of something unique and accepted. MKP and MVP are coming close to being regarded in this esteem. But no one else is coming close in SC2 and this is bad news. Cheerleaders from the big tournament sponsors are not gonna fix this situation. Having Khaldor and Incontrol geek out over details is entertaining, but it's nowhere near enough. It's just a sausage-fest right now. Appeal to female gamers will broaden the scene and introduce new people to the game. WoW does a great job at this and LoL too I believe. Another season of Liquibet won't cut it.
Lastly - a thing needs to be said about our champions. The gladiators that we cheer and scorn. They're investing a lot of time and should be justly compensated even if they don't take first place. This will encourage competition, instead of creating a domination by a few gamers while everyone else loses interest because life happens. Top 10 in a tournament should be evenly compensated with a slant toward #1 instead of the current 70% for 1st - 20% for 2nd and 10% for 3rd. Prize pools should be bigger and we should be donating more. 20$ a month from 100 fans will bring on great tournaments each month. TL:DR - English cast Sonic SL and get observer without ADD, Make a new BW blog that's updated daily with results, interviews and trivia, find a way to get girls interested in BW, compensate all top tournament players not just winners.
On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote: There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [i[very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.
Also on a side of watching because I'm mainly a viewer not a player StarCraft 2 looks and sounds very nice. I love the casters for SC2, the production value of some events like the GSL GSTL is crazy good. There is big money rewards for winning tournaments for players as well. Would I rather practice for days / months to win 500$ from GC or would I rather win 50,000$ from one of the four seasons of IPL? Would I rather practice on a ladder that I auto-match makes me within 30 seconds or shorter or wait in a game lobby up to 20 minutes to get into a BW game.
I also like the ability to cheer US players back at home as well. I like the Korean Scene but when I see SeleCt or Machine play I always cheer for them. Like they represent the USA in some way. I guess you could argue that Bakuryu has the same feel on Germans, I don't know but I don't get this feeling from BW.
As for your point to relive Brood War. If you want to have it "rise up to were it once was before as an eSport" do something about it. Help out with the community and help organize tournaments help raise cash for tournaments if its something you want to see. Generally this is the point where people will look the other way and either continue to practice because they hope there will be another tournament or you get someone like Eywa- who goes around all of Europe getting sponsors for his huge Winter 2013 tournament. This is an extreme case, he is one person. I believe, if you had as devoted fans as he was Brood War might become once it was but I think there is a minimal possibility that this would happen.
EDIT: Also time zones are yucky to meet up with players for matches.
i dont think bw is static haha theres alot of variability and a huge deciding factor in any battle decided by how well the player micros which makes the game exciting. SC2's whole "this attack will do +XX Damage bonus to these unit" and the really really advanced ai's on the units kinda makes SC2 feel...static
[/i]Not to have a political view on this matter, but bw has this as well, only the other way round. For example siege tanks in siege mode does 70 damage, but not against all units. Also, dragoons, ghosts and hydras do different amounts of damage to different units. Maybe i don't recall correctly, but i thought ghosts (unupgraded) did 3 damage to buildings, while their 'official' damage was 10. Which is quite the difference. Imo there is only an arbitrary difference between bonus damage and malus (couldn't really think of another word in english) damage.
You may refer to a more counterbased structure in sc 2. Then that's a whole different case, and has nothing to do with what i said.
On October 04 2012 06:57 Emon_ wrote: TL:DR - English cast Sonic SL and get observer without ADD, Make a new BW blog that's updated daily with results, interviews and trivia, find a way to get girls interested in BW, compensate all top tournament players not just winners.
On October 03 2012 11:02 Pucca wrote: There is no point for a professional scene. BW is old. Graphics are [i[very dated. We can hope for the best but in reality I believe it won't happen. StarCraft 2 is more interesting in my opinion as it still evolving. Brood War I hate to say to be is static. You know people tend to execute the same build orders over and over again of course there is some deviation but not to the extent you get with the StarCraft 2.
Also on a side of watching because I'm mainly a viewer not a player StarCraft 2 looks and sounds very nice. I love the casters for SC2, the production value of some events like the GSL GSTL is crazy good. There is big money rewards for winning tournaments for players as well. Would I rather practice for days / months to win 500$ from GC or would I rather win 50,000$ from one of the four seasons of IPL? Would I rather practice on a ladder that I auto-match makes me within 30 seconds or shorter or wait in a game lobby up to 20 minutes to get into a BW game.
I also like the ability to cheer US players back at home as well. I like the Korean Scene but when I see SeleCt or Machine play I always cheer for them. Like they represent the USA in some way. I guess you could argue that Bakuryu has the same feel on Germans, I don't know but I don't get this feeling from BW.
As for your point to relive Brood War. If you want to have it "rise up to were it once was before as an eSport" do something about it. Help out with the community and help organize tournaments help raise cash for tournaments if its something you want to see. Generally this is the point where people will look the other way and either continue to practice because they hope there will be another tournament or you get someone like Eywa- who goes around all of Europe getting sponsors for his huge Winter 2013 tournament. This is an extreme case, he is one person. I believe, if you had as devoted fans as he was Brood War might become once it was but I think there is a minimal possibility that this would happen.
EDIT: Also time zones are yucky to meet up with players for matches.
i dont think bw is static haha theres alot of variability and a huge deciding factor in any battle decided by how well the player micros which makes the game exciting. SC2's whole "this attack will do +XX Damage bonus to these unit" and the really really advanced ai's on the units kinda makes SC2 feel...static
Not to have a political view on this matter, but bw has this as well, only the other way round. For example siege tanks in siege mode does 70 damage, but not against all units. Also, dragoons, ghosts and hydras do different amounts of damage to different units. Maybe i don't recall correctly, but i thought ghosts (unupgraded) did 3 damage to buildings, while their 'official' damage was 10. Which is quite the difference. Imo there is only an arbitrary difference between bonus damage and malus (couldn't really think of another word in english) damage.
You may refer to a more counterbased structure in sc 2. Then that's a whole different case, and has nothing to do with what i said.
[/i] i guess your right its just when i played sc2 it felt like a rock paper scissor battle everything hard countered something
EPT
