he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently" "i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of understanding between me and the manager" "i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole "i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry" "i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again" "i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening" "again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
The manager and Artist really need to give out some statements now... This has become a gigantic deal in Korean community right now, and many Korean pros are disgusted by this accusation.
On June 05 2012 14:19 SupLilSon wrote: Koreans have completely dominated every LAN event in over a year. They clearly do not need to stream cheat in order to win.
The core of the issue isn't about whether they need to or not, its if they do or do not
Spades has never proven his ability but Leenock has, what the fuck is wrong with people? He got to a finals in the gsl and in case people don't know, YOU CAN'T CHEAT THERE?!
Well, can't say I'm surprised. Of course, this is the only reasonable course of action that Choya could have taken. I don't think that Leenock is the type of guy to have any malicious intent to cheat. Still, I have a sinking feeling in my heart that there are indeed many hidden skeletons in the pro scene
Yeah, this could really splash back on Mirhi if this is all false. Such a flippant statement was actually a really serious accusation. To say it without any form of proof is really irresponsible and he should be held responsible if it was made up or if he was simply passing along some baseless rumor.
I believe Choya. I do remember Leenock had to defeat the rigorous open bracket and he simply had to beat so many people that tournament. Even if he was the type of guy to cheat, micromanaging other players would be insane on top of his already huge load.
I think the accuser of Leenock is being histrionic. For all he knew Leenock could've been telling his team mate their other team mate's results after he won/lost a match. The one good thing that came out of this is that MLG probably should make their open-bracket-playing-area a bit more secure. I remember Tyler talking about how whack it was on a SOTG. There would be people crowding around the players and kind of talking about the game and commentating while the games were going on.
EDIT: We in Human Resources like saying that we don't even want "the appearance of inpropriety." I think that's the real case here.
On June 05 2012 14:16 Daniel C wrote: Unfortunately, no Korean player or coach will ever admit to it (if it's true)...so it's just your word against mine.
No offense to Mirhi but his and Artist's words are heresay too. Artist was in fOu briefly before joining RGN so he's lived in maybe one major team house. When Spades went to Korea he lived in the GOM house. Don't see how major/all Korean pro houses stream cheat comes from this. Not to mention, Dragon was kicked out of SlayerS and WeRRa for previously stream cheating.
On June 05 2012 14:19 Haze.884 wrote: Well, RgN Manger and Artist really needs to come out and talk more detail. They really didn't expect their statement won't blow up or something?
fix your post in playxp translations (2. 프로게이머들의 맵핵은 의외로 많다 (온라인 토너먼트))... the manager didn't say koreans hack -_- what is wrong with you. stream cheating and map hacking are two different things
Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
The Leenock event seems impossible to prove and very vague to me.
The stream cheating seems to be more of an issue because Diamond and tgun have both said they've heard it's a big problem too from trusted sources. It's still just word vs. word, but there seems to be a lot of people saying it's pretty rampant.
From what Mirhi said it was mostly done in Korean vs. foreigner events (so FXO could still never win online events due to other Korean teams), and it was unclear if we're talking big tournaments or something like playhems. Either way, it's pretty shitty.
On June 05 2012 14:15 mrlie3 wrote: The manager and Artist really need to give out some statements now... This has become a gigantic deal in Korean community right now, and many Korean pros are disgusted by this accusation.
Only the manager stated that Leenock did whatever, not Artist. Artist just said that koreans stream cheated... Get the whole thing right before you write such comments please.
On June 05 2012 14:20 ImNightmare wrote: Spades has never proven his ability but Leenock has, what the fuck is wrong with people? He got to a finals in the gsl and in case people don't know, YOU CAN'T CHEAT THERE?!
Nobody accused Leenock of cheating for his own gain, Mihri (in the Spades thread) said Leenock was giving "hints" (?) to a teammate at MLG in Korean, presumably in the lower-tier games where people can just crowd around.
I really don't want to believe that to be true =( I love leenock.
On June 05 2012 14:21 boxturtle wrote: I believe Choya. I do remember Leenock had to defeat the rigorous open bracket and he simply had to beat so many people that tournament. Even if he was the type of guy to cheat, micromanaging other players would be insane on top of his already huge load.
I think the accuser of Leenock is being histrionic. For all he knew Leenock could've been telling his team mate their other team mate's results after he won/lost a match. The one good thing that came out of this is that MLG probably should make their open-bracket-playing-area a bit more secure. I remember Tyler talking about how whack it was on a SOTG. There would be people crowding around the players and kind of talking about the game and commentating while the games were going on.
Someone else in the Spades thread said that his Korean friend overheard Leenock and translated some of it for him. Apparently it was very, very general advice.
There is no fucking way Leenock did anything wrong at Providence. in-house stream cheating in online tournaments is another story, however.
Diamond is right in saying that needs to be looked into.
On June 05 2012 14:22 Roman666 wrote: Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
I GUARANTEE you that Slayers would NEVER do this. That's the one sc2 team that would 100% never allow this.
On June 05 2012 14:19 SupLilSon wrote: Koreans have completely dominated every LAN event in over a year. They clearly do not need to stream cheat in order to win.
The core of the issue isn't about whether they need to or not, its if they do or do not
I'm saying that coupled with korean's ethic around cheating (BW incident) makes me HIGHLY doubtful that this would be happening openly in Korean pro houses.
On June 05 2012 14:19 Haze.884 wrote: Well, RgN Manger and Artist really needs to come out and talk more detail. They really didn't expect their statement won't blow up or something?
fix your post in playxp translations (2. 프로게이머들의 맵핵은 의외로 많다 (온라인 토너먼트))... the manager didn't say koreans hack -_- what is wrong with you.
yeah, 프로게이머들의 맵핵은 의외로 많다 (온라인 토너먼트), that shit translates to "quite a lot of progamers use maphacks in online tournaments."
On June 05 2012 14:20 Takkara wrote: Yeah, this could really splash back on Mirhi if this is all false. Such a flippant statement was actually a really serious accusation. To say it without any form of proof is really irresponsible and he should be held responsible if it was made up or if he was simply passing along some baseless rumor.
This is why I'd be surprised if it was a lie or totally baseless. I can't imagine risking my career because I wanted to make a post about Spades on TL.
people don't understand that thea accusation against leenock wasn't that he cheated to win MLG providence, it was giving hints to other koreans while they played off stage, which entirely plausible given korean pride and how evidently important it is to them
On June 05 2012 14:18 Psychonian wrote: I feel like this could be bigger than the match fixing scandal back from BroodWar while Sc2 beta was out.
That seems unlikely. One almost ended a scene, this is just rumour and hear-say. And I can't see how it would amount to much even if isolated incidents were proven.
On June 05 2012 14:19 Haze.884 wrote: Well, RgN Manger and Artist really needs to come out and talk more detail. They really didn't expect their statement won't blow up or something?
fix your post in playxp translations (2. 프로게이머들의 맵핵은 의외로 많다 (온라인 토너먼트))... the manager didn't say koreans hack -_- what is wrong with you. stream cheating and map hacking are two different things
I think the implication though is pretty much the same.
On June 05 2012 14:24 IMNasty wrote: people don't understand that thea accusation against leenock wasn't that he cheated to win MLG providence, it was giving hints to other koreans while they played off stage, which entirely plausible given korean pride and how evidently important it is to them
Entirely plausible...right. Most Korean players have no huge connection to the western scene because of the language barrier and distance. Friends happen to help out friends and I still would really like to know to what exactly was supposedly said.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
If it was happening earlier why would it just stop?
Not that i'm accusing anyone of doing it, since theres obviously no evidence aside from mihri's word of artist's word at the moment.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
On June 05 2012 14:22 Roman666 wrote: Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
Boxer wouldn't condone that shit are you serious? he would bitch slap anyone who would cheat in the SlayerS house, lol. SlayerS is one of the teams that I know for sure has nothing to do with this, since Boxer and Cella would not allow that kind of shit, especially Boxer since he has a sense of pro-gaming and pride for the game, hard to explain but I know he wouldn't allow that.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
If it was happening earlier why would it just stop?
Not that i'm accusing anyone of doing it, since theres obviously no evidence aside from mihri's word of artist's word at the moment.
It occurred back then, I assume, because the Koreans had much less experience than the foreigners in SC2. This coupled with them feeling the need to win and sort of assert themselves in to the scene as still dominant could be major factors. Now that they are more adjusted to the game, they feel they no longer need that "crutch."
Another explanation could be that they had little respect for foreigners back then, so they felt they may as well take a free victory.
On June 05 2012 14:19 SupLilSon wrote: Koreans have completely dominated every LAN event in over a year. They clearly do not need to stream cheat in order to win.
The core of the issue isn't about whether they need to or not, its if they do or do not
I'm saying that coupled with korean's ethic around cheating (BW incident) makes me HIGHLY doubtful that this would be happening openly in Korean pro houses.
Back during KBK (2001, broodwar, online ladder where winners got invited to the offline KBK finals in Korea), nearly every single person who made it cheated in some form (and I mean Koreans and non-Koreans)... I'm not saying that there's no difference between 2001 and today, especially in a post-Savior world, but I think people sometimes forget that in the end most progamers are a bunch of kids, and kids tend to make questionable decisions.
I am honestly not implying I know people cheat, or that I think people cheat, simply that given the history of cheating in BW online tournaments or even just the end-of-season pro-ladder in WC3, even by high profile and otherwise considered honourable names, it wouldn't shock me.
KBK example is probably a bit different - everyone knew everyone else was cheating, so I doubt it was too difficult for someone to tell themselves that they had to win-trade too or there was no way to get in.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
If it was happening earlier why would it just stop?
Not that i'm accusing anyone of doing it, since theres obviously no evidence aside from mihri's word of artist's word at the moment.
I could see it still happening, but just speaking from personal experience... Like when I first came to Korea, if someone was playing an online tournament, the guy 2 seats away would be watching the stream, not directly cheating but kinda questionable you know? It's a small house, you wanna watch your team mate... but still, not ideal.
Nowadays it's way different, people playing some online teamleague you'd have everyone hushed standing around watching only his screen, if stream then on opposite row etc. I don't know, maybe this transformation didn't happen everywhere but it happened in so far as I could witness it.
On June 05 2012 14:20 ImNightmare wrote: Spades has never proven his ability but Leenock has, what the fuck is wrong with people? He got to a finals in the gsl and in case people don't know, YOU CAN'T CHEAT THERE?!
Don't know much details, but that's pretty much how I feel. Leenock has nothing he needs to prove to anyone.
On June 05 2012 14:19 Haze.884 wrote: Well, RgN Manger and Artist really needs to come out and talk more detail. They really didn't expect their statement won't blow up or something?
fix your post in playxp translations... the manager didn't say koreans hack -_- what is wrong with you.
lol??? I assume you are looking at this part of my thread
요약
1. 한국 프로팀하우스에서 방송 치팅의 의혹제시 2. 프로게이머들의 맵핵은 의외로 많다 (온라인 토너먼트) 3. 이동녕이 귀맵도와줬다는 의혹제시
....
2. says" amount of map hacks in progamers can be larger than you think" It does not specify Koreans hack. That thread was also about accusation at spades -_- what is wrong with you? 2. is a general statement that can be inferred from the whole thread. 1&3 says specifically it was suggested by the manager (의혹제시) Also, the manager regards as "cheating" that "occurs way more than people realise" can also include maphack.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
On June 05 2012 14:18 Psychonian wrote: I feel like this could be bigger than the match fixing scandal back from BroodWar while Sc2 beta was out.
Not sure if you're trolling or what but there is no way this will be bigger than that.
That's what I'm scared of. We honestly don't know what is going on. I hope it is just all a misunderstanding, and we can go back to happily gaming, but who knows how big of an issue this could be? I hope you are right, but some of the relevations today have really disquieted me.
The accusation against Leenock is NOT that he cheated himself ... but maybe talked to someone while that someone was playing at an MLG. Here is a post from the other thread by someone other than Mirhi who saw it:
On June 05 2012 12:39 Shiori wrote: Not really. I remember being at MLG and hearing Koreans chatting with each other at an MLG I attended. They'd stand behind someone and just remark on the game. My friend translated some of it for me and they were basically just giving very, very broad thoughts on the game. It wasn't back seat Sc2 like Mihai is making it seem. The Koreans are pros; they don't need Leenock telling them how to scout or something.
Whether or not you think it's "wrong" is up to you, ofc. I think it sets a bad precedence personally, because it's so hard to limit what's being said on the open floor.
The streamcheating is something else altogether ofc.
On June 05 2012 14:22 Roman666 wrote: Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
Boxer wouldn't condone that shit are you serious? he would bitch slap anyone who would cheat in the SlayerS house, lol. SlayerS is one of the teams that I know for sure has nothing to do with this, since Boxer and Cella would not allow that kind of shit, especially Boxer since he has a sense of pro-gaming and pride for the game, hard to explain but I know he wouldn't allow that.
I think you mistaken the word condone for condemn. Condone = accept. And I feel you man, Its like it does not require explanation in Boxer's case, he just can't do or accept that shit.
On June 05 2012 14:22 Roman666 wrote: Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
Boxer wouldn't condone that shit are you serious? he would bitch slap anyone who would cheat in the SlayerS house, lol. SlayerS is one of the teams that I know for sure has nothing to do with this, since Boxer and Cella would not allow that kind of shit, especially Boxer since he has a sense of pro-gaming and pride for the game, hard to explain but I know he wouldn't allow that.
Yeah... Boxer is iconic, and Cella went through trouble with the whole WeRRa incident, we dont have evidence, but on pride, I think the SlayerS members are safe (as well as all the other Korean teams imo)
On June 05 2012 14:19 Haze.884 wrote: Well, RgN Manger and Artist really needs to come out and talk more detail. They really didn't expect their statement won't blow up or something?
fix your post in playxp translations... the manager didn't say koreans hack -_- what is wrong with you.
lol??? I assume you are looking at this part of my thread
요약
1. 한국 프로팀하우스에서 방송 치팅의 의혹제시 2. 프로게이머들의 맵핵은 의외로 많다 (온라인 토너먼트) 3. 이동녕이 귀맵도와줬다는 의혹제시
....
2. says" amount of map hacks in progamers can be larger than you think" It does not specify Koreans hack. That thread was also about accusation at spades -_- what is wrong with you? 2. is a general statement that can be inferred from the whole thread. 1&3 says specifically it was suggested by the manager (의혹제시) Also, the manager regards as "cheating" that "occurs way more than people realise" can also include maphack.
2 doesn't say "can be larger than you think" it says "there are a lot, contrary to what you may think".
On June 05 2012 14:19 Diamond wrote: This needs to be looked into asap. That's all I have to say now with what I have gotten over the past two hours.
Am I the only one alarmed at this comment especially since its coming from a tournament organizer
And he should be concerned! This totally undermines every single online tournament. Part of what made SC2 grow to where it is today is SC2's daily online tournaments. Who wants to play in a tournament where stream cheating is so prevalent. Why even try. The only solution I could think of is a 5 minute delay on every online tournament stream.
On June 05 2012 14:18 Psychonian wrote: I feel like this could be bigger than the match fixing scandal back from BroodWar while Sc2 beta was out.
Not sure if you're trolling or what but there is no way this will be bigger than that.
That's what I'm scared of. We honestly don't know what is going on. I hope it is just all a misunderstanding, and we can go back to happily gaming, but who knows how big of an issue this could be? I hope you are right, but some of the relevations today have really disquieted me.
Indeed. In the last 24 hours, old, old memories have been aroused, someone who was once one of the top players has been accused of cheating, another high-level player has been accused of helping someone else cheat.. I could go on, but to save us all time, I won't.
On June 05 2012 14:22 Roman666 wrote: Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
Boxer wouldn't condone that shit are you serious? he would bitch slap anyone who would cheat in the SlayerS house, lol. SlayerS is one of the teams that I know for sure has nothing to do with this, since Boxer and Cella would not allow that kind of shit, especially Boxer since he has a sense of pro-gaming and pride for the game, hard to explain but I know he wouldn't allow that.
Boxer started crying for the heart and soul of pro-gaming- while being interviewed- when he was asked to comment about Savior's scandal.
I'm quite sure he wouldn't allow anything underhanded to take place in the SlayerS house. Surely you remember how swiftly he dealt with Coca (and that was relatively minor), and how betrayed and dishonored he felt.
That's not to say that no Korean pro-gamers would ever give in to the pressures of cheating, or that hacking could only be a foreigner problem, but we obviously need plenty of evidence before we start pointing fingers and throwing people under the bus.
I don't understand the accusation at all. Do people in MLG sit right next to each other while they are playing? I'm assuming they don't so what Leenock was running to people his friends were playing and then running back and telling them what they are doing? That sounds ridiculous to me...
On June 05 2012 14:19 Diamond wrote: This needs to be looked into asap. That's all I have to say now with what I have gotten over the past two hours.
Am I the only one alarmed at this comment especially since its coming from a tournament organizer
And he should be concerned! This totally undermines every single online tournament. Part of what made SC2 grow to where it is today is SC2's daily online tournaments. Who wants to play in a tournament where stream cheating is so prevalent. Why even try. The only solution I could think of is a 5 minute delay on every online tournament stream.
You don't need to watch a delayed stream if you have map hack son. I would say online tournaments are kinda pointless unless you have people carrying a camera over your shoulder to prove you aren't hacking
On June 05 2012 14:19 Diamond wrote: This needs to be looked into asap. That's all I have to say now with what I have gotten over the past two hours.
Am I the only one alarmed at this comment especially since its coming from a tournament organizer
And he should be concerned! This totally undermines every single online tournament. Part of what made SC2 grow to where it is today is SC2's daily online tournaments. Who wants to play in a tournament where stream cheating is so prevalent. Why even try. The only solution I could think of is a 5 minute delay on every online tournament stream.
It's such a simple fix.
a.) No people within X radius of player on MLG open floor when they are playing. b.) Delay streams.
On June 05 2012 14:37 JJH777 wrote: I don't understand the accusation at all. Do people in MLG sit right next to each other while they are playing? I'm assuming they don't so what Leenock was running to people his friends were playing and then running back and telling them what they are doing? That sounds ridiculous to me...
All they said was that they were standing in the back making some BROAD remarks on the game in general.
There was no running back and forth looking at other people's screens, holy shit. How do you make this stuff up?
Mmmmm.... Leenock wouldn't cheat. I refuse to believe it. I wasn't a huge fan of his before. Now I will be for I feel for him for being accused of such awful stuff
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
Well, now we know for sure oGs didn't cheat. On top of that, I think the EG guys would have something to say if slayers was running around and cheating (I have a hard time imagining Boxer encouraging cheating in the first place).
I don't know about you, but that's conclusive enough to for me to assume that it's not widespread at all, if existent. When Taeja was on slayers before liquid, he'd win a whole buttload of online stuff. He wouldn't be capable of doing that if people were hacking and cheating left and right.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
Yeah I honestly have no idea, it's not like I'm ever at other houses, especially not during tournaments --- I had just assumed that we were past that stage.
EDIT: One thing that kinda annoys me in this thread is how people are so quick to make judgements - in this case positive judgements - based on what you see outwards... Like, anytime any cheating is made public, there is literally 0 choice for any authority figure or really any person at all associated with the perpetrator: you must distance yourself and show that you do not condone of it.
Even if someone had been actively supporting it, that's what they would do.
I'm not in any way whatsoever implying that I know of anyone who did that, I am just saying that you can't look at public statements as evidence of anyones true feelings of..... almost anything. People say what they have to say, or do what they have to do, especially people with few enough morals to cheat in the first place.
On June 05 2012 14:37 JJH777 wrote: I don't understand the accusation at all. Do people in MLG sit right next to each other while they are playing? I'm assuming they don't so what Leenock was running to people his friends were playing and then running back and telling them what they are doing? That sounds ridiculous to me...
All they said was that they were standing in the back making some BROAD remarks on the game in general.
There was no running back and forth looking at other people's screens, holy shit. How do you make this stuff up?
I will just note that having anyone standing behind you making even "broad" comments about the game can be more often helpful than not depending on what was said.
TL needs to take immediate action as I believe it's responsible for letting this get out of control. TL is one of the largest esports media outlets and needs to act as such. Needless to say, this needs to be handled.
Whether or not these accusations are true, this ought to be private matters and not a public spotlight that makes a mockery of the esports scene. It makes everyone look bad, regardless of involvement in cheating.
On June 05 2012 14:22 Roman666 wrote: Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
Boxer wouldn't condone that shit are you serious? he would bitch slap anyone who would cheat in the SlayerS house, lol. SlayerS is one of the teams that I know for sure has nothing to do with this, since Boxer and Cella would not allow that kind of shit, especially Boxer since he has a sense of pro-gaming and pride for the game, hard to explain but I know he wouldn't allow that.
Boxer started crying for the heart and soul of pro-gaming- while being interviewed- when he was asked to comment about Savior's scandal.
I'm quite sure he wouldn't allow anything underhanded to take place in the SlayerS house. Surely you remember how swiftly he dealt with Coca (and that was relatively minor), and how betrayed and dishonored he felt.
That's not to say that no Korean pro-gamers would ever give in to the pressures of cheating, or that hacking could only be a foreigner problem, but we obviously need plenty of evidence before we start pointing fingers and throwing people under the bus.
Exactly my point. People like Boxer would never fall for this shit and would outright kick anyone who would get involved in stuff like that. That's why this is unthinkable for me, that this kind of shit would happen, even in other progamers houses.
On June 05 2012 14:37 JJH777 wrote: I don't understand the accusation at all. Do people in MLG sit right next to each other while they are playing? I'm assuming they don't so what Leenock was running to people his friends were playing and then running back and telling them what they are doing? That sounds ridiculous to me...
All they said was that they were standing in the back making some BROAD remarks on the game in general.
There was no running back and forth looking at other people's screens, holy shit. How do you make this stuff up?
Well like I said they didn't make sense to me. If this is what's going on then this is MLG's fault because from what I've seen in pcitures there are dozens of people surrounding the players whenever they play off-stage so this is impossible to avoid.
I also don't see what the issue is since I'm sure any top pros knows everything Leenock would be saying while watching a game in a scenario like that. Then I'm also sure it's extremely noisy plus headphones so how much can they really hear...?
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
Well, now we know for sure oGs didn't cheat. On top of that, I think the EG guys would have something to say if slayers was running around and cheating (I have a hard time imagining Boxer encouraging cheating in the first place).
I don't know about you, but that's conclusive enough to for me to assume that it's not widespread at all, if existent. When Taeja was on slayers before liquid, he'd win a whole buttload of online stuff. He wouldn't be capable of doing that if people were hacking and cheating left and right.
I do believe Jinro, but I'm reserving judgement until Diamond comes out with whatever he knows, etc.
On June 05 2012 14:22 Roman666 wrote: Though I always wondered if this stream cheating in Korean houses is possible, I can't actually believe that people like for instance Boxer would condone to this. Its just unbelievable for me, and I think if, and I'm streessing IF, this happens those must be very isolated incidents, not a wide-spread habit.
Boxer wouldn't condone that shit are you serious? he would bitch slap anyone who would cheat in the SlayerS house, lol. SlayerS is one of the teams that I know for sure has nothing to do with this, since Boxer and Cella would not allow that kind of shit, especially Boxer since he has a sense of pro-gaming and pride for the game, hard to explain but I know he wouldn't allow that.
I think you mistaken the word condone for condemn. Condone = accept. And I feel you man, Its like it does not require explanation in Boxer's case, he just can't do or accept that shit.
On June 05 2012 14:37 JJH777 wrote: I don't understand the accusation at all. Do people in MLG sit right next to each other while they are playing? I'm assuming they don't so what Leenock was running to people his friends were playing and then running back and telling them what they are doing? That sounds ridiculous to me...
All they said was that they were standing in the back making some BROAD remarks on the game in general.
There was no running back and forth looking at other people's screens, holy shit. How do you make this stuff up?
I will just note that having anyone standing behind you making even "broad" comments about the game can be more often helpful than not depending on what was said.
I was replying to the overexaggeration and general spread of misinformation, nothing else.
People who think that cheating doesn't occur in tournaments or pro houses are really naive. A good example of this happening years ago occured in WC3 years ago when Sky blatantly broke the rules and flat out cheated against GoStop at WCG, the biggest tournament of the year.
On June 05 2012 14:37 JJH777 wrote: I don't understand the accusation at all. Do people in MLG sit right next to each other while they are playing? I'm assuming they don't so what Leenock was running to people his friends were playing and then running back and telling them what they are doing? That sounds ridiculous to me...
All they said was that they were standing in the back making some BROAD remarks on the game in general.
There was no running back and forth looking at other people's screens, holy shit. How do you make this stuff up?
So if all what was said that there was some sharing of helpful information although he didn't actually see the screen of the other player it makes even less sense to even bring something like this up.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
Yeah I honestly have no idea, it's not like I'm ever at other houses, especially not during tournaments --- I had just assumed that we were past that stage.
Please tell me it never happened in the oGs house.
This could have been a rumor started by one Korean player. Foreign coaches and players, having no direct contact and insight to the Korean teams, would let these rumors fester and spread among each other
Hope it's all resolved and it turns out that nobody was cheating T_T Spades was already bad enough, but now we have these accusations as well.... ugh makes me sad
On June 05 2012 14:40 EienShinwa wrote: Spades. Saviour 2.0. Goodbye e-sports. Boxer would be ashamed...
Spades was a person who tried to be a pro, this is not a big deal. He should be crucified if he is found hacking yes, but this will not be a goodby e-sports. Savior was good at bw, like very very good for awhile, spades (no offense to him) has never been a top tier terran.
Now if a top player like drg/nestea/idra/stephano/mvp/mma/mc/etc/etc were caught cheating that would be a WAY bigger deal then spades. Not only have all those players won championships, but they are very popular and would be insane if one of them did. Spades who in bw hacked, who again was never a top tier foreigner or even that popular of a foreigner isn't a big deal.
On June 05 2012 14:42 McFeser wrote: This could have been a rumor started by one Korean player. Foreign coaches and players, having no direct contact and insight to the Korean teams, would let these rumors fester and spread among each other
Yeah this is entirely based on what Artist told Mirhi AFAIK. Not exactly solid.
If anything it is the flaw of the MLG tournament setup. When the playing area is that close to those that are viewing firsthand there is definite potential for a viewer to sneak in some help to the player. And I'm saying "viewer" because it can range from a Korean pro to an average bystander. I know many pros have complained about being too close to the people watching behind their backs.
On June 05 2012 14:40 BraneSC2 wrote: TL needs to take immediate action as I believe it's responsible for letting this get out of control. TL is one of the largest esports media outlets and needs to act as such. Needless to say, this needs to be handled.
Whether or not these accusations are true, this ought to be private matters and not a public spotlight that makes a mockery of the esports scene. It makes everyone look bad, regardless of involvement in cheating.
Wait what? Are you actually saying this is TL.nets fault? Da faq?
On June 05 2012 14:41 superstartran wrote: People who think that cheating doesn't occur in tournaments or pro houses are really naive. A good example of this happening years ago occured in WC3 years ago when Sky blatantly broke the rules and flat out cheated against GoStop at WCG, the biggest tournament of the year.
That was kinda like the Naniwa "watching replay" scandal.
For more information (for ppl interested, somewhat biased but lays out the "basics" of what happened decently well, there are all sorts of sides to this story and Sky was notably depressed, apologetic, and confused afterwards): http://www.gotfrag.com/war/story/35083/
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
Well, now we know for sure oGs didn't cheat. On top of that, I think the EG guys would have something to say if slayers was running around and cheating (I have a hard time imagining Boxer encouraging cheating in the first place).
I don't know about you, but that's conclusive enough to for me to assume that it's not widespread at all, if existent. When Taeja was on slayers before liquid, he'd win a whole buttload of online stuff. He wouldn't be capable of doing that if people were hacking and cheating left and right.
I do believe Jinro, but I'm reserving judgement until Diamond comes out with whatever he knows, etc.
I'm really not saying it didn't happen as I have no way of knowing - I'll only say I never saw oGs do it.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
EDIT: And to clarify what I mean by early, I mean REALLY, REALLY early, like... first month or two before things started getting professional.
I really hope this no longer happens -- but either way I hope delays on big tourney streams are at least 5-10 minutes or so... just knowing stream cheating might be a possibility detracts from the value of huge successes like MKP's recent all-kill vs ST, because it casts doubt on everyone, and someone like MKP who undoubtedly works harder than I can even imagine doesn't deserve anything but 100% trust that the results we see from him, and others, are candid.
Whenever somebody gets passionate or intense about something, it's natural to simply drop comments on what should be done and what to look out for. I'm pretty sure most people do that all the time when watching streams. It can be especially true if you're close up watching a friend in a live event like MLG.
That still doesn't excuse the flaw in the MLG set up, tournaments just have to be careful about such things.
I cant believe people are comparing this to saviOr rofl. even if nestea, mvp, and mkp all got caught hacking in an online tournament it wouldn't be close to savior and other people fixing matches for personal profit gains. they went to court and got community service and shit for that.
On June 05 2012 14:19 Haze.884 wrote: Well, RgN Manger and Artist really needs to come out and talk more detail. They really didn't expect their statement won't blow up or something?
fix your post in playxp translations... the manager didn't say koreans hack -_- what is wrong with you.
lol??? I assume you are looking at this part of my thread
요약
1. 한국 프로팀하우스에서 방송 치팅의 의혹제시 2. 프로게이머들의 맵핵은 의외로 많다 (온라인 토너먼트) 3. 이동녕이 귀맵도와줬다는 의혹제시
....
2. says" amount of map hacks in progamers can be larger than you think" It does not specify Koreans hack. That thread was also about accusation at spades -_- what is wrong with you? 2. is a general statement that can be inferred from the whole thread. 1&3 says specifically it was suggested by the manager (의혹제시) Also, the manager regards as "cheating" that "occurs way more than people realise" can also include maphack.
2 doesn't say "can be larger than you think" it says "there are a lot, contrary to what you may think".
Thank you for this. That is a very important distinction in translation.
People are getting a little too paranoid about this cheating thing. Yeah cheating sucks, and there is a lot of it, and we should get rid of it, but soon enough it's going to get out of control and turn into the next Salem.
These are Mirhi's two main statements, made in the Spades thread:
Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common."
From the 67th page of the "Spades hacks" TL thread.
EDIT: His Second Post:
"Time spent in multiple Korean prohouses. They both told me it was standard in Korea and even more wide spread there than it is here. The exact scenario was, I asked Artist if Koreans cheated, he shrugged and said "Yes. Korean standard." It was almost a joke, but we discussed it more later. There's a completely different view point of it there. I had to explain to Artist how badly America and Europe thought of it and stress he could never do it, it would be the end of his career if he did. It took me like 30 minutes to really make it clear how unacceptable it was to everyone, and to me personally."
He says that Spades stream cheating was a "carry-over" from "many Koreans" doing it in the Pro houses. This may be a reference to what Jinro said: it happened a lot early in SC2, and is not widespread now. Or it could mean that in Mirhi's knowledge or opinion (and the difference is significant), it still goes on.
He says Artist told him it was "Korean standard," again implying that it is/was widespread. What we don't know is when these conversations took place.
Mirhi states without equivocation several times, but without reference to a time period, that stream cheating and ghosting in online tournaments among Koreans in Pro houses is (or, was, or, hopefully, his information is inaccurate) a frequent occurrence. If true, the impact this would have on online tournaments could be pretty detrimental.
These allegations are very serious and need to be investigated.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
Well, now we know for sure oGs didn't cheat. On top of that, I think the EG guys would have something to say if slayers was running around and cheating (I have a hard time imagining Boxer encouraging cheating in the first place).
I don't know about you, but that's conclusive enough to for me to assume that it's not widespread at all, if existent. When Taeja was on slayers before liquid, he'd win a whole buttload of online stuff. He wouldn't be capable of doing that if people were hacking and cheating left and right.
I do believe Jinro, but I'm reserving judgement until Diamond comes out with whatever he knows, etc.
I'm really not saying it didn't happen as I have no way of knowing - I'll only say I never saw oGs do it.
On June 05 2012 14:51 Corrosive wrote: I cant believe people are comparing this to saviOr rofl. even if nestea, mvp, and mkp all got caught hacking in an online tournament it wouldn't be close to savior and other people fixing matches for personal profit gains. they went to court and got community service and shit for that.
Just off topic, but I don't think anymore ex bw pros would cheat. The punishment for savior and the rest was harsh, nestea mvp and mkp all have backgrounds in bw and I am sure they know what it means to cheat.
On June 05 2012 14:51 Corrosive wrote: I cant believe people are comparing this to saviOr rofl. even if nestea, mvp, and mkp all got caught hacking in an online tournament it wouldn't be close to savior and other people fixing matches for personal profit gains. they went to court and got community service and shit for that.
Just off topic, but I don't think anymore ex bw pros would cheat. The punishment for savior and the rest was harsh, nestea mvp and mkp all have backgrounds in bw and I am sure they know what it means to cheat.
yeah i understand i was just throwing out some big names for examples.
On June 05 2012 14:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: In early days of Korean SC2 I can promise you this happened, but now? I mean maybe, but I would kinda doubt it.
Thank you! Straight from the horse's mouth. Jinro's been in Korea for eternity and he's seen the ups (most successful foreigner runs in GSL) and downs (oGs disbanding). If he doubts it after being there, I don't think we have reason to believe a guy who talked to a guy who made a statement that sounded like a joke that cheating is some sort of widespread practice.
Jinro himself would tell you he hasn't been in all the other team houses, why are you taking his post as proof that this isn't going on? At this point, it's more evidence to the contrary but it's a bit ridiculous you're pointing to one person's post as proof as why we shouldn't pay attention to someone making a serious accusation
Well, now we know for sure oGs didn't cheat. On top of that, I think the EG guys would have something to say if slayers was running around and cheating (I have a hard time imagining Boxer encouraging cheating in the first place).
I don't know about you, but that's conclusive enough to for me to assume that it's not widespread at all, if existent. When Taeja was on slayers before liquid, he'd win a whole buttload of online stuff. He wouldn't be capable of doing that if people were hacking and cheating left and right.
I do believe Jinro, but I'm reserving judgement until Diamond comes out with whatever he knows, etc.
I'm really not saying it didn't happen as I have no way of knowing - I'll only say I never saw oGs do it.
Exactly. What you posted is all I take your word for, and nothing more. It's nice to see some assurance that it likely didn't happen in one of the team houses a lot of people cheer for the team of, but as we all know, we can't have a Jinro in every Korean team house
True or not this just begs to the question of why aren't streams for money tournaments being delayed to prevent this(and thus make this kind of accusations with 0 proof except for "trust me guyz I have contacts" void)?
Not going to comment on rumors and speculations without proof.But I must say that people(insiders or not) should not throw this kind of stuff in the forums unless they have absolute proof of this. This kind of behavior (and I am not talking about esports only) can ruin careers and lives
just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
This witchhunt community once again proving why it's such a joke. All the people saying this will be the end of esports...lmao.
Not that hard to imagine some people streamcheating in some tournaments, especially in one of the smaller houses with some relative no-names having their friends help them out. Solution? Some kind of stream delay of a couple minutes. Happens all the time in other pro games, especially MOBA-style ones to protect wardspots. No idea why this would be a shock to some people.
The Leenock thing is just a complete joke. You are going to crucify someone for giving broad general advice to one of his friends? Some of you people waving your pitchforks around wouldn't even be pleased if everyone at MLG was prohibited from speaking, and all people participating in online tournaments had to have their immediate surroundings recorded while they stream their own PoV.
Yes, but bringing it up doesn't contribute to the issue. It's simply poisoning the well: attacking another's credibility to weaken their arguments.
What Choya did a year ago was wrong, but here he is acting in his role as coach to defend his players, which is expected of him, and his indiscretions from a year ago have no impact on the issue today.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Yeah, this doesn't seem to hold much weight at all.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
Savior was more than "close to Bonjwa status".
Savior was the first one to be recognized as a Bonjwa.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
Yeah, but bigshot is the only thing that I think most of the people here would understand, the word bonjwa has been thrown around too much in the sc2 scene that people don't understand how difficult it is to become one. Saying spades is savior 2.0 is like saying..well its just bullshit.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
... His nick name was Ma Bonjwa. It's where the term came from.
I'll just say that I don't believe RGN in the slightest. And I even defended Spades... now they're admitting it... and trying to bring Koreans down with them? Look at how SlayerS completely crushed Coca for what he did, and now stream cheating is a Korean "standard"?
I'm not buying it at all, and this might seriously hamper Korean-foreign relations at a time where I thought things were getting really good...
On June 05 2012 14:54 windsupernova wrote: True or not this just begs to the question of why aren't streams for money tournaments being delayed to prevent this(and thus make this kind of accusations with 0 proof except for "trust me guyz I have contacts")?
Not going to comment on rumors and speculations without proof.But I must say that people(insiders or not) should not throw this kind of stuff in the forums unless they have absolute proof of this. This kind of behavior (and I am not talking about esports only) can ruin careers and lives
Look at the current season of NASL. Fans want the live games, etc. I think most other streams do have the delay or are based off replays. This is the way it should be. Which leads me to believe more that this really isn't a huge issue in Korea as people are wanting to make it be.
Look at what happened to Dragon after he got caught and admitted to doing it. Sure they have their Korean pride, but he even got tossed under the boss. The solution here is to just delay all streams or don't encourage them to be live.
The MLG topic really holds no water. If people think it does, well it can simply be fixed by changing their playing area. Eliminating something fun that was designed for the fans I'm sure. However if speculation is going to blow that up, its easy to replace.
On June 05 2012 14:20 ImNightmare wrote: Spades has never proven his ability but Leenock has, what the fuck is wrong with people? He got to a finals in the gsl and in case people don't know, YOU CAN'T CHEAT THERE?!
In this case, Leenock was being accused (casually, but perhaps carelessly) as helping others from over their shoulder during some LAN events. He has not, afaik, been accused of using cheating to his own personal advantage.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
Savior was more than "close to Bonjwa status".
Savior was the first one to be recognized as a Bonjwa.
I thought that was boxer? I wasn't aware of starcrafts existence until last year, but there's a good article here on TL all about SaviOr's rise and fall, super interesting look into this scenes past. here's the link if anyone wants it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
On June 05 2012 14:54 windsupernova wrote: True or not this just begs to the question of why aren't streams for money tournaments being delayed to prevent this(and thus make this kind of accusations with 0 proof except for "trust me guyz I have contacts")?
Yea gotta agree with this. The amount of brainspace this conundrum takes up for me is relatively small, but I've always been curious as to the lack of a good delay. In DOTA 2 it's a long built in delay on the spectator mode for a reason.
I guess the argument is so the casters can interact with chat but... who gives a fuck about that? Let individual players do that on their stream, needs to be a 1 or 2 minute delay on stuff involving money. That or everything cast from replays, which again for some reason people dislike.
Same thing applies to the MLG stations that people can crowd around and whisper about. I don't really think Leenock would do stupid shit like that, but whether he did or not, people like to talk about the game they're watching RIGHT NOW. They're not trying to give info to a player, but they might overhear anyway accidentally. Just kind of a dumb situation.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
Savior was more than "close to Bonjwa status".
Savior was the first one to be recognized as a Bonjwa.
I thought that was boxer? I wasn't aware of starcrafts existence until last year, but there's a good article here on TL all about SaviOr's rise and fall, super interesting look into this scenes past. here's the link if anyone wants it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
He was THE bonjwa (although it first came up with July), they applied the term to Boxer and OoV after.
On June 05 2012 14:19 SupLilSon wrote: Koreans have completely dominated every LAN event in over a year. They clearly do not need to stream cheat in order to win.
The core of the issue isn't about whether they need to or not, its if they do or do not
I'm saying that coupled with korean's ethic around cheating (BW incident) makes me HIGHLY doubtful that this would be happening openly in Korean pro houses.
Back during KBK (2001, broodwar, online ladder where winners got invited to the offline KBK finals in Korea), nearly every single person who made it cheated in some form (and I mean Koreans and non-Koreans)... I'm not saying that there's no difference between 2001 and today, especially in a post-Savior world, but I think people sometimes forget that in the end most progamers are a bunch of kids, and kids tend to make questionable decisions. .
lol u remember that I and my mate scream and elky cheated and went to korea.
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Hold on. So you say Artist's claims are based on few little personal experiences but your own claims are based off of your limited time spent in one gaming house? How much more limited could pro-gaming experiences get? I don't know, maybe you do have truly extensive pro-gaming experiences, but the content of your post is highly contradictory and rather ironic.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
uh, savior was THE bonjwa
You know even though he was a bastard for bringing down a whole scene. That sounds so awesome. THE bonjwa,
About that rps thing, I saw huk do it on stream once (he was next to the guy) and nobody gave a fuck. Double standards are so funny. Of course, if it's random people on ladder then it's different but then again who is really stupid enough to just leave a ladder game like that? I hate this community sometimes.
On June 05 2012 15:04 CuteZergling wrote: Hell of a week not to have L03 or ITG.
Maybe... This was all a part of their plan!
[Insert baseless conspiracy theory] EDIT: How was idra balance whining again? He pointed out choya did use "dirty" tactics on ladder at one point
protoss all-ins and shit. Idra just doesn't stop
No, Choya legitmately played rock paper scissors on ladder for points in the early days of SC2, he was banned from participating in either an Open Season or a GSTL season for it (or part of it).
Also completely off topic in every way but because you posted here, idra is there any particular reason you kept your post icon as the terran icons? I wondered that one day and never thought it was important enough to ask
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
how is that balance whining? i believe it was choya who was literally playing rock paper scissors vs ppl on ladder loser leaves. This was when ladder rank was being used to determine seeds or invites for some tournament/league.
This is ridiculous. Sometimes, TL is among the worst internet communities out there. I mean okay, Spades may have made a few suspiciously good decisions based on no info, but accusing Leenock of anything you can't prove is serious (the same, of course, goes for Spades - but there's more evidence in his case, true or not). I really hope this blows over soon - it'll hurt the scene if it doesn't.
Idra throwing his 2 cents in, but that's idra I guess. Artist was in what 1 or 2 korean houses? fou and reign? and spades was in reign, I actually don't see how in 2 cases is enough to blow things out of proportion like this,however esvdiamond was talking about some messages he received he never released anything though.I feel like more concrete proof is necessary.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
Naniwa? O.O
Naniwa is like the polar opposite of Idra, he blames himself for his losses instead of the game.
LOL, oh man you are funny. You are joking right? Naniwa blames everyone for his losses man, where have you been! hahaha, "I saw 10 koreans with nestea discussing strategies against me", "Zerg op", "I wasn't playing 100% because the money at red bull was not worth it", "He won only because he got lucky".
Oh and my favorite, "overlord speed cost me to lose". I would say he is like idra, the protoss version and with a record of not being sociable.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
how is that balance whining? i believe it was choya who was literally playing rock paper scissors vs ppl on ladder loser leaves. This was when ladder rank was being used to determine seeds or invites for some tournament/league.
Yes, this exactly. Have people really forgotten that Choya was banned for a GSL season because of playing rock/paper/scissors to decide ladder winner?
On June 05 2012 15:04 CuteZergling wrote: Hell of a week not to have L03 or ITG.
Maybe... This was all a part of their plan!
[Insert baseless conspiracy theory] EDIT: How was idra balance whining again? He pointed out choya did use "dirty" tactics on ladder at one point
protoss all-ins and shit. Idra just doesn't stop
No actually. The thing was, Choya LITERALLY played rock-paper-scissors immediately after the game started with his opponent, having the victor of that small game be the victor of the match. Choya only lost 2 points when he lost, but gained 20 for victory. So in effect it was abusing the ladder. And he was not the only one to do this. Although, do note that this was a fairly innocent ordeal, but it does take away some of the credit of Choya's statement
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Hold on. So you say Artist's claims are based on few little personal experiences but your own claims are based off of your limited time spent in one gaming house? How much more limited could pro-gaming experiences get? I don't know, maybe you do have truly extensive pro-gaming experiences, but the content of your post is highly contradictory and rather ironic.
I'm saying that while living in the prime house for 3 months. I didn't see any stream cheating or anything. Artist's personal experience could be limited to fou, actually it is only limited to fou since that was the only korean team he has been in.
This may be more of a case of fou cheating than all Koreans cheating.
On June 05 2012 14:47 SnowFantasy wrote: If you think this will be anywhere NEAR as big as the bw matchfixing scandal you are so wrong.
Savior destroyed BW because he is a big shot in it. Spades is...yeah, no way people will remember about this one month later
Saying SaviOr as a "big shot" is putting it lightly, he was the only zerg winning not only games but star league finals and the community (and south korea) was behind him 100%. Correct me if I'm wrong but he was pretty damn close to Bonjwa status I believe and the end result was detremental to the scene.
you can't really compare these two scandals, they're not even close in magnitude.
Savior was more than "close to Bonjwa status".
Savior was the first one to be recognized as a Bonjwa.
I thought that was boxer? I wasn't aware of starcrafts existence until last year, but there's a good article here on TL all about SaviOr's rise and fall, super interesting look into this scenes past. here's the link if anyone wants it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
They invented the word "Bonjwa" for Savior. Then they applied it to others that came before him who demonstrated a similar scope of utter domination as he did.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
how is that balance whining? i believe it was choya who was literally playing rock paper scissors vs ppl on ladder loser leaves. This was when ladder rank was being used to determine seeds or invites for some tournament/league.
Ok, I wasn't aware that that was what he was referencing. Seems pretty bad. I should take a break from this community.
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Hold on. So you say Artist's claims are based on few little personal experiences but your own claims are based off of your limited time spent in one gaming house? How much more limited could pro-gaming experiences get? I don't know, maybe you do have truly extensive pro-gaming experiences, but the content of your post is highly contradictory and rather ironic.
I'm saying that while living in the prime house for 3 months. I didn't see any stream cheating or anything. Artist's personal experience could be limited to fou, actually it is only limited to fou since that was the only korean team he has been in.
This may be more of a case of fou cheating than all Koreans cheating.
And yet we have Choya stating that they don't.
Interesting.
Diamond has made some candid statements on Reddit about being incredibly worried that this might be true and that people should actually investigate this closely. In any case, I hope it's not. Even if it's not, delay + no ppl crowding players at MLG during a game plz, just to be safe.
One other thing that you don't have that Artist does is simply that ... well, Artist's Korean, and he knows the culture far better than you do. If he had trouble, as Mihri mentioned, realizing how serious streamcheating was, then that may be indicative of a bigger problem in how things like Playhem are seen. Or Artist could just be a shady dude, idk, but keep that in mind.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
how is that balance whining? i believe it was choya who was literally playing rock paper scissors vs ppl on ladder loser leaves. This was when ladder rank was being used to determine seeds or invites for some tournament/league.
It was for GSL qualification, and he was subsequently banned from GSL for a few months or something.
On June 05 2012 15:11 Zealously wrote: This is ridiculous. Sometimes, TL is among the worst internet communities out there. I mean okay, Spades may have made a few suspiciously good decisions based on no info, but accusing Leenock of anything you can't prove is serious (the same, of course, goes for Spades - but there's more evidence in his case, true or not). I really hope this blows over soon - it'll hurt the scene if it doesn't.
Don't worry about it really. 10% of any community are just loud and thoughtless. People are just jumping all over these silly comments, if you read most threads without bias most people aren't saying much of consequence or committing to a side until more information comes out.
The parts of TL I see are fine. Just that 10% which exists everywhere. Try to ignore people talking out their ass. Scene has already seen a bit of this, and we're still going strong.
Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
no literally rock paper scissors
you did the same thing with cella
once for fun in a zvz when ladder points weren't used to determine seeding into a tournament
big difference.
spades only maphacked once in a minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything
is there a difference?
the point is it doesn't matter, it's just being a dick for the sake of being a dick
Well, yes, there is a big difference between jokingly playing 1 game of r/p/s on an individual ladder game, compared to doing it in a way that helps you qualify for the biggest SC tournament in the world... I mean, really? Whose being a dick for the sake of it?
On June 05 2012 15:16 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: what in the name of fuck is going on theese days, was bw so full of drama also?(cheating acussations/drama/...)
Yes.
The community was just a lot smaller so things didn't spiral out of control so quickly.
On June 05 2012 15:15 Klipsys wrote: Is savior better than flash? Is savior the best BW player of all time?
uh, why does that matter anyways? we'll never know
Same thing as why people wanna know if Kobe would beat MJ or Lebron would beat MJ. Its just fascinating to imagine how it would be like if 2 legends clash at the same time.
On June 05 2012 15:09 polyphonyEX wrote: About that rps thing, I saw huk do it on stream once (he was next to the guy) and nobody gave a fuck. Double standards are so funny. Of course, if it's random people on ladder then it's different but then again who is really stupid enough to just leave a ladder game like that? I hate this community sometimes.
There's a small difference.
Choya would be losing only 2 points per lost, but gaining 20 per win.
So grinding massive amount of games even if he was losing let's say 70% of them was still giving him points. So he basically asked every player to RPS against him on ladder.
Huk on the other hand (and other programmers) situation is a bit different. A lot of the time they're sitting so close to each other they can just see their opponent monitor, before there was a draw rule, they would often RPS just to get another opponent. It was meant to avoid silly game, not to gain ladder points, and wasn't done 50 times in a row.
Wow the term shit just got real is a bit of an understatement. I think its hard to actually get any proof of this stuff. Korea actually is a place where they do pride the competition so its hard to think of them cheating like that. What Naniwa said is semi relevant though he accused Koreans of leaking replays of his practice for GSL and that it was the whole Korean pride thing that was the reason behind it.
So its a hugely grey area right here where how exactly do we know what is going on in the Team houses while official matches are going on. If they are streamed live maybe there should be a 10 minute delay? If they are at an MLG they should have someone who walks around making sure someone isn't coaching during the games played offstage.
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Hold on. So you say Artist's claims are based on few little personal experiences but your own claims are based off of your limited time spent in one gaming house? How much more limited could pro-gaming experiences get? I don't know, maybe you do have truly extensive pro-gaming experiences, but the content of your post is highly contradictory and rather ironic.
I'm saying that while living in the prime house for 3 months. I didn't see any stream cheating or anything. Artist's personal experience could be limited to fou, actually it is only limited to fou since that was the only korean team he has been in.
This may be more of a case of fou cheating than all Koreans cheating.
Fair enough, that's definitely possible. I just took offense to your strong claim of "very untrue" and "this is very in accurate" in debunking Artist's claims on the grounds of limited experiences when you at best have the same exposure to other gaming houses.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
no literally rock paper scissors
you did the same thing with cella
once for fun in a zvz when ladder points weren't used to determine seeding into a tournament
big difference.
spades only maphacked once in a minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything
is there a difference?
the point is it doesn't matter, it's just being a dick for the sake of being a dick
Yes, there is a huge difference between a ladder game and a showmatch. Idra would have gained literally nothing from playing a legitimate ladder game of ZvZ and winning. Spades would have probably tripled his fame and notoriety from beating Lucifron.
On June 05 2012 15:16 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: what in the name of fuck is going on theese days, was bw so full of drama also?(cheating acussations/drama/...)
Yes.
The community was just a lot smaller so things didn't spiral out of control so quickly.
The scene was both a lot smaller and everyone who was anyone knew each other. At the same time, with a much smaller community, threads would move at a slower rate, and that allowed people to think a lot more about waht they were goign to say before things were written down.
On June 05 2012 15:11 Zealously wrote: This is ridiculous. Sometimes, TL is among the worst internet communities out there. I mean okay, Spades may have made a few suspiciously good decisions based on no info, but accusing Leenock of anything you can't prove is serious (the same, of course, goes for Spades - but there's more evidence in his case, true or not). I really hope this blows over soon - it'll hurt the scene if it doesn't.
You're quite spoiled then. TL is probably one of the most well mannered forums out there. The mods on here do a really good job removing the garbage posters.
The smoking gun was the fact that Spades never looked into the fog of war (a feature of the maphack) during a select number of games, while in normal games he would look into the fog of war multiple times. The evidence is quite definitive and there is no reason to be kushy in this situation. Cheaters should be pointed out.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
no literally rock paper scissors
you did the same thing with cella
once for fun in a zvz when ladder points weren't used to determine seeding into a tournament
big difference.
Who cares if it was only once, just shows Idras being a massive hypocrite about Choya. Based on this I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume he's probably maphacked 'only once' on ladder as well when ladder points didn't matter. Hell he probably stream cheated in EGMC as well, fuck knows why he still lost some of the time. In fact I bet he installed hacks on the GSL computers from a USB when he played there. No wonder his mechanics are so good, they're actually the mechanics of a computer program. Hasn't Idra always seemed somewhat emotionless, perhaps he is in fact a robot, with the hacks installed in his brain, engineered by EG to be the ultimate game-winning machine.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
no literally rock paper scissors
you did the same thing with cella
once for fun in a zvz when ladder points weren't used to determine seeding into a tournament
big difference.
spades only maphacked once in a minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything
is there a difference?
the point is it doesn't matter, it's just being a dick for the sake of being a dick
Well, yes, there is a big difference between jokingly playing 1 game of r/p/s on an individual ladder game, compared to doing it in a way that helps you qualify for the biggest SC tournament in the world... I mean, really? Whose being a dick for the sake of it?
I wish the people in the know would actually give up their sources. tgun says he's asked people about this and they've confirmed it. Diamond says various people have mentioned it to him and believe the rumors to be true. dde states that he's been subject to streamcheating before (though without mentioning who or whether or not that person was Korean already). Mirhi has clammed up but his Twitter indicates that he very much believes it to be true. Artist won't name names.
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
no literally rock paper scissors
you did the same thing with cella
once for fun in a zvz when ladder points weren't used to determine seeding into a tournament
big difference.
Who cares if it was only once, just shows Idras being a massive hypocrite about Choya. Based on this I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume he's probably maphacked 'only once' on ladder as well when ladder points didn't matter. Hell he probably stream cheated in EGMC as well, fuck knows why he still lost some of the time. In fact I bet he installed hacks on the GSL computers from a USB when he played there. No wonder his mechanics are so good, they're actually the mechanics of a computer program. Hasn't Idra always seemed somewhat emotionless, perhaps he is in fact a robot, with the hacks installed in his brain, engineered by EG to be the ultimate game-winning machine.
Just my two cents.
I can't tell if this post is trying to be sarcastic, a troll, or is just ... I don't know.
On June 05 2012 15:16 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote: what in the name of fuck is going on theese days, was bw so full of drama also?(cheating acussations/drama/...)
Yes.
The community was just a lot smaller so things didn't spiral out of control so quickly.
The scene was both a lot smaller and everyone who was anyone knew each other. At the same time, with a much smaller community, threads would move at a slower rate, and that allowed people to think a lot more about waht they were goign to say before things were written down.
Additionally, as the community grew in size (though it was never this large) the well known posters were already established, so it was easier to filter out the bad posters and focus on ones who mattered.
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Hold on. So you say Artist's claims are based on few little personal experiences but your own claims are based off of your limited time spent in one gaming house? How much more limited could pro-gaming experiences get? I don't know, maybe you do have truly extensive pro-gaming experiences, but the content of your post is highly contradictory and rather ironic.
I'm saying that while living in the prime house for 3 months. I didn't see any stream cheating or anything. Artist's personal experience could be limited to fou, actually it is only limited to fou since that was the only korean team he has been in.
This may be more of a case of fou cheating than all Koreans cheating.
Fair enough, that's definitely possible. I just took offense to your strong claim of "very untrue" and "this is very in accurate" in debunking Artist's claims on the grounds of limited experiences when you at best have the same exposure to other gaming houses.
We heard it from a second handed source. I'm beginning to doubt there is much inpropriety going on here at all. We know Prime doesn't do BS, we know oGs didn't pull BS, judging by the way IdrA, and InC view cheating and haven't said jack about slayers we can assume slayers doesn't pull BS either.
Who does pull BS then? The accusers made it seem widespread. Perhaps some Korean dude and his bro stream cheats or something, but right now everything is starting to look kosher again.
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Nobody missed the point of your comparison. Spades had a LOT to gain by winning that showmatch.
Oh god, this fucking community is eating each other.
I love that guy <3
Idra laying the fucking smackdown XFD
No, he's just balance whining like usual. Attention-getting and absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
no literally rock paper scissors
you did the same thing with cella
once for fun in a zvz when ladder points weren't used to determine seeding into a tournament
big difference.
Who cares if it was only once, just shows Idras being a massive hypocrite about Choya. Based on this I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume he's probably maphacked 'only once' on ladder as well when ladder points didn't matter. Hell he probably stream cheated in EGMC as well, fuck knows why he still lost some of the time. In fact I bet he installed hacks on the GSL computers from a USB when he played there. No wonder his mechanics are so good, they're actually the mechanics of a computer program. Hasn't Idra always seemed somewhat emotionless, perhaps he is in fact a robot, with the hacks installed in his brain, engineered by EG to be the ultimate game-winning machine.
Just my two cents.
I can't tell if this post is trying to be sarcastic, a troll, or is just ... I don't know.
Pretty sad indictment on posting standards in this community if you don't know if it's sarcastic or not.
On June 05 2012 15:23 babylon wrote: I wish the people in the know would actually give up their sources. tgun says he's asked people about this and they've confirmed it. Diamond says various people have mentioned it to him and believe the rumors to be true. dde states that he's been subject to streamcheating before (though without mentioning who or whether or not that person was Korean already). Mirhi has clammed up but his Twitter indicates that he very much believes it to be true. Artist won't name names.
Believing is for the church. I'd really wishas well those people just wouldn't be attention whoring around but put something real on the table.
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Nobody missed the point of your comparison. Spades had a LOT to gain by winning that showmatch.
Really?
- Lucifron still isn't a household name despite being ludicrously good - it's a showmatch put on by his team, thus inspiring him to practice for it when there was no prize money where Lucifron may not - there wasn't much hype around it and I doubt there was any kind of large audience tuning in
It'd be a big upset for sure if he won, but did he really have that much to gain? :S
On June 05 2012 15:23 babylon wrote: I wish the people in the know would actually give up their sources. tgun says he's asked people about this and they've confirmed it. Diamond says various people have mentioned it to him and believe the rumors to be true. dde states that he's been subject to streamcheating before (though without mentioning who or whether or not that person was Korean already). Mirhi has clammed up but his Twitter indicates that he very much believes it to be true. Artist won't name names.
Believing is for the church. I'd really wishas well those people just wouldn't be attention whoring around but put something real on the table.
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Hold on. So you say Artist's claims are based on few little personal experiences but your own claims are based off of your limited time spent in one gaming house? How much more limited could pro-gaming experiences get? I don't know, maybe you do have truly extensive pro-gaming experiences, but the content of your post is highly contradictory and rather ironic.
I'm saying that while living in the prime house for 3 months. I didn't see any stream cheating or anything. Artist's personal experience could be limited to fou, actually it is only limited to fou since that was the only korean team he has been in.
This may be more of a case of fou cheating than all Koreans cheating.
Fair enough, that's definitely possible. I just took offense to your strong claim of "very untrue" and "this is very in accurate" in debunking Artist's claims on the grounds of limited experiences when you at best have the same exposure to other gaming houses.
We heard it from a second handed source. I'm beginning to doubt there is much inpropriety going on here at all. We know Prime doesn't do BS, we know oGs didn't pull BS, judging by the way IdrA, and InC view cheating and haven't said jack about slayers we can assume slayers doesn't pull BS either.
Who does pull BS then? The accusers made it seem widespread. Perhaps some Korean dude and his bro stream cheats or something, but right now everything is starting to look kosher again.
Wonder if by widespread they mean semi-pros and amateurs on the ladder or something, not full-blown pros.
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Nobody missed the point of your comparison. Spades had a LOT to gain by winning that showmatch.
Really?
- Lucifron still isn't a household name despite being ludicrously good - it's a showmatch put on by his team, thus inspiring him to practice for it when there was no prize money where Lucifron may not - there wasn't much hype around it and I doubt there was any kind of large audience tuning in
It'd be a big upset for sure if he won, but did he really have that much to gain? :S
I addressed this point earlier in that thread, but YES, Spades had a LOT to gain by winning this showmatch. Lucifron is as close to being well-recognized as you can get, he's placed very well in tournaments before and Spades has not had any results to speak of recently.
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Nobody missed the point of your comparison. Spades had a LOT to gain by winning that showmatch.
Really?
- Lucifron still isn't a household name despite being ludicrously good - it's a showmatch put on by his team, thus inspiring him to practice for it when there was no prize money where Lucifron may not - there wasn't much hype around it and I doubt there was any kind of large audience tuning in
It'd be a big upset for sure if he won, but did he really have that much to gain? :S
In a real world environment? No. But considering the nature of this community and their tendency to overreact to singular events? Yes, he did.
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Nobody missed the point of your comparison. Spades had a LOT to gain by winning that showmatch.
Really?
- Lucifron still isn't a household name despite being ludicrously good - it's a showmatch put on by his team, thus inspiring him to practice for it when there was no prize money where Lucifron may not - there wasn't much hype around it and I doubt there was any kind of large audience tuning in
It'd be a big upset for sure if he won, but did he really have that much to gain? :S
In a real world environment? No. But considering the nature of this community and their tendency to overreact to singular events? Yes, he did.
Worth risking his entire career over? Well, apparently.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Nobody missed the point of your comparison. Spades had a LOT to gain by winning that showmatch.
Really?
- Lucifron still isn't a household name despite being ludicrously good - it's a showmatch put on by his team, thus inspiring him to practice for it when there was no prize money where Lucifron may not - there wasn't much hype around it and I doubt there was any kind of large audience tuning in
It'd be a big upset for sure if he won, but did he really have that much to gain? :S
I addressed this point earlier in that thread, but YES, Spades had a LOT to gain by winning this showmatch. Lucifron is as close to being well-recognized as you can get, he's placed very well in tournaments before and Spades has not had any results to speak of recently.
No. While Spades was hugely the underdog, had he won, it would have just been a major upset. Spades hasn't been churning out accomplishments/tourney wins, winning a showmatch wouldnt have mattered much (other than lots of pride, bragging rights, etc)
Anyone watched the old video of Artosis and Tasteless standing and talking behind Nony during Courage? Any Korean who didn't understand English would've thought that that was cheating. Looks like a similar situation to that of Leenock standing behind someone during MLG, or MKP sitting on the side of someone during an EU LAN event (I think it was Home Story Cup) and everyone was crying about MKP giving hint.
On June 05 2012 14:57 masterbreti wrote: just wanted to chime in. I think what artist said is very untrue or based on his few little personal experiences. I know that during my stay in prime house I didn't see a single instance of this. So this is very in accurate.
Hold on. So you say Artist's claims are based on few little personal experiences but your own claims are based off of your limited time spent in one gaming house? How much more limited could pro-gaming experiences get? I don't know, maybe you do have truly extensive pro-gaming experiences, but the content of your post is highly contradictory and rather ironic.
I'm saying that while living in the prime house for 3 months. I didn't see any stream cheating or anything. Artist's personal experience could be limited to fou, actually it is only limited to fou since that was the only korean team he has been in.
This may be more of a case of fou cheating than all Koreans cheating.
Fair enough, that's definitely possible. I just took offense to your strong claim of "very untrue" and "this is very in accurate" in debunking Artist's claims on the grounds of limited experiences when you at best have the same exposure to other gaming houses.
We heard it from a second handed source. I'm beginning to doubt there is much inpropriety going on here at all. We know Prime doesn't do BS, we know oGs didn't pull BS, judging by the way IdrA, and InC view cheating and haven't said jack about slayers we can assume slayers doesn't pull BS either.
Who does pull BS then? The accusers made it seem widespread. Perhaps some Korean dude and his bro stream cheats or something, but right now everything is starting to look kosher again.
Wonder if by widespread they mean semi-pros and amateurs on the ladder or something, not full-blown pros.
Yeah, seems pretty naive to imagine that some people aren't going to cheat in Playhems, maybe the Korean Weekly if that's not delayed, etc. I don't see how this is earthshattering to consider the possibility that some of the lesser names will try to get an unfair advantage. The question is why they wouldn't have a 5 minute delay on some of those things in the first place. However the idea that big names consistently cheat in every online event seems different than some people claiming they've seen unnamed people streamcheating.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
On June 05 2012 15:17 Probe1 wrote: Yes it absolutely does. If I cheat against Idra or Jinro in a show match do ya think people are going to start talking about me? Then maybe I get into a lesser known team? And all of a sudden I've beaten out a deserving player because I cheated in a "minor showmatch which doesn't seed into anything".
Really now.
You along with absolutely everyone completely missed the point of my comparison.
The entire community is full of double standards. Previous hackers like TT1 who have well and truly paid their dues are still looked down upon while people turn a blind eye to previous, more popular cheaters like Dragon. IdrA calls out Choya for something he did forever ago, and yet did IdrA not do the same thing? It was a single occurrence and didn't matter, sure. And yet, was it not the same for Spades, a minor showmatch put on by his team, when he doesn't cheat on ladder and obviously can't in tournaments, compared to a notorious consistent hacker? What I'm trying to say is, IdrA calling out Choya doesn't accomplish anything but making fanboys jizz over him being edgy, it's stupid to see it being anything close to relevant to the integrity of Choya's statements
Nobody missed the point of your comparison. Spades had a LOT to gain by winning that showmatch.
Really?
- Lucifron still isn't a household name despite being ludicrously good - it's a showmatch put on by his team, thus inspiring him to practice for it when there was no prize money where Lucifron may not - there wasn't much hype around it and I doubt there was any kind of large audience tuning in
It'd be a big upset for sure if he won, but did he really have that much to gain? :S
In a real world environment? No. But considering the nature of this community and their tendency to overreact to singular events? Yes, he did.
Worth risking his entire career over? Well, apparently.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
no hes just adding fuel to the fire, standard esports drama bomb protocol
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
Yeah, wish they'd either air it completely or have this discussion ... not on their Twitter for everyone to read.
On June 05 2012 14:20 ImNightmare wrote: Spades has never proven his ability but Leenock has, what the fuck is wrong with people? He got to a finals in the gsl and in case people don't know, YOU CAN'T CHEAT THERE?!
In a Interview IdrA and Jinro commented about how they could hear the korean casters from inside the booths and GOM cut the footage out when the published the interview on the VODS.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
Pretty much:
stuff like
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @GoSutgun to prevent rumor mongering I'm not telling anyone anything. Pro scene is 2 loose lipped. Maybe after I wrap my head around this.
You're not helping prevent rumour mongering when you spend the next couple of hours making vague statements about something on twitter that nobody has any way of verifying in the slightest.
---
Dunno what to think about all this, don't know how tight Mirhi is with Spades, but it rather feels like a comment to focus peoples attentions elsewhere from Spades hacking.
Will just wait and see what comes and instead enjoy some live Starcraft this morning =)
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
Pretty much:
stuff like
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @GoSutgun to prevent rumor mongering I'm not telling anyone anything. Pro scene is 2 loose lipped. Maybe after I wrap my head around this.
Isn't really helping prevent rumour mongering when you spend the next couple of hours making vague statements about something on twitter that nobody has any way of verifying in the slightest.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
Right now all Diamond is doing is exacerbating rumors by playing the drama queen. Saying, I know but I can't say, and then making such a big fucking deal out of it. If you can't say, then DONT make 20 tweets talking about it. Wait till there's official news. God dammit
I really don't even know what to say about such a ridiculous accusation against Leenock. I was the only FXO staff in attendance for Providence. I had access to the player area because of it and used it to watch matches. Koreans frequently talked to each other between games, and during warmups. I NEVER saw any of them talk to each other during an active match, I have never seen ANY player interact with someone during an active match. This is during both Columbus events, Anaheim, Providence etc.
If one of the Koreans was watching another during game, they were rarely the only one. The only times in which they were able to do this was late in the tournament, so there would be a crowd of Koreans around one match, or trying to watch two at once. There wasn't really the possibility of this happening because if player hangs out in the player area for too long during active matches and they aren't playing they get shown out by the referees within a few minutes. They start to relax this near the end when not every station is full, but if too many people start hanging out they tell all the non coaches/VIPs to leave. But again this only starts to happen near the end when there are always multiple people around, there is literally no time for a player to do such a thing. It's frankly not possible because of all the people watching.
The only time in which Leenock could have been over the shoulder and not been told to leave was during warmups. The Koreans often joke and talk during warmups though. Most likely someone saw them talking while they were getting ready, saw that there was a game on screen and though they were talking during a match.
The fact that this was even stated as a serious accusation is just stupid, because anyone who's been to MLG in the player areas knows all this.
On June 05 2012 14:20 ImNightmare wrote: Spades has never proven his ability but Leenock has, what the fuck is wrong with people? He got to a finals in the gsl and in case people don't know, YOU CAN'T CHEAT THERE?!
In a Interview IdrA and Jinro commented about how they could hear the korean casters from inside the booths and GOM cut the footage out when the published the interview on the VODS.
Just saying.
That was near release and they got better booths shortly after.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
He just loves creating drama, that's all. Especially "Korean dramas", if you know what I mean. No, not that type of Korean drama, but this type of Korean drama.
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
It's not that people are making you the enemy they are just worried that you are exaggerating. Take your time to collect what people have told you and then release it. Or keep it secret and feel guilty.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond OMG the amount of messages with suggestive evidence of the Korean stream cheating, I need a cig I'm actually heartbroken by this
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond By suggestive I mean pretty damning.....
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond You said you would report cheating right away - now you have evidence and are not reporting, I am confused. Please clarify.
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Reported to the correct parties is what I am trying to say. I am not a journalist.
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond I understand what you meant. I'm glad. I am curious - did you report to any media outlets?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron Nope. I am sure they will notice this.
[...]
Cameron Carson @famsytron @ESVDiamond If nothing happens, and this information is not published by anyone - will you notify the public?
Patrick Soulliere II @ESVDiamond @famsytron We will cross that bridge when that comes
Quick, everyone bug fams to see what he knows! (... no, don't, that was a joke.)
I like Diamond overall but when it comes to drama he ALWAYS does stuff like this, makes vague comments in topics (like his one on page one) and then never says anything else which furthers the drama and makes it worse. I wish people who "had information" would either say what they know or don't talk at all, vague comments with ellipses at the end just make the problem worse.
Yeah I like Diamond but he does this stuff like this and it bugs me a lot lol. FXOBoss always does this kind of stuff too so annoying, but I guess they like the exposition it gives them?
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
I'm not trying to "make you the enemy", I'm just saying that coming into the topic, showing that you have some sort of knowledge we don't have, and then keeping that knowledge tight-lipped and furthering the "drama" and causing more people to make assumptions based off of your empty vague statements isn't really the BEST thing you could do in your position. But frankly I guess I don't really care either way this is all hearsay and no one has proof and it'll just be discussed on TL all day until people forget.
Its clearly a conspiracy orcastrated by ROOTCatz to boost his stream numbers. Coincidence that this happens around the time ROOT is announced to reform? I THINK NOT!
Can't we just make it standard for all live, online-only events to have a delay in broadcast of a minute? We can't change the past, and if the cheating is really 'wide spread' as claimed, then ratting out Leenock (for example) ain't gonna change much, because it's part of their entire esports culture and methodology. It would be more productive to find ways to prevent it, than to dig up past examples.
On June 05 2012 14:20 ImNightmare wrote: Spades has never proven his ability but Leenock has, what the fuck is wrong with people? He got to a finals in the gsl and in case people don't know, YOU CAN'T CHEAT THERE?!
In a Interview IdrA and Jinro commented about how they could hear the korean casters from inside the booths and GOM cut the footage out when the published the interview on the VODS.
Just saying.
You know what starcraft scene (Korean or foreign) used to never use booth, right?
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
Just tell us something more, not random straws out of nothing. Write a long genuine post like all the others pro´s/important people have done, and tell us, what exactly happend were. If it´s true there´s no problem for you, if it´s not you should not come out with it in the first place. Or do you want to protect hackers? but then again why calling them out... Well i don´t know but just write something genuine and well thought out please.
On June 05 2012 15:56 treekiller wrote: Its clearly a conspiracy orcastrated by ROOTCatz to boost his stream numbers. Coincidence that this happens around the time ROOT is announced to reform? I THINK NOT!
Are you on a crusade to troll every single thread about this?
On June 05 2012 15:56 treekiller wrote: Its clearly a conspiracy orcastrated by ROOTCatz to boost his stream numbers. Coincidence that this happens around the time ROOT is announced to reform? I THINK NOT!
On June 05 2012 15:51 Raelcun wrote: I really don't even know what to say about such a ridiculous accusation against Leenock. I was the only FXO staff in attendance for Providence. I had access to the player area because of it and used it to watch matches. Koreans frequently talked to each other between games, and during warmups. I NEVER saw any of them talk to each other during an active match, I have never seen ANY player interact with someone during an active match. This is during both Columbus events, Anaheim, Providence etc.
If one of the Koreans was watching another during game, they were rarely the only one. The only times in which they were able to do this was late in the tournament, so there would be a crowd of Koreans around one match, or trying to watch two at once. There wasn't really the possibility of this happening because if player hangs out in the player area for too long during active matches and they aren't playing they get shown out by the referees within a few minutes. They start to relax this near the end when not every station is full, but if too many people start hanging out they tell all the non coaches/VIPs to leave. But again this only starts to happen near the end when there are always multiple people around, there is literally no time for a player to do such a thing. It's frankly not possible because of all the people watching.
The only time in which Leenock could have been over the shoulder and not been told to leave was during warmups. The Koreans often joke and talk during warmups though. Most likely someone saw them talking while they were getting ready, saw that there was a game on screen and though they were talking during a match.
The fact that this was even stated as a serious accusation is just stupid, because anyone who's been to MLG in the player areas knows all this.
Preach it. Leenock is no cheater. The ex-ReIGN manager isn't showing himself to exactly be a trustable source. I hope this shitstorm doesn't get out of control.
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
It's not that people are making you the enemy they are just worried that you are exaggerating. Take your time to collect what people have told you and then release it. Or keep it secret and feel guilty.
What makes you think I did not already do the first one?
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
Just tell us something more, not random straws out of nothing. Write a long genuine post like all the others pro´s/important people have done, and tell us, what exactly happend were. If it´s true there´s no problem for you, if it´s not you should not come out with it in the first place. Or do you want to protect hackers? but then again why calling them out... Well i don´t know but just write something genuine and well thought out please.
I don't owe the public shit, I am not a reporter or a journalist, and it's not involving my tournament which has rules in place to prevent the issues being discussed. This is not even about hacking.....
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
They aren't making you out to be the enemy... but they do have a valid point. You basically said to the twitter masses "I know something you don't knowwwwww"
When it relates to a subject as controversial as this... that's not exactly the best way to go about things. Either release the information you have, or keep quiet until you have compiled all of the proof and make a press release. No need to be a drama queen over twitter talking about crying and needing cigarettes because the evidence you have viewed is so depressing.
he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently" "i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of understanding between me and the manager" "i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole "i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry" "i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again" "i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening" "again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently" "i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of communication between me and the manager" "i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole "i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry" "i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again" "i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening" "again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
---------------------
From the Spades thread.
Also Diamond, you're the one who's doing this to yourself, and its not the first or second time. Either say it, or don't. Don't straddle the line and stir the pot. All that does is create unnecessary drama.
On June 05 2012 15:59 TearsOfTheSun wrote: oh no. its like the savior thing all over again!?
See Diamond, this is the result of your posts. People just keep assuming and magnifying things based on reading your post. Everyone knows that more publicity for ESV is always good, but it's too much.
he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently" "i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of communication between me and the manager" "i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole "i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry" "i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again" "i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening" "again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
---------------------
From the Spades thread.
Also Diamond, you're the one who's doing this to yourself, and its not the first or second time. Either say it, or don't. Don't straddle the line and stir the pot. All that does is create unnecessary drama.
i see you stole my post as i was about to c+p it here D:
he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently" "i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of understanding between me and the manager" "i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole "i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry" "i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again" "i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening" "again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
Sad thing is that people won't believe this anyways because LOLCONSPIRACY THEORIES.
Dunno, I just hate how it takes a comment to stir that much crap.
Well, now you have Diamond's Twitter posts about something big going down and you have Artist saying that it was just miscommunication between him and Mirhi. What a fun ride.
he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently" "i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of communication between me and the manager" "i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole "i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry" "i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again" "i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening" "again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
---------------------
From the Spades thread.
Also Diamond, you're the one who's doing this to yourself, and its not the first or second time. Either say it, or don't. Don't straddle the line and stir the pot. All that does is create unnecessary drama.
i see you stole my post as i was about to c+p it here D:
The drama over the last couple of months has gone from popcorn amusing, to depressing, to downright obnoxious. Is our taste for drama so refined that even the Spades thing is already stale?
he says "i didn't speak much english at that time and what i said might have been interpreted by the manager differently" "i've never said anything like this, and this probably resulted from the lack of understanding between me and the manager" "i apologize for what this event has caused to the sc2 community as a whole "i guess this stemmed from me, so all i can say at this point is i'm really sorry" "i will try to analyze the situation in a bit and will post once again" "i also need to talk to the former manager (referring to Mirhi here) and see what is happening" "again, i apologize for any inconvinience this may have caused"
Sad thing is that people won't believe this anyways because LOLCONSPIRACY THEORIES.
Dunno, I just hate how it takes a comment to stir that much crap.
To me personally probably the most hilarious part is that the author of the drama claims to not have foreseen the consequences at least according to his twitter.
On June 05 2012 16:06 babylon wrote: Well, now you have Diamond's Twitter posts about something big going down and you have Artist saying that it was just miscommunication between him and Mirhi. What a fun ride.
This is exactly why people are upset at Diamond. He exacerbated the situation without providing ANY concrete evidence, and led to so much unnecessary speculation. Why?
On June 05 2012 16:06 babylon wrote: Well, now you have Diamond's Twitter posts about something big going down and you have Artist saying that it was just miscommunication between him and Mirhi. What a fun ride.
Which is pretty reasonable. The two of them chatting without a translator when Artist barely speaks any English? A perfectly reliable source..
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
It's not that people are making you the enemy they are just worried that you are exaggerating. Take your time to collect what people have told you and then release it. Or keep it secret and feel guilty.
What makes you think I did not already do the first one?
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
Just tell us something more, not random straws out of nothing. Write a long genuine post like all the others pro´s/important people have done, and tell us, what exactly happend were. If it´s true there´s no problem for you, if it´s not you should not come out with it in the first place. Or do you want to protect hackers? but then again why calling them out... Well i don´t know but just write something genuine and well thought out please.
I don't owe the public shit, I am not a reporter or a journalist, and it's not involving my tournament which has rules in place to prevent the issues being discussed. This is not even about hacking.....
I guess I'll take back my post about "liking you overall"... You run a tournament and are a community figure and you post like this? Looks like Artist is recanting his statements, but some community figure said that this needs to be looked into based on "what he heard" so now people won't drop it. This is great.
It would probably be in TLs best interest if this thread gets closed soon before the shitstorm gets worse.
These threads seriously needs to be closed. The accusations being made are baseless are seriously detrimental. For the Spade situation, the best thing to do is to wait for Western Wolves to respond after they do their own inquiries.
"I posted my first clarification post. I'm sorry. I sincerely apologize for causing concern for the coaches, players and fans. I will post more after I make sense of the situation. I would be thankful if people retweeted this."
And the link goes to that post that others have translated.
On June 05 2012 15:51 Diamond wrote: Yes make me the enemy, that's the logical answer here.
It's not that people are making you the enemy they are just worried that you are exaggerating. Take your time to collect what people have told you and then release it. Or keep it secret and feel guilty.
What makes you think I did not already do the first one?
Then why are you wasting time talking to me ? :D See you tomorrow
On June 05 2012 16:13 babylon wrote: Oh great, HuK is joining in on the action now ... wish I could decipher his Twitter English.
HuK has been on a personal crusade against any tournaments being cast live since the beta. He thinks every event should have delay or be from replays. It was a sentiment shared by a lot of players at the time, but at the time viewers actually turned the streams off if it wasn't live. So it never happened, but now many of the major online tours cast from replays anyways. So it's not really too big of a deal, it's mostly showmatches and the smaller weekly tournaments that are cast live nowadays.
Why the fuck do people bother to perpetuate rumors and shit that has no concrete basis? If you can prove something 100% without a doubt, great, you win, but if you can't, just shut up and save the drama for private affairs.
On June 05 2012 16:13 babylon wrote: Oh great, HuK is joining in on the action now ... wish I could decipher his Twitter English.
HuK was pretty infamous for not playing in showmatches that weren't being casted off of replays or at least with a delay because he was afraid that his opponents would be watching (and why not back then, honor for something that was so small would be considered silly by many). He's also saying that although right now he doesn't need the money, back then when he was an aspiring progamer, that money was quite important to justify is choice in gaming over everything else.
On June 05 2012 16:13 babylon wrote: Oh great, HuK is joining in on the action now ... wish I could decipher his Twitter English.
HuK was pretty infamous for not playing in showmatches that weren't being casted off of replays or at least with a delay because he was afraid that his opponents would be watching (and why not back then, honor for something that was so small would be considered silly by many). He's also saying that although right now he doesn't need the money, back then when he was an aspiring progamer, that money was quite important to justify is choice in gaming over everything else.
Damn son, you are pro at translating. I'm impressed you got that from his word salad. o___o
I can't believe that some people are naive to think that nobody would ever stream cheat during online tournaments. I'm not talking about Koreans here I'm talking about anyone. The smaller tournament organizers make it ridiculously easy by having live broadcasting with no delays. All you need is another computer next to you and you can cheat all you want with no chance of ever being caught. Do you really think that no person who plays SC2 would ever be tempted to do this? The smaller online tournaments need to face reality and change the way they broadcast if they ever want to stop it because nobody will ever admit to it.
On June 05 2012 16:24 tomatriedes wrote: I can't believe that some people are naive to think that nobody would ever stream cheat during online tournaments. I'm not talking about Koreans here I'm talking about anyone. The tournament organizers make it ridiculously easy by having live broadcasting with no delays. All you need is another computer next to you and you can cheat all you want with no chance of ever being caught. Do you really think that no person who plays SC2 would ever be tempted to do this? Online tournaments need to face reality and change the way they broadcast if they ever want to stop it because nobody will ever admit to it.
Yup I agree 100%. Tournaments need to really step it up
On June 05 2012 16:24 tomatriedes wrote: I can't believe that some people are naive to think that nobody would ever stream cheat during online tournaments. I'm not talking about Koreans here I'm talking about anyone. The tournament organizers make it ridiculously easy by having live broadcasting with no delays. All you need is another computer next to you and you can cheat all you want with no chance of ever being caught. Do you really think that no person who plays SC2 would ever be tempted to do this? Online tournaments need to face reality and change the way they broadcast if they ever want to stop it because nobody will ever admit to it.
This. It would prevent things like this ever happening, regardless of whether they are at the moment or not.
On June 05 2012 16:24 tomatriedes wrote: I can't believe that some people are naive to think that nobody would ever stream cheat during online tournaments. I'm not talking about Koreans here I'm talking about anyone. The smaller tournament organizers make it ridiculously easy by having live broadcasting with no delays. All you need is another computer next to you and you can cheat all you want with no chance of ever being caught. Do you really think that no person who plays SC2 would ever be tempted to do this? The smaller online tournaments need to face reality and change the way they broadcast if they ever want to stop it because nobody will ever admit to it.
I can picture it now. Leenock steps off the plane for mlg and bam...100 reporters in his face and cameras flashing asking him to respond to these accusations....well maybe if esports was big enough this would happen.
On June 05 2012 16:07 Oiseaux wrote: The drama over the last couple of months has gone from popcorn amusing, to depressing, to downright obnoxious. Is our taste for drama so refined that even the Spades thing is already stale?
I think a lot of us have just lost faith in this community no matter what side of the fence we're on
On June 05 2012 16:29 Canucklehead wrote: I can picture it now. Leenock steps off the plane for mlg and bam...100 reporters in his face and cameras flashing asking him to respond to these accusations....well maybe if esports was big enough this would happen.
Anyone who's been to an MLG and hung around the player area for any substantial amount of time knows what was accused of Leenock is not possible. They'd be more asking him what does he think about the fact that such accusations were even made.
On June 05 2012 16:29 Canucklehead wrote: I can picture it now. Leenock steps off the plane for mlg and bam...100 reporters in his face and cameras flashing asking him to respond to these accusations....well maybe if esports was big enough this would happen.
Anyone who's been to an MLG and hung around the player area for any substantial amount of time knows what was accused of Leenock is not possible. They'd be more asking him what does he think about the fact that such accusations were even made.
MKPS2 kekekeke As soon as I wake up something makes me laugh out loud
FXOLeenock Huh, I just got back from my profile shoot but why are there accusations of cheating keke
MKPS2 @FXOLeenock Dong Nyung-ah let's have some meat~~
FXOLeenock @MKPS2 !!!!!!!! I'm starved right now!!!!!!!!
On June 05 2012 16:29 Canucklehead wrote: I can picture it now. Leenock steps off the plane for mlg and bam...100 reporters in his face and cameras flashing asking him to respond to these accusations....well maybe if esports was big enough this would happen.
Anyone who's been to an MLG and hung around the player area for any substantial amount of time knows what was accused of Leenock is not possible. They'd be more asking him what does he think about the fact that such accusations were even made.
MKPS2 kekekeke As soon as I wake up something makes me laugh out loud
FXOLeenock Huh, I just got back from my profile shoot but why are there accusations of cheating keke
MKPS2 @FXOLeenock Dong Nyung-ah let's have some meat~~
FXOLeenock @MKPS2 !!!!!!!! I'm starved right now!!!!!!!!
On June 05 2012 16:29 Canucklehead wrote: I can picture it now. Leenock steps off the plane for mlg and bam...100 reporters in his face and cameras flashing asking him to respond to these accusations....well maybe if esports was big enough this would happen.
Anyone who's been to an MLG and hung around the player area for any substantial amount of time knows what was accused of Leenock is not possible. They'd be more asking him what does he think about the fact that such accusations were even made.
MKPS2 kekekeke As soon as I wake up something makes me laugh out loud
FXOLeenock Huh, I just got back from my profile shoot but why are there accusations of cheating keke
MKPS2 @FXOLeenock Dong Nyung-ah let's have some meat~~
FXOLeenock @MKPS2 !!!!!!!! I'm starved right now!!!!!!!!
I think the accusation just makes him hungry
Koreans preparing to own more white dudes.
Leenock accused of cheating: Laughs and eats Spades accused of cheating: cries and guilt trips everyone
On June 05 2012 16:31 DarkLordOlli wrote: Fucking hell, this community can be so disgusting at times. None of us know anything about this yet people are so quick to judge.
Well. to be fair this accusations were not made by random nobodies.
On June 05 2012 16:48 Quesadilla wrote: All because of this worthless toolbag's accusation against Spades that's hiding behind anonymity. This is ridiculous.
Why do you look at the person pointing the finger instead of if the person being pointed at is actually guilty or not? and yes there is a lot of evidence pointing to him being guilty.
On June 05 2012 16:48 Quesadilla wrote: All because of this worthless toolbag's accusation against Spades that's hiding behind anonymity. This is ridiculous.
Why do you look at the person pointing the finger instead of if the person being pointed at is actually guilty or not? and yes there is a lot of evidence pointing to him being guilty.
I don't think many people should disprove of that topic being started. It's a necessary evil. However this thread would have been avoided entirely if someone would have put his foot in his mouth. Instead of exposing some dirty laundry that could have been based entirely on a misunderstanding. Which really didn't assist to the makeshift trial that was being put on Spades. Keep explosives away from an open flame.
On June 05 2012 16:48 Quesadilla wrote: All because of this worthless toolbag's accusation against Spades that's hiding behind anonymity. This is ridiculous.
Why do you look at the person pointing the finger instead of if the person being pointed at is actually guilty or not? and yes there is a lot of evidence pointing to him being guilty.
Because I don't trust anything a 1-post nobody says, especially when the point of the post is to defame another person with vested interest in playing competitively. Even if he hacks, it's weak.
Ok so this is how I interpreted the situation. It seems from Mirhi's post that his only two sources were from Spades an Artist. Now Artist has already explained that he thought it was all a misunderstanding coming from Artists lesser English skills at the time. When it comes comes to Spades it would only be natural to accuse Koreans of stream cheating from a psychological standpoint since Mirhi might have already been aware of it that Spades stream cheated (for example from the match against Gatored).
I know this is a lot of speculation but I'm really trying to lessen the drama about this. I don't think there's nearly enough evidence to even suspect Koreans of stream cheating at this point.
On June 05 2012 16:29 Canucklehead wrote: I can picture it now. Leenock steps off the plane for mlg and bam...100 reporters in his face and cameras flashing asking him to respond to these accusations....well maybe if esports was big enough this would happen.
Anyone who's been to an MLG and hung around the player area for any substantial amount of time knows what was accused of Leenock is not possible. They'd be more asking him what does he think about the fact that such accusations were even made.
MKPS2 kekekeke As soon as I wake up something makes me laugh out loud
FXOLeenock Huh, I just got back from my profile shoot but why are there accusations of cheating keke
MKPS2 @FXOLeenock Dong Nyung-ah let's have some meat~~
FXOLeenock @MKPS2 !!!!!!!! I'm starved right now!!!!!!!!
I think the accusation just makes him hungry
Koreans preparing to own more white dudes.
Leenock accused of cheating: Laughs and eats Spades accused of cheating: cries and guilt trips everyone
Leenock and MKP wisely not taking this community's random idiocy seriously. Good job boys
On June 05 2012 16:48 Quesadilla wrote: All because of this worthless toolbag's accusation against Spades that's hiding behind anonymity. This is ridiculous.
Why do you look at the person pointing the finger instead of if the person being pointed at is actually guilty or not? and yes there is a lot of evidence pointing to him being guilty.
Because I don't trust anything a 1-post nobody says, especially when the point of the post is to defame another person with vested interest in playing competitively. Even if he hacks, it's weak.
The mods did their standard routine on that thread for a one time poster. They couldn't tie the IP to any other account on the site. I suppose it could be interpreted as a weak thing to do. However I ask when would the proper time to out him be? Before or after he achieves notable online wins, prize money?
On June 05 2012 17:08 JoeSchmoe wrote: so we went from spades cheating to artist and spades stream cheating to leenock helping others cheat to leenock cheating? wtf is going on?
I gotta admit, I lol'd at this and how absurd it sounds written just so. Very poignant summary.
On June 05 2012 14:19 ghrur wrote: Man, I can't tell if this is getting more entertaining or more sad.
Both... sadly... Its really painful to have to witness these accusations be made. I'm sure everyone who is an avid online tourny viewer will feel appalled by all this. Personally I hope these accusations are not true, and if they are I really hope they are limited to only a select few of the accused population.
It makes sense what Choya says but at the same time, Artist did win MANY Playhems in a row... It's just sad... but at the same time seeing it all unfold does bring a sense of unrealness which compels everyone to want more... it's like saviOr all over again...
On June 05 2012 14:19 ghrur wrote: Man, I can't tell if this is getting more entertaining or more sad.
Both... sadly... Its really painful to have to witness these accusations be made. I'm sure everyone who is an avid online tourny viewer will feel appalled by all this. Personally I hope these accusations are not true, and if they are I really hope they are limited to only a select few of the accused population.
It makes sense what Choya says but at the same time, Artist did win MANY Playhems in a row... It's just sad... but at the same time seeing it all unfold does bring a sense of unrealness which compels everyone to want more... it's like saviOr all over again...
no its not. this would be considered irrelevant compared to what savior did.
On June 05 2012 17:18 bokchoi wrote: Let the Mirhi witchhunt begin?
Hard to imagine IGN will be happy with him creating this unnecessary storm. Because he lacked the integrity to stop Spades from cheating in the past. Then to take his lack of understanding with Artist to toss the Korean scene under the bus.
so 1 post count says spades hacks => fuck yeah he cheats => catz and biased friends make a show about it (what a joke)=> 80% of TL shits on the guy without giving it much thought or even watching the replays i bet. Mirhi (compare that to 1 post acct) says he personally saw all kinds of cheating going on even by Koreans and now we get people saying its all bs? if anything, mirhi's post has more weight, yet we are all so happy to shit on spades, but defend Koreans cause Leenock is cute At least peeps are right about one thing, this shit is even better than Game of Thrones... but come on now. Any of you who jumped onto fuck Spades wagon but now criticize mirhi are full of shit. He had nothing to gain with that post, and everything to lose.
Let me just fix that up for you. A guy makes an account to post what he considers incriminating evidence on a known map hacker and players/posters jump in on all sides. No clear consensus is made.
Mihri posts ambiguous tweets that level accusations but don't clearly state when or attach replays/proof.
On June 05 2012 17:35 iokke wrote: so 1 post count says spades hacks => fuck yeah he cheats => catz and biased friends make a show about it (what a joke)=> 80% of TL shits on the guy without giving it much thought or even watching the replays i bet. Mirhi (compare that to 1 post acct) says he personally saw all kinds of cheating going on even by Koreans and now we get people saying its all bs? if anything, mirhi's post has more weight, yet we are all so happy to shit on spades, but defend Koreans cause Leenock is cute At least peeps are right about one thing, this shit is even better than Game of Thrones... but come on now. Any of you who jumped onto fuck Spades wagon but now criticize mirhi are full of shit. He had nothing to gain with that post, and everything to lose.
p.s. I dont even like spades
... or maybe Mirhi was out to further slander Spades and thought people would focus in on the Spades "cheating" more than damaging the Korean scene. Don't really think Mirhi thought it out, and is clearly still mad at Spades.
On June 05 2012 17:35 iokke wrote: so 1 post count says spades hacks => fuck yeah he cheats => catz and biased friends make a show about it=> 80% of TL shits on the guy without giving it much thought or even watching the replays i bet. Mirhi (compare that to 1 post acct) says he personally saw all kinds of cheating going on even by Koreans and now we get people saying its all bs? if anything, mirhi's post has more weight, yet we are all so happy to shit on spades, but defend Koreans cause Leenock is cute At least peeps are right about one thing, this shit is even better than Game of Thrones... but come on now. Any of you who jumped onto fuck Spades wagon but now criticize mirhi are full of shit. He had nothing to gain with that post, and everything to lose
Only thing is the person who accused spades had proof that people went over and analyzed. Mirhi didn't have any proof and a bunch of people said otherwise. When the only proof you have is your own personal account and a bunch of other people in the same situation say otherwise then there is a good reason why people think it is BS. personally, im not taking a side in the korean stream cheating situation because I don't know anything about it and there isn't nearly enough proof either way for me to even think about taking a side.
On June 05 2012 17:18 bokchoi wrote: Let the Mirhi witchhunt begin?
I dearly wish we could pitchfork the hell out of him and make sure it effects his life.
However, I think we've damaged the scene enough for this run.
uhh you want to damage someones life? -_- everything in both these threads has already gone too far.
Well Mirhi's statements could've potentially hurt the livelihood and lives of MANY players. You can't just make statements like that and expect nothing to happen...
when i read his post it, to me it felt like so (if i remember it right): "Not sure if spades actually hacks, but now that i have a chance to put it out there, i saw him and Koreans stream-cheat and abuse other advantages quite often" All I could pull from that is that he had nothing to gain by lying, and that spades and other pros abused the opportunity to watch live opponents playing at least at one point. shit im tired i hope i didn't confuse the posts lol sry for 2x post tt
On June 05 2012 17:35 iokke wrote: so 1 post count says spades hacks => fuck yeah he cheats => catz and biased friends make a show about it=> 80% of TL shits on the guy without giving it much thought or even watching the replays i bet. Mirhi (compare that to 1 post acct) says he personally saw all kinds of cheating going on even by Koreans and now we get people saying its all bs? if anything, mirhi's post has more weight, yet we are all so happy to shit on spades, but defend Koreans cause Leenock is cute At least peeps are right about one thing, this shit is even better than Game of Thrones... but come on now. Any of you who jumped onto fuck Spades wagon but now criticize mirhi are full of shit. He had nothing to gain with that post, and everything to lose
Only thing is the person who accused spades had proof that people went over and analyzed. Mirhi didn't have any proof and a bunch of people said otherwise. When the only proof you have is your own personal account and a bunch of other people in the same situation say otherwise then there is a good reason why people think it is BS. personally, im not taking a side in the korean stream cheating situation because I don't know anything about it and there isn't nearly enough proof either way for me to even think about taking a side.
idk from what i gathered most of the spades accusers points have been disproved. And he is no-one (community wise) as it stands at the moment. Mihri had nothing at all to gain from lying. Like 0. Literally. At this point i am inclined to believe him because of that, though obviously I can easily be wrong
Sad to see Leenock accused. Don't think there is any right to do such an accusation without any proof, really hurts the player's image just be to connected with cheating whether or not he did it.
It is possible to tell the truth as you understand it, but still be wrong or mistaken. People should consider that when analyzing claims people have made.
On June 05 2012 17:44 iokke wrote: idk when i read his post it, to me it fealt like so: "Not if spades actually hacks, but now that i have a chance to put it out there, i saw him and Koreans stream-cheat and abuse other advantages quite alto" All I could pull from that is that he had nothing to gain by lying, and that spades and other pros abused the opportunity to watch live opponents playing at least at one point. shit im tired i hope i didn't confuse the posts lol
Its not at all suspicious, questionable, or shady that he suddenly mentions this? Also if he knew his players were cheating, why keep them on his team?
On June 05 2012 14:16 Daniel C wrote: Unfortunately, no Korean player or coach will ever admit to it (if it's true)...so it's just your word against mine.
No offense to Mirhi but his and Artist's words are heresay too. Artist was in fOu briefly before joining RGN so he's lived in maybe one major team house. When Spades went to Korea he lived in the GOM house. Don't see how major/all Korean pro houses stream cheat comes from this. Not to mention, Dragon was kicked out of SlayerS and WeRRa for previously stream cheating.
In his statement Mirhi basically accused a majority of, if not all Korean team houses of stream-cheating and claiming that he had proof/accounts, but Mirhi has personally never lived in a single Korean team house, Artist has lived in MAYBE one, and Spades lived in the GOM house where other people living in the house have said it never happened.
It is ridiculous that an accusation from a random person (ex-manager, biased towards one party) can be taken so seriously. Not a word that comes from that guy can be taken seriously to any extent. It is complete bullshit.
Also it is literally impossible to help out another person at an MLG like was said. There is zero possibility of that even being attempted during an event.
Next excuse if foreigners lose to Koreans won't be lag but cheating? Seriously .. I actually cannot believe people do think they would streamcheat, but considering some people really thought orb is racist...
On June 05 2012 17:52 Type|NarutO wrote: Next excuse if foreigners lose to Koreans won't be lag but cheating? Seriously .. I actually cannot believe people do think they would streamcheat, but considering some people really thought orb is racist...
I think you've been around long enough to have really low standards of the eSports mob. :p Not surprised random bullshit drama like this happens every week. At first I found it upsetting because omgruiningesports but heck I barely even remember what drama happened last month. I'll get over it.
Incontrol chimes in with the possible reasoning and a bit of history:
uhhh no lol. Koreans were notorious cheaters in BW by switching names and having better players play for them or simply doing it to goof around. Koreans were also famous for obs cheat/stream cheating.. it's not as big of a deal in their community to do this in tourneys that aren't of korean origin. I already know of several stories of several houses where this occurred. Does it suck? Yep. But in a game where winning and name recognition means the difference between having a career and not.. a lot of these guys will take that risk. Especially when people who get caught are forgiven and brought back in with almost NO pain at all (choya, Cocoa, Dragon etc etc).
On June 05 2012 17:52 Type|NarutO wrote: Next excuse if foreigners lose to Koreans won't be lag but cheating? Seriously .. I actually cannot believe people do think they would streamcheat, but considering some people really thought orb is racist...
are you blind or something did you see what Diamond said ?
On June 05 2012 14:24 IMNasty wrote: people don't understand that thea accusation against leenock wasn't that he cheated to win MLG providence, it was giving hints to other koreans while they played off stage, which entirely plausible given korean pride and how evidently important it is to them
uhhh no lol. Koreans were notorious cheaters in BW by switching names and having better players play for them or simply doing it to goof around. Koreans were also famous for obs cheat/stream cheating.. it's not as big of a deal in their community to do this in tourneys that aren't of korean origin. I already know of several stories of several houses where this occurred. Does it suck? Yep. But in a game where winning and name recognition means the difference between having a career and not.. a lot of these guys will take that risk. Especially when people who get caught are forgiven and brought back in with almost NO pain at all (choya, Cocoa, Dragon etc etc).
As has been stated in the thread several times already. At this point leagues should just expect this and take measures to prevent it. Why wait until there is a documented case of it?
On June 05 2012 17:44 iokke wrote: idk when i read his post it, to me it fealt like so: "Not if spades actually hacks, but now that i have a chance to put it out there, i saw him and Koreans stream-cheat and abuse other advantages quite alto" All I could pull from that is that he had nothing to gain by lying, and that spades and other pros abused the opportunity to watch live opponents playing at least at one point. shit im tired i hope i didn't confuse the posts lol
Its not at all suspicious, questionable, or shady that he suddenly mentions this? Also if he knew his players were cheating, why keep them on his team?
On June 05 2012 14:16 Daniel C wrote: Unfortunately, no Korean player or coach will ever admit to it (if it's true)...so it's just your word against mine.
No offense to Mirhi but his and Artist's words are heresay too. Artist was in fOu briefly before joining RGN so he's lived in maybe one major team house. When Spades went to Korea he lived in the GOM house. Don't see how major/all Korean pro houses stream cheat comes from this. Not to mention, Dragon was kicked out of SlayerS and WeRRa for previously stream cheating.
In his statement Mirhi basically accused a majority of, if not all Korean team houses of stream-cheating and claiming that he had proof/accounts, but Mirhi has personally never lived in a single Korean team house, Artist has lived in MAYBE one, and Spades lived in the GOM house where other people living in the house have said it never happened.
well maybe you are right. I admit, my main reason for trusting mirhi is not solid, especially if he is just trolling.. The way i saw it, there is no benefit for him to say those things, if they are lies or truth. If he lied, shame on him for that. If he said the truth,shame on him for not saying it earlier. It's a loss-loss, so why say it unless it is actually true... Personally, that lends some credibility to him. At the same time, maybe I am mistaken... i mean I guess I could ask myself, if he didn't expose it earlier, why trust him now...
Can I just say the same thing I've said in the Spades thread?
"It's important that on principle this discussion shouldn't be happening in the first place, neither should the Choya's twitter accusations thread be up. This is the reason why a central union or organization that represents all the teams and players needs to exist so there is a standard procedure for reporting hacks, stream cheating, or anything else that may jeopardize the integrity of the competition. As it stands something like 20-25% of this thread is pure public slander, and it's ruined the name of a progamer, notice that this is irrelevant to whether he was a hacker or not. No one is going to be held accountable for the damage that this has done if Spades didn't cheat.
This is how slander always works, because you present a case that upsets the personal sensibilities and emotions of people explicitly irrelevant to the conflict and often that's the basis of discussion, not factual evidence or logic. The whole debate had little moral or logical relevance to begin with, it had alot of personal interest and relevance to the posters and people involved. I really hope threads like this don't become a sensationalist tread, we need to establish standards of reporting and debating topics like this."
On June 05 2012 18:02 Caihead wrote: Can I just say the same thing I've said in the Spades thread?
"It's important that on principle this discussion shouldn't be happening in the first place, neither should the Choya's twitter accusations thread be up. This is the reason why a central union or organization that represents all the teams and players needs to exist so there is a standard procedure for reporting hacks, stream cheating, or anything else that may jeopardize the integrity of the competition. As it stands something like 20-25% of this thread is pure public slander, and it's ruined the name of a progamer, notice that this is irrelevant to whether he was a hacker or not. No one is going to be held accountable for the damage that this has done if Spades didn't cheat.
This is how slander always works, because you present a case that upsets the personal sensibilities and emotions of people explicitly irrelevant to the conflict and often that's the basis of discussion, not factual evidence or logic. The whole debate had little moral or logical relevance to begin with, it had alot of personal interest and relevance to the posters and people involved. I really hope threads like this don't become a sensationalist tread, we need to establish standards of reporting and debating topics like this."
It's not true that their name is tarnished for sure. Effort? I didn't follow BW but IIRC he was accused of being part of the match fixing scandal and he's back to playing now and everything is fine and dandy. Think if the target was White-Ra his reputation would be tarnished right now? Fuck no.
On June 05 2012 18:02 Caihead wrote: Can I just say the same thing I've said in the Spades thread?
"It's important that on principle this discussion shouldn't be happening in the first place, neither should the Choya's twitter accusations thread be up. This is the reason why a central union or organization that represents all the teams and players needs to exist so there is a standard procedure for reporting hacks, stream cheating, or anything else that may jeopardize the integrity of the competition. As it stands something like 20-25% of this thread is pure public slander, and it's ruined the name of a progamer, notice that this is irrelevant to whether he was a hacker or not. No one is going to be held accountable for the damage that this has done if Spades didn't cheat.
This is how slander always works, because you present a case that upsets the personal sensibilities and emotions of people explicitly irrelevant to the conflict and often that's the basis of discussion, not factual evidence or logic. The whole debate had little moral or logical relevance to begin with, it had alot of personal interest and relevance to the posters and people involved. I really hope threads like this don't become a sensationalist tread, we need to establish standards of reporting and debating topics like this."
It's not true that their name is tarnished for sure. Effort? I didn't follow BW but IIRC he was accused of being part of the match fixing scandal and he's back to playing now and everything is fine and dandy. Think if the target was White-Ra his reputation would be tarnished right now? Fuck no.
Nope. The only falsely accused player was SangHo/Killer and he retired from BW because of it.
On June 05 2012 18:02 Caihead wrote: Can I just say the same thing I've said in the Spades thread?
"It's important that on principle this discussion shouldn't be happening in the first place, neither should the Choya's twitter accusations thread be up. This is the reason why a central union or organization that represents all the teams and players needs to exist so there is a standard procedure for reporting hacks, stream cheating, or anything else that may jeopardize the integrity of the competition. As it stands something like 20-25% of this thread is pure public slander, and it's ruined the name of a progamer, notice that this is irrelevant to whether he was a hacker or not. No one is going to be held accountable for the damage that this has done if Spades didn't cheat.
This is how slander always works, because you present a case that upsets the personal sensibilities and emotions of people explicitly irrelevant to the conflict and often that's the basis of discussion, not factual evidence or logic. The whole debate had little moral or logical relevance to begin with, it had alot of personal interest and relevance to the posters and people involved. I really hope threads like this don't become a sensationalist tread, we need to establish standards of reporting and debating topics like this."
It's not true that their name is tarnished for sure. Effort? I didn't follow BW but IIRC he was accused of being part of the match fixing scandal and he's back to playing now and everything is fine and dandy. Think if the target was White-Ra his reputation would be tarnished right now? Fuck no.
Nope. The only falsely accused player was SangHo/Killer and he retired from BW because of it.
Ah, alright my bad. Do you really think he wouldn't have been able to keep playing if he really wanted to though? And I guess their situation was 100x more serious as well. But now I'm just off on a tangent I will go to bed D:
As a guy who never cheats, but has played against cheaters in many games, from many countries I will say this. Every country has it's bad eggs, Russia(I'm Russian), China, Korea, USA, Canada, Brazil, etc... some countries have more some countries have less. There are going to be Koreans who have cheated, them getting offended is fine, as they should be. Now what are they going to do about this problem?
To be honest, I believe the best way to deal with this is get rid of the cheaters now. Very few people are like TT1 and actually make a natural real change and stop cheating, it's hard to change yourself, and the temptation might be there for people to do it again. So the best course of action is to kick them off, and let them work hard to improve themselves back. I actually like TT1 more now than I did before, believe it or not he's seen as a hero by some people for being able to change himself into a non-cheater.
Think about these things clearly, how many people do you know fail to quit smoking? How many succeed? Alcoholics, people who cheat in single player games might do it on online, while others will only cheat in single player and never online. We were all raised differently so we all have different standards.
In conclusion, there are cheating Koreans, but chances are whoever is reading this post has cheated in some game in their life themselves,(We tend to point fingers at others but forget about ourselves.) just have you grown out of it? Some people still need to learn.
On June 05 2012 17:44 iokke wrote: idk when i read his post it, to me it fealt like so: "Not if spades actually hacks, but now that i have a chance to put it out there, i saw him and Koreans stream-cheat and abuse other advantages quite alto" All I could pull from that is that he had nothing to gain by lying, and that spades and other pros abused the opportunity to watch live opponents playing at least at one point. shit im tired i hope i didn't confuse the posts lol
Its not at all suspicious, questionable, or shady that he suddenly mentions this? Also if he knew his players were cheating, why keep them on his team?
Also just to bring back what I originally said
On June 05 2012 14:21 bokchoi wrote:
On June 05 2012 14:16 Daniel C wrote: Unfortunately, no Korean player or coach will ever admit to it (if it's true)...so it's just your word against mine.
No offense to Mirhi but his and Artist's words are heresay too. Artist was in fOu briefly before joining RGN so he's lived in maybe one major team house. When Spades went to Korea he lived in the GOM house. Don't see how major/all Korean pro houses stream cheat comes from this. Not to mention, Dragon was kicked out of SlayerS and WeRRa for previously stream cheating.
In his statement Mirhi basically accused a majority of, if not all Korean team houses of stream-cheating and claiming that he had proof/accounts, but Mirhi has personally never lived in a single Korean team house, Artist has lived in MAYBE one, and Spades lived in the GOM house where other people living in the house have said it never happened.
well maybe you are right. I admit, my main reason for trusting mirhi is not solid, especially if he is just trolling.. The way i saw it, there is no benefit for him to say those things, if they are lies or truth. If he lied, shame on him for that. If he said the truth,shame on him for not saying it earlier. It's a loss-loss, so why say it unless it is actually true... Personally, that lends some credibility to him. At the same time, maybe I am mistaken... i mean I guess I could ask myself, if he didn't expose it earlier, why trust him now...
He wanted to bury Spades. However doing so he admitted he knew Spades was cheating during the time he was the manager. He didn't prevent Spades from doing so, which obviously makes him look bad as a person. So he found a backdoor in trying to justify his actions, of oh well uh Artist says it happens all the time. Turns out it was a possible lost in translation issue.
On June 05 2012 17:18 bokchoi wrote: Let the Mirhi witchhunt begin?
I dearly wish we could pitchfork the hell out of him and make sure it effects his life.
However, I think we've damaged the scene enough for this run.
uhh you want to damage someones life? -_- everything in both these threads has already gone too far.
Yeah, why not? We can take a break, then think of something to screw this Mihri guy over. After all, we can't just have people running around and slandering public figures like Leenock (and pretty much all Korean pros). It's just bad policy.
On June 05 2012 18:02 Caihead wrote: Can I just say the same thing I've said in the Spades thread?
"It's important that on principle this discussion shouldn't be happening in the first place, neither should the Choya's twitter accusations thread be up. This is the reason why a central union or organization that represents all the teams and players needs to exist so there is a standard procedure for reporting hacks, stream cheating, or anything else that may jeopardize the integrity of the competition. As it stands something like 20-25% of this thread is pure public slander, and it's ruined the name of a progamer, notice that this is irrelevant to whether he was a hacker or not. No one is going to be held accountable for the damage that this has done if Spades didn't cheat.
This is how slander always works, because you present a case that upsets the personal sensibilities and emotions of people explicitly irrelevant to the conflict and often that's the basis of discussion, not factual evidence or logic. The whole debate had little moral or logical relevance to begin with, it had alot of personal interest and relevance to the posters and people involved. I really hope threads like this don't become a sensationalist tread, we need to establish standards of reporting and debating topics like this."
It's not true that their name is tarnished for sure. Effort? I didn't follow BW but IIRC he was accused of being part of the match fixing scandal and he's back to playing now and everything is fine and dandy. Think if the target was White-Ra his reputation would be tarnished right now? Fuck no.
Nope. The only falsely accused player was SangHo/Killer and he retired from BW because of it.
Ah, alright my bad. Do you really think he wouldn't have been able to keep playing if he really wanted to though? And I guess their situation was 100x more serious as well. But now I'm just off on a tangent I will go to bed D:
Unfortunately, just the suggestion that SangHo was on a list of players (that at the time hadn't been released to the public but widely speculated) was enough to end his career. People were already starting to harass him, and being tainted with the worst SC:BW scandal forced him to retire. He was extremely lucky that SC2 came out when it did, since otherwise, he would probably have been gone from the scene completely.
If the target was White-Ra, the whole thing would have blown over differently. Right now, after the long standing thread discussing maphacking at the GM level on ladder, the community as a whole was on a trigger waiting for some actual "big name" to be caught. With the evidence provided against Spades by the OP, a lot of people ended up believing the result without actually watching any of the replays, simply because it seemed that it was true because of all the evidence. If it were White-Ra, more people would have put in the effort of watching the replays, and then possibly we would have a real discussion. I mean, consider the number of people who only started to talk about certain aspects of the replay after Catz went over it, many of them which don't absolutely require a GM to see.
On June 05 2012 18:13 Waterflow wrote: Gaming drama............... facepalm.
If you don't like drama surrounding games, you're in the wrong community :p
Nah i love this community (atleast a part of it). But i have distanced myself abit from it so i see it from a different perspective now. Maybe it's because i have more important stuff in life right now than to care about online gaming drama.
On June 05 2012 18:25 sigma_x wrote: Between these two threads, it's pretty evident that TL is thirsty for blood today.
Seriously... This thread needs to be closed unless some solid evidence is forthcoming. These mass hysterias are destroying people's careers and even, in this case, slandering who knows how many Korean pros. It's been happening on a regular basis now--I think the moderators need to have some sort of policy about containing witch hunts or something, this is crazy.
On June 05 2012 18:25 sigma_x wrote: Between these two threads, it's pretty evident that TL is thirsty for blood today.
Seriously... This thread needs to be closed unless some solid evidence is forthcoming. These mass hysterias are destroying people's careers and even, in this case, slandering who knows how many Korean pros. It's been happening on a regular basis now--I think the moderators need to have some sort of policy about containing witch hunts or something, this is crazy.
This particular thread isn't a hunt on the Koreans, but the exact opposite. People are having a few laughs with the Korean pro's as they laugh off these bold accusations. This is the aftermath thread of what happens when one person of some significance stumbles on his words.
With coming to a quick decision on they shouldn't stream things live to just prevent potential incidents.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uVMZ2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/8/16/128949157150193210.jpg)
