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The subject of this thread is not a license to roll out your inaccurate, misinformed, poorly conceived, tired, and downright offensive theories about race relations. |
On March 09 2012 12:39 Kfcnoob wrote:
Orb is fine and a great guy and a great caster. Don't attempt to ruin his reputation because he uses the word 'nigger'. He probably isn't racist but is instead using the crass internet words like 'nig, gay, rape' etc that are popular even tho the one who utters them may not actually hate those groups or approve of rape.
that makes no sense whatsoever. the choice to not hate a specific group does not justify the usage of words.
i don't hate jews or blacks but doesn't mean i'm allowed to abuse and vilify them
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dang I used to like orb man, as a black guy I cannot support orb no longer, can't watch and support someone who hate me cause of my skin.
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If you think it's OK for a member of a Professional organization to throw hateful/racist comments out, on a live stream, then you are surely BAD for eSports. This is very bad for esports. Professional doesn't only mean you are skilled at what you do. Also it makes you a coward, because surely you wouldn't use that language if someone has more than 20 items in the express checkout line at your local grocery store.
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On March 09 2012 12:40 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:39 Zzoram wrote:On March 09 2012 12:36 ZenithM wrote:
Looks like orb is in pretty deep shit now. EG cannot do anything else than removing him at this point.
I kinda like him as a caster though, that's a shame, but you gotta behave on the Internet when it's very closely related to your professional life.
He shot himself in the foot by lying so strongly since the beginning. Had he confirmed immediately, that would have been recoverable I think. Yep. He just needed to issue a public apology, do some good deed to make up for it, and never do it again. Instead he lied and dodged until he was caught. He doesn't get a second chance after that. Some dudes learn the hard way ... I think lying to your boss about a potential PR nightmare is just really poor judgement.
Makes this post funnier though doesn't it?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318389¤tpage=5#100
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On March 09 2012 12:33 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:29 knOxStarcraft wrote:On March 09 2012 12:23 Utinni wrote:On March 09 2012 12:22 Amlitzer wrote:On March 09 2012 12:00 densha wrote:
I'm surprised (well, I guess not really) that there are people posting here who just don't understand how offensive it is to watch a privileged white kid throw around a word that was forged in human bondage and suffering so freely. He chose to use the most offensive, taboo word in the English language to express simple ladder rage. He literally could have picked anything else to say, even "cunt" obviously doesn't have the history of the N word. It's the history that matters, folks, and the fact that Orb apparently has no regard for such things.
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing but that doesn't mean you're free of the consequences of your speech. If Orb ever casts again, the chat will be constant N word references. He'll always be known (as South Park puts it) as "that nigger guy". Every time I see his face, it will be difficult to take him seriously or not think of the controversy. Is anyone really going to want him casting their games now? Can he serve as the face of an organization now? I do not think so, and that's simply the reality of a "public" figure using the N word and getting caught. Get over yourself, nigger is not even close to the most "taboo" words in existence. The fact that negroes routinely call each other by the term is proof alone of that fact. It's not like he said cunt or kike, now those terms would get you lynched to high heaven. ... you are seriously misguided and ill-informed... its actually the same thing.... wow. How is he misguided exactly? Why can Jay-Z and Kanye release songs titled "Niggas in Paris" and have the word mean nothing more than a song title? Why, when they call eachother niggas does it just mean "other black person" or "friend" or whatever? I am obviously missing something here because if the word is so "emotionally charged" and forever linked to slavery then why the fuck do black people routinely use it? Or does switching the "er" to an "a" make all the difference here..... The difference in intent is obvious. The word has multiple meanings depending on context. It's called the English Language, and that's how it works. There's a difference between calling a woman a bitch, calling the line at supermarket a bitch, and calling your best friend a bitch. Sheesh.
Exactly, so people can stop feeding everyone this bullshit about the word being "emotionally charged". It's the way the word is used not the word itself. Depending on what each person think orb was meaning by what he said determines what each person will think of orb and his character from now on
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On March 09 2012 12:38 Zelda1721 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:21 densha wrote:On March 09 2012 12:12 synapse wrote:
Why is "nigger" considered out of line when "faggot" and "homo" aren't? He's not directing them at a person who he knows is black (presumably)--they're all just words that have come to have very general negative connotations.
I mean, I don't support orb for saying that kind of stuff (at least IdrA is somewhat creative in his rage), but isn't this kind of a double standard? It is a double standard to a point. I personally dislike the use of "gay", "homo", and "faggot" as insults and I cringe when they are used whether IRL or on the internet. Having said that, though, the N word has a very specific history in the US that forever ties it to slavery. Whether you think it's just another word or you're offended by it is most likely determined by whether you understand that historical reference. So while the sexual epithets are offensive and hurtful, they aren't tied directly to an era when an entire people were subjugated and abused by their fellow Americans. You realize that "Faggot" was a bundle of sticks that was used to burn homosexuals, right? That sounds like abuse and subjugation to me.
You are actually incorrect.
"However, any association of faggots with executions had long become a historical curiosity by the time the slang sense of the word arose in twentieth-century America.[5] Moreover, burning was never prescribed as a punishment for homosexuality in either Britain or America.[7][5] This explanation is therefore considered to be an urban legend.[5]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(slang)
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On March 09 2012 12:34 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:23 figq wrote:
Meanwhile, Tastosis on GOM would often say that some teenage kids are being "raped" or "stomped". Fortunately, the Reddit Knights of Sacred English Language are not choosing to interpret those words literally yet.
Words don't exist by themselves and don't have meaning by themselves. It depends on what one means with those words. The only reason for Orb to use "forbidden" words is simply that - that they are taboo and would shake you up. He doesn't care at all about the actual meaning of them, he doesn't give a shit about racism or homophobia, I'm sure he has friends of all colors and sexuality. What he cares about is to shake you up and throw your own taboo in your face. So there's these things without any actual meaning right. But they do have meaning, but they don't because they can't unless someone gives it meaning, but it has an actual mean.. I'm sorry, I got really lost there. You were trying to explain how something can simultaneously not have meaning and have an actual, true meaning. This excuse is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard and it really needs to stop. It's some pseudo-intellectual thing that destiny argued once to try and justify his rampant use of racial slurs. Ten go fart hike mountain flip domain insert up enter. Clearly, only I know the true meaning behind those words because I can decide for myself right? Words are designed to have meaning, interpretation of words being loose almost exclusively applies to words that have scalability to them. Angry, furious, mad, those are all words that mean relatively the same thing but to a certain scale and often have qualifiers like "a little" and "very". Saying that words only have the meaning you put to them is like trying to genuinely argue some bullshit like 1 = 2. Numbers are made up as well, in fact, they're words that describe a count of something. Can we please cut this middle school crap out? You wouldn't candidly have a conversation with say, an elderly black man who was actually alive to experience the word nigger in it's fullest and exclusively refer to him as a nigger. Are you fucking kidding me? Drop this internet tough guy shit out, it's embarrassing. Tell me, do you honestly believe that Orb actually cares about racism or homophobia?
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On March 09 2012 12:43 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:40 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 12:39 Zzoram wrote:On March 09 2012 12:36 ZenithM wrote:
Looks like orb is in pretty deep shit now. EG cannot do anything else than removing him at this point.
I kinda like him as a caster though, that's a shame, but you gotta behave on the Internet when it's very closely related to your professional life.
He shot himself in the foot by lying so strongly since the beginning. Had he confirmed immediately, that would have been recoverable I think. Yep. He just needed to issue a public apology, do some good deed to make up for it, and never do it again. Instead he lied and dodged until he was caught. He doesn't get a second chance after that. Some dudes learn the hard way ... I think lying to your boss about a potential PR nightmare is just really poor judgement. Makes this post funnier though doesn't it? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318389¤tpage=5#100
LOL. God bless you for that.
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On March 09 2012 12:30 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:27 Ghost.573 wrote:On March 09 2012 12:23 figq wrote:
Meanwhile, Tastosis on GOM would often say that some teenage kids are being "raped" or "stomped". Fortunately, the Reddit Knights of Sacred English Language are not choosing to interpret those words literally yet.
Words don't exist by themselves and don't have meaning by themselves. It depends on what one means with those words. The only reason for Orb to use "forbidden" words is simply that - that they are taboo and would shake you up. He doesn't care at all about the actual meaning of them, he doesn't give a shit about racism or homophobia, I'm sure he has friends of all colors and sexuality. What he cares about is to shake you up and throw your own taboo in your face. The huge difference is that he doesn't use them to mean what they mean. If you have ever played sports in your life you have heard the phrase "That team just got raped" and other phrases alike. I used it at 9 years old. If you haven't figured it out yet, thousands of words have many different meanings. I would never think twice about saying that X player just got raped by the other. All it means is he got outplayed by a big margin. Its almost as if context has something to do with how a word should be interpreted...
Have either one of you ever had someone force themselves on you sexually? While I'm going to assume you are not concerned with how your words or actions effect others some people are. I personally don't have experience with being raped but I would imagine when a rape victim hear that word they don't think "oh someone got beat by a huge margin". More than likely that see imagines of themselves being victimized.
Even the context in your description is dominating and forcing your will on the other person. This is what rape is about, its about control. Its obviously not possible for anything I say to understand that what you and others say can hurt someone. I would also assume that you really don't care why you may hurt by your comments. I expect the typical response of "don't get offended". Maybe you could develop some empathy and try to put yourself in others peoples shoes before you are so quick to make unneeded comments.
Maybe we could all try to expand our vocabulary and try to eliminate these types of words. How hard is it to just say "he got owned" instead.
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Recently it seems like small things have grown completely out of proportion on tl. That orb rages on the ladder and uses some bad words is nothing new and it is in my view not a big deal. Ladder raging happens all the time. Maybe he used a little extreme vocabulary, but who doesn´t get angry after being on a ten game loss streak and being cannoned?
Besides it seems like some people here are being hypocritical, since they obviously tune in on Orb´s stream to see rage and then when it goes overboard they complain it is ´racist´.
Its ridiculous that people take so much offense over usage of words, which are not meant as racist in the used context, but should rather be seen as a random and spontaneous insult.
I will agree that he should have admitted that what he said was extreme, but the fact that this thread was started at all is utterly stupid.
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On March 09 2012 12:43 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:33 Defacer wrote:On March 09 2012 12:29 knOxStarcraft wrote:On March 09 2012 12:23 Utinni wrote:On March 09 2012 12:22 Amlitzer wrote:On March 09 2012 12:00 densha wrote:
I'm surprised (well, I guess not really) that there are people posting here who just don't understand how offensive it is to watch a privileged white kid throw around a word that was forged in human bondage and suffering so freely. He chose to use the most offensive, taboo word in the English language to express simple ladder rage. He literally could have picked anything else to say, even "cunt" obviously doesn't have the history of the N word. It's the history that matters, folks, and the fact that Orb apparently has no regard for such things.
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing but that doesn't mean you're free of the consequences of your speech. If Orb ever casts again, the chat will be constant N word references. He'll always be known (as South Park puts it) as "that nigger guy". Every time I see his face, it will be difficult to take him seriously or not think of the controversy. Is anyone really going to want him casting their games now? Can he serve as the face of an organization now? I do not think so, and that's simply the reality of a "public" figure using the N word and getting caught. Get over yourself, nigger is not even close to the most "taboo" words in existence. The fact that negroes routinely call each other by the term is proof alone of that fact. It's not like he said cunt or kike, now those terms would get you lynched to high heaven. ... you are seriously misguided and ill-informed... its actually the same thing.... wow. How is he misguided exactly? Why can Jay-Z and Kanye release songs titled "Niggas in Paris" and have the word mean nothing more than a song title? Why, when they call eachother niggas does it just mean "other black person" or "friend" or whatever? I am obviously missing something here because if the word is so "emotionally charged" and forever linked to slavery then why the fuck do black people routinely use it? Or does switching the "er" to an "a" make all the difference here..... The difference in intent is obvious. The word has multiple meanings depending on context. It's called the English Language, and that's how it works. There's a difference between calling a woman a bitch, calling the line at supermarket a bitch, and calling your best friend a bitch. Sheesh. Exactly, so people can stop feeding everyone this bullshit about the word being "emotionally charged". It's the way the word is used not the word itself. Depending on what each person think orb was meaning by what he said determines what each person will think of orb and his character from now on
Oh, no one actually thinks Orb is racist. But using a racial slur to denigrate another person is, at the very least, considered culturally-insensitive, juvenile, and frankly, a little douche-y.
I mean, can you imagine Tasteless getting in a huge fight with Artosis on camera and calling him a nigger? Gah! No one would look at him the same way again.
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Honestly, who gives a shit? I say shit like that on the ladder all the time.
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Man I feel left out. How come when I hit orb on ladder I didn't get any of this rage? He didn't gg either, but it was such a boring win without the rage.
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Orb is ruining his own reputation... We are just sitting back eating popcorn watching this crap unfold, lol. If it were not such a big deal, why the need for the "cover up"? And for the folks pointing out that Jay Z / Kanye West released "niggas in paris"... those two bozos are clowns and idiots and believe just because you are rich you speak for an entire group of people.
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On March 09 2012 12:48 naggerNZ wrote:
Honestly, who gives a shit? I say shit like that on the ladder all the time.
You do not represent anyone but yourself on ladder. If you went to an MLG even would you call everyone you lost to an N word?
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People are talking about the wrong thing. We do not need to talk about whether the word nigger is bad. That is not at all what the argument should be about. Yeah, we are all post-conventional morality motherfuckers yes. We realize words convey meanings and are not terrible in of themselves. But that is not the point. There is thing called Society, there are things called social norms (yes we know that we spend 23 hours indoors playing starcraft, but there is this thing called the world), and as a part of that society, we should abide the social norms to be accepted to the entity as a whole. Yes, videogames, are not a social norm. However, if we show we as a culture obey the same social norms that say football or baseball obeys, we can become a part of them. Orb saying the word nigger, is not a part of that social norm. That is a fact, no subjective twist, that is just the way it is. So someone outside our culture, someone who wants to see if we obey the same social norms as they to, as to assimilate us into their culture, they see orb a caster, a figurehead, saying the word nigger (*alot). They say "That is not our social norm, we are not going to accept them". You are hurting Esports by preventing ourselves from being assimilated.
Plus, Orb lying to his OWN community, betraying our trust. Yeah thats bullshit shouldnt happen fire his ass.
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EPT
