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This has been bugging me since long ago, probably since beta.
Protoss Tier 1-1.5 is focused around Warp Gates a lot, which isn't bad. I love the mechanic, and I think it managed to refresh the entire race properly.
But the gateway is pretty useless compared to it. The times have no comparison at all. A chronoboosted gateway can't compete against Warp Gates, unless you're spamming zealots.
But, is this bad?
I think it is.
Protoss have become Warptoss, and that's all. Pretty much every match focuses on them. Warp Gates aren't bad, but the lack of any other option is.
Do you think using gateways should be made more viable, like, rewarding people chronoboosting gateways with faster production times than with warp gates, or maybe even nerfing the warp gates a bit and making them need chronoboost to compete instead?
I don't know, but I don't like that warping units, which is supposed to be the "extra" to be used in certain situations, is much more viable than the classic mechanic. I think it forces the player too much around the same builds again and again.
Opinions?
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Protoss isn't in a great state to be nerfed even one bit. Be careful with your suggestions. ^_^
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This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races.
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Nah, not a problem. Its a upgrade that cost money so it should be better than the non upgraded. Protosses are finally starting to use the mobility to its full extend so it would just mess things up by switching it now.
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On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races.
Considering his icon is a Protoss one, I doubt this is true.
As to the OP, I think warptoss is fine. Considering Warp Gate research is 50/50 and can be gotten with a really early building, it was meant to be the standard for all tier 1/1.5 production. I think it would have been the default (without an upgrade) if that didn't make early Protoss rushes nearly impossible to hold.
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On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races.
The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway).
The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate.
In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed.
Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
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On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
The point is that it's an early game mechanic. It should become useless after.
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I agree with you. I think the warpgate/gateway situation makes no sense. Right now, there is never any reason to have a gateway after warpgate research completes. To me, it seems that gateways should have the faster build time, whereas warpgates should allow you to warp in anywhere. That way, there is an advantage to both. I think this would make the game a little more interesting because protoss players would then have to choose if they want faster units or shorter rally time. Also, the warpgate upgrade wouldn't need to be so ridiculously long.
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On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere...
But it isnt useless, its used in the early game in many different forms of expanding and putting pressure on. Just because its not used all game long doesnt make it worthless.
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I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such.
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My opinion: it's ridiculous, it should only be possible with a warp prism or within a certain radius from a Nexus or something like that. Also it breaks late-game, especially, but not only, vs T, where the Protoss warps in 20 new units instantly after a battle while the opponent has to wait for ages. But yeah they're so used to this that they will most likely demand some silly buff in exchange, which I haven't thought of yet. I genuinely hope it gets fixed some time, because PvX matchups are awful to watch.
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Only thing i question about warpgate/gateway is the fact that blizzard gives us the option to change warp gate back to gateway...what is the purpose for that....I wish they did something where units from gateway get some kind of buff compared to warped in units...but this could also make protoss too strong overall...but if there are no benefits of switching it back to gateway...they might as well remove that option
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On January 06 2012 00:39 discobaas wrote:
My opinion: it's ridiculous, it should only be possible with a warp prism or within a certain radius from a Nexus or something like that. Also it breaks late-game, especially, but not only, vs T, where the Protoss warps in 20 new units instantly after a battle while the opponent has to wait for ages. But yeah they're so used to this that they will most likely demand some silly buff in exchange, which I haven't thought of yet. I genuinely hope it gets fixed some time, because PvX matchups are awful to watch.
Did you make any attempt to read the OP? He's not talking about Warpgates at all. He's talking about Gateways.
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Warpgate is a really dumb mechanic that is holding back the race. Think about this, every time Blizzard or Protosses want their race to be buffed, they have to account for the warpgate advantages, which means they really can't buff Tier1-1.5 units at all. The only thing that should be able to warp stuff around the map is a late game upgrade or Warp prism, which should also come later. Warp gate has held back the Protoss race more than anything, scrap this unbalance-able mechanic, buff Protoss gateway units, and we can proceed to really balance this game to BW levels.
No, I do not want BW, I like SC2, but warpgate is really holding back our race diversity and progression. But wait, doesn't removal of Warpgates negate diversity, well yes but no. Without warpgates blizzard can give Protoss other things they been cryin for because they won't have certain tactics that are abusable with warpgates.
As a Protoss player from the beginning of the game, it's really annoying that Tier1-1.5 units are balanced around the fact that you can warp them at a proxy pylon, and reinforce an enemy's front instantly. Meaning they are balanced around the fact they should trade evenly against a player that you are doing a timing attack on with defender's advantage (Terran with bunkers, Zerg with spine's), but when you are defending, your T1-1.5 units are weaker because they have no defender's advantage. I don't explain it well but this post does.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263636
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I agree that Gateway units should produce faster than Warpgated units.
its just stupid that gateways dont have any purpose as soon as warpgates are avaible
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I think if the game would have came out with GW having faster production than WG or something (maybe only GW can be CB'd but WG can't etc..). However, with the current state of the game I don't see a reason to either nerf WG or buff GW (everyone would proxy 2 gate).
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This is a good thing to bring up. I think it revolves around the new macro mechanics in sc2. But protoss has no choice, it cant be nerfed more or it'll end up being more terrible
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I think using warpgates is just an aspect of the game. I think I've seen White Ra leave it a while before researching it but it's just a game mechanic that, I feel, almost has to be used.
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On January 06 2012 00:38 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 00:34 Hoon wrote:On January 06 2012 00:29 JOJOsc2news wrote:
This looks like you have been facing a lot of warp in harrassment and now you want warpgate to be nerfed.
I think the mechanic is fine as it is, especially with mechanics like inject and reactors for the other races. The problem is that there is a mechanic that is completely useless on the game (gateway). The only use of a gateway is to morph it into a warpgate. In game design, when there's something as 'useless' as the gateway, it means it is badly designed. Maybe if they make build time with gateways faster, so the player has to choose between faster production or warp in anywhere... But it isnt useless, its used in the early game in many different forms of expanding and putting pressure on. Just because its not used all game long doesnt make it worthless.
That's is the problem.
It is used only in the early game. No one thinks about going back to gateway later.
Blizzard noticed this problem in WoW. There were some spells there were used only at low levels, so they reworked then/removed them from the game.
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On January 06 2012 00:38 Raif wrote:
I think this is like saying that the command center is useless,
I can see the lack of use, but I think it is fin as it is, you can still use them for rushes and such.
Great point about regular command centers. It's indeed exactly the same. Certain techs in the game are expected to be used and replace obsolete ones, that's how Blizzard designed it.
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EPT
