In 1999, german soccer player Thorsten Legat was fired by his team, multiple Bundesliga champion VfB Stuttgart, for what he claimed was a joke in the team cabines about "nigger juice" (regarding a photo of a black player of the VfB holding a water bottle). That is only one of many cases where professional athletes faced grave consequences for intolerable behaviour, I'm sure every fan of any sport can think of some.
Just yesterday ClouD from team Alternate Attax posted this in the "Bulgarian Riots" thread here on TL:
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
User was temp banned for this post.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
On September 27 2011 21:52 aTnClouD wrote: I am amazed at how stupid people can pull out the nazi card whenever they feel like. Like it or not the gypsy problem is there and it can't be solved through conventional methods cause they refuse integration more than anyone else. They litteraly live off criminality and that's pretty much all they can do.
Now I wonder, will his team do the right thing and at least release a statement about this incident? Do you guys think mailing them would help? What is your opinion in general?
Please do NOT discuss the topic of the so called "gypsies problem" in this thread. I'd like to keep eSports unpolitical and have a good time with everyone, but there has to be a line where things that players say and write are not tolerated. I am nothing but disgusted by those posts and would like to never see him in a tournament again.
At least the mods did a good job, a big thank you for not tolerating racism on TL!
I wonder which part of Italy Cloud is from. Here in the north, sadly lots of people are borderline racist (lega nord is the worst political part every)
I think we can discuss this in the ABL and be done with it. Saying who cares is an understatement but an entire thread devoted to one players politically incorrect statements seems like a bit much.
edited out the long bit: See post directly above me^^^
It has nothing to do with Sc2, why are you making this thread if you want "to keep eSports unpolitical" ? You are making a thread to get him banned from all tournaments ? Really ?
Special thread for this... it's like asking for drama... And yes, ClouD has a point that most Gypsies do NOT work and depend on social help from the government.
When did gypsies become a race? I think the word you're looking for is prejudice. Anyways I don't live in Europe so who knows he could be right about gypsies
On September 28 2011 19:53 KinQuh wrote: Idra calls everyone a retard..Discuss?
Well surely that is fine then... he hates everyone equally.
Seriously though, that is not on, i am half spanish and spain is comprised of a HUGE gypsy population, and saying that they cannot integrate is simply untrue, the entire culture of flamenco music exists from gypsy roots.
i honestly think you are making unnecessary fuss. cloud crossed a line he shouldn't have crossed and got banned for it. I'm positive he will learn his lesson as he is actually a pretty nice guy (i always thought).
Someone said something that wasn't PC on the internet! SOUND THE ALARMS! ALERT THE WORLD LEADERS! DOOMSDAY IS COMING!
Seriously? I can't believe in this day and age that people would get so worked up about something someone said on the internet. Especially something like that. Should he probably keep that kind of stuff to himself to help with his own professional image and team's image? Definitely, but I don't see how it's any different than any other stupid bull shit that's been happening on the internet since it's inception.
This thread only gives a bad image of Cloud and should be closed. I really think things like this are unnecessary. You should not start a crusade against him like this.
However, the only fault of Cloud is to express his opinion under the tag of his team.
On September 28 2011 19:56 RmoteCntrld wrote: When did gypsies become a race? I think the word you're looking for is prejudice. Anyways I don't live in Europe so who knows he could be right about gypsies
...
so if you've never met a particular ethnicity of humans, but someone tells you we should kill them all indiscriminately, you'd believe him?
On September 28 2011 19:57 Allwars wrote: This thread only gives a bad image of Cloud and should be closed. I really think things like this are unnecessary. You should not start a crusade against him like this.
However, the only fault of Cloud is to express his opinion under the tag of his team.
On September 28 2011 19:55 Tofugrinder wrote: the right thing to do from aTn's point of view would be to immediately release him from the team. But we all know that this won't happen..
cloud lives with the teammanager in same house ^^
cloud has a big .... temperament. you should not take him to serious
... well theres a reason such things should stay out of esport forums.... all kinds of persons play sc2 also some that feels rly different then others and such aereas about politic etc should not be in the same forum then esports stuff
On September 28 2011 19:55 Sated wrote: Gypsy isn't a race. Hence, the comments aren't racist.
Advocating discrimination, and genocide, against ethnicities is wrong no matter what word choice lawyering you try to do.
The Jewish ethnicity isn't a race either.
I didn't say it was right, I said it wasn't racist.
so what's the purpose of your post? discrimination against ethnicities is just as wrong as discrimination against races. there's nothing wrong with racism being conflicted with discrimination against ethnicities, because they amount to the same thing
On September 28 2011 19:54 clazerxsniper wrote: unless you've had gypsies steal from and met them face to face, i would recommend not giving your opinion on this.
My ex girlfriend is a gypsy. Clouds comments are bollocks.
Ironic how he scoffs at people bringing out the 'nazi card' when he says above that the 'solution' is to kill as many as you can. He could claim that was a (really awful?) joke, but combined with the 'plague on humanity' stuff it starts to look like straight up racism.
On September 28 2011 19:57 Allwars wrote: This thread only gives a bad image of Cloud and should be closed. I really think things like this are unnecessary. You should not start a crusade against him like this.
However, the only fault of Cloud is to express his opinion under the tag of his team.
of course he gets bad image. I really hope so - if he's making that kind of racist comments at least I hope he looses lots of his fans. On TL he only got a 2 day ban so that won't effect him at all
This should made public (e.g. this thread) so that people know who Cloud really is
On September 28 2011 19:55 Sated wrote: Gypsy isn't a race. Hence, the comments aren't racist.
Advocating discrimination, and genocide, against ethnicities is wrong no matter what word choice lawyering you try to do.
The Jewish ethnicity isn't a race either.
I didn't say it was right, I said it wasn't racist.
so what's the purpose of your post? discrimination against ethnicities is just as wrong as discrimination against races. there's nothing wrong with racism being conflicted with discrimination against ethnicities, because they amount to the same thing
he just called him out on a wrong usage of terms, he didnt judge whether it made it better or worse at all, calm down
On September 28 2011 19:55 Boblion wrote: It has nothing to do with Sc2, why are you making this thread if you want "to keep eSports unpolitical" ? You are making a thread to get him banned from all tournaments ? Really ?
What I meant with that is that I have my own political opinions and might express them in discussions on TL, but I don't want to generally politicize eSports. But should players be allowed to publicly state blatently racist things? In EVERY other sport that would not be tolerated for one minute by a professional team, but hey, this is the internet, so what right? So of course this does matter, so long as eSports matter.
On September 28 2011 19:54 clazerxsniper wrote: unless you've had gypsies steal from and met them face to face, i would recommend not giving your opinion on this.
That thing happens all day every day in my hometown and I know what it looks like. I won't give that much of a detailed comment on the issue itself, but what cloud says is damn true. There might be some issues with his wording of choice, but what he says is true. They literally make a living off criminal act.
On September 28 2011 19:55 Sated wrote: "Gypsy" isn't a race. Hence, the comments aren't racist.
EDIT:
"Gypsy" is a culture, a completely different thing to a race. What you are saying about Cloud is like me saying someone making comments about "Emo" kids is racist, since "Emo" is also a culture. Herpaderp.
This is my opinion aswell, even tho cloud should have a ban like TL did and theres nothing else to talk about.... someone said something bad and god punished the end!
On September 28 2011 19:57 Allwars wrote: This thread only gives a bad image of Cloud and should be closed. I really think things like this are unnecessary. You should not start a crusade against him like this.
However, the only fault of Cloud is to express his opinion under the tag of his team.
of course he gets bad image. I really hope so - if he's making that kind of racist comments at least I hope he looses lots of his fans. On TL he only got a 2 day ban so that won't effect him at all
This should made public (e.g. this thread) so that people know who Cloud really is
completely agree with this
public figures should be called out when they are a menace to society, and people should not wrongly admire them when they are scum
On September 28 2011 19:54 clazerxsniper wrote: unless you've had gypsies steal from and met them face to face, i would recommend not giving your opinion on this.
My ex girlfriend is a gypsy. Clouds comments are bollocks.
Ironic how he scoffs at people bringing out the 'nazi card' when he says above that the 'solution' is to kill as many as you can. He could claim that was a (really awful?) joke, but combined with the 'plague on humanity' stuff it starts to look like straight up racism.
You are British, British gypsies are a far far far far far different thing to the inland European variant.
Cloud crossed a line there, it wasn't even "only" a racist comment, he actually proposed killing people as a "solution". You actually think he shouldn't be called out on that?
It doesn't really matter if he said it on the internet, in an interview or any other occasion. He said it publically and he should face consequences for it.
I don't get why people hate everyone who says some races are different. Are people who says that not allowed to express their opinions?
Idra said something bad about french canadians on his stream once but i don't see any threads about it. But on the other hand I guess people don't mind because they're white.
On September 28 2011 20:00 Technique wrote: If you want pros to reply on forums like this, you should not single out their posts when they voice there opinion on non game related stuff.
You can agree/disagree with him in that particular topic, but making a topic about it is just lame.
i agree, this case was not related to sc2, hence his stance is as equal as any other, even if what he says is BAD, its still his opinion on non-sc2 related topic, making topic like this is just witch-hunt.
On September 28 2011 19:55 Sated wrote: Gypsy isn't a race. Hence, the comments aren't racist.
Advocating discrimination, and genocide, against ethnicities is wrong no matter what word choice lawyering you try to do.
The Jewish ethnicity isn't a race either.
I didn't say it was right, I said it wasn't racist.
so what's the purpose of your post? discrimination against ethnicities is just as wrong as discrimination against races. there's nothing wrong with racism being conflicted with discrimination against ethnicities, because they amount to the same thing
Considering that we have no standardised definition for race and ethnicity, I think we can safely group prejudice against either under 'racism'.
In this country gypsies are provided protection under the Race Relations Act.
Punishing Cloud is essentially at the same level as his own hostile reaction to the problem he discusses. In both cases, there are better approaches. The OP may not believe it, but it is possible to reason with Cloud on a personal level, instead of releasing him from a team, or fining him. Similarly, Cloud may not believe it, but it's possible to deal with any cultural problem with strictly cultural methods, without violence. All I see in Cloud's statement is that he's desperate and he doesn't have any idea what else to do to resolve such problem, and it's a really significant problem for a group of people (nation) he cares about.
Since i'm a bulgarian, i'm behind Cloud on this, you have to live with them to know actually what are the gypsy's, you can found an Sarkosi's statment about the gypsy's nobody actually wants them, they don't wanna adapt and live in any kind of society thats the truth. Sorry for the poor english.
i cant blame cloud for thinking this way because gypsy's are so terrible and those who never had to interact with them should not speak but rly I think he should keep it him self
As was stated above. Being a gypsy is a way of living. It is not a race, and I have to agree with aTnClouD's comments about them. They are not nice people. They do not live by law. Yet they are allowed to get away with so much. Note I am not being racist. I am expressing my own opinion of a way of life that is very untrue to our society. Much like the same way that I can complain about a corrupt government running our countries. You are only bringing this up because ClouD has somewhat fame under his name and should show respect. But we are all human. We all have our opinions, be them right or wrong. If I (a mere nobody in the starcraft scene) were to say all that would you make this thread about me? Ha! I highly doubt it. Even if so what are you aiming to achieve by calling someone out for their own opinions. It's almost political. It's a joke.
On September 28 2011 20:02 Sandtrout wrote: Cloud crossed a line there, it wasn't even "only" a racist comment, he actually proposed killing people as a "solution". You actually think he shouldn't be called out on that?
It doesn't really matter if he said it on the internet, in an interview or any other occasion. He said it publically and he should face consequences for it.
Why? Because his policital opinion is different than 95% of the populations'?
"I'd like to keep eSports unpolitical and have a good time with everyone"
-procedes to create a thread where he acuses a esport player of racist and political comments..
Gipsy problem is real, go and read the thread if you don't believe it and let cloud say what he thinks, you are not a judge to put this on a public forum and try and end his career.
Do you hate him so much? Like he hates gipsys? hmm you racist..
On September 28 2011 19:55 Sated wrote: Gypsy isn't a race. Hence, the comments aren't racist.
Advocating discrimination, and genocide, against ethnicities is wrong no matter what word choice lawyering you try to do.
The Jewish ethnicity isn't a race either.
I didn't say it was right, I said it wasn't racist.
so what's the purpose of your post? discrimination against ethnicities is just as wrong as discrimination against races. there's nothing wrong with racism being conflicted with discrimination against ethnicities, because they amount to the same thing
The OP is making a claim about Cloud that is based on comparing his statements with the blatantly racist comments of a football player. As Cloud wasn't being racist, this thread is stupid.
People who now discuss if "gypsies" are a "race" or not are not only wrong, they don't get the first bit of the problem. A Starcraft 2 player said publicly that an entire group of humans should be killed. You could replace "gypsies" with "Halo players" for all I care, that wouldn't be racist, true, but still absolutely intolerable.
On September 28 2011 19:54 clazerxsniper wrote: unless you've had gypsies steal from and met them face to face, i would recommend not giving your opinion on this.
My ex girlfriend is a gypsy. Clouds comments are bollocks.
Ironic how he scoffs at people bringing out the 'nazi card' when he says above that the 'solution' is to kill as many as you can. He could claim that was a (really awful?) joke, but combined with the 'plague on humanity' stuff it starts to look like straight up racism.
You are British, British gypsies are a far far far far far different thing to the inland European variant.
No they aren't. Many of the Roma gypsies have arrived relatively recently from Eastern Europe.
If you substitute "criminal" for "gypsy" you have in those comments the common attitude of most Americans, despite a documented history of decades of racial inequality perpetuated through ongoing wars on crime, drugs, and terror. Whats appalling isn't the racist aspect of these comments, its the dehumanization and disregard for the value of human life as a motivation for violence, and in that regard almost everyone who lives in the western (and probably entire) world has had this kind of attitude normalized and directed at some or another group of people. If you can feel the same way as Cloud about any group, even if its today's demon population of sex offenders or terrorists, you are absolutely just as emotionally crippled and dangerous as someone who makes these kinds of "racist" comments.
Why do people like you want to cause drama when there's no need. I read those comments yesterday and didn't even realise this cloud guy posted them. I'm sure most people read them and were not that bothered by them, the gypsy situation is pretty bad in some areas.
The terrorist thing was too far, but the rest was basically true (in general) of the gypsy community. He has every right to be very mad at these people considering they refuse to work, follow the law and even treat their children properly.
Yeah going to close this crusade based on a flawed premise. A topic about professional players/sportsmen acting professionally and upholding a standard I could get behind but this isn't it.
EPT
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