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Many people seem to be upset with Zerg scouting at the moment. The primary argument is that Protoss and Terran can wall off and with a handful of units prevent any scouting. As a Zerg myself I have never had a problem with scouting and I would like to share my thoughts. Feel free to correct me 
First some stats.
Cost
Scan 250-300 Minerals
Overlord 100 Minerals
Sight
Scan 13
Overlord 11
Overlord
Pro:
Provides supply
Can move
Has the possibly of surviving
Provides permanent sight
Can build as many as needed
Cons:
Extremely slow
They can die.
Scan
Pro:
Provides Instant vision anywhere on the map
Large sight radius
Covenant
Cons:
Expensive
Only lasts for about 13s
Potential to miss critical tech structures
What I'm hoping to prove with this is that Overlord scouting is far superiors to scan. Almost 3 Overlords can be built for the cost of a single scan and they can provide much more information. If you suicide one overlord 80%-90% of the time you will be able to figure out what his tech path is. Combine this with a Zergling or Drone scout at the ramp and your golden. All at the third of the cost of a single scan. Follow up with additional overlords around the ring of his bass to continually poke in and you will have almost complete scouting information all game long. All this for the cost of 100 Minerals and a sacrificed overlord. In comparison think about how many minerals a Terran will waste by scanning you multiple times throughout the game?
This isn't restricted to TvZ the principle remains the same Protoss and Zerg.
I personally think that Zergs are going to have to start thinking of Overlords as a resource and a unit not just supply.
So tell me what you think 
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Scan doesn't cost anything, it only costs energy and if you don't choose to scan sure you miss out some minerals gained but the minerals are still there for catch. An overlord can easily be denied while a scan can not be denied and an overlord can miss critical tech structures aswell. If you say that a scan is worth 300 minerals that means a building is worth infinite minerals as a mining drone is lost to become a building.
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The issue is that with proper placement and base awareness, a terran can deny any sort of actual overlord scouting with merely 3-4 marines. I guess overlord scouting on protoss is better, but then again bases are big enough for them to be able to hide something pretty easily.
IMO it's not THAT big of deal, because there are builds than can prepare for almost anything.
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Overlords cost larvae too. This is kinda important, because it means that every overlord you sacrifice to scout is a drone you do not get.
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On May 13 2011 22:52 Olsson wrote:
Scan doesn't cost anything, it only costs energy and if you don't choose to scan sure you miss out some minerals gained but the minerals are still there for catch. An overlord can easily be denied while a scan can not be denied and an overlord can miss critical tech structures aswell. If you say that a scan is worth 300 minerals that means a building is worth infinite minerals as a mining drone is lost to become a building.
I dont agree with that at all. Scans dont really cost minerals directly, they cost income boost, which relates to minerals easily. Transforming a drone in a building only makes the building 50 minerals more, because that drone was created for the sole purpose of becoming that building. Furthermore, that drone might even had the time to mine a little bit and reduce its cost.
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Scan is still 10x more viable than overlord scout. A scout at 9 minutes (when you have overlord speed in average) isnt even neccesary as you can probably peek at the front at that time and see the composition. And all dangerous cheeses and openings have already been completed within 9 minutes.
On May 13 2011 22:56 Ghoststrikes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:52 Olsson wrote:
Scan doesn't cost anything, it only costs energy and if you don't choose to scan sure you miss out some minerals gained but the minerals are still there for catch. An overlord can easily be denied while a scan can not be denied and an overlord can miss critical tech structures aswell. If you say that a scan is worth 300 minerals that means a building is worth infinite minerals as a mining drone is lost to become a building. I dont agree with that at all. Scans dont really cost minerals directly, they cost income boost, which relates to minerals easily. Transforming a drone in a building only makes the building 50 minerals more, because that drone was created for the sole purpose of becoming that building. Furthermore, that drone might even had the time to mine a little bit and reduce its cost.
Agree? This is not a matter of agreeing its just fact. In the same way as you chose to use your energy in that way we chose to use our drone in that way. It's the same exact thing and if you deny it you'll have to explain further with proper facts and reason and not just things that you think.
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On May 13 2011 22:52 Olsson wrote:
Scan doesn't cost anything, it only costs energy and if you don't choose to scan sure you miss out some minerals gained but the minerals are still there for catch. An overlord can easily be denied while a scan can not be denied and an overlord can miss critical tech structures aswell. If you say that a scan is worth 300 minerals that means a building is worth infinite minerals as a mining drone is lost to become a building.
I Mule will will provide a guaranteed X amount of minerals by deciding to scan the Terran is saying "I'm going to spend that potential money and instead use it on scouting". I have played Terran a little and if you spend you energy on scan instead of Mules the difference is noticeable.
Even if they prevent the overlord from scouting you still learn sooo much. What units did he use? How many? Where were they placed? What tech structures did you see? At the ram what do you see? How does it correspond with what your overlords sees?
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On May 13 2011 22:49 Matharos wrote:
As a Zerg myself I have never had a problem with scouting...
You must be the greatest Zerg player EVER!!
Time to give the pros some lessons on how they're doing it wrong.
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On May 13 2011 22:57 Olsson wrote:
Scan is still 10x more viable than overlord scout. A scout at 9 minutes (when you have overlord speed in average) isnt even neccesary as you can probably peek at the front at that time and see the composition. And all dangerous cheeses and openings have already been completed within 9 minutes.
But you don't need overlords speed to use them I always send my first 3 Overlords to scout and always plan on losing at least one. If you plan your build around that it helps so much.
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I'm not sure "provides supply" is a pro when you are using them to scout with unless you like risking supply blocks.
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Scan 250-300 Minerals
Why do people say that? A scan does not cost minerals! Yes it means you can't call down a mule which would get you minerals faster but if you don't call down a mule you will still gain those minerals. Also you are 100% sure to see whatever you scan, with a overlord you can be denied soo easily.
I spreed my overlords around the hole map pooping goop on expos and in possitions to spot drops. I'll sacrafice overlords at times, sending them in at different angles to try and see whats gonig on. All terran has to do is 1 scan and then can see exacly what tech i've got, unless i spred it out to multiple expos, leaving it vulnerable. The other answer is to proxy them but by the time i can proxy buildings (lair tech) the cost of the buildings is such that it is not worth it, and as soon as they see my unit comp (scan) they know everything about my army and can take steps to counter it.
I will say though i saw a video of ROOTdestiny <3 playing a ZvZ and he proxied a spire in the guys base for lols and managed to win fairly convincingly even after being banelinged, definatly recommend watching it
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On May 13 2011 22:58 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:49 Matharos wrote:
As a Zerg myself I have never had a problem with scouting... You must be the greatest Zerg player EVER!! Time to give the pros some lessons on how they're doing it wrong.
lol I'm in no way the best. But I have never had a problem with getting an idea about what they are doing or plan to do.
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On May 13 2011 22:58 Matharos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:52 Olsson wrote:
Scan doesn't cost anything, it only costs energy and if you don't choose to scan sure you miss out some minerals gained but the minerals are still there for catch. An overlord can easily be denied while a scan can not be denied and an overlord can miss critical tech structures aswell. If you say that a scan is worth 300 minerals that means a building is worth infinite minerals as a mining drone is lost to become a building. I Mule will will provide a guaranteed X amount of minerals by deciding to scan the Terran is saying "I'm going to spend that potential money and instead use it on scouting". I have played Terran a little and if you spend you energy on scan instead of Mules the difference is noticeable. Even if they prevent the overlord from scouting you still learn sooo much. What units did he use? How many? Where were they placed? What tech structures did you see? At the ram what do you see? How does it correspond with what your overlords sees?
1. No good player will move all his units but its normal obvious ones, marines, queen or stalker and not his whole deathball to deny a scout.
2. You are not guaranteed to see it in time nor to go in the right direction.
3. A drone will provide X amount of minerals in its lifetime unless it becomes a building or dies. If it becomes a building then it cant provide money anymore. Same logic that you used.
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On May 13 2011 23:00 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:Why do people say that? A scan does not cost minerals! Yes it means you can't call down a mule which would get you minerals faster but if you don't call down a mule you will still gain those minerals. Also you are 100% sure to see whatever you scan, with a overlord you can be denied soo easily.
You wont "still get those minerals". Starcraft is a game of timing, of course you'd get those minerals when you are mined out and out of expansions to transfer your scv's but that's the least of your worries, you need the minerals now, and yes a scan wastes you 270 potential minerals
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I say scans ARE worth minerals.
At a high level, players will not miss many MULEs. MULEs are the Terran's main means of staying competitive in the economy game. Sure the worker count may even out as the match progresses. At the point when they do even out, MULEs/scan provide a definite advantage.
But look at it this way... imagine making Overlords require you to send energy on your queen and in turn costs you queen injects. That is how I see MULEs as for Terran.
Protoss are able to chrono out probes faster than Terran and Zerg can build multiple drones when the opportunity presents itself. Terran must build SCVs non-stop and will still be behind unless they apply pressure or harass.
As I mentioned before though, scans are less costly during the late game, but at this point, the scans are used less for scouting bases and more for positioning (Is it safe to move out to this location?). Additionally, zerg has its own map awareness and positioning skill, which is the creep tumor.
Secondly, Overlords are required for supply anyways, so they will always be built regardless. This is like having flying supply depots
Sure they cost 100 minerals to remake if they die, but Zerg economy, I believe, is usually able to outpace the Terran unless the Terran puts on some good pressure/harass.
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"If you suicide one overlord 80%-90% of the time you will be able to figure out what his tech path is."
This is what bothers me the most. It's enough with 2-3 marines to completely shut down a Ovi sacc, a good Terran wont keep all he's marines in the front, makeing it easy for the zerg too simply count them, but instead spread them out on key places were Ovi's might try and enter. If you do happen to have a 80-90% succesrate with you're Ovi scouting Terran is doing it wrong.
Besides you don't have an endless supply of ovi's ready too be sacced. Lets take Xel'naga for example, best case scenario you'll have one Ovi below/above the Terran's main and one between the natural and main. If you want too be able too scout tech in time you wont be able too move more Ovi's into position before the 2 port banshee or 6 rax hits.
You might be able too catch a gas timing or get a good marine count and can make a educated guess from there but, in my opinion, there is know way too know for sure unless the Terran lets you see it
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On May 13 2011 23:02 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 22:58 Matharos wrote:On May 13 2011 22:52 Olsson wrote:
Scan doesn't cost anything, it only costs energy and if you don't choose to scan sure you miss out some minerals gained but the minerals are still there for catch. An overlord can easily be denied while a scan can not be denied and an overlord can miss critical tech structures aswell. If you say that a scan is worth 300 minerals that means a building is worth infinite minerals as a mining drone is lost to become a building. I Mule will will provide a guaranteed X amount of minerals by deciding to scan the Terran is saying "I'm going to spend that potential money and instead use it on scouting". I have played Terran a little and if you spend you energy on scan instead of Mules the difference is noticeable. Even if they prevent the overlord from scouting you still learn sooo much. What units did he use? How many? Where were they placed? What tech structures did you see? At the ram what do you see? How does it correspond with what your overlords sees? 1. No good player will move all his units but its normal obvious ones, marines, queen or stalker and not his whole deathball to deny a scout. 2. You are not guaranteed to see it in time nor to go in the right direction. 3. A drone will provide X amount of minerals in its lifetime unless it becomes a building or dies. If it becomes a building then it cant provide money anymore. Same logic that you used.
1. Yes But How many marines does he have? How many Stalkers? If he is moving his Queen from the hatch and maybe missing a marvel inject what is he hiding? You don;t need to see a starport with tech lab to know that Banshees are coming, all you need are the hints. ie gas timing how many barracks? How many marines? What is his building placement?
2. No this is true but with practice you get very good at it, and nothing in this game is going to be 100%
3. Then as zerg I guess you never should build buildings ?
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United States1427 Posts
This thread is pretty terrible and only rehashes some stupid debate that's been closed many times on teamliquid. You're not just comparing the scouting abilities of the two either, you're comparing other things. Look at how much better a supply depot is than a changeling. Supply depot: 400hp, lasts forever, can go up and down, can call supply on. Changling, gets 1-shotted by every unit in the game and provides 0 supply.
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On May 13 2011 23:06 Zypher_ wrote:
"If you suicide one overlord 80%-90% of the time you will be able to figure out what his tech path is."
This is what bothers me the most. It's enough with 2-3 marines to completely shut down a Ovi sacc, a good Terran wont keep all he's marines in the front, makeing it easy for the zerg too simply count them, but instead spread them out on key places were Ovi's might try and enter. If you do happen to have a 80-90% succesrate with you're Ovi scouting Terran is doing it wrong.
I would like to say that if you have a drone or ling at his ramp that is where he will put his marines.
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On May 13 2011 23:07 MoreFaSho wrote:
This thread is pretty terrible and only rehashes some stupid debate that's been closed many times on teamliquid. You're not just comparing the scouting abilities of the two either, you're comparing other things. Look at how much better a supply depot is than a changeling. Supply depot: 400hp, lasts forever, can go up and down, can call supply on. Changling, gets 1-shotted by every unit in the game and provides 0 supply.
Please post a link to a thread were this has been discussed then. I would love to read it.
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EPT
