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I'm basically talking about reapers, hellions, and banshees. Hellions do see some late-game use, but usually not much. With reapers and banshees they both seem to be early game rush units, take your enemy by surprise and win or severely weaken him, or fail and get the unit killed and move on.
Reapers are kind of hobbled by overlapping midgame/lategame roles with the marine, except they can't shoot air and also have a retarded build time. Banshees I think are just hobbled by their expense compared to their durability and usefulness. They don't really do that much damage compared to other units and only hit single targets.
Hellions...I really don't know. They are a bit expensive, I suppose, but I can't think of why they never seem to perform as well as I think they should. I think it's their attack rate, they attack very slowly. In midgame battles when you don't have a lot of time to do lots of kiting micro they just kind of melt and don't do much damage. Like, if you can't one-shot a unit then kite away, then one shot another, Hellions don't do so well.
I beef a lot in games about under-used units (if you dig back into the past I'm sure you'll find my early posts on the forum being about "what are scouts for?")
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Hellions and Banshees are both good late game.
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Even reapers can be used effectively mid-game.
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banshees are also good late game.... ever see mass marine banshee? it hurts
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As it is Reapers can be used really well in the early game for not only harass but also getting an early expansion up by keeping the enemy in the base and because they cost very low minerals for their build time. However, they fade away in usefulness after any armored units get onto the field(due to the extreme cost-ineffectiveness). I think one way to fix this may be to move the damage they do from +Light to Regular and lower it a bit. Unfortunately this means they could kill the first Stalker and first Queen so I guess that wouldn't work. Maybe lowering the building damage and raising the regular damage might help? I don't know. I think a speed upgrade for Banshees might allow them to be effective(so they'd be like DTs sort of in their harass). Hellions are already good enough as is, I feel.
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The only unit that can't be used lategame is Reaper. Hellions + Infernal Preigniter ABSOLUTELY destroys Lings/Drones/Hydras. Banshees are good if you spotted your opponent lategame going mass Ultras with no adequate anti-air.
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So... We've determined T in fact has a single unit that isn't good in the late game, but is very good situationally in the early game.
This is not a problem.
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I feel that Banshees are not very good in the late game either. Is that just me?
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Reaper and thor are units that are only good for a tiny window. Thor is only useful in the transition from early to mid game, as a stopgap vs both muta and roach. Unfortunately, it is total trash later on against muta.
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I agree that Terran does have a lot of powerful early game units, but that doesn't mean it lacks late game strength.
Solution: Don't make reapers after 3 bases.
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I am not talking about a balance issue, I'm just talking about units that aren't very useful. I think it's a shame.
So... We've determined We have?
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I think your problem with hellions may be that you're trying to use them without the support of the rest of your units late game. In late game, massing hellions to fight any army alone will produce miserable results. But when used as cheap damage soakers (they cost no gas so if you choose a mech heavy army and mule effectively you should have an abundance of minerals), they are pretty effective, and soften up hydras or even roaches fairly well for your tanks, and they are great at baiting your opponents. When playing terran mech in general, hellions are one of the few mobile units that you have to harass your opponents with. They help you maintain map control and torch the enemy's economy anytime you can catch them offguard.
As said before, if your opponent doesnt have sufficient anti air, banshees will punish that with their high fire rate. They are also a lot more effective in high numbers (much like void rays) so keep the first few that you use to harass alive, and they can complement your army later on.
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Hellions...I really don't know. They are a bit expensive, I suppose
Expensive? They are one of the best harassment units in the game and they are mineral-only unit. Hellions are the last unit I would have expected to be called expensive.
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On August 16 2010 13:47 HardcoreBilly wrote: The only unit that can't be used lategame is Reaper. Hellions + Infernal Preigniter ABSOLUTELY destroys Lings/Drones/Hydras. Banshees are good if you spotted your opponent lategame going mass Ultras with no adequate anti-air.
Not vs hydras cost effective atleast unless the person controlling them is 100% noob and lines them or balls them nice for ya just hydras : P
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i have to agree that terran units and upgrades are too highly situational and depend on the right conditions being met for them to have any practical use. turret range, bunker capacity, building hp, seeker missile? i've yet to use any of those in a real game.
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care to elaborate on how much damage terran gets from upgrades, and how their real strength comes in big numbers (thors and tanks come to mind). Terran is strong in the early,mid, and late game. No matter the size of units. Marauders are great en mass, and are great in small skimrishes (2marine 2 maruader 1 reaper vs P poke is very effective). MMM Ghost is very very efficient, even with psi storms it seems to roll through a protoss army even un upgraded. And yet even the ghost emp 3rax push is very strong (Small numbers of units). Terran army is strong no matter what the size. It's so versalite, so mobile (besides mech) and the units are very cost efficient. Paired with mules, eww.
Reapers, eg, 3rax reaper build, Very very strong vs zerg. Delayed reapers are also very strong (2marine 2 marauder 1 reaper poke vs protoss) Banshees are strong all game long, there are MANY terran styles that utilyze banshee + raven with bio for PDD to shutdown protoss army composition completetly. The game is not found out yet so players have not found the subtle timing when these units can be used again effectively past their initial omfg banshee cloak rush shock and awe.
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Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races. Its advantage against Z lies in the early-mid game unless the Z is bad and chooses to stay in early-mid game tech (which is what is happening, and why bad Z is losing). T has less of an advantage v P early-game (only real advantage is the timing where T has ghosts and P doesn't have HT) which is why TvP is imbalanced the other way (again unless the P player is bad and sits on low tech).
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On August 16 2010 13:40 GobIin wrote: Hellions and Banshees are both good late game. My thoughts exactly, especially vs zerg
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On August 16 2010 15:05 oxxo wrote: Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races.
This is funny. Terran has a weak lategame. Thanks for the laughter. <3
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On August 16 2010 15:05 oxxo wrote: Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races. Its advantage against Z lies in the early-mid game unless the Z is bad and chooses to stay in early-mid game tech (which is what is happening, and why bad Z is losing). T has less of an advantage v P early-game (only real advantage is the timing where T has ghosts and P doesn't have HT) which is why TvP is imbalanced the other way (again unless the P player is bad and sits on low tech).
dont build bio only. T lategame is perfectly fine. be it cruisers or 3-3 mech/biomech/ghostmech rollin out.
calling Ts lategame "by far the weakest" is just as stupid as all those zerg whiners flooding the forums. cant you guys ever post without heavy QQ about balance?
ontopic:
only agree on reapers. while hellions and banshees both have rather limited use at the later stages they have clear roles which keep em strong if used in the right occasions. if you just spam hellions/banshees for no reason they suck yeah. use em when needed/smart and they are completly fine.
only the reaper is imho a big design fail by blizz. from almost a bit too strong in some builds to "lol you wasted gas on reapers " in just a few minutes of the game is just weird.
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On August 16 2010 15:13 Cranberries wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:05 oxxo wrote: Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races. This is funny. Terran has a weak lategame. Thanks for the laughter. <3
I don't see what's so funny about it. Terran has the strongest midgame (defined as before storms in TvP and before Ultras in TvZ) but Terran has no counter to ultras or storms lategame.
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Terran has also units which are very strong lategame -.-... Forgot tanks/bc's/ghosts/hellions?
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On August 16 2010 15:15 iEchoic wrote: Terran has no counter to ultras or storms lategame. EMP Marauder Tank
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On August 16 2010 15:15 iEchoic wrote: I don't see what's so funny about it. Terran has the strongest midgame (defined as before storms in TvP and before Ultras in TvZ) but Terran has no counter to ultras or storms lategame.
No counter to Psi-Storm or Ultralisks? I don't want to teach you how to play your own race (I assume you play Terran), but really, I suggest you look at your units and look at specific units in general which seem to be designed for taking out Ultralisks and removing aspects of Psi-Storm which are damaging.
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On August 16 2010 15:15 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:13 Cranberries wrote:On August 16 2010 15:05 oxxo wrote: Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races. This is funny. Terran has a weak lategame. Thanks for the laughter. <3 I don't see what's so funny about it. Terran has the strongest midgame (defined as before storms in TvP and before Ultras in TvZ) but Terran has no counter to ultras or storms lategame.
Anti-Ultras: Thors with SCVs, Micro'd Stim Marines/Marauders, Well guarded Tank placements, and the long time it takes to kill the Zerg player before he even techs to Ultra
Anti-High Templar- Mech, Medivac w/ Micro'd Marines/Marauders
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On August 16 2010 15:15 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:13 Cranberries wrote:On August 16 2010 15:05 oxxo wrote: Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races. This is funny. Terran has a weak lategame. Thanks for the laughter. <3 I don't see what's so funny about it. Terran has the strongest midgame (defined as before storms in TvP and before Ultras in TvZ) but Terran has no counter to ultras or storms lategame. not really... you just dont have a wtfbbq100units with 1 unit hard counter for them.
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I feel like this thread is like a slap in the face to every SC2 player who does not play Terran. As noted in previous polls, almost 70% of the users on Team Liquid view Terran as the strongest race. Yes, reapers have issues with late-game viability but banshees and hellions certainly do not. Having five banshees in a late-game army vs Protoss is very strong for one - and they're also great for late-game harass as well. Hellions late-game are perfect counters to to zealot front lines and to many units Zerg has.
Terran certainly do not need any buffs...
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Terran has one unit that's only good early and that one unit isn't even good. That's the reaper. Reapers suck. Period. No matter when. Early, mid, late. It sucks.
Hellions w/ blue flames absolutely rape light units. They are in no way bad or semi-bad or not good late game. Banshees are useful late game if you're going heavy air. They require some kind of support, usually vikings, but they're plenty powerful with their insane 20+ damage a volley attack.
OP doesn't know wtf he's talking about.
EDIT: Also, banshees are ridiculously powerful in mass, as well. Their dps is nothing to scoff at. They're especially powerful in mass against Protoss, who has the weakest anti-air out of the three races. Vikings+Banshees with Raven support is near impossible for Protoss to beat if Terran can get them in large enough numbers. All Protoss's anti-air (except cannons) are stopped by PDD.
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What? Tanks and maruders do just fine against ultras. And...ultras are supposed to counter them. EMP works wonders against storm. HSM works well against storm.
Hellions are very good for raiding mineral lines out of drops, or just running in to unprotected expansions.
Banshees are very good with decent micro. Don't just sit there taking damage while they are cooling down.
Reapers are meh outside of early game. They have SOME applications, but....very, very situational.
3-3 Mech or biomech is pretty much some of the strongest stuff out there. Even tank viking is strong against...pretty much everything.
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Yeah, Terran needs more useful units. Terran is UP. Buff Terran!!!
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On August 16 2010 15:26 HardcoreBilly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:15 iEchoic wrote:On August 16 2010 15:13 Cranberries wrote:On August 16 2010 15:05 oxxo wrote: Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races. This is funny. Terran has a weak lategame. Thanks for the laughter. <3 I don't see what's so funny about it. Terran has the strongest midgame (defined as before storms in TvP and before Ultras in TvZ) but Terran has no counter to ultras or storms lategame. Anti-Ultras: Thors with SCVs, Micro'd Stim Marines/Marauders, Well guarded Tank placements, and the long time it takes to kill the Zerg player before he even techs to Ultra
Thors with SCVs? What? Ultras do AoE damage. Marines do nothing to ultras. The only possible counter are well-microed marauders but if the Z player fungals you then you can't micro at all.
I'm not saying Terran is underpowered, just that the guy who originally said that was right - lategame isn't Terran's biggest strength, midgame is.
The people saying EMP counters storm are being kind of goofy, that only happens at 400 diamond when P players put their templars in one control group and move them in a giant ball.
I wish reaper would increase in tech requirement (i.e. require an engineering bay or something) so they could decrease the build time and make them useful without breaking the earlygame.
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I didn't say anything about nerfing or buffing. I can see the chip on your shoulders though. I just wanted to discuss the units.
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On August 16 2010 15:48 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 15:26 HardcoreBilly wrote:On August 16 2010 15:15 iEchoic wrote:On August 16 2010 15:13 Cranberries wrote:On August 16 2010 15:05 oxxo wrote: Don't know what people are thinking in here. T has by far the weakest late game out of the 3 races. This is funny. Terran has a weak lategame. Thanks for the laughter. <3 I don't see what's so funny about it. Terran has the strongest midgame (defined as before storms in TvP and before Ultras in TvZ) but Terran has no counter to ultras or storms lategame. Anti-Ultras: Thors with SCVs, Micro'd Stim Marines/Marauders, Well guarded Tank placements, and the long time it takes to kill the Zerg player before he even techs to Ultra Thors with SCVs? What? Ultras do AoE damage. Marines do nothing to ultras. The only possible counter are well-microed marauders but if the Z player fungals you then you can't micro at all. I'm not saying Terran is underpowered, just that the guy who originally said that was right - lategame isn't Terran's biggest strength, midgame is. The people saying EMP counters storm are being kind of goofy, that only happens at 400 diamond when P players put their templars in one control group and move them in a giant ball. I wish reaper would increase in tech requirement (i.e. require an engineering bay or something) so they could decrease the build time and make them useful without breaking the earlygame.
I completely agree that late game isn't Terran's biggest strength, but to say nothing counters Ultras late game would be false. Nothing hardcounters Ultras, but a good player can make Ultras not as ruthless as it seems through (like I said), placement and micro. Just place your SCVs behind the Ultras and they will remain unscathed.
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On August 16 2010 13:40 GobIin wrote: Hellions and Banshees are both good late game.
*Shudders* Hellions....my poor chargelots :/
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Hellions are bad late game? Lol...guess probes/drones/scvs dont exist in the late game either.
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So you're saying reapers are bad late game and something should be done about this ignoring the fact you can flat out win the game with them early?
Ok..
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hellions are super good lategame as tehy do splash and burn away your piled up minerals, and banshees can win you the game if you just mix in some in your army comp. Reaers late game, i never saw any1 use them, probably it's not effetive, though i wouldnt bet my house on it that it canot work
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On August 16 2010 16:07 Tump wrote: Hellions are bad late game? Lol...guess probes/drones/scvs dont exist in the late game either.
At lower diamond and below hellions are not that good for late game harass since no one below 400 can handle late game macro. Burning away 20 drones does not matter if your opponent can't spend the minerals anyway.
Not saying that the game should be balanced around anything but the top 1% of players. Just wanted to give some perspective.
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