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On July 15 2010 12:13 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 12:09 Ichabod wrote:
Philosopher King > Representative Republic > Chinese Communism > Pure Democracy
A little opinionated, but in a representative republic, at least the leaders are held directly accountable for their actions. Philosopher Kings? You mean like Mao, Stalin, Khomenei, etc.? Because in their minds, they were.
Not only did they think they were, they actually were in reality, it just turns out Platos ideas of an ideal "republic" are simply tyrannical bullshit. I mean he thought art was worthless and non-instructional books should be burnt among a host of other things. Being a "philosopher king" is almost a contradiction because philosophy thrives in an environment that contains a wide variety of ideas, not ruled by any single one.
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On July 15 2010 12:13 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 12:09 Ichabod wrote:
Philosopher King > Representative Republic > Chinese Communism > Pure Democracy
A little opinionated, but in a representative republic, at least the leaders are held directly accountable for their actions. Philosopher Kings? You mean like Mao, Stalin, Khomenei, etc.? Because in their minds, they were. I'm not sure that The Republic is really applicable to anything anymore.
I think a constitutional monarchy is what he is referring to. When the king is the ultimate authority, but still has to obey the liberties of his citizens. I've never really seen a good example that worked. It's possible, but not likely. I think a constitutional military republic is more likely.
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On July 15 2010 11:03 trugbylight wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 10:52 Sabu113 wrote:
In the end, if there's bread on the table no one's going to bother with the question.
Now here's an interesting question; Have singapore and China created Plato's republic? Guardian Philosophers(scientists) managing and protecting the herd? I believe people with high IQ are naturally more prone to avoid corruption. Nikola Tesla is a good example, he knew that if he sold out to Westinghouse he would be the richest man in the world but in exchange he would create a monopoly that would make many people miserable and poor, so he tore up the contract.
obviously not that smart.
being the richest man in the world gives him the power to help a lot more people than being the poorest genius.
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The kid who I expected to win won. Hell, I voted for him myself. There were plenty of underhanded techniques used by those little kids. That's amazing, yet sad at the same time.
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United States44275 Posts
On July 15 2010 12:08 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 11:58 Yurebis wrote:On July 15 2010 11:53 T.O.P. wrote:
About the Video, It's amazing how much education these kids get. Seems like the one child policy helped force parents to spend all their energy on raising their only child. I feel sorry for the kids though, they have two parents watching their every step making sure that they study all the time. Did the policy give them energy? The policy made parents love their only kid even more. Because they know they will only have one kid in their life. That's why they force their kids to study, play the flute, and run for class monitor. They have high expectations of their kid and they want their kid to live a better life than they lived.
As annoying as it must be to have expectations forced on you I think that overall the mass infanticide is still probably my biggest gripe with the one child policy.
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THe fat kid's mom was pretty good looking
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The video isn't real! Seriously. Videos like this are a dime a dozen in China. It's as staged as Grey's Anatomy. Don't lose your faith in democracy or children!
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On July 15 2010 12:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 12:08 T.O.P. wrote:On July 15 2010 11:58 Yurebis wrote:On July 15 2010 11:53 T.O.P. wrote:
About the Video, It's amazing how much education these kids get. Seems like the one child policy helped force parents to spend all their energy on raising their only child. I feel sorry for the kids though, they have two parents watching their every step making sure that they study all the time. Did the policy give them energy? The policy made parents love their only kid even more. Because they know they will only have one kid in their life. That's why they force their kids to study, play the flute, and run for class monitor. They have high expectations of their kid and they want their kid to live a better life than they lived. As annoying as it must be to have expectations forced on you I think that overall the mass infanticide is still probably my biggest gripe with the one child policy.
Definitely an issue with a one child policy. My other issue is the massive imbalance in the gender ratio. To me, it's disgusting how some people will go through sex-selection abortion just to give birth to a male instead of a female. Makes me wonder if I was a product of such manipulation.
Additionally, when these children come out, as TOP said, a good majority of children are extremely loved by their parents. However, when it's time for them to get used to living alone, they realize that society doesn't pamper them like their parents and some have real tough times adjusting to life on their own.
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On July 15 2010 11:09 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 11:07 Sadist wrote:
enlightened despot is obviously the best government
:OOOO How is it better than an enlightened president in a presidential system where he has the complete support of the legislature (and gets re-elected every time) ?
It isn't, they are essentially the same thing.
On July 15 2010 12:25 Beef Noodles wrote:
The video isn't real! Seriously. Videos like this are a dime a dozen in China. It's as staged as Grey's Anatomy. Don't lose your faith in democracy or children!
Of course it is real, it is in the OP and I am watching it.
+ Show Spoiler +Noone is losing faith in democracy or children, kid
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United States22883 Posts
On July 15 2010 12:28 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 12:21 KwarK wrote:On July 15 2010 12:08 T.O.P. wrote:On July 15 2010 11:58 Yurebis wrote:On July 15 2010 11:53 T.O.P. wrote:
About the Video, It's amazing how much education these kids get. Seems like the one child policy helped force parents to spend all their energy on raising their only child. I feel sorry for the kids though, they have two parents watching their every step making sure that they study all the time. Did the policy give them energy? The policy made parents love their only kid even more. Because they know they will only have one kid in their life. That's why they force their kids to study, play the flute, and run for class monitor. They have high expectations of their kid and they want their kid to live a better life than they lived. As annoying as it must be to have expectations forced on you I think that overall the mass infanticide is still probably my biggest gripe with the one child policy. Definitely an issue with a one child policy. My other issue is the massive imbalance in the gender ratio. To me, it's disgusting how some people will go through sex-selection abortion just to give birth to a male instead of a female. It's a policy problem too. Sausage party = violence and instability. Another sad thing is that the government actually commissioned several studies to predict whether the population growth was sustainable or not and whether something should be preemptively down to slow it down, but Mao ignored it until the problem was unavoidable. :/
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On July 15 2010 12:14 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 12:08 Jibba wrote:On July 15 2010 12:04 darmousseh wrote:
I don't want democracy in the united states! democracy is 2 wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner. Democracy is not what has made america the way it is, america established a constitutional republic with a strict set of guidelines and boundries in order to avoid those wolves from deciding the law. For example, All humans have a right to free speech (except black people and women). The founding fathers saw this as a fundamental human right, not a right established by the government. In a good republic, local governments will have certain rights to govern lives such as taxes to make parks, law enforcement, etc. However, environments in different geographical area are too different to govern as a single entity. Different areas have different concerns. In oakland, more money should be spent on policing, whereas maybe in salt late, more money should be spent on city infrastructure. One thing should be constant though and that is human rights should be equal for all humans regardless of any condition. Finally, government should never be involved in things that it has no right interferring in. Anything not considered an externality should be avoided. Government should not legislate morality or economics. Politicians should meet once every six months at most, not given any pay and there should be very strict laws against politicians engaging in business. As mel gibson put democracy. "Should i trade 1 tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants 1 mile away?" The answer for government is to remove the ability for individuals to infringe upon other individuals liberties. This includes denying laws which infringe upon others liberties. Let's not get into an absurd originalist debate on American democracy in a thread about Chinese democracy. As you said, different areas and cultures require variations on the democratic model. Thinking that an American ultra ultra ultra libertarian model can be supplanted onto China is just... well it's a waste of thought. :| Yes, but even within china thoughts and environments are different. Collectivism on a national scale cannot survive forever. Even china knows this and thats why there are many rich businessman in china now. The seeds of individualism are being spread in china. Chinese culture is highly dependant on collectivism, however, that collectivism has been the direct cause for poverty in many parts of china. For china to really become a major economic competitor it will eventually be forced into individualism. The powers that are in china will always try to retain their power, but it won't last forever. Individualism vs collectivism is not a western thing, it is a human thing.
I agree that China will probably never revert to collectivism and become a "true" communist state again. However, that does not mean that China will eventually adopt democracy. Having economic freedom does not mean there will be political freedom for the masses.
As for me, I believe that as long as the economic growth of China can continue, the people will not push hard for democracy. A revolution probably will not occur if the people don't have something to revolt about. However, because of the pretty widespread corruption that occurs in the Communist party that happens because there is only one party with a lot of power, maybe one day the Chinese people will have something to revolt about.
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On July 15 2010 12:32 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 12:28 Roffles wrote:On July 15 2010 12:21 KwarK wrote:On July 15 2010 12:08 T.O.P. wrote:On July 15 2010 11:58 Yurebis wrote:On July 15 2010 11:53 T.O.P. wrote:
About the Video, It's amazing how much education these kids get. Seems like the one child policy helped force parents to spend all their energy on raising their only child. I feel sorry for the kids though, they have two parents watching their every step making sure that they study all the time. Did the policy give them energy? The policy made parents love their only kid even more. Because they know they will only have one kid in their life. That's why they force their kids to study, play the flute, and run for class monitor. They have high expectations of their kid and they want their kid to live a better life than they lived. As annoying as it must be to have expectations forced on you I think that overall the mass infanticide is still probably my biggest gripe with the one child policy. Definitely an issue with a one child policy. My other issue is the massive imbalance in the gender ratio. To me, it's disgusting how some people will go through sex-selection abortion just to give birth to a male instead of a female. It's a policy problem too. Sausage party = violence and instability. Another sad thing is that the government actually commissioned several studies to predict whether the population growth was sustainable or not and whether something should be preemptively down to slow it down, but Mao ignored it until the problem was unavoidable. :/
Interesting Story that somewhat relates to the one-child policy....
Once, while visiting Beijing, my mom was taking me and my sister to some new shopping mall and our taxi driver asked my mom "which one of the two kids is yours?" My mom didn't want to say that we were born in America, so she said my sister was her child and I was a cousin... 
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On July 15 2010 11:13 tryTRY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 11:09 hypercube wrote:On July 15 2010 11:07 Sadist wrote:
enlightened despot is obviously the best government
:OOOO How is it better than an enlightened president in a presidential system where he has the complete support of the legislature (and gets re-elected every time) ? even if you are the smartest person in the world and make 100% correct decisions that doesn't mean people will vote for you in america at least people vote for the candidate they "like" not for the candidate they think is the smartest, most capable, etc.
lol it's because you like the person because they align with your political ideology. If you take a subject in which very few ordinary people understanding it ends up becoming an over simplification and popularizing subject in which you either go one way or another with a person, so if something is one way you don't care for them thus you don't believe they are capable because you conflict with their understanding of the subject.
So they vote for the one they like because they do believe they are the most capable.
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On July 15 2010 11:42 Beef Noodles wrote:
Very entertaining. BUT!
I lived in China and just came back. There are many people who want democracy. There are many examples of how democracy works in China. This is clearly a government sponsored video. Of course they are going to say democracy doesn't work. No American government film is going to say communism works. Oh and by the way, this video is fake. The kids were fed lines by the filmers and many of the scenes were staged.)
(emphasis mine)
I'm surprised that nobody has responded to this quote. just goes to show that the "super genius" tl crowd is just as much of an immature bickering crowd of idiots as the little kids in the video =). thread should have stopped there.
User was banned for this post.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 15 2010 12:44 Dicember314 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2010 11:42 Beef Noodles wrote:
Very entertaining. BUT!
I lived in China and just came back. There are many people who want democracy. There are many examples of how democracy works in China. This is clearly a government sponsored video. Of course they are going to say democracy doesn't work. No American government film is going to say communism works. Oh and by the way, this video is fake. The kids were fed lines by the filmers and many of the scenes were staged.)
(emphasis mine) I'm surprised that nobody has responded to this quote. just goes to show that the "super genius" tl crowd is just as much of an immature bickering crowd of idiots as the little kids in the video =). thread should have stopped there.
I do not appreciate you imposing logic into this debate, fine sir. 
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1) I was using hyperbole, kid
2) it is not real. CLEARLY staged. Half the scenes were far too cliche. Anyone who has done a documentary can tell you half the footage was way too perfect to be real. There is a scene at the little girls dance studio with the "evil" kid's face IN THE WINDOW! Soooo fake.
Edit) this is in response to synapse
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I love this documentary thanks for showing this, the ending is almost a bit disturbing in it's own way
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Haha I loved that little chubby kid. He was a Tiny baller, but I think this video supports democracy if anything lol. Sure there was some corruption of the political process, but that happens in every system. However in the end the best man for the job won the election. Democracy triumph once again!
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edit: even if it's staged:
I expected Cheng Cheng to win before Luo Lei's monorail stunt. that and the last minute mid-automn gift or w/e right before the vote def sealed the deal for him.
I feel in a way Xiaofei had the most sincere intentions and Cheng Cheng was just trying to bully himself to the top while Luo Lei just used his parents' power (and money) to win.
I don't see left-wing politics as a bad thing (communism is definitely misunderstood especially in the US) but welp, I don't see democracy as a good thing because it makes people do whatever they can (and shouldn't) to secure votes they shouldn't have in the first place.
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Democracy is best for a country with a strong middle-class, like in most European countries. In China, I simply don't see it happening.
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EPT
