On June 14 2009 16:11 iLoveKT wrote: After shuttle's performance against flash in the OSL, I can say his PvT can beat Hwasin right now. Flash will rape hoejja which is really sad.
On June 14 2009 16:11 iLoveKT wrote: After shuttle's performance against flash in the OSL, I can say his PvT can beat Hwasin right now. Flash will rape hoejja which is really sad.
On June 14 2009 16:11 iLoveKT wrote: After shuttle's performance against flash in the OSL, I can say his PvT can beat Hwasin right now. Flash will rape hoejja which is really sad.
I am so stoked to see Shuttle kick some serious ass. I love Hwasin and all, but this kiddo really has what it takes to be a star.
EDIT: The teamkill lineups are so lame. You'd think games would be better when they don't need to hide anything from teammates while practicing and just get support instead.
On June 14 2009 17:28 Musoeun wrote: Based on my recent liquibet history, I predict HoeJJa and Hwasin will win. Which really makes no sense, but my fail liquibet > all.
Bleh, just tried opening up the Gom player. Says it can't connect to the server, and that I should check to see if I have an internet connection/not blocked by a firewall. :/
On June 14 2009 17:58 Musoeun wrote: Not up for another couple minutes, just wait.
Eh, I've always opened up the Gom player (from the blue live button on the Live page) 10-15 minutes before the scheduled starting time. And the button was ready to go Live was blue for the last 10 minutes, so I figured it would be just like the last few weeks. I've had a few problems with my internet the last few days, so I just assumed it was a problem on my end.
On June 14 2009 18:30 538 wrote: Anyone else having problems with the GOM stream? Gom player doesnt seem to be doing anything for me, all i see is the orange background:-p
On June 14 2009 18:30 538 wrote: Anyone else having problems with the GOM stream? Gom player doesnt seem to be doing anything for me, all i see is the orange background:-p
EDIT: Let me clarify: Flash attained an advantage that Hoejja negated for quite some time which was admirable and skilled. Both players played very well.
The difference between Hoejja and Jaedong is Jaedong snipes those vessels so well. If Hoejja could keep the vessel count down a bit he would have been in a much better position
Shit, that was friggin incredible play by Flash, seriously perfect game. No mistakes at all. I really liked the MnM goliath Push in the early game. Hoejja held his own better than I expected, but it was futile at the end.
On June 14 2009 18:37 samachking wrote: Shit, that was friggin incredible play by Flash, seriously perfect game. No mistakes at all. I really liked the MnM goliath Push in the early game. Hoejja held his own better than I expected, but it was futile at the end.
I agree with this. Flash's game seemed really tight, and he was able to maneuver on the map like a zerg. It's nice to see Z having to avoid flanks for a change.
Great game from Flash and both Hoejja there, I thought Hoejja might win for a second with his incredible defiler control, his plagues where everywhere. Great game from Flash, very interesting strategy as well, mech into bio lol I wonder if that will catch on.
I reinstalled Gom, and now I'm having sound, but still no picture:p I recall having the same problem last time, but someone told me something useful in a LR thread, maybe something with the video preferences?
On June 14 2009 18:55 538 wrote: I reinstalled Gom, and now I'm having sound, but still no picture:p I recall having the same problem last time, but someone told me something useful in a LR thread, maybe something with the video preferences?
Got it working, just in case anyone ever needs the same, I had to go to preferences/video/ and change the output type to "system default settings".
On June 14 2009 19:02 Piste wrote: haha lolwtf hoejja sucks so much at microing!
Wow, have you ever posted anything but useless one-liners?
And Hoejja's reaction was so bad... he should have expanded asap and just stayed defensive for a while... but the real mistake was that he didn't pull his drones earlier, and also the super late scout.
On June 14 2009 19:02 Piste wrote: haha lolwtf hoejja sucks so much at microing!
Wow, have you ever posted anything but useless one-liners?
And Hoejja's reaction was so bad... he should have expanded asap and just stayed defensive for a while... but the real mistake was that he didn't pull his drones earlier, and also the super late scout.
Well, Hoejja's attack looked bad because Flash played it perfectly, but expanding and staying defensive wouldn't have worked either. I mean, there's no way he's beating Flash in a game where Flash gets his expansion first....
On June 14 2009 19:04 samachking wrote: Thats why Flash is the best Terran to ever play the game and thats why noone argues the fact outside of TL.
Why flamebait in a LR thread pal?:-p
Flame bait? What are you talking about. SDM agrees, Ra agrees, Every single progamer interviewed agrees when asked who is the best of each race, the answer is always Flash. Its a fact. Most of his knock outs from leagues are either by S-Class or him being cheesed out. He is simply too good.
On June 14 2009 19:08 Musoeun wrote: I am apparently the only person on tl who actually still likes seeing mech TvZ...
EDIT: missed thopol's post above mine.
I like it as well, even more than bio, since for me is very interesting how zergs respond to this, is it really imba or they can learn to react smth like that:-)
On June 14 2009 19:08 Musoeun wrote: I am apparently the only person on tl who actually still likes seeing mech TvZ...
EDIT: missed thopol's post above mine.
I like it as well, even more than bio, since for me is very interesting how zergs respond to this, is it really imba or they can learn to react smth like that:-)
I LOVE when overlords die to goliaths, makes me feel... so warm deep inside
On June 14 2009 19:04 samachking wrote: Thats why Flash is the best Terran to ever play the game and thats why noone argues the fact outside of TL.
fantasy is better. love em both tho.
fantasy loses to mediocre players...
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
Whatt? In terms of raw talent Flash is definitely the better player. He's got the potential to be so much more than Fantasy or he himself has ever been.
Anyway Flash played pretty amazingly, but I thought HoeJJa played pretty well too (the first game). Very entertaining. Second game was pretty rape though obviously : )
On June 14 2009 19:10 bearbuddy wrote: To me, Flash = pure mechanics and Fantasy = pure creativity. It's kinda like seeing Boxer and Oov.
I agree
Boxer=pure mechanics. mindless micro how boring
oov=pure creativity. What a genius.
On a more serious note anyone who thinks Flash wins because of mechanics doesn't actually pay attention to his games. His defense, builds, game sense, and decisionmaking are his strengths; mechanics are probably the weakest aspect of his play.
On topic Flash's use of fast range goliaths to snipe overlords so that Hoejja couldnt clear mines was a really great idea. Hoejja definitely had to allin attack there (he could not have sat back and expanded whatsoever) and I thought Flash would have to get tanks and might have been in danger, but nope!
On June 14 2009 19:10 bearbuddy wrote: To me, Flash = pure mechanics and Fantasy = pure creativity. It's kinda like seeing Boxer and Oov.
You know the irony is, it seems that Oov is the one coming up with all the builds now.
Calling Flash pure mechanics sells him short a lot. He could use more harass in his play but he has been as responsible as anyone for defining standard Terran play over the past year. The exception, of course, is Fantasy's mech.
The upcoming MSL and OSL are really huge for Flash. He basically needs to make a really deep run in at least one, if not both leagues, and doing so will require him to redefine his play somewhat. If he manages to do that (and it's not inconceivable), he could potentially take yet another leap in skill. It's always felt like Flash hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, but if he doesn't get somewhere in this Starleague season, then maybe he really has peaked.
On June 14 2009 19:04 samachking wrote: Thats why Flash is the best Terran to ever play the game and thats why noone argues the fact outside of TL.
fantasy is better. love em both tho.
fantasy loses to mediocre players...
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
On June 14 2009 19:10 bearbuddy wrote: To me, Flash = pure mechanics and Fantasy = pure creativity. It's kinda like seeing Boxer and Oov.
I agree
Boxer=pure mechanics. mindless micro how boring
oov=pure creativity. What a genius.
On a more serious note anyone who thinks Flash wins because of mechanics doesn't actually pay attention to his games. His defense, builds, game sense, and decisionmaking are his strengths; mechanics are probably the weakest aspect of his play.
On topic Flash's use of fast range goliaths to snipe overlords so that Hoejja couldnt clear mines was a really great idea. Hoejja definitely had to allin attack there (he could not have sat back and expanded whatsoever) and I thought Flash would have to get tanks and might have been in danger, but nope!
i cringe everytime someone says flash is pure mechanics
On June 14 2009 19:10 bearbuddy wrote: To me, Flash = pure mechanics and Fantasy = pure creativity. It's kinda like seeing Boxer and Oov.
You know the irony is, it seems that Oov is the one coming up with all the builds now.
Calling Flash pure mechanics sells him short a lot. He could use more harass in his play but he has been as responsible as anyone for defining standard Terran play over the past year. The exception, of course, is Fantasy's mech.
The upcoming MSL and OSL are really huge for Flash. He basically needs to make a really deep run in at least one, if not both leagues, and doing so will require him to redefine his play somewhat. If he manages to do that (and it's not inconceivable), he could potentially take yet another leap in skill. It's always felt like Flash hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, but if he doesn't get somewhere in this Starleague season, then maybe he really has peaked.
On June 14 2009 19:04 samachking wrote: Thats why Flash is the best Terran to ever play the game and thats why noone argues the fact outside of TL.
fantasy is better. love em both tho.
fantasy loses to mediocre players...
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
does that matter at all? nope
feel free to say something thats actually relevant
On June 14 2009 19:20 Ver wrote: Flash will win at least one league so long as he avoids mass schedule overload and being eliminated in the group stages.
Know why?
Proleague ends.
That's definitely an interesting point, I hope you're right.
On June 14 2009 19:21 Artosis wrote: for everyone's information, fantasy is currently the best terran in teh world over flash.
HERE WE GO, all is clear now
eventually people will realize that someone like artosis doesnt have to come in and agree with me for me to be right because i'm always right and someone like artosis will always agree with me whether they come in and post or not
On June 14 2009 19:04 samachking wrote: Thats why Flash is the best Terran to ever play the game and thats why noone argues the fact outside of TL.
fantasy is better. love em both tho.
fantasy loses to mediocre players...
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
does that matter at all? nope
feel free to say something thats actually relevant
Flash won an individual league at the age of 15. He played Starcraft the first time at the age of 12. You were talking about raw talent...
On June 14 2009 19:10 bearbuddy wrote: To me, Flash = pure mechanics and Fantasy = pure creativity. It's kinda like seeing Boxer and Oov.
You know the irony is, it seems that Oov is the one coming up with all the builds now.
Calling Flash pure mechanics sells him short a lot. He could use more harass in his play but he has been as responsible as anyone for defining standard Terran play over the past year. The exception, of course, is Fantasy's mech.
The upcoming MSL and OSL are really huge for Flash. He basically needs to make a really deep run in at least one, if not both leagues, and doing so will require him to redefine his play somewhat. If he manages to do that (and it's not inconceivable), he could potentially take yet another leap in skill. It's always felt like Flash hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, but if he doesn't get somewhere in this Starleague season, then maybe he really has peaked.
That came out wrong on my part. I meant that (more recently) mechanics define Flash's play. In the first game, we didn't even see mutas, but he made several turrets in preparation for the mutas. Flash is known for having the best defense, and mechanics play a huge role in that.
On June 14 2009 19:10 bearbuddy wrote: To me, Flash = pure mechanics and Fantasy = pure creativity. It's kinda like seeing Boxer and Oov.
You know the irony is, it seems that Oov is the one coming up with all the builds now.
Calling Flash pure mechanics sells him short a lot. He could use more harass in his play but he has been as responsible as anyone for defining standard Terran play over the past year. The exception, of course, is Fantasy's mech.
The upcoming MSL and OSL are really huge for Flash. He basically needs to make a really deep run in at least one, if not both leagues, and doing so will require him to redefine his play somewhat. If he manages to do that (and it's not inconceivable), he could potentially take yet another leap in skill. It's always felt like Flash hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, but if he doesn't get somewhere in this Starleague season, then maybe he really has peaked.
oov is not coming up with all the builds
Okokok I apologize for not specifying EXACTLY what I meant, which is just that it's ironic that Fantasy, a player defined by his beautiful surgical builds, is now considered the apprentice of Oov as opposed to Boxer. Of course Boxer being in ACE for most of this time is a huge reason for that - it was just a semi-joke.
Instead I should have said the irony is that Oov is being CREDITED for all the builds now. I know it's Fantasy doing it - personally I've defended Fantasy's builds and called people out for saying "it's all oov" multiple times on these forums.
On June 14 2009 19:06 Piste wrote: [quote] fantasy is better. love em both tho.
fantasy loses to mediocre players...
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
does that matter at all? nope
feel free to say something thats actually relevant
Flash won an individual league at the age of 15. He played Starcraft the first time at the age of 12. You were talking about raw talent...
i'm glad you think raw talent is a measurement of how young you are when you win a starleague
please go back to watching starcraft with your infantile brain and leave the terran discussion to me!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha owned
On June 14 2009 19:10 bearbuddy wrote: To me, Flash = pure mechanics and Fantasy = pure creativity. It's kinda like seeing Boxer and Oov.
You know the irony is, it seems that Oov is the one coming up with all the builds now.
Calling Flash pure mechanics sells him short a lot. He could use more harass in his play but he has been as responsible as anyone for defining standard Terran play over the past year. The exception, of course, is Fantasy's mech.
The upcoming MSL and OSL are really huge for Flash. He basically needs to make a really deep run in at least one, if not both leagues, and doing so will require him to redefine his play somewhat. If he manages to do that (and it's not inconceivable), he could potentially take yet another leap in skill. It's always felt like Flash hasn't quite fulfilled his potential, but if he doesn't get somewhere in this Starleague season, then maybe he really has peaked.
oov is not coming up with all the builds
Okokok I apologize for not specifying EXACTLY what I meant, which is just that it's ironic that Fantasy, a player defined by his beautiful surgical builds, is now considered the apprentice of Oov as opposed to Boxer. Of course Boxer being in ACE for most of this time is a huge reason for that - it was just a semi-joke.
Instead I should have said the irony is that Oov is being CREDITED for all the builds now. I know it's Fantasy doing it - personally I've defended Fantasy's builds and called people out for saying "it's all oov" multiple times on these forums.
oh ok
yeah the whole 'fantasy sucks its just oov feeding him gosu builds' thing is about the dumbest thing i've seen on tl over the last year and it was a pretty common statement for a while
Zealots pressuring but the barracks is well placed so that the marines can hide in the gap. First zealot was taken out and the second one withdrew as a dragoon takes out the scouting SCV.
On June 14 2009 19:04 samachking wrote: Thats why Flash is the best Terran to ever play the game and thats why noone argues the fact outside of TL.
fantasy is better. love em both tho.
fantasy loses to mediocre players...
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
I remember watching by.fantasy tvp replays more than 4 years ago, he has been playing forever. As far as I know flash more or less _started playing_ 3-4 years ago (or even less). And flash already has better results, how you can call fantasy more talented than someone who has produced better results over less time and is still going strong is beyond me.
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
does that matter at all? nope
feel free to say something thats actually relevant
Flash won an individual league at the age of 15. He played Starcraft the first time at the age of 12. You were talking about raw talent...
i'm glad you think raw talent is a measurement of how young you are when you win a starleague
please go back to watching starcraft with your infantile brain and leave the terran discussion to me!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha owned
On June 14 2009 19:21 Artosis wrote: for everyone's information, fantasy is currently the best terran in teh world over flash.
HERE WE GO, all is clear now
eventually people will realize that someone like artosis doesnt have to come in and agree with me for me to be right because i'm always right and someone like artosis will always agree with me whether they come in and post or not
you are both wrong, thats why you shouldn't argue. back to stream people, someone pulled out flame bait and everyone fell for it
On June 14 2009 19:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: [quote]
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
does that matter at all? nope
feel free to say something thats actually relevant
Flash won an individual league at the age of 15. He played Starcraft the first time at the age of 12. You were talking about raw talent...
i'm glad you think raw talent is a measurement of how young you are when you win a starleague
please go back to watching starcraft with your infantile brain and leave the terran discussion to me!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha owned
-_- Ok I didnt realize you weren't serious =p
i was serious, but considering how dumb the average response to the things i say is i really dont have to justify anything
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
does that matter at all? nope
feel free to say something thats actually relevant
Flash won an individual league at the age of 15. He played Starcraft the first time at the age of 12. You were talking about raw talent...
i'm glad you think raw talent is a measurement of how young you are when you win a starleague
please go back to watching starcraft with your infantile brain and leave the terran discussion to me!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha owned
I guess that post means that you lost in that argument, since you agree with me. My point was that winning an individual league in a game that's been played for 11 years at the age of 15 after having played for 3 years is talent, more talent than using cheesy builds to win without being able to play standard and not even having a title yet although you're many years older. Not to mention completely revolutionizing TvP at the age of 15 as well... Well, if you don't understand, you don't.
Uhh, seems like Hwasin is somehow waay ahead of Shuttle. o_O
Okay, shuttle killed like 2 tanks at the cost of like 10 Dragoons, and now he's way behind in both supply and economy. Hwasin should be rolling him in a couple of minutes.
Shit, I'd be frustrated too if I played like an idiot against a senior player on my team. Wtf was with that second multi? Why didn't he go for the safe base?
On June 14 2009 19:08 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: [quote]
fantasy is still unrefined
in terms of raw talent is he superior to flash but that's an abstract concept, flash is much more consistent
fantasy is the best terran in the world but it kinda takes the ability to ignore results altogether to think that way hahah
raw talent fantasy is better? lol
Flash is 16 and is better than fantasy. Who has more raw talent?
thats a dumb way to look at it
i think the fact that you think proleague games mean anything real is pretty funny
Well, okay (maybe...), but how many titles does fantasy have?
Yeah.
thats also a dumb way to look at it. is nada the current best player on earth?
How can you say fantasy is the best terran in the world then? Do you know how all terrans play in practice? Maybe some very weak-minded player is much better than fantasy, but fails when people watch him play?
does that matter at all? nope
feel free to say something thats actually relevant
Flash won an individual league at the age of 15. He played Starcraft the first time at the age of 12. You were talking about raw talent...
i'm glad you think raw talent is a measurement of how young you are when you win a starleague
please go back to watching starcraft with your infantile brain and leave the terran discussion to me!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha owned
I guess that post means that you lost in that argument, since you agree with me. My point was that winning an individual league in a game that's been played for 11 years at the age of 15 after having played for 3 years is talent, more talent than using cheesy builds to win without being able to play standard and not even having a title yet although you're many years older. Not to mention completely revolutionizing TvP at the age of 15 as well... Well, if you don't understand, you don't.
Uhh, seems like Hwasin is somehow waay ahead of Shuttle. o_O
three years is 20% of his life. Are you saying fantasy is using cheesy builds? Using new builds is not cheesing dude -_- Fantasy is 17 and he's been in OSL finals twice. He is totally capable to win even without new builds he comes up with. He plays very strategic and therefor is damn talented and clever.
edit: and how is one year older "many years older"?
I don't get why Shuttle didn't like ever expand to his second natural behind his base... Wouldn't that have been a lot easier to defend against dropships? Haha, and Shuttle knows he sucks, so he'll proxy. ^_^
Terran expansion will go up a little bit earlier but the nat is under pressure by 3 ranged goons. Hwasin is forced to pull 2-3 SCVs to repair the bunker.
Hwasin didn't need to block the entrance with a supply and contain himself in the short term, instead he made a 2nd barracks and held off the proxy quite easily and threatened with a counter-push.
fantasy has always looked like he has more potential than flash, but he's never lived up to it, and I say that makes him actually the worse player. Apart from the last season of individual leagues, I can't think of any time or place where fantasy's actually posted better results than Flash overall despite the insanely high level of thought in his builds.
You could say he's the victim of his genius, because his builds are so timing-dependent, and if his timing gets thrown off they're very vulnerable - high risk, high reward play.
Don't get me wrong, fantasy's very good: if Flash and fantasy played a game at their best possible level, with time to prepare, I might put my money on fantasy. But if Flash and fantasy played a BoX series, I'd expect Flash to win. fantasy's creativity and timing can only carry him so far before he runs out of luck or misses a timing, and against a nearly perfect mechanical Terran like Flash (who's not dumb either), the longer the series, the more it favors Flash.
Btw, any idea how the success rate of the oov/fantasy valkonic build(s) compares with Leta/Baby's wraith play in TvZ?
On June 14 2009 19:42 Patriot.dlk wrote: i dont understand that at all. Why not block the entrance tight with supply?
well it takes time to build it and the scv building it is susceptible to attack from the zealots. even if he half builds it more zealots will come to take it down in which he will end up cancelling anyway.
Arbiter tribunal coming in for Shuttle, while Hwasin's tank count is considerable.
He attempted some vulture harassment but it was ineffective as Shuttle had walled off on the southern path, while Shuttle lost some goons and took some damage from mines placed on a ridge.
fantasy has always looked like he has more potential than flash, but he's never lived up to it, and I say that makes him actually the worse player. Apart from the last season of individual leagues, I can't think of any time or place where fantasy's actually posted better results than Flash overall despite the insanely high level of thought in his builds.
You could say he's the victim of his genius, because his builds are so timing-dependent, and if his timing gets thrown off they're very vulnerable - high risk, high reward play.
Don't get me wrong, fantasy's very good: if Flash and fantasy played a game at their best possible level, with time to prepare, I might put my money on fantasy. But if Flash and fantasy played a BoX series, I'd expect Flash to win. fantasy's creativity and timing can only carry him so far before he runs out of luck or misses a timing, and against a nearly perfect mechanical Terran like Flash (who's not dumb either), the longer the series, the more it favors Flash.
Btw, any idea how the success rate of the oov/fantasy valkonic build(s) compares with Leta/Baby's wraith play in TvZ?
flash has been roughly as good as he currently is for like two years. its a shitload better than everyone else, except now fantasy is exceeding him in both tvz and tvp
fantasy's tvz builds are far more successful than leta's wraith play, which is also fuckin' cool as hell
On June 14 2009 19:54 nothingbutzerg wrote: am i wrong or this map is carrier-favorite????
Uhm, I think that if you go carriers, you will need to go to the sidelines, because the goliaths can just fight you in the open and you don't want that.
On June 14 2009 19:54 nothingbutzerg wrote: am i wrong or this map is carrier-favorite????
Uhm, I think that if you go carriers, you will need to go to the sidelines, because the goliaths can just fight you in the open and you don't want that.
considering those recall shuttle made,maybe he should go with carriers
T.T That game made me cringe with toss imba 1a2a3a4a5a 42 zeals there at the end. But shuttle's macro is friggin insane too bad he doesnt get credit for it, he can pump more units and gates than Best PvT.
On June 14 2009 20:00 nothingbutzerg wrote: ok how on earth did that happen?????????
shuttle macroed well and had a ton of minerals saved up bc he was maxed for a while. He could instantly rebuild his army after throwing it away with bad recalls.
Shuttle just needs to play like he did against Flash in osl and he will beat Hwasin easily, playing straight up and getting stasis is the way to go here.
It's funny these games are so similar to the Flash vs Shuttle OSL games, Hwasin even copied Flash's strategy in game 1 exactly.
On June 14 2009 20:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: shuttle used to be really bad at that midgame transition
he did a great job of it in game 2
guy's getting better
Indeed, his PvT is rock solid. He impressed me in his games vs Flash and Forgg recently, played really well. His PvZ is sloppy though, and I dont watch much PvP anyways but he has a good record in that.
On June 14 2009 20:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: shuttle used to be really bad at that midgame transition
he did a great job of it in game 2
guy's getting better
Indeed, his PvT is rock solid. He impressed me in his games vs Flash and Forgg recently, played really well. His PvZ is sloppy though, and I dont watch much PvP anyways but he has a good record in that.
On June 14 2009 20:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: shuttle used to be really bad at that midgame transition
he did a great job of it in game 2
guy's getting better
He didnt really get better, he failed to grab control, he just mass expoed, and hoped Hwasin would play catchup rather then pushing Then the game was basically over since he had 5 bases and hwasin 3, taking, then losing the top left and the middle didnt really matter, he macroed well, and was maxed within a minute always after throwing away units, typical macro TvP.
Anyway, I've been seeing glimpses of great play from Shuttle for quite a while now, just not in this game 2 I LBd him for sure
On June 14 2009 20:03 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: shuttle used to be really bad at that midgame transition
he did a great job of it in game 2
guy's getting better
Indeed, his PvT is rock solid. He impressed me in his games vs Flash and Forgg recently, played really well. His PvZ is sloppy though, and I dont watch much PvP anyways but he has a good record in that.
yep, guy's making real progress
I recall the commentators being really impressed by Shuttle's play in his game against Flash, comparing it to PvT of players such as Bisu and Stork.
On June 14 2009 19:42 Patriot.dlk wrote: i dont understand that at all. Why not block the entrance tight with supply?
well it takes time to build it and the scv building it is susceptible to attack from the zealots. even if he half builds it more zealots will come to take it down in which he will end up cancelling anyway.
Am I the only person actually enjoying watching this game?
No, it wasn't perfect...
It wasn't S-Class...
But then, not every game has to be. It was an entertaining, back-and-forth game, and if their strategic and tactical play wasn't always dead on, who really cares?
YJ is reminding me of Tempest in this game, ugly macro oriented play, and cant deal with harass of any sort period. But it works. Flash vs YJ is going to be pretty good.
Edit: Haha, Shuttle is a really emotional player, crying after the game
On June 14 2009 20:36 Musoeun wrote: Am I the only person actually enjoying watching this game?
No, it wasn't perfect...
It wasn't S-Class...
But then, not every game has to be. It was an entertaining, back-and-forth game, and if their strategic and tactical play wasn't always dead on, who really cares?
I don't like watching players I like a lot playing like that. The games were exciting and good but there were many cringeworthy junctures.
i dont know what you guys are talking about.. the shuttle vs hwasin games are REALLY good.. really good back and forth..
yeah it was sloppy.. but considering what happened.. this game had like 500 things going on at once.. shuttle had to keep macroing to keep up against hwasin... he statis'd his own arb yeah.. but it was at the time where hwasin pushed right into his natural.. he had to micro his recall, defend against the push, and continue making units to fight.
I wanted to punch Shuttle in the face for not building one fucking cannon at the bottom left expansion even as it was harassed over and over again, he deserved to lose because of that. Very low level game from both players.
Wow I feel Like I could tryout for STX now...Was Shuttle paying Hwasin not to push? I don't know what some people are talking about but Flash is gonna hijack Shuttle and crash him into Hwasin's face.
meh i just knew the brackets were sucky. there wont be a Flash vs Jaedong Finals. they are on the same side of the bracket, the farthest theyll meet is only in the Semis and everybody in the right side of the bracket doesnt deserve to be in the finals.
only just now saw the games, it really seems flash cant lose to mediocre players on the other game i felt like both Hwasin & Shuttle were trying to lose, didnt like the games. + Show Spoiler +
well atleast now we know whom is better, Shuttle or Bisu
EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Tadzio/GOMS3/aiclassic3w.png)
Flash vs 
HoeJJa
Shuttle vs 
