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****NOT THE LR THREAD -- See THIS****
Winners league banner by Keit.
Two of the strongest teams clash in what is to be an epic fight.
At War With...
Writing by DoctorHelvetica, Charts and Images by Fzero
The Maps
The map order is:
Game 1: Hoejja < Andromeda > Jaedong
Game 2: < Medusa >
Game 3: < Sin Chupung-Ryeong >
Game 4: < Rush Hour 3 >
Game 5: < Colosseum II >
Game 6: < Neo Harmony >
Game 7: < Destination >
I expect Jaedong to do very well in this map pool. FlaSh or fOrGG may have a chance to snipe him on Colosseum, Destination, or Rush Hour 3. However, Jaedong is in incredible shape and he still has HiyA and Lomo to pick up the slack on Rush Hour and Destination.
KTF has some good terrans in fOrGG and FlaSh and some good zergs in HoeJJa and Luxury. Can a player like TempeSt, however, perform on Medusa against Terran? Or Destination? This game is gonna come down to the team of fOrGG/FlaSh/Luxury, while Hwaseung is going to have to rely on Jaedong/HiyA/Young. I expect KTF will take this game, even lacking a great Protoss.
The Players
KTF has key players in FlaSh, Luxury, fOrGG, HoeJJa, and TempeSt. FlaSh is in a bit of a mini-slump, but if he can perform at his top shape during this match, he will undoubtedly take down Hwaseung by himself. Only Jaedong has a chance of stopping him and assuming they fight on Rush Hour or Colosseum, Jaedong doesn't stand a chance.
fOrGG is instrumental to KTF, having much knowledge of the Hwaseung players and their playstyles. His knowledge and the mere psychological effect of sending him out gives KTF a huge and somewhat understated trump card. If fOrGG can get a 2-kill, Oz will be in a bad place psychologically.
TempeSt is the only protoss capable of winning on KTF. His placement is crucial, he must snipe a terran on Medusa or Destination. Sending him out on just any map would be a huge mistake when there are much better players like HoeJJa and Luxury to score kills for KTF.
HoeJJa and Luxury are a dynamic zerg duo, with a lot of promise. Luxury is fairly inconsistent in the Winners League, but performs pretty well in clutch situations. Even if Luxury is taken down, HoeJJa can snipe a protoss on Neo Harmony and perform pretty well in any situation he is needed.
Hwaseung Oz has key players in Jaedong, HiyA, Young, and Lomo. Jaedong and HiyA are both performing very well lately, Young and Lomo showing some promising games recently as well. However, FlaSh and Luxury are both so good against terran that Oz's T heavy lineup might not be very helpful.
Jaedong is key here, as almost no one on KTF has a chance against him besides FlaSh and Luxury. While Jaedong is a favorite against Luxury, ZvZ is a very touchy match-up and Luxury's ability in the match-up is nothing to scoff at. However, the chance of a Jaedong all-kill is not very low. If Jaedong is sniped before 2 kills, Hwaseung will lose.
HiyA is excellent against Terran and Protoss, so he will most likely be sniped after 1-kill by Luxury or HoeJJa. If by HoeJJa, then HoeJJa will probably lose the second game to Young or Lomo. If by Luxury, Luxury will probably achieve a 2-kill and then lose to Jaedong. HiyA can possibly snipe FlaSh with a creative build, or snipe TempeSt if he is out for some reason.
Young and Lomo have the potential to be map snipers, but Lomo might take a very insignificant position as the "other terran", while Young might have to snipe fOrGG or FlaSh on Medusa. The potential for both these players is important and I hope for a good game from Lomo (I'm a Lomo fanboy :3). Bubblegum Terran Fighting!.
Based on maps and players, I predict KTF will win this match. Jaedong can be too easily sniped on Colosseum, Destination, and Rush Hour 3. HiyA and Young just can't carry KTF while Luxury and fOrGG are very capable of doing so. This map will prove to be an exciting one now that fOrGG is on the team and creating some drama around the match.
Let's hope for a good game! KTF/Hwaseung Fighting!
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forgot to mention that Hoejja vsJeadong first game O-o
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Awesome OP.
BTW ForGG is in both team pictures 
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Epic op lots of great information
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
i dont get the arrows but friggin awwesomeeeee op ! :D:D:D:DD
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So the arrows take the average of the three percentages and they mark how much higher/lower each statistic is from the average.
So for example:
Colosseum 2:
avg - 54.23
TvZ is much higher than that (up arrow) while PvT is only slightly above (diagonal up arrow) and ZvP is far below (down arrow).
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thanks for the great OP
this will be exciting...
especially if KTF sends fOrGG out against Hwaseung
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Awesome op, thanks for the effort =)
edit: you should for fun put some image over forgg's head in the oz picture or just a big red cross =P
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Oh, and just for fun.. I predict:
HoeJJa v Jaedong
fOrGG v Jaedong
Flash v Jaedong
Flash v HiyA
Flash v Young
Luxury v Young
Luxury v Lomo
But in all seriousness, if KTF can beat Jaedong with anyone but Flash they will win. It's too risky to send Flash in the second set and the third set is also very risky since Flash struggles on Chupung. I'm thinking they may send Lux in the second set to try to get rid of Jaedong quickly and Lux will lose to Hiya on Chupung then Flash will finish Oz after he beats Hiya on RH3.
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Nice op.
I'm hoping for flash to all-kill OZ.
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This is probably only the most thoroughly done set of predictions ever done at TL. Great job you two!
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why do you keep saying JD on colosseum could be sniped, or whatever. He wont get to play on colosseum no matter what, as OP you shuld have noticed that
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United States13896 Posts
I'm confused, is this the most articulated live report OP ever made, or is it supposed to be an article and not a LR thread? Either way, this is great stuff guys - thanks.
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Jaedong All Kill incoming.
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Damn, I hate JaeDong and Flash so much  Hope they both don't win any games so the match will be more interesting.
Edit: Oh, I forgot that I don't hate JD but Effort...
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On March 20 2009 01:01 p4NDemik wrote:
I'm confused, is this the most articulated live report OP ever made, or is it supposed to be an article and not a LR thread? Either way, this is great stuff guys - thanks.
yeah it's an article. fzero already pm'd me asking me if I wanted to use some of the images for the actual LR thread
Edit: I predict a Jaedong 3 kill into fOrGG snipe and reverse sweep!
Ok tbh I only looked at the charts, which are very good. Dr. H you need to fix your write up!
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ROFL. How can Tempest snipe a Terran on Medusa when the second set on Medusa would be vs Jaedong? And if he sniped a Terran on Destination, then he would be KTF's last hope And you can't snipe Jaedong on Colosseum II or Destination? He can't possibly play those maps if he is starting. And how can Hoejja snipe a Toss on Neo Harmony if he is starting? You need to get your stories straight based off the map pool rofl.
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lol forGG is in both photos.
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Jaedong can't be sniped on Medusa, and Young/Backho can't snipe a terran on Medusa. It's not possible given the map pool. Wait, nvm, someone already said it.
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sigh why did they send jd first now an epic ace match against luxury will be unlikely
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Never mind, edited, just saw Fzero's post
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i just hope jd kills 2-3 at least lol
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If KTF can dispose of JD and HiyA with three kills total or less, they win. OZ's backups are scrubs with the exception of BackHo who is probably out of shape. Non?
On the other hand, JD is likely to two-kill before Flash comes out and rides map imba and the Flash imba to victory. HiyA snipes Flash in a TvT on RH3, but loses to Lux who then has to win another two games.
Oh, AFTER an MSL finals. Yeah, I see KTF going down here.
Unless they actually knock JD out in game one or two. But HiyA's still an all-kill machine.
I'm not even going to try to predict this one, I can argue myself in circles even without outside help.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
On March 19 2009 22:48 Fzero wrote:The Players
Hiya 10-1 WL TvP is crazy. Too bad it's no use against KTF.
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I don't mind a result when jd kills 3 and reverse kill happens as long as its luxury and not flash
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On March 20 2009 01:38 RainmanMP wrote:
ROFL. How can Tempest snipe a Terran on Medusa when the second set on Medusa would be vs Jaedong? And if he sniped a Terran on Destination, then he would be KTF's last hope And you can't snipe Jaedong on Colosseum II or Destination? He can't possibly play those maps if he is starting. And how can Hoejja snipe a Toss on Neo Harmony if he is starting? You need to get your stories straight based off the map pool rofl.
Relax, they probably just wrote the article before the map pool came out.
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On March 20 2009 03:33 ichimarugin680 wrote:I don't mind a result when jd kills 3 and reverse  Kill happens as long as its luxury and not flash
Haha me too! Zerg pride!
Although I prefer  Jaedong all Kill.
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Yeah, I did not have time to write so I asked for some help and Dr H was kind enough to offer.
Plexa is a bit busy around here right now and we have a queue for articles on the front page, I figured I'd just post this to help with the hype.
The final thread about CJ v R2 Winner will be on the front page and written by me with similar graphic structure.
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I think the coach did the right move calling JD up first. He can only be "sniped" on colleseum II and perhaps destination but his stats on those two maps are fairly impressive. Same with the first 4 maps. The last 3 is favoured for Flas but the first 4 is in favour for JD. I think that the coach thinks that this is the best chance to win by giving JD an advantage if he has to face Flash. This puts pressure on JD because he has to commit an All Kill otherwise his team is in a troublesome position. I also think that Forgg presence on the KTF team is overstated since he is plainly in terrible shape right now and i would consider him a non factor in this match up and chances are if he was put up to play, I think the Oz coach knows what to expect from ForGG and chances are he has a strategy set up up ForGG and make him an easy win for Oz.
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If you look at the map %s vt its very clear why JD is up first, only position where he has a good chance at 2 kills.
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I want OZ to win but then I don't know if I could bear watching OZ vs CJ in the finals, I'd be too torn.
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I have to say, KTF team photos always look pretty awful. Get the Oz photographer to photograph KTF.
I don't care if JD has 80% ZvZ and Hoejja has looked pathetic in the few ZvZs he's played. It will be a Hoejja all-kill!
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Backho will rape everyone who dares to snipe Jaedong -_-
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Benedict Arnold Terran and Child Labor Terran gogogo!!!!
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OZ is in for a tough match. If JD doesn't pull some magic, they'll lose for sure. Flash, Luxury and Forgg make a sick lineup to beat..
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Such a poor decision sending your ace out first. But I think there really was no better choice. Regardless when Oz sends JD, he will be playing on RH3 and potentially 1 or more anti-ZvT maps. Say Oz saved him until:
Set2: JD plays on SCPR, RH3
Set3: JD plays on SCPR, RH3
Set4: JD plays on RH3, Desti
Set5: JD plays on Desti. I assume from this point on, Hiya squeaks in a win but, I don't see any other player able to get 2 kills on KTF. This throws Set6/7 out of the equation because Oz will have lost by then.
KTF will for sure have at least 1 sniper for JD in case Hoejja loses. Also, SCPR, RH3, Desti are horrid maps for zerg against KTF's two terrans, Flash/ForGG. Then again, if there is anyone who can overcome map imbalances, its JD/Flash/Bisu/etc.
I don't factor any other Oz players because I don't have any confidence in the rest of their team. I personally dislike Hiya, despite his performance. I just feel on "godlike days" Lux, ForGG, Flash, JD are the only players playing this match who are capable of AK-ing the opposing team. After JD, Oz doesn't have anyone capable of AK-ing KTF's team.
This is how Oz wins:
1) JD AK
2) JD 3-kill, and pray Hiya can take a game off Flash / Lux, who has potential to play lights-out any given day
KTF wins:
1) JD 2-kill
2) Flash Reverse AK
3) Lux Reverse AK
I personally liquibetted KTF. Flash comes out early and destroys everything, reserving Lux for Ace match if it gets that far. But I would not be surprised at all if JD wins this by himself for Oz. Key player is Jaedong. 3 Kills+ or go home.
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yep, i have to agree totally with JL13.. pretty good analysis
definitely the key player is jaedong. Although if its him vs flash, I would bank on flash.. his TvZ lately has looked as good as ever. maybe Flash 60% > JD 40%
If Flash wins, i think he'll go on to get an all-kill..
I also think that lomo or hiya's TVT isln't good enough to take flash down.
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OZ wants an all kill thats why they put Jaedong upfront
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jaedong allkill.
oz autovote
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On March 19 2009 22:58 ssystem wrote:Awesome OP. BTW ForGG is in both team pictures
he has the same "backstabber" expression too LOL
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funny to see never_v_ in both teams...
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If Jaedong kills at least 3, I predict a win from Oz. Hiya should be able to clean up the rest
Here's to praying for JD all kill!!
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On March 20 2009 09:54 Nylan wrote:
Benedict Arnold Terran and Child Labor Terran gogogo!!!!
Best nickname ever.
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i think oz is screwed, but i guess anything can happen in the playoffs
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On March 20 2009 13:45 AzureEye wrote:
If Jaedong kills at least 3, I predict a win from Oz. Hiya should be able to clean up the rest
Here's to praying for JD all kill!!
the rest being 1 player left? great prediction mate.
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hahaha...if u look closer at the 2 pics , KTF and OZ have the same player, namely NEVER GG(forgg) | )
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On March 20 2009 15:28 ShoGunBo wrote:hahaha...if u look closer at the 2 pics , KTF and OZ have the same player, namely NEVER GG(forgg) | )
fOrGG vs fOrGG
Mind game at it's best.
I wonder who will prevail?
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lol, what if oz pulled a switcheroo and traded some forgg lookalike to ktf.
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Hmmm... it could definitely work... Those asians all look the same sometimes man...
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What are you talking about that FlaSh or fOrGG might snipe JD on Colosseum or Destination it is not possible :/ Also Tempest fighting a T on Medusa? Also impossible...
I think if JD is gets to 3-0 OZ have a very strong chance of taking it, but if he is sniped before then KTF will have it in the bag.
On March 20 2009 15:41 Grobyc wrote:fOrGG vs fOrGGI wonder who will prevail?
Why, fOrGG of course n_n
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On March 20 2009 09:21 Alsar wrote:I want OZ to win but then I don't know if I could bear watching OZ vs CJ in the finals, I'd be too torn.
HAHAHA nice
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BTW, I wrote this before the HoeJJa <> Jaedong starter was announced. So that's why I said things like TempeSt has a chance to snipe a T on Medusa, etc.
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I think everyone is forgetting how terrible fOrGG has been playing lately, with significant preparation I might add (he didn't play any proleague leading up to his series with Stork). Right now, I don't think he's capable of beating anyone Hwaseung might send out, with the exception of Lomo. Plus, KTF might not even use him, since he is so new to the team.
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On March 20 2009 23:25 sHade]DaLToN wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting how terrible fOrGG has been playing lately, with significant preparation I might add (he didn't play any proleague leading up to his series with Stork). Right now, I don't think he's capable of beating anyone Hwaseung might send out, with the exception of Lomo. Plus, KTF might not even use him, since he is so new to the team.
Go look at the Interview with the KTF coach. He says that when ForGG arrived in the KTF house, he performed surprisingly well, and that the coach will definitely play him against OZ.
ForGG has a serious mental problem with Stork, I think that is why he wasn't able to show his best in that series.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
lol ForGG in both pictures
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On March 20 2009 23:55 Calyx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2009 23:25 sHade]DaLToN wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting how terrible fOrGG has been playing lately, with significant preparation I might add (he didn't play any proleague leading up to his series with Stork). Right now, I don't think he's capable of beating anyone Hwaseung might send out, with the exception of Lomo. Plus, KTF might not even use him, since he is so new to the team. Go look at the Interview with the KTF coach. He says that when ForGG arrived in the KTF house, he performed surprisingly well, and that the coach will definitely play him against OZ. ForGG has a serious mental problem with Stork, I think that is why he wasn't able to show his best in that series.
He's 4-10 since he started sucking, and only 4 of those losses have been against Stork.
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On March 21 2009 02:51 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2009 23:55 Calyx wrote:On March 20 2009 23:25 sHade]DaLToN wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting how terrible fOrGG has been playing lately, with significant preparation I might add (he didn't play any proleague leading up to his series with Stork). Right now, I don't think he's capable of beating anyone Hwaseung might send out, with the exception of Lomo. Plus, KTF might not even use him, since he is so new to the team. Go look at the Interview with the KTF coach. He says that when ForGG arrived in the KTF house, he performed surprisingly well, and that the coach will definitely play him against OZ. ForGG has a serious mental problem with Stork, I think that is why he wasn't able to show his best in that series. He's 4-10 since he started sucking, and only 4 of those losses have been against Stork.
And in that period:
TvP: 2-8
TvT: 2-2
TvZ: 0-0
I wouldn't count him as a non-factor in this series based on a bunch of TvP losses.
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On March 20 2009 11:51 boxxyownz wrote:
jaedong allkill.
oz autovote
Idem
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This is a really good op even though it sorta distorts forum layout. Good job
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+ Show Spoiler +well luxury won the MSL so
Huh, this is 4 am , i guess this ll be another sleepless night :<
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On March 21 2009 02:51 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2009 23:55 Calyx wrote:On March 20 2009 23:25 sHade]DaLToN wrote:
I think everyone is forgetting how terrible fOrGG has been playing lately, with significant preparation I might add (he didn't play any proleague leading up to his series with Stork). Right now, I don't think he's capable of beating anyone Hwaseung might send out, with the exception of Lomo. Plus, KTF might not even use him, since he is so new to the team. Go look at the Interview with the KTF coach. He says that when ForGG arrived in the KTF house, he performed surprisingly well, and that the coach will definitely play him against OZ. ForGG has a serious mental problem with Stork, I think that is why he wasn't able to show his best in that series. He's 4-10 since he started sucking, and only 4 of those losses have been against Stork.
Yeah but his mental problem with stork pretty much has ruined his once stellar TvP
And, wouldn't you know it, Lecaf doesn't really have any protoss players that pose a serious threat.
You have to go back to November 15th 2008 to find the last time he lost to a zerg player. And the only terrans he has lost to recently are UpMagic and Flash - not exactly chumps at TvT.
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i think Oz should be able to win this.
But Flash and Luxury(who just won the MSL) are going to give JD some trouble...
Lomo all kill
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He's been getting owned by all sorts of protosses. Both Reach and Soo beat him, and Soo did it twice. Who is Soo? His TvP is dismal and any semi competent toss could win against him.
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He's just having a mental block. You gotta remember that his TvP used to be extremely good. It just might be that leaving Hwaseung might have brought his TvP gamesense back. And Lecaf would commit suicide by putting out someone like Young, since he'd just get sniped the next game even if he managed to win.
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Young <> fOrGG is a pretty good trade. We can't say how his trade will impact him, it might as easily make all his MUs suck. But we know for sure that his TvP was utter crap before the trade so it's more likely he still sucks at it. Even if it is a mental block, he is still bad at it. It still counts, we're not talking about potential, but performance.
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Wow, epic OP. Very, very nice. I'm hoping for some awesome games tonight!
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Will we be able to watch this live? Is it gonna be broadcasted on MBC or OGN?
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On March 22 2009 00:56 Mykill wrote:i think Oz should be able to win this. + Show Spoiler +But Flash and Luxury(who just won the MSL) are going to give JD some trouble... Lomo all kill
Yeah, next time use spoiler tags instead of unnecessarily putting things in brackets
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Russian Federation4333 Posts
A lot of people are talking about ForGG making an appearance. Afaik ForGG will not be playing in these playoffs. The newes post about his transfer said that he will start after the playoffs on the 15'th (I'm assuming april 15'th)
On March 20 2009 23:55 Calyx wrote:
Go look at the Interview with the KTF coach. He says that when ForGG arrived in the KTF house, he performed surprisingly well, and that the coach will definitely play him against OZ.
If you are talking about the KTF-OZ pre match interview, the only recent interview with the KTF coach, then that statement is false. He did not say he will be playing ForGG.
In answer to the large interest of fOrGG’s move to KTF, “I can’t respond definitively yet, but it is true that fOrGG is the terran that knows most about Jaedong” he replied.
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Oz has developed to a two men team with Hiya and Jaedong being the only source of real danger. KTF on the other hand can show off some nice depth with Flash, Luxury, ForGG and HoeJJa. Tempest also is a half-decent player I guess. And if Lucifer can get his act together again like one or two seasons ago they'll have another threatening protoss. They also have the perfect Jaedong sniper in ForGG.
I think KTF will take this. With a little bit of luck, it might not even be a close win.
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United States11390 Posts
On March 22 2009 06:40 Mooncat wrote:
Oz has developed to a two men team with Hiya and Jaedong being the only source of real danger. KTF on the other hand can show off some nice depth with Flash, Luxury, ForGG and HoeJJa. Tempest also is a half-decent player I guess. And if Lucifer can get his act together again like one or two seasons ago they'll have another threatening protoss. They also have the perfect Jaedong sniper in ForGG.
I think KTF will take this. With a little bit of luck, it might not even be a close win.
KTF Protoss have done lol nothing in WL.
Young and Lomo actually know what winning feels like. 
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On March 22 2009 06:28 TheTyranid wrote:A lot of people are talking about ForGG making an appearance. Afaik ForGG will not be playing in these playoffs. The newes post about his transfer said that he will start after the playoffs on the 15'th (I'm assuming april 15'th) Show nested quote +On March 20 2009 23:55 Calyx wrote:
Go look at the Interview with the KTF coach. He says that when ForGG arrived in the KTF house, he performed surprisingly well, and that the coach will definitely play him against OZ.
If you are talking about the KTF-OZ pre match interview, the only recent interview with the KTF coach, then that statement is false. He did not say he will be playing ForGG. Show nested quote +
In answer to the large interest of fOrGG’s move to KTF, “I can’t respond definitively yet, but it is true that fOrGG is the terran that knows most about Jaedong” he replied.
There was a less recent interview with the KTF coach, concerning fOrGG's trade and he said that he will play him. Also, he can play after March 15th, not April.
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Sorry, I didn't move this thread to Tourneys. I added a little reminder at the top of this thread.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/proleaguefinal.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/photo/1237104847_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/photo/1234420050_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Fzero/PL/MapPrev1.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Fzero/PL/MapPrev2.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Fzero/PL/KtfvOzStat.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.fomos.kr/board/photo/1234419812_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Fzero/PL/KTFvOzAces.png)
![[image loading]](http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/5597/hoz.jpg)
