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On October 24 2008 14:05 OneOther wrote:
Are you serious? Stork is one of the most versatile players in the game. His ability to adapt and adjust is what makes him a superb player. Given Stork and Best, Stork has the advantage in terms of strategic flexibility - he has shown a much broader range of play styles than Best. I can't believe you actually just said Stork is less creative than Best. Do you even watch StarCraft? I don't mean to offend you in any way, but that's just an outlandish claim. Best has been, and still is solely known for his macro game. Without a doubt, he has the flattest style out the top Protoss players you mentioned. Best sets himself up in a comfortable economical position, then just wins by outmacroing his opponent. You admit Stork does cool strategies, but you are unwilling to call him a creative player because he is not a "balls out" type of player. Of course Stork is not creative compared to the standards of Nal_ra or Boxer. That's a ridiculous comparison.
Essentially your argument is that Stork's not a creative player because he isn't versatile and doesn't measure up to nal_ra or boxer. I think most of people can agree that Stork has amazing, instinctual adaptability. And that although his creativity and strategic spectrum do not compare to those of nal_ra or boxer, he displays the most variety in his games than any Protoss player out there these days. Certainly more than Best.
I agree totally..I really view this series as the ultimate test between superior strategy and superior mechanics. If anyone thinks that best has more strategic variety in his game than Stork, then they do not watch StarCraft period.
I can't really make a prediction as to who is gonna win, I think PvP is too unpredictable. We had Backho 2-0ing Stork in Gom, Backho 2-1ing Jangbi in Ever OSL, Bisu beating Much 2-0 in bacchus OSL when Much was a pretty big favourite, and let's not forget Bisu 3-0ing Nal_rA back when rA had like a ridiculous 80% pvp winrate in the GOMTV MSL S1 semifinals.
I wouldn't be surprised if either player won 3-0 tbh.. I guess if forced to make a prediction, I'd say BeSt is gonna win.. but I really have no idea. Gonna be epic forsure =D
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Who is talking about jaedong in this thread?
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United States10774 Posts
On October 24 2008 15:03 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 14:49 thunk wrote:Spiral's comment on page 3 should be reiterated. BeSt is going to be one of the more exciting players to watch should he continue to dominate. Spiral put him in both categories of protoss - Dreamer toss and Machine toss. Why? Because he has both. One of his greatest strengths thus far is that he hasn't conformed to one style or the other and seems to be able to switch to the one that will win him games, hence why he has been called absorber Protoss. Literally over the last 6 months BeSt has played with Bisu mulititask, Stork macro, Kingdom balls, you name it. BeSt is probably Protoss player's best chance at seeing Dreamer toss coming back. Second best? + Show Spoiler +Tempest, but he has yet to show the dominance that BeSt has. I can't think of any of other player that has played with similar innovation. Okay, so he cheese against Bisu and he's flexible and doesn't conform to style? No, Best is not known for his micro for flexibility or Dreamer toss-ness but his macro, and where did you get the nickname absorber toss from? Don't make up stuff. I don't support either side but people overromanticize Best's play to ridiculous proportions. That's not saying he's not awesome, but still.
Exactly my thoughts. Best has always been the macro Protoss, but then his fanboys start giving him new nicknames and playstyles that don't fit him at all.
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This series should've been left for OSL Finals.
That would be epic.
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Now while Best's crazy pvP is O.O, there are two exhibits that show a possibility of success for Stork.
Exhibit A: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/326_YellOw
Note the 6 silvers
Exhibit B: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/players/59_Stork
Note the 5 silvers
Clearly Stork is planning on hitting 6 silvers before 2009, and then in 2009, pull a mini Savior, and destroy Yellow's silvers count, holding the record for most silvers to himself!
Nothing can keep him from this goal!
Oh, and clearly Stork wants to pass Nada in silvers before the new year as well :-)
+ Show Spoiler +But really, just like when I predicted Stork 3-0 Bisu last time in OP and everyone was like "WTF FUCK", this time I expect... + Show Spoiler +
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On October 24 2008 15:26 mog87 wrote:
Who is talking about jaedong in this thread?
You said Best has an advantage because he has better practiced partners but practice partners with a better MU does not always indicate better performance. I gave an example of such.
On a side note, they should prepare for the other's style, and need to have practice partners who can mimick that.
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On October 24 2008 15:30 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 15:26 mog87 wrote:
Who is talking about jaedong in this thread? You said Best has an advantage because he has better practiced partners but practice partners with a better MU does not always indicate better performance. I gave an example of such. On a side note, they should prepare for the other's style, and need to have practice partners who can mimick that.
even so i'd argue jangbi to be at least on par with bisu in pvp
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Their recent performance doesn't reflect that. Bisu's been pulling out great PvP lately due to the amount he's had to play. I think 6-8 games PvP in a month?
I can't wait to check the results in the morning. I hope the awesomeness of the games ease the pain of + Show Spoiler +Jaedong getting kicked out of the MSL
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On October 24 2008 15:30 EtherealDeath wrote:+ Show Spoiler +But really, just like when I predicted Stork 3-0 Bisu last time in OP and everyone was like "WTF FUCK", this time I expect... + Show Spoiler +
i would say 3:1 for stork too. but with that kind of gosu players, you never know...
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On October 24 2008 14:05 OneOther wrote:
Are you serious? Stork is one of the most versatile players in the game. His ability to adapt and adjust is what makes him a superb player. Given Stork and Best, Stork has the advantage in terms of strategic flexibility - he has shown a much broader range of play styles than Best. I can't believe you actually just said Stork is less creative than Best. Do you even watch StarCraft? I don't mean to offend you in any way, but that's just an outlandish claim. Best has been, and still is solely known for his macro game. Without a doubt, he has the flattest style out the top Protoss players you mentioned. Best sets himself up in a comfortable economical position, then just wins by outmacroing his opponent. You admit Stork does cool strategies, but you are unwilling to call him a creative player because he is not a "balls out" type of player. Of course Stork is not creative compared to the standards of Nal_ra or Boxer. That's a ridiculous comparison.
Essentially your argument is that Stork's not a creative player because he isn't versatile and doesn't measure up to nal_ra or boxer. I think most of people can agree that Stork has amazing, instinctual adaptability. And that although his creativity and strategic spectrum do not compare to those of nal_ra or boxer, he displays the most variety in his games than any Protoss player out there these days. Certainly more than Best.
I honestly don't even know why you are comparing Stork and Nal_ra at all. Nobody is as creative as ra is, but that doesn't justify Stork being uncreative. Every Protoss is a mechanical player these days. Stork crosses the borderline more frequently than anyone else, though.
Look my argument isnt that Stork isnt creative because he isnt as good as Nal_Ra, I was comparing the two in good light as the top of the creative and mechanical side of Protoss. Which I think is a very good comparison, thought I may have worded it in a bad way so sorry if you misunderstood. What I am saying here is that Best is a more creative player in this matchup than Stork which is what my posts have advocated since the start. He obtained the amazing streak he has in this matchup by being creative and adaptive to his opponents style. Stork however has stuck to his strategies when confronted with a situation he was unsure of, his GSI PvT consisted of Carriers on Katrina which failed against Flash but he stuck to his guns anyway.
Stork is still a better Protoss all around but what I was saying before you singled out that one part of my post was that he is inferior to Best because he is not sure of how to beat him. Stork will most likely stick to a heavy macro game because it is safe in PvP to have a consistent build with good timing, and against Best he has to do that well. But Best is on top of his game right now and is going to feel this game and this scenario better than Stork will, I think that is where he is going to shine. I am not trying to trash Stork or say that he sucks because he isnt Nal_Ra, in fact Stork is easily one of the best Protoss right now and has been for a while now. His mechanics are second to none in my opinion and he if he didnt have such terrible finals experiences he would be considered one of the best ever. I guess my post may have been worded bad, but I feel as if you took that one aspect of it a bit too hard. I was merely trying to give a good example of a creative toss to compare to Storks even macro style, not attempting to put the two in the same schools of Protoss which I wrote about in an earlier post.
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United States12607 Posts
To everyone who thinks that it's unreasonable to go on about BeSt's PvP:
BeSt's 27-5 career record in PvP is by far the best 32-game PvP stretch in the history of professional SC. A more dominant reign than any of the "Kings of PvP" Stork, Reach, Pusan, and Anytime. What's really remarkable, though, is that these 32 games are the first 32 games of BeSt's career, which began when he was an amateur player at WCG Korea 2006.
This kid just has unprecedented natural ability in this matchup.
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On October 24 2008 15:40 jwd241224 wrote:
To everyone who thinks that it's unreasonable to go on about BeSt's PvP:
BeSt's 27-5 career record in PvP is by far the best 32-game PvP stretch in the history of professional SC. A more dominant reign than any of the "Kings of PvP" Stork, Reach, Pusan, and Anytime. What's really remarkable, though, is that these 32 games are the first 32 games of BeSt's career, which began when he was an amateur player at WCG Korea 2006.
This kid just has unprecedented natural ability in this matchup.
oov 29-3 TvZ first 32 games :-P (don't forget the initial 27 game winning streak!)
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On October 24 2008 15:46 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 15:40 jwd241224 wrote:
To everyone who thinks that it's unreasonable to go on about BeSt's PvP:
BeSt's 27-5 career record in PvP is by far the best 32-game PvP stretch in the history of professional SC. A more dominant reign than any of the "Kings of PvP" Stork, Reach, Pusan, and Anytime. What's really remarkable, though, is that these 32 games are the first 32 games of BeSt's career, which began when he was an amateur player at WCG Korea 2006.
This kid just has unprecedented natural ability in this matchup. oov 29-3 TvZ first 32 games :-P (don't forget the initial 27 game winning streak!)
He said the best 32-game PvP stretch, not of all-time.
Noob.
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United States10774 Posts
On October 24 2008 15:39 Sp1ralArch1tect wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 14:05 OneOther wrote:
Are you serious? Stork is one of the most versatile players in the game. His ability to adapt and adjust is what makes him a superb player. Given Stork and Best, Stork has the advantage in terms of strategic flexibility - he has shown a much broader range of play styles than Best. I can't believe you actually just said Stork is less creative than Best. Do you even watch StarCraft? I don't mean to offend you in any way, but that's just an outlandish claim. Best has been, and still is solely known for his macro game. Without a doubt, he has the flattest style out the top Protoss players you mentioned. Best sets himself up in a comfortable economical position, then just wins by outmacroing his opponent. You admit Stork does cool strategies, but you are unwilling to call him a creative player because he is not a "balls out" type of player. Of course Stork is not creative compared to the standards of Nal_ra or Boxer. That's a ridiculous comparison.
Essentially your argument is that Stork's not a creative player because he isn't versatile and doesn't measure up to nal_ra or boxer. I think most of people can agree that Stork has amazing, instinctual adaptability. And that although his creativity and strategic spectrum do not compare to those of nal_ra or boxer, he displays the most variety in his games than any Protoss player out there these days. Certainly more than Best.
I honestly don't even know why you are comparing Stork and Nal_ra at all. Nobody is as creative as ra is, but that doesn't justify Stork being uncreative. Every Protoss is a mechanical player these days. Stork crosses the borderline more frequently than anyone else, though. Look my argument isnt that Stork isnt creative because he isnt as good as Nal_Ra, I was comparing the two in good light as the top of the creative and mechanical side of Protoss. Which I think is a very good comparison, thought I may have worded it in a bad way so sorry if you misunderstood. What I am saying here is that Best is a more creative player in this matchup than Stork which is what my posts have advocated since the start. He obtained the amazing streak he has in this matchup by being creative and adaptive to his opponents style. Stork however has stuck to his strategies when confronted with a situation he was unsure of, his GSI PvT consisted of Carriers on Katrina which failed against Flash but he stuck to his guns anyway. Stork is still a better Protoss all around but what I was saying before you singled out that one part of my post was that he is inferior to Best because he is not sure of how to beat him. Stork will most likely stick to a heavy macro game because it is safe in PvP to have a consistent build with good timing, and against Best he has to do that well. But Best is on top of his game right now and is going to feel this game and this scenario better than Stork will, I think that is where he is going to shine. I am not trying to trash Stork or say that he sucks because he isnt Nal_Ra, in fact Stork is easily one of the best Protoss right now and has been for a while now. His mechanics are second to none in my opinion and he if he didnt have such terrible finals experiences he would be considered one of the best ever. I guess my post may have been worded bad, but I feel as if you took that one aspect of it a bit too hard. I was merely trying to give a good example of a creative toss to compare to Storks even macro style, not attempting to put the two in the same schools of Protoss which I wrote about in an earlier post.
Yes, exacty - that's where our difference lies. I don't agree with you that Best is a more creative player in PvP than Stork is. See, those two are both so incredibly solid in this matchup that it becomes difficult to analyze which player is better at what aspect. I do believe, however, that Stork is more on the finesse/strategic ground and Best is closer to all out macro mode. I think it's safe to say that most people will agree with that categorization.
Your evidence regarding Best's creativity is highly flawed. How can you say that he is more creative than Stork just based on a winning streak? He is winning a lot of games because he's a great player, especially in the macro department. That does not prove that his ability to adapt is better than Stork's. Also, I don't understand why you bring in Stork's games vs Flash. I thought we were talking about flexibility and creativity in PvP? It's unfair use that against Stork. Flash was unstoppable at the time, and losing to him didn't mean much. Protoss didn't know what to do. Arbiters, Carriers, or whatever Protoss could come up with could not slow down Flash...
It's debatable who will be able to "feel the scenario" better. They are unbelievable at this matchup, they are both at the top of their game. You don't really back up your statement with anything besides your personal opinion. Like I said earlier, I think there is a general consensus that Best is more macro-oriented, whereas Stork is about the adaptability and versatility. This is not to say that either one is weak in any area.
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I've always thought that Stork's big thing is his game preparation. His game-to-game adjustment looks pretty awful to me, in that he sticks with the same style.. But give him time to prepare, and Stork will pull out stuff that you didn't was possible.
Overall, I think Stork is the better player, in that if he and Best were put in a group with 20 other top players in a round-robin tournament, I'd expect Stork to win more. But I think the MU is much more favorable for Best.
Either way, REALLY looking forward to it. Go Stork!
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I like both players.. I really don't mind who wins, but I'm pretty sure we will determine the OSL champion here. (No offence to FantaSy though, he's good and not to underestimate)
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Hungary11284 Posts
This is a really inspiring OP and it even sparked a more or less in-depth discussion. (Sp1ral vs. OneOther). Wish I could watch!
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Best!!! 
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I will watch this series - sacrifice, sleep and comfort.
GOnna study for hour an a half for now.
This is gonna be epic.
Even if games will be boring - which i highly doubt - it is still going to be epic.
I want Stork to win, but i am okay with Best winning too.'
I think no one should overlook fantasy.
If Stork wins -- i think Fantasy is going to make him cry again - probably cheese him life flash unexpectedly.
Stork is my favorite protoss player
Savior is my fave zerg player.
and I have not fave terran players...maybe Boxer -- but that's a gimme 
Go stork, You have the skils and brainpower.
The questions is -- do you have balls? do you believe in yourself? can you focus on what is in front of you without looking ahead too much?
We will see our answer today.
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GOGO Stork !! I wanna see him have a shot at Gold again and see whether he can do it again this time  
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EPT
