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ohhsuup, why do you keep posting nonsense with profanity? Fanboy much?
Flash lost. Flash cheated you out of a Flash Jaedong final cus he lost and didn't win. Flash dropped 3 games in a BO5, which is above the cutoff for the most you can lose and not be eliminated.
It's Flash's fault for losing in a game that you can play one of several dozen ways. He picked his cards and lost the hand 3 times to 1.
I'd love for him to play better and pass on, but it's not about me. It's "whoever wins" advances. Before today people crossed off ForGG for dead, so why are people doing the "stupid" again for the final?
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this will be just like the osl, forgg does the impossible by beating flash as best came from a 2-0 defecit, then forgg will get raped by jaedong so hard that the only entertainment value we get from this game is from its hilarity
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United States10774 Posts
well whatever, forgg is a fag
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Dude, chill.
Flash cheesed Bisu, and if you want me to take your speech mannerism, "robbed" Bisu of a historic opportunity of winning both the OSL and the MSL at the same time. This was during his prime, when he was considered the next bonjwa by even most TLers, and there was a legitimately anticipated Savior vs Bisu rematch, if I recall correctly, lurking around the corner when Bisu was handed a double cheeseburger.
If Flash was looking ahead, that's his problem. This is no excuse. Plenty of professional athletes and teams are guilty of pulling this stunt, and it's their own fault for getting canned. You can't do it. You just can't. At that point it becomes YOUR (Flash's) fault for underestimating ForGG, who's actually been relatively accomplished in the past, at least in the PL. So it's like saying "oh it's just Sea he never gets past the first round of Starleagues, I'll practice TvP for Kal instead) and then getting your ass handed back on a silver platter.
Kudos to forGG, as I mentioned before. I think it's been quite some time (unless I'm mistaken) that a player had the balls to pull off the same proxy three times out of four games. And lest you kid yourself, Flash pulled the "cheese" in game 2 and got steamrolled by ForGG's standard play.
On July 18 2008 03:03 tKd_ wrote:
this will be just like the osl, forgg does the impossible by beating flash as best came from a 2-0 defecit, then forgg will get raped by jaedong so hard that the only entertainment value we get from this game is from its hilarity
It'll be an interesting game, and here's to hoping ForGG can keep it relatively close. They're teammates, and ForGG's better known for his TvZ and TvP, so we could end up with a rather nifty set of games like Lomo vs Jaedong in the GSL. Granted ForGG's not quite a TvZ sniper like Lomo, but he's been around, so he has the veteran craftiness backing him up.
It might still be a 3-0, but it doesn't necessarily mean the games'll be a cakewalk. I mean, if he remains confident in his creativity, I'm even hoping for a Boxer-esque string of tactical fun.
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Canada635 Posts
If you don't like low econ strategies then go play some fastest no rush 20.
This is starcraft, there are no concessions for anyone or anything.
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On July 18 2008 02:43 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2008 02:41 IdrA wrote:So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway. So what happens when a pro cheeses a newb? Does your point still stick? It's not the strategy itself dude. It comes down to who pulls it out the bag. The more popular player tends to be seasoned vet like Boxer or July, who weigh their chances carefully and clearly aren't desperate for all-in wins, especially if they cheese in a MU that they are strong in. Who's a vet that is desperate? Gorush and his goddamned ZvP all-ins.
of course it still stands, and yes it is the strategy. fan favorite, good player, whatever. theyre cheesing because they think its their best chance to win, and no matter what the conditions 5 pool and the like are allin builds. some skill involved in micro, but almost entirely dependant on your opponent not scouting you/guessing you're gonna allin.
i dont really see what you're trying to argue, the builds are do or die no matter who uses them and as such they should get less respect than winning by outplaying the other player.
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On July 17 2008 19:45 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2008 19:44 ICanFlyLow wrote:God dammit, Anyone else that was looking forward to some flash vs jaedong rivalry?  Flash vs Jaedong is like what sAviOr vs Bisu was. And ForGG is like that fucker Mind who denied us our dream final.
I think that Jaedong vs FlaSh is way different than sAviOr vs Bisu in GOMTVMSL S3 because savior and bisu had already met in a final, and it was rape from bisu. also, bisu didn't fucking cheese his way into a final, or cheese during the final. what forgg has done is way way worse because this final was supposed to decide who, between flash and jaedong, is the better player right now, and probably ever. it would have been way way more epic than savior vs nada, savior vs bisu, oov vs boxer, and oov vs july combined. i was expecting a 5 game series and each game going longer than 30 minutes and the last game going for like 40 minutes with a completely mined out map. you know, the craziest, most exciting i-have-ABSOLUTELY-NO-FUCKING-CLUE-WHO-IS-GOING-TO-WIN every second of the game until the last 30 seconds, of every game of the BO5. if there would be 1 game during a fucking starleague final that KESPA would have to pause and restart the game because it didn't look like anyone was going to win it would have been this one imho. however, now we can't enjoy this, and probably won't ever again. if people in korea care about seeing good games as much i think they do, im betting they're all pretty pissed at forgg. what are the chances that flash and jaedong will meet in another starleague final? very, very, very slim. i bet even jeadong is pissed off now that the MSL is already won for him. pretty unsatisfying for a player of his calibur to know that he's won before he actually has. it won't even be challenge for him to beat forgg. he'll be yawning and playing with one hand the entire series.
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i don't know if you guys are baseball fans but this community could really use a starcraft sabematrician. someone who could really analyze the shit out of the database. for example, they would say something like, 'well, the perceived rush win expectency is around 50/50, and the stats from 07-08 seem to support the general perception, with a 52% win percent in favor of the rusher.' (i'm making these stats up, as an example). then they could look at rush stats in 2 player maps vs 4 player maps, look at how rush frequency relates to series context (1 game proleague, v 1 game starleague opening rounds, v 3 and 5 game), how it relates to elo (how much more frequent do weaker players cheese? what is the win expectency of a rush vs a player of even elo? seperated by 50, 100, or 200 points?)
of course rushes would just be one topic. and just like in baseball, i think it would be interesting to have hard evidence, which would give context to our guts.
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One correction:
People keep saying Flash cheesed Bisu twice, but in their game on monty hall, Bisu prepared a cheese himself by going proxy reaver, it's just that his cheese got beat by a speedier cheese 
When one cheese counters another, it's more like a BO lose. That to me is a legit lose.
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On July 18 2008 02:59 .risingdragoon wrote:
ohhsuup, why do you keep posting nonsense with profanity? Fanboy much?
Flash lost. Flash cheated you out of a Flash Jaedong final cus he lost and didn't win. Flash dropped 3 games in a BO5, which is above the cutoff for the most you can lose and not be eliminated.
It's Flash's fault for losing in a game that you can play one of several dozen ways. He picked his cards and lost the hand 3 times to 1.
I'd love for him to play better and pass on, but it's not about me. It's "whoever wins" advances. Before today people crossed off ForGG for dead, so why are people doing the "stupid" again for the final?
well im not as much of a flash fanboy as a FlaSh vs Jaedong arena MSL 08 Finals fanboy.
but yes, I have lost a lot of respect for FlaSh for losing to such an inferior player from strategies that he himself used to use on people much better than him.
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On July 18 2008 03:12 .risingdragoon wrote:One correction: People keep saying Flash cheesed Bisu twice, but in their game on monty hall, Bisu prepared a cheese himself by going proxy reaver, it's just that his cheese got beat by a speedier cheese When one cheese counters another, it's more like a BO lose. That to me is a legit lose.
listen im not even saying forgg didn't win legitamately. im saying that he's a fucking cunt for doing what he did just because he robbed us of jaedong vs flash finals, and the chances of him beating jaedong are even less than the chances of him beating flash
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What is it about "cheese" strategy that people feel is so distasteful? It is a calculated gamble, and if it doesn't pay off big it usually puts the cheeser at a big disadvantage. How boring would it be if players only did standard builds every single game? People seem to act like cheese is no skill, but again they really have to play it perfectly to secure their advantage or else they're usually in trouble. Anyway sucks that Flash lost, maybe next season.
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On July 18 2008 03:07 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2008 02:43 .risingdragoon wrote:On July 18 2008 02:41 IdrA wrote:So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway. So what happens when a pro cheeses a newb? Does your point still stick? It's not the strategy itself dude. It comes down to who pulls it out the bag. The more popular player tends to be seasoned vet like Boxer or July, who weigh their chances carefully and clearly aren't desperate for all-in wins, especially if they cheese in a MU that they are strong in. Who's a vet that is desperate? Gorush and his goddamned ZvP all-ins. of course it still stands, and yes it is the strategy. fan favorite, good player, whatever. theyre cheesing because they think its their best chance to win, and no matter what the conditions 5 pool and the like are allin builds. some skill involved in micro, but almost entirely dependant on your opponent not scouting you/guessing you're gonna allin. i dont really see what you're trying to argue, the builds are do or die no matter who uses them and as such they should get less respect than winning by outplaying the other player.
Well Idra, I think you hit a bullseye by using the word "respect". It comes down to intention, is the intention to cheese cause for disrespect?
July said in his post-game interview that he mostly prepared for games 1 and 3, and that he analyzed Best's game on Troy and found it to be weak to drone drill. That's not cheese-and-pray to me. Granted to outplay someone is more convincing, I think cheese where warranted is at least not cause for disrespect.
As for boxer, the cheeses that he does are multi-stage strategies with pinpoint executions. Who doesn't love that?
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holy shit forgg
didnt expect this
gg's~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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People often forget one thing that applies for everyone and anyone except Chuck Norris: you can't always win.
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yea the thing is i really don't know why anyone wants a forgg vs jaedong finals. you really think forgg has a chance, AND you wouldn't rather see FlaSh, ALSO A TERRAN PLAYER BTW, play jaedong??? how can you not want to see 5 incredibely exciting games, unless you think that forgg actually has a chance. idk how you could be a fan of terran and want forgg to play jaedong instead of flash. OR how you could not be a fan of very exciting games, which jaedong vs FlaSh would have given us. if you think forgg has a chance against jaedong well then -_-;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; to you. biggest upset ever if that happens imo.
edit: if forgg wins i'll never post on TL.net again
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
-_-
forgg's tvz is incredibly potent, not for some godly mnm control but for his timing, as well as the units he has at particular timings in the game that no other terran is capable of producing. The two are teammates, and it's going to be a damn good show.
you know jack shit. I hope forgg wins so you keep your word and bugger off.
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On July 16 2008 10:21 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:fOrGG fOrGG fOrGG 3-0 fOrGG Wee~ + Show Spoiler +
So...close..fuck.
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I hope Forgg wins now hahaha... talk about an underdog. ;/
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EPT
