EPT
[ASL16] Ro16 Group C
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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sysen
27 Posts
Would it be possible to put on top of the thread the "recommended games" option ? You used to do that (and i always found it very helpfull when i cant watch all the games. Like that i can only watch interesting games), but unfortunately, i can't find it anymore on recent ASL 16 threads Thanks a lot ! To don't be completely off-topic '-_- : Hero > Ample Bisu > Sk Bisu > Hero - 2:1 SK>Ample - 2:0 Hero>SK : 2-1 | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
Hero over Bisu. Ample over Soulkey. Hero over Ample. Bisu over Soulkey. Bisu over Ample. The outcome I want: Hero over Bisu Ample over soulkey Ample over Hero Bisu over soulkey Hero over Bisu | ||
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oEkY
Germany649 Posts
On September 11 2023 17:34 RJBTV wrote: Most likely outcome: Hero over Bisu. Ample over Soulkey. Hero over Ample. Bisu over Soulkey. Bisu over Ample. The outcome I want: Hero over Bisu Ample over soulkey Ample over Hero Bisu over soulkey Hero over Bisu That should be the most unlikely outcome, because Hero isnt playing Bisu first, so it wont happen either way  | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On September 11 2023 17:45 oEkY wrote: That should be the most unlikely outcome, because Hero isnt playing Bisu first, so it wont happen either way haha big oopsie. swapped SK and hero by accident. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
but also props to hero for really stretching ample out on the multitask. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
its hero's world, ample is just trying to live in it. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8496 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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TMNT
3091 Posts
On September 11 2023 20:06 Kaal wrote: Was a fairly close game until that lurker cashed in on those probes. On the initial hydra push, Bisu was SUPER close to death but managed to save his own ass by finding overlord at just the right time. If soulkey hadn't been supply blocked for that time then Bisu was probably dead. Once again, questions should be asked why do we have a close game after one player was SUPER close to kill the other with a cheese build. Bisu's downfall was that Lurker and the attack into the choke, but he shouldn't have been in that position in the first place if the matchup was fair. Stubborn people would say there is no imbalance and skill issue, citing win rate and etc. but it does feel like when the stake is high Zerg always resort to hydra bust and only keeps the macro build 3 Hatch Spire when it doesn't really matter. Just look at the number of hydra opening this ASL alone lol. Did we even have a 3H Spire opening yet? | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8496 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium4973 Posts
They have enough options, just no creativity. | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4132 Posts
On September 11 2023 20:32 Uldridge wrote: I think it's up to the protoss to figure it out. If they can't find an answer to hydra bust and are willingly only ever trying to defend with cannons, that is their prerogative. They have enough options, just no creativity. ok my bad TMNT, there is obviously one xD | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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TMNT
3091 Posts
On September 11 2023 20:32 Uldridge wrote: I think it's up to the protoss to figure it out. If they can't find an answer to hydra bust and are willingly only ever trying to defend with cannons, that is their prerogative. They have enough options, just no creativity. The only other option is Reaver I think. But the Reaver still has to sit behind some cannons and I think you have to blindly go Robo lol . And if Zerg goes for Muta then heheh... I think it works when there's a mismatch in level i.e. the Protoss player much better than the Zerg. At equal skill it's just not right. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
we may see another hydra bust yet | ||
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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TMNT
3091 Posts
- if it was Snow, he would grind out the army of Ample with storm that when he reached Snow's natural he'd have barely any tanks left. - if it was Mini, he would go for base trade with the Carriers immediately - if it was Best, he wouldn't go Carrier and killed Ample with a ridiculous Zealot charge into that 3rd base position that looks impossible to attack | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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TMNT
3091 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8496 Posts
Only unloads a single zelot and the reaver shot just once... | ||
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prosatan
Romania8496 Posts
looks bad for bisu  | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
On September 11 2023 22:04 konadora wrote: bisu out.. lol dude's so washed. | ||
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RJBTV
194 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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moktira
Ireland1545 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8771 Posts
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RJBTV
194 Posts
On September 11 2023 22:06 Kaal wrote: Bisu played map 1 well but Map 2 was fucking awful. Map 3 was ok but ample just executed really well. Map 2 he actually did amazing with the carriers but the vultures absolutely destroyed his eco. | ||
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TMNT
3091 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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Kaal
Djibouti2539 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
On September 11 2023 22:38 Kaal wrote: herO has been out of his mind playing ZvT hes playing amazing. like I said, its hero's world, ample just trying to survive in it. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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Zealgoon
China187 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21973 Posts
On September 11 2023 22:40 konadora wrote: Then he should have played better.bisu died for this | ||
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Simplistik
2094 Posts
On September 11 2023 22:07 evilfatsh1t wrote: wow bisus game 2 and 3 were absolutely awful. no dragoon range all game on game 2 and no zealot speed on 3 on top of the failed proxy. whose idea was it to go carriers all 3 games? He probably had dinner with Stork last night. "I've got this amazing build. You just make lots of the best unit and then you win. Works for me nearly every time." | ||
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Simplistik
2094 Posts
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TMNT
3091 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50592 Posts
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TMNT
3091 Posts
Is it because of his tiny windowed mode again? Like maybe at home he's familiar with the setting so it's fine but in the studio a slight difference in the chairs height or distance to the screen that makes him uncomfortable when playing with that tiny window ? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8771 Posts
and the sensitivity to playing on unfamiliar setups will get worse with age, especially for bisu whos notorious for being so sensitive to old habits that he still plays on the old graphics and membrane keyboards. the last few asls bisu's performance on stage have completely tanked, which is curious because his usual games on stream immediately before tournaments arent pretty standard. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4227 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4227 Posts
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Destroyer
Czech Republic937 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5192 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands5192 Posts
A nice upgrade for next ASL would be booths, rehearsal time and make the final match in the ro24 a bo3. | ||
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omahahowitzer
United States98 Posts
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Lazyer
United States365 Posts
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ruhtraeel
Canada125 Posts
He has the highest win rate out of anyone who hasn't won ASL (like almost 60%) and higher than many ASL winners (Light, Royal, Jyj, etc) but he still just usually dies against better players This time he randomly lost to a worse player I noticed a while back that his PvT matchup is lacking compared to Best/Snow because he tries to rely on mechanics/micro to win games, taking bad engagements, whereas Best and Snow don't ever take engagements that rely in micro to win like for every game where he wins with micro: he loses like 5 games against a Terran who overall is much worse than him | ||
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Bonyth
Poland591 Posts
Direct causes for his losses? Polypoid --> vulture raids, that was enough to set the game. Invader --> micro with reavers not good enough / not enough value. His engagement was also bad, maybe he got his obs sniped, i don't know; it's always easy to judge with maphack ; Slow zealots is pretty normal at this stage of the game. His mistakes weren't that numerous. It's sad for me that u judge the players, and not the games. | ||
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omahahowitzer
United States98 Posts
On September 12 2023 07:49 Bonyth wrote: I watch Bisu a lot, and to me, it feels like he doesn't have confidence in ground army playstyle vs terran and will switch to carriers sooner or later. Can't blame him, it's also pretty much a trend now as well. Direct causes for his losses? Polypoid --> vulture raids, that was enough to set the game. Invader --> micro with reavers not good enough / not enough value. His engagement was also bad, maybe he got his obs sniped, i don't know; it's always easy to judge with maphack ; Slow zealots is pretty normal at this stage of the game. His mistakes weren't that numerous. It's sad for me that u judge the players, and not the games. as a low level player, his engage on Invader made no sense because a) he can see Terran does not have a 3rd base yet with 6 fact, b) he only had 6 gateways and 2 carriers making so does not have army advantage. Seems like he should just buy time as long as possible until carriers and interceptors. since you know more about the game, do you disagree and think it was a good decision to engage and just bad execution? | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
Bisu would have won to see him vs Hero. That said, wow Bisu you suck too. | ||
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reincremate
China2216 Posts
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Bonyth
Poland591 Posts
On September 12 2023 08:42 omahahowitzer wrote: as a low level player, his engage on Invader made no sense because a) he can see Terran does not have a 3rd base yet with 6 fact, b) he only had 6 gateways and 2 carriers making so does not have army advantage. Seems like he should just buy time as long as possible until carriers and interceptors. since you know more about the game, do you disagree and think it was a good decision to engage and just bad execution? well, i mentioned in my previous message that the engagement was bad, there is no sugarcoating it. But he needed to engage somewhere, at least partially, engage, do damage with reavers, trade zealots, then disengage. Meanwhile Bisu seemed lost with his 2 shuttles, that were both killed all too easily and engaged when terran was in ok position to receive him. Until the moment of engagement his reavers werent used enough either. Such a build really need some good work in micro, with reavers, or favorable engagements and Bisu certainly failed to show that. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
yeah not defending him, sad that after Ample won, he lost so one-sidedly lol | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5192 Posts
The same would happen to you, Dewalt, Sziky, Gypsy etc. if Artosis would knock you out of the BSL in a bo3 losers bracket. It doesn't mean a player's former glory doesn't get respect anymore, just not at that moment in time. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5192 Posts
Poll: Recommend Final Game Set 3? Yes (4) No (2) If you have time (1) 7 total votes Your vote: Recommend Final Game Set 3? ^Please vote for anti-spoiler purposes! | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13295 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/btbej.jpg) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26147 Posts
On September 12 2023 19:46 RowdierBob wrote: Fill her up, lads. Only so many tears one can shed. Nyoken and eonzerg still handhold me a bit on things like timings, and hey I’m on a forum of BW vets and I’m not a huge fan of talking out of my ass when others are more knowledgeable. I get Soulkey is a better player but I’m unsure why so much of the crit is focusing on the Ample games when Bisu’s play was seemingly worse to me. Missing that solo lurker, sure bad but people do miss things. Brainlessly headbutting a ridiculously well-defended spot when you could have disengaged or circled to top left if you wanted to be aggressive, baffling to even a layman or am I missing something? After a decent defence of a hydra bust that put him in a good spot. Versus Ample he takes a game, puts up a pretty good fight after being hugely behind, game 3 again another more ‘big picture’ tactical blunder. It’s not like he’s got way mechanically slower and just can’t keep up with the young ‘uns anymore, he’s making terrible tactical decisions for engagements or transitions | ||
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Nirli
Bulgaria378 Posts
Friendly bants aside, my boys SK and hero repping hard, although hero didn't look 100% to me. @Wombat, I kind of disagree. Execution from Bisu is very far from his young Bruce Lee self, and he isn't big on the strategy part. My case would be similar for JD, known for his aggressive style, which just doesn't cut it in 2023. Defensive Zerg is way stronger nowadays with all the optimizations, see SK, Action, hero. | ||
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Muff2n
United Kingdom250 Posts
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Artas1984
135 Posts
On September 11 2023 22:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: dude's so washed. YES. THIS IS MY RANT ON BISU. I'VE HAD ENOUGH... In all of 16 seasons of ASL, i have NEVER seen Bisu perform this BAD!!! His builds were garbage (expanding and carrier building at the same after loosing 2 of your reavers is a dumb move). His reaver micro is not even close to Snow (Rain and Mini are at least close to Snow in that regard). He has shown no decisiveness when it comes to critical action (he should have immediately counter-attacked Ample with the carriers instead of wasting time with them in his main base and loosing interceptors). He was very lucky to win game 1. He would loose dragoons to mines even when he had observers around them (only F - B rank players do that). He has no game sense (could not predict even basic vulture harassment into open natural expansion). He always takes the biggest fucking amout of risks possible (even when he saw Soulkey's hydras too late he still was reluctant to build more canons to be safe and almost lost the game). His macro was shit (there is nothing to comment here). He is an idiot too (he expands towards a zerg base instead of deploying a safe base close to his natural expansion. He is playing in minimized screen format - ok, now a lot of players like to play at 4:3 format, nothing to blame here, but Bisu is the only guy, who plays at minimized 4:3 screen instead of full 4:3 screen. I don't care what he says, but he obviously compromises himself in doing that and deeply believes his own shit that this is way to play... I mean - he sees only like 800x600 pixels in the center on a full 1920x1080 monitor and it's just fine... I don't believe that! I've never been so mad at Bisu! This round totally changed my mind about him. I almost want him to retire now. I still think he could get his shit together (unlike Stork, who is washed up beyond the returning point and does not know when to quit, lmao). Of course that does not mean i like Mini more - how can you like a guy (as a straight man) who grows fucking nails and has these convulsions whenever he is loosing? He just makes me uncomfortable. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8771 Posts
On September 13 2023 20:29 Artas1984 wrote: YES. THIS IS MY RANT ON BISU. I'VE HAD ENOUGH... In all of 16 seasons of ASL, i have NEVER seen Bisu perform this BAD!!! His builds were garbage (expanding and carrier building at the same after loosing 2 of your reavers is a dumb move). His reaver micro is not even close to Snow (Rain and Mini are at least close to Snow in that regard). He has shown no decisiveness when it comes to critical action (he should have immediately counter-attacked Ample with the carriers instead of wasting time with them in his main base and loosing interceptors). He was very lucky to win game 1. He would loose dragoons to mines even when he had observers around them (only F - B rank players do that). He has no game sense (could not predict even basic vulture harassment into open natural expansion). He always takes the biggest fucking amout of risks possible (even when he saw Soulkey's hydras too late he still was reluctant to build more canons to be safe and almost lost the game). His macro was shit (there is nothing to comment here). He is an idiot too (he expands towards a zerg base instead of deploying a safe base close to his natural expansion. He is playing in minimized screen format - ok, now a lot of players like to play at 4:3 format, nothing to blame here, but Bisu is the only guy, who plays at minimized 4:3 screen instead of full 4:3 screen. I don't care what he says, but he obviously compromises himself in doing that and deeply believes his own shit that this is way to play... I mean - he sees only like 800x600 pixels in the center on a full 1920x1080 monitor and it's just fine... I don't believe that! I've never been so mad at Bisu! This round totally changed my mind about him. I almost want him to retire now. I still think he could get his shit together (unlike Stork, who is washed up beyond the returning point and does not know when to quit, lmao). Of course that does not mean i like Mini more - how can you like a guy (as a straight man) who grows fucking nails and has these convulsions whenever he is loosing? He just makes me uncomfortable. take a chill pill mate | ||
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psd
France93 Posts
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FunkyDragoon
44 Posts
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TMNT
3091 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Artas1984
135 Posts
On September 14 2023 07:02 Magic Powers wrote: Convulsions whenever he's losing? I don't think you were ever a fan of Bisu, ma boy. You sound like you always hated him. I was talking about Mini, not Bisu... You know.. Mini's grotesque twitches in the chair? Ye, that type of stuff... Anyway, i have been a fan of Bisu since i've known about him! That is exactly why i am so mad! How would you feel if your top 3 favorite protoss of all time, who is considered the headliner of all protoss, performs so poor? It's unacceptable. If you think i am too hard on him, you should watch some of Pusan's savage rants on him! | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On September 14 2023 07:47 Artas1984 wrote: I was talking about Mini, not Bisu... You know.. Mini's grotesque twitches in the chair? Ye, that type of stuff... Anyway, i have been a fan of Bisu since i've known about him! That is exactly why i am so mad! How would you feel if your top 3 favorite protoss of all time, who is considered the headliner of all protoss, performs so poor? It's unacceptable. If you think i am too hard on him, you should watch some of Pusan's savage rants on him! How would I feel? Well, sad of course. But I don't hold people up to unrealistic standards. Do you know how hard it is to even become the best player, and how it's nearly impossible to remain at the top? It's called a dream for a reason - because it's unrealistic. No one should be held to such a standard. Maybe for days or weeks at a time, but never for years. Someone being the top dog for years is a statistical fluke, not the norm. It's your own fault for believing that someone could be expected to be the top dog for decades. Flash was a crazy anomaly, and no one understands to this day how he did all this. It makes no sense from a logical perspective. Drop your expectations a little. Or maybe a lot. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6785 Posts
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