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Recommended Games+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [Set 1] +Poll: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 1?No (7) 47% If you have time (5) 33% Yes (3) 20% 15 total votes Your vote: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 1? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 2?Yes (16) 94% If you have time (1) 6% No (0) 0% 17 total votes Your vote: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 2? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 3?Yes (6) 55% If you have time (3) 27% No (2) 18% 11 total votes Your vote: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 3? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 4?Yes (15) 94% If you have time (1) 6% No (0) 0% 16 total votes Your vote: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 4? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
Poll: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 5?Yes (15) 75% If you have time (4) 20% No (1) 5% 20 total votes Your vote: Recommend Bisu vs Soulkey Game 5? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): If you have time
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On September 17 2022 07:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Can anyone explain why on game 5, on the first zergling attack, bisu moved his two zealots out to engage instead of staying in the sim city choke?
Bisu’s opener was a choke job but some ppl don’t want to admit to it. He inexplicably moved out with those two zeals for reasons only he would know. I’m guessing he underestimated how many lings were there. And then he botched his wall against the next group of lings, letting them through to kill his cannon and again disrupt his mining in the main.
His early game was bad and it gave SK too much of an advantage going into the mid game. The drone snipes gave him some hope but SK was too far ahead by then. Once Bisu moved out the hydra drop counter meant SK only had to defend a big push from Bisu and he was home.
That last game was about Bisu’s mistakes in the early game. The balance whine can’t gloss over that.
I’ll give you arkanoid though. That map is trash for protosses.
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On September 15 2022 19:47 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 18:45 Kaolla wrote:On September 15 2022 14:36 TMNT wrote:On September 14 2022 23:37 J. Corsair wrote:On September 14 2022 22:41 TMNT wrote:On September 14 2022 22:35 RowdierBob wrote:On September 14 2022 21:08 TMNT wrote:On September 14 2022 20:59 RowdierBob wrote:
Death, taxes and Bisu finding a way to bottle it. You seem to keep reading the game wrong. At what point during that last game was he ahead to be able to bottle it? Yeah he had 3 bases and 4 gases but if the supply is equal Protoss is never ahead. I might be a little Bisu biased but this series really highlights how ZvP is a Zerg favored match up. Hydra bust and 9 Pool speed all day long. It’s in reference to the series overall and Bisu’s history going way back. Chill out mate. Stop always trying to pick fights with ppl in these threads. Then it's a bad reference isn't it? He was at no point leading the series. Also I'm not sure how correcting something wrong can be considered picking fight? You aren't correcting anyone. The fact that you think the comment author needs 'correcting' is indicative of the generally condescending nature of your input here. If you don't get the reference that doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect. Your default tone is cynical, abrasive, and confrontational - and it simply isn't warranted here, in my opinion. Look. What he said is factually incorrect. Bisu didn't have a lead at any point in the series therefore could not "bottle it". That much is beyond debatable, whether I "get" his "reference" or not. You don't have to like my tone but saying he read the game wrong is no more cynical than saying something negative about a player. Neither is a personal attack or offensive. Why is the latter commonly accepted but the former not? I don't think you're right man. I agree with you that he was never ahead in this series and even in that last game he was always on the back foot (altho he could've done better with the 3 gas templar advantage), but I think bottle it could also refer to just him being a better player and bottling it against a player who is by many probably considered the worse player and someone he should be able to beat in this setting. Soulkey is the better player. He's literally no. 1 on spon games and more importantly has 66% record vs Bisu and above 60% vs any other Protoss. Anyone thinking Bisu should beat Soulkey in an obvious way is probably disconnected to the modern Korean BW scene.
Which is exactly why I included "in this setting". Soulkey never achieved anything in an official tournament. Bisu did many times. Nice that he's doing well in spon matches, but it doesn't really mean all that much.
Edit: and his winrate of 60%+ also kinda shows that, he was lucky those zergling rushes worked out and Bisu's micro was not on point, otherwise he'd be dead meat...
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On September 17 2022 22:18 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2022 07:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Can anyone explain why on game 5, on the first zergling attack, bisu moved his two zealots out to engage instead of staying in the sim city choke? Bisu’s opener was a choke job but some ppl don’t want to admit to it. He inexplicably moved out with those two zeals for reasons only he would know. I’m guessing he underestimated how many lings were there. And then he botched his wall against the next group of lings, letting them through to kill his cannon and again disrupt his mining in the main. His early game was bad and it gave SK too much of an advantage going into the mid game. The drone snipes gave him some hope but SK was too far ahead by then. Once Bisu moved out the hydra drop counter meant SK only had to defend a big push from Bisu and he was home. That last game was about Bisu’s mistakes in the early game. The balance whine can’t gloss over that. I’ll give you arkanoid though. That map is trash for protosses.
If we’re being honest, its only really the game1 hydra bust that was cheap. Game4 showed that the 9pool could be properly defended.
Still, u gotta admit, one cheap win is plenty in a bo5.
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On September 17 2022 23:28 Kaolla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 19:47 TMNT wrote:On September 15 2022 18:45 Kaolla wrote:On September 15 2022 14:36 TMNT wrote:On September 14 2022 23:37 J. Corsair wrote:On September 14 2022 22:41 TMNT wrote:On September 14 2022 22:35 RowdierBob wrote:On September 14 2022 21:08 TMNT wrote:On September 14 2022 20:59 RowdierBob wrote:
Death, taxes and Bisu finding a way to bottle it. You seem to keep reading the game wrong. At what point during that last game was he ahead to be able to bottle it? Yeah he had 3 bases and 4 gases but if the supply is equal Protoss is never ahead. I might be a little Bisu biased but this series really highlights how ZvP is a Zerg favored match up. Hydra bust and 9 Pool speed all day long. It’s in reference to the series overall and Bisu’s history going way back. Chill out mate. Stop always trying to pick fights with ppl in these threads. Then it's a bad reference isn't it? He was at no point leading the series. Also I'm not sure how correcting something wrong can be considered picking fight? You aren't correcting anyone. The fact that you think the comment author needs 'correcting' is indicative of the generally condescending nature of your input here. If you don't get the reference that doesn't mean it's necessarily incorrect. Your default tone is cynical, abrasive, and confrontational - and it simply isn't warranted here, in my opinion. Look. What he said is factually incorrect. Bisu didn't have a lead at any point in the series therefore could not "bottle it". That much is beyond debatable, whether I "get" his "reference" or not. You don't have to like my tone but saying he read the game wrong is no more cynical than saying something negative about a player. Neither is a personal attack or offensive. Why is the latter commonly accepted but the former not? I don't think you're right man. I agree with you that he was never ahead in this series and even in that last game he was always on the back foot (altho he could've done better with the 3 gas templar advantage), but I think bottle it could also refer to just him being a better player and bottling it against a player who is by many probably considered the worse player and someone he should be able to beat in this setting. Soulkey is the better player. He's literally no. 1 on spon games and more importantly has 66% record vs Bisu and above 60% vs any other Protoss. Anyone thinking Bisu should beat Soulkey in an obvious way is probably disconnected to the modern Korean BW scene. Which is exactly why I included "in this setting". Soulkey never achieved anything in an official tournament. Bisu did many times. Nice that he's doing well in spon matches, but it doesn't really mean all that much. Edit: and his winrate of 60%+ also kinda shows that, he was lucky those zergling rushes worked out and Bisu's micro was not on point, otherwise he'd be dead meat...
But you're talking about achievements in the past, way back to kespa. By that logic Stork and Jaedong should also be considered the better players and should beat Soulkey. Also he won KSL2 while Bisu never won anything in the modern era.
And spongames mean A LOT actually. It literally is the most accurate thing to evaluate a player's level at the current moment. Like, the top 16 on eloboard are almost exactly the same R16 players we have.
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On September 18 2022 00:56 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2022 22:18 RowdierBob wrote:On September 17 2022 07:51 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
Can anyone explain why on game 5, on the first zergling attack, bisu moved his two zealots out to engage instead of staying in the sim city choke? Bisu’s opener was a choke job but some ppl don’t want to admit to it. He inexplicably moved out with those two zeals for reasons only he would know. I’m guessing he underestimated how many lings were there. And then he botched his wall against the next group of lings, letting them through to kill his cannon and again disrupt his mining in the main. His early game was bad and it gave SK too much of an advantage going into the mid game. The drone snipes gave him some hope but SK was too far ahead by then. Once Bisu moved out the hydra drop counter meant SK only had to defend a big push from Bisu and he was home. That last game was about Bisu’s mistakes in the early game. The balance whine can’t gloss over that. I’ll give you arkanoid though. That map is trash for protosses. If we’re being honest, its only really the game1 hydra bust that was cheap. Game4 showed that the 9pool could be properly defended. Still, u gotta admit, one cheap win is plenty in a bo5.
Absolutely. Bisu lost the gamble on that game but it's how high level BW goes.
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My understanding is that SK was a late bloomer or new gen top tier Zerg that could've won a Starleague had BW continued to flourish under KeSPA. In the same league as Jangbi or even Fantasy (or just one slight level below). And he's the only rising BW star that made a smooth transition to SC2 and won stuff (Inno doesn't really count because his BW career was somewhat middle-tier).
Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements?
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On September 19 2022 13:53 RKC wrote:
My understanding is that SK was a late bloomer or new gen top tier Zerg that could've won a Starleague had BW continued to flourish under KeSPA. In the same league as Jangbi or even Fantasy (or just one slight level below). And he's the only rising BW star that made a smooth transition to SC2 and won stuff (Inno doesn't really count because his BW career was somewhat middle-tier).
Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements?
I really cant remember. He definitely had a name for himself. But that “new gen top tier zerg” sounds more like zero. Very strong zerg. Lost to Flash in his first finals, which no one can really fault him for. But as I said, was such a long time ago that its hard to say for sure.
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Bisutopia19368 Posts
On September 19 2022 13:53 RKC wrote:
My understanding is that SK was a late bloomer or new gen top tier Zerg that could've won a Starleague had BW continued to flourish under KeSPA. In the same league as Jangbi or even Fantasy (or just one slight level below). And he's the only rising BW star that made a smooth transition to SC2 and won stuff (Inno doesn't really count because his BW career was somewhat middle-tier).
Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements?
Rain has the same exact history as Soulkey. Both were up and coming players before the SC2 transition. I'd say Soulkey was closer to being a well established BW pro then Rain was. Soulkey had a really cool alternative approach to ZvT that put him in the spotlight. Ultimately, he lived in Zero's shadow at that time. Soulkey was closer to ranks 5-10 then he was to top 5 before the transition, which is still a really good place to be.
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On September 20 2022 01:17 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 13:53 RKC wrote:
My understanding is that SK was a late bloomer or new gen top tier Zerg that could've won a Starleague had BW continued to flourish under KeSPA. In the same league as Jangbi or even Fantasy (or just one slight level below). And he's the only rising BW star that made a smooth transition to SC2 and won stuff (Inno doesn't really count because his BW career was somewhat middle-tier).
Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements? Rain has the same exact history as Soulkey. Both were up and coming players before the SC2 transition. I'd say Soulkey was closer to being a well established BW pro then Rain was. Soulkey had a really cool alternative approach to ZvT that put him in the spotlight. Ultimately, he lived in Zero's shadow at that time. Soulkey was closer to ranks 5-10 then he was to top 5 before the transition, which is still a really good place to be.
Yes, that comparison is super on point! And Rain also transition seamlessly into SC2. Speaking of Zero, where was he during the hybrid period? Did he even try SC2 or just stuck with BW?
Anyway, all three are roughly in the same league. SK hasn't achieved as much during the modern BW era. But his Achilles heel has been ZvZ, which is a big clutch due to Zerg dominance in recent years (Zero, soma, hero, larva).
Both SK and Larva have a unique style of playing Zerg especially ZvT. That's why I'm drawn to them. Hope that SK can secure the ASL crown this season! Snow is another long-suffering top tier player that I'll be rooting for.
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Soulkey was really, really good in the end of the Kespa timespan. He was one of the few Zergs who knew how to handle Terran’s mech switch. (He’d do simultaneous swarm/lurker drops at 2+ mineral lines and swarm/lurker hold his own choke points. Terrans would just crumble.) He hadn’t won an individual league but his star was still on the rise. He’s been one of the most consistent players if you roll together the end of the Kespa timespan and the ASL timespan — not #1 but always someone that #1 needed to respect, even when that was Flash.
Zero gave an interview (during ASL timespan but talking about events in Kespa timespan) where he said that the KT coach used to call his coach and ask if Flash could practice TvZ with him. Then the coach start asking for either him or Soulkey, and then eventually just Soulkey. Sorry I don’t have a link to that interview, maybe someone in the hive mind will remember where it can be found.
Also, Soulkey just never gets picked early in group selection. Nobody wants him in their group.
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Fuck SK and his ZvP cheese
He always cheeses in ZvP and shows how abusive zerg is in this matchup
Im so sick of Soulkey ruining tournaments
Zero chance of winning this tournament anyways. He will choke in the finals.
Wish Rain were still playing to slap this fool back in his place as a ZvP cheeser
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Soulkey playing his race as he should. To its maximum potential.
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On September 20 2022 01:17 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 13:53 RKC wrote:
My understanding is that SK was a late bloomer or new gen top tier Zerg that could've won a Starleague had BW continued to flourish under KeSPA. In the same league as Jangbi or even Fantasy (or just one slight level below). And he's the only rising BW star that made a smooth transition to SC2 and won stuff (Inno doesn't really count because his BW career was somewhat middle-tier).
Am I correct in my assessment? Or maybe I'm slightly coloured by his SC2 achievements? Rain has the same exact history as Soulkey. Both were up and coming players before the SC2 transition. I'd say Soulkey was closer to being a well established BW pro then Rain was. Soulkey had a really cool alternative approach to ZvT that put him in the spotlight. Ultimately, he lived in Zero's shadow at that time. Soulkey was closer to ranks 5-10 then he was to top 5 before the transition, which is still a really good place to be.
Wrong. By.Sun aka Bison aka Rain won a fucking Proleague Finals match vs Action, one the biggest stages EVER in SC1 history. How much more established can you get (sure a little more but still, playing in a proleague finals is huge)
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EPT
