On October 30 2017 20:22 mcmascote wrote: So sad Larva lost. Now if you're neutral you better hope for a ZvP final, because he has no chance (outside of cheeses) against Flash.
He prolly loses handily to Bisu too, but the MU favors him.
@Taardadiel, and how do you expect Her0 to play Bisu? Maybe he'll go for hydra busts... Is that more enjoyable? Because taking the natural of an empty main and defending it to guarantee a 4th gas is an universal strategy of zergs nowadays. Then it's up for the toss how the game will proceed. Rain and Bisu are good enough to keep attacking and harassing keeping the zerg play defensively if not, if a toss decide to play defensive as well then the Z can be aggressive. Larva's muta's switches are a joy to watch if you let him have the economy to do it, his multitask is also insane. It was Rain that forced him to turtle.
Now outside of Crossing Field and prolly gladiator, taking a natural and guaranteeing a 4th gas is standard and if HerO tries to play cute against Bisu he's gonna get destroyed.
Taking the quick 4 gas after turtling up on a second natural is absolutely NOT the universal strategy of Zergs nowadays. That style is actually pretty dated and was popular around Savior era to about 2010/2011. Even on FIghting Spirit, most Zergs nowadays opt to take their 3rd at their natural 3rd and not another main's natural. And while Protoss does have a couple options for aggressive play to stop that 4 gas style, such as 6-8 Gateway Dragoon bust on the simcity, it's almost always better for Protoss to simply do economic harassment and get even or ahead on bases and prepare for the lategame.
It's like you don't even watch the game you're talking about.
On October 30 2017 20:22 mcmascote wrote: So sad Larva lost. Now if you're neutral you better hope for a ZvP final, because he has no chance (outside of cheeses) against Flash.
He prolly loses handily to Bisu too, but the MU favors him.
@Taardadiel, and how do you expect Her0 to play Bisu? Maybe he'll go for hydra busts... Is that more enjoyable? Because taking the natural of an empty main and defending it to guarantee a 4th gas is an universal strategy of zergs nowadays. Then it's up for the toss how the game will proceed. Rain and Bisu are good enough to keep attacking and harassing keeping the zerg play defensively if not, if a toss decide to play defensive as well then the Z can be aggressive. Larva's muta's switches are a joy to watch if you let him have the economy to do it, his multitask is also insane. It was Rain that forced him to turtle.
Now outside of Crossing Field and prolly gladiator, taking a natural and guaranteeing a 4th gas is standard and if HerO tries to play cute against Bisu he's gonna get destroyed.
Taking the quick 4 gas after turtling up on a second natural is absolutely NOT the universal strategy of Zergs nowadays. That style is actually pretty dated and was popular around Savior era to about 2010/2011. Even on FIghting Spirit, most Zergs nowadays opt to take their 3rd at their natural 3rd and not another main's natural. And while Protoss does have a couple options for aggressive play to stop that 4 gas style, such as 6-8 Gateway Dragoon bust on the simcity, it's almost always better for Protoss to simply do economic harassment and get even or ahead on bases and prepare for the lategame.
It's like you don't even watch the game you're talking about.
Not to mention the whole "if herO tries to play cute he's gonna get destroyed". Maybe you would say that if you have no idea who herO is, but he is one of he best zergs in the scene. He seems to have slipped a smidge, but he's still a monster ZvPer.
That said (and I don't watch herO's stream much at all so I could be wrong) herO has always been more of a fan of close base 3rd and 5/6 hatch aggression than the 4 gas camp style.
On October 30 2017 20:22 mcmascote wrote: So sad Larva lost. Now if you're neutral you better hope for a ZvP final, because he has no chance (outside of cheeses) against Flash.
He prolly loses handily to Bisu too, but the MU favors him.
@Taardadiel, and how do you expect Her0 to play Bisu? Maybe he'll go for hydra busts... Is that more enjoyable? Because taking the natural of an empty main and defending it to guarantee a 4th gas is an universal strategy of zergs nowadays. Then it's up for the toss how the game will proceed. Rain and Bisu are good enough to keep attacking and harassing keeping the zerg play defensively if not, if a toss decide to play defensive as well then the Z can be aggressive. Larva's muta's switches are a joy to watch if you let him have the economy to do it, his multitask is also insane. It was Rain that forced him to turtle.
Now outside of Crossing Field and prolly gladiator, taking a natural and guaranteeing a 4th gas is standard and if HerO tries to play cute against Bisu he's gonna get destroyed.
Taking the quick 4 gas after turtling up on a second natural is absolutely NOT the universal strategy of Zergs nowadays. That style is actually pretty dated and was popular around Savior era to about 2010/2011. Even on FIghting Spirit, most Zergs nowadays opt to take their 3rd at their natural 3rd and not another main's natural. And while Protoss does have a couple options for aggressive play to stop that 4 gas style, such as 6-8 Gateway Dragoon bust on the simcity, it's almost always better for Protoss to simply do economic harassment and get even or ahead on bases and prepare for the lategame.
You were faster, it seems.
And since mcmascote was asking me what I prefer, here, I'll tell you what I prefer:
(first thing that comes to mind)
I don't mind an occasional hydra bust in a bo5, I don't mind a proxy gate or two, or a 5pool. A single turtle game would be fine too, I guess, but the Rain vs Larva series got me a bit overboard after SK beat Rain in the Ro16 with something vaguely similar on Crossing Field and then Rain clashed head-on time and time again into a stellar defense for two more games in the Ro8. I guess Bisu would have had his own set of adjustments if he had to play against this style - which would make for more entertainment than 200/200 protoss army colliding with terrain, static D and immaculate, perfect observer sniping - but we'll never know, will we.
On October 31 2017 03:06 TaardadAiel wrote: You were faster, it seems.
And since mcmascote was asking me what I prefer, here, I'll tell you what I prefer:
Sorry, didn't mean to butt in on your conversation, was just trying to address the dated stance he was taking.
Please, I never meant it that way. It was more like you said pretty much what I wanted to.
Anyway, said build looked viable in the hands of larva. Rain looked pretty helpless, though he was close to busting in game 4. Was it just extremely well executed or a psychological blind spot for Rain, since you say zergs don't prefer it nowadays?
On October 31 2017 03:06 TaardadAiel wrote: You were faster, it seems.
And since mcmascote was asking me what I prefer, here, I'll tell you what I prefer:
Sorry, didn't mean to butt in on your conversation, was just trying to address the dated stance he was taking.
Please, I never meant it that way. It was more like you said pretty much what I wanted to.
Anyway, said build looked viable in the hands of larva. Rain looked pretty helpless, though he was close to busting in game 4. Was it just extremely well executed or a pshychological blind spot for Rain, since you say zergs don't prefer it nowadays?
I haven't watched the series between Rain and Larva, been very busy and haven't had the chance to backtrack. If Rain played anything like how he did vs. Soulkey in groups, then I'd have to say that it was a conceptual error from Rain combined with suspect micro and tactical decisions. I read Kwark's recap a few days ago and he seems to agree with that.
I've seen Larva do this build in practice more than other Zergs when I was watching more actively over the summer, and to great effect at times.
Тhe recap was a bit tilted in my opinion. Maybe Kwark was just rooting hard for Rain and vented some frustration. I don't think Rain played that sloppily. But yea, the general feeling was like the game vs Soulkey in the Ro16. Well-spread lurker defense on favorable terrain and great observer sniping.
On November 02 2017 00:37 superjoppe wrote: Can her0 play ZvT? Seems we’re gonna have a very shitty final cause her0 is good at ZvZ.
hero can play zvt he is very good at it a d we will have a great finals,he has a great macro multitask and his sucess doesnt depend in agresion like shine.i can promess you we will have a great finals.he is also a champion after the kespa era.
On November 02 2017 00:37 superjoppe wrote: Can her0 play ZvT? Seems we’re gonna have a very shitty final cause her0 is good at ZvZ.
hero can play zvt he is very good at it a d we will have a great finals,he has a great macro multitask and his sucess doesnt depend in agresion like shine.i can promess you we will have a great finals.he is also a champion after the kespa era.
I agree with this. I've been watching Hero really take it to Mind on stream.
Mind is no Flash, but Hero can ZvT pretty well. Even if it's a 3-0 the games should be pretty fun, and I can definitely see Hero taking a game.
EPT
