On January 15 2017 21:49 Hall0wed wrote: Does anyone have an example or 2 of Protoss pros holding BBS? I am intrigued and wondering how it looks.
the classic
Holy shit! What an epic game! Had me hanging at the edge of my seat the whole time! Really thought Protoss would've died to the cheese. So surreal, almost seemed like an action movie, the suspense building up every little second. What a hero dragoon! He deserves a Fenix / Tassadar medal!
Who were the players?
Terran was Light (Pretty infamous for his shitty TvP and godlike TvZ), Protoss was Tempest (relatively unknown player irrc).
Holy shit! What an epic game! Had me hanging at the edge of my seat the whole time! Really thought Protoss would've died to the cheese. So surreal, almost seemed like an action movie, the suspense building up every little second. What a hero dragoon! He deserves a Fenix / Tassadar medal!
Who were the players?
Terran was Light (Pretty infamous for his shitty TvP and godlike TvZ), Protoss was Tempest (relatively unknown player irrc).
On January 15 2017 21:10 Cele wrote: srsly, not even taking into account who you are rooting for, that game 5 was uninspiring and boring. Well executed by Sea, but from a spectators PoV... meh.
From spectators view? What about from the players view? Those game are just crap to play.
Holy shit! What an epic game! Had me hanging at the edge of my seat the whole time! Really thought Protoss would've died to the cheese. So surreal, almost seemed like an action movie, the suspense building up every little second. What a hero dragoon! He deserves a Fenix / Tassadar medal!
Who were the players?
Terran was Light (Pretty infamous for his shitty TvP and godlike TvZ), Protoss was Tempest (relatively unknown player irrc).
Hm... So was it a BO win that Light botched up?
Yes and no. I think nobody in their right minds would say that mind played perfectly. He could have been more aggressive at times and might have won the game then. However, this was insanely well defended by the protoss imho. The way he played that he didn't leave Light much room for error. But yeah, the map was also in favour of Light... All things considered it's just very impressive that Tempest was able to hold, regardless of Light's play.
Well, that was a bit disappointing. I like Sea, but I think Best vs Flash would've been a better Finals.
But hey, if that's the level of Best's decision-making (i.e. bad), maybe we can't assume that he would've been better in the Finals... Flash would game-sense him to kingdom-come. Though it's still kinda hard to see Sea v Flash being a terrific series either.
Do we now have to root for Jaedong to take down Flash in an upset, since JD vs Sea would be a more interesting Finals? Hmm, odds are against that outcome.
But then again, this ASL has been Upset Central™. So who the eff knows anymore.
On January 15 2017 21:12 TT1 wrote: Weaker player won.. now we have to watch a TvT finals, puke.
The stronger player won, or is winning not how you determine who the stronger player is? (facepalm)
No, this is a logical fallacy. It's not always the better player who wins. That's why we have "upsets", especially in Bo1 and Bo3/Bo5 _increases_ the chance of the better player winning.
Then my question would be how you would see BeSt as the better player.
BeSt lost in a bo5. Sea also went further than him in the last ASL.
G5 was just cruel. Feels like a set-over-set poker beat-down where both players had sneaky surprise cards (e.g. Sea had 5-5, Best had 4-4, flop turns out a 5 & 4).
Best was the more solid player, but he botched up G1 and G4. He didn't do enough to win. He lost, and deservingly so.
On January 15 2017 23:03 [[Starlight]] wrote: Well, that was a bit disappointing. I like Sea, but I think Best vs Flash would've been a better Finals.
But hey, if that's the level of Best's decision-making (i.e. bad), maybe we can't assume that he would've been better in the Finals... Flash would game-sense him to kingdom-come. Though it's still kinda hard to see Sea v Flash being a terrific series either.
Do we now have to root for Jaedong to take down Flash in an upset, since JD vs Sea would be a more interesting Finals? Hmm, odds are definitely against that outcome.
But then again, this ASL has been Upset Central™. So who the eff knows anymore.
How is it an Upset Central? The former greats (Flash, JD, Sea, Best, Bisu, Stork) are wrecking the post-KeSPA upstarts. Isn't this supposed to happen given time and practice?
(Sorry, I haven't been following the games before the semis, so maybe I'm missing something in terms of form, performance, etc.)
On January 15 2017 21:15 Broodwar4lyf wrote: no scouting best, really?
His b.o was selected specifically for that map, he planned on going 10/15 goon pressure. Probably would have followed it up with a proxy citadel/temp archive dt allin (because he wouldnt have put his probe there to robo, seeing as Sea could have spawned further away). Problem i have is he knows he's the better lategame player so theres no reason to play risky in game 5.
Just go 1 gate, dont skip ur zealot (which he rarely does) and go into goon + range, head into a macro game from there and get a freewin vs bbs builds.
to be fair, I doubt best was even thinking about bbs because who the fuck goes bbs ever at the pro level
Still he should havd scouted I really don't get why pros dont scout sometimes. Sure you lose abit of economy but the information you get is much more worth it.
BBS is not that rare in rampless/reverse ramp map....
On January 15 2017 23:03 [[Starlight]] wrote: Well, that was a bit disappointing. I like Sea, but I think Best vs Flash would've been a better Finals.
But hey, if that's the level of Best's decision-making (i.e. bad), maybe we can't assume that he would've been better in the Finals... Flash would game-sense him to kingdom-come. Though it's still kinda hard to see Sea v Flash being a terrific series either.
Do we now have to root for Jaedong to take down Flash in an upset, since JD vs Sea would be a more interesting Finals? Hmm, odds are definitely against that outcome.
But then again, this ASL has been Upset Central™. So who the eff knows anymore.
How is it an Upset Central? The former greats (Flash, JD, Sea, Best, Bisu, Stork) are wrecking the post-KeSPA upstarts. Isn't this supposed to happen given time and practice?
(Sorry, I haven't been following the games before the semis, so maybe I'm missing something in terms of form, performance, etc.)
Eh? Okay... how about Sea over Bisu, and in a complete stomp, too... that surprised a lot of ppl.
Best totally outclassing Hero, the alleged 'God of ZvP'. Another surprise to many.
Unheralded GuemChi getting all the way to the Ro8, and then actually putting up quite a good fight vs Flash. And I say 'unheralded' as someone who really likes GuemChi, and thinks he's underrated.
Effort, possibly the best Z in the world right now, and at least Top 3, getting eliminated in the Round of 24.
All the Top ASL1 finishers except Sea getting shown the door very, very quickly. Blink and you missed 'em.
So... what ASL you been watchin', bro?
I mean, you can argue, "Well, wasn't a surprise to ME, yadda yadda yadda"... and that's fine, but you have to acknowledge that a lot of ppl *were* surprised by a lot of the results. And for good reasons, usually.
On January 15 2017 21:12 TT1 wrote: Weaker player won.. now we have to watch a TvT finals, puke.
The stronger player won, or is winning not how you determine who the stronger player is? (facepalm)
No, this is a logical fallacy. It's not always the better player who wins. That's why we have "upsets", especially in Bo1 and Bo3/Bo5 _increases_ the chance of the better player winning.
Then my question would be how you would see BeSt as the better player.
BeSt lost in a bo5. Sea also went further than him in the last ASL.
Uhm, first of I didn't argue that Best was the better player in this case. I just don't like the argument that "the player who won is better" so I had to say something.
That aside, I would argue that Best is probably a little bit better than Sea, just looking at the performance of both in terms of lategame management (macro, unit movement, multitasking) in this tournament. However, this series is indeed not indicative of who is better. Game 1 was a cheese that didn't work. Game 2+3, Best was economically ahead by the build and carried that into the end game. Game 4 was a hard fail by Best and Game 5 was a BO win.
I personally think that neither Best nor Sea has a better chance against Flash (that's the point of discussion here, isn't it?). I would favour Flash against both of them but both have a serious chance for an upset. I don't know why people are being upset about a potential Flash vs Sea finals. I personally think that could be good.
Today is my happiest Starcraft day. 1st Baby (TY) takes his 1st trophy with 200k$ after 11 year of progaming and now Sea advances 1st time to finals.
This series were really entertaining. Right after Tastosis started talking about which risks you must do to take deciding match where they mentioned those epic GSL finals where on last game MVP makes proxy 2 rax , Sea proceeds doing it. Balls of steel! Sea is no choker anymore! TT BeSt but Sea deserved it. BeSt throw 4th game pretty hard.
Can't wait for JD vs. FlaSh. I really want 3-2 again! Hope Dong got some mindfuck in his pocket. So many salt against Sea LOL. It's disgusting to read it. Even if we got TvT finals it's not end of world, last finals were super one sided even if it wasn't mirror. Pray it's not ZvZ. I still think Sea can take 1 game out from FlaSh.
On January 15 2017 21:12 TT1 wrote: Weaker player won.. now we have to watch a TvT finals, puke.
The stronger player won, or is winning not how you determine who the stronger player is? (facepalm)
No, this is a logical fallacy. It's not always the better player who wins. That's why we have "upsets", especially in Bo1 and Bo3/Bo5 _increases_ the chance of the better player winning.
Then my question would be how you would see BeSt as the better player.
BeSt lost in a bo5. Sea also went further than him in the last ASL.
Uhm, first of I didn't argue that Best was the better player in this case. I just don't like the argument that "the player who won is better" so I had to say something.
That aside, I would argue that Best is probably a little bit better than Sea, just looking at the performance of both in terms of lategame management (macro, unit movement, multitasking) in this tournament. However, this series is indeed not indicative of who is better. Game 1 was a cheese that didn't work. Game 2+3, Best was economically ahead by the build and carried that into the end game. Game 4 was a hard fail by Best and Game 5 was a BO win.
I personally think that neither Best nor Sea has a better chance against Flash (that's the point of discussion here, isn't it?). I would favour Flash against both of them but both have a serious chance for an upset.
I don't know why people are being upset about a potential Flash vs Sea finals. I personally think that could be good.
A lot of 'em probably think Best would've had a slightly better chance vs Flash (I agree, i.e. 'dat late game'), and that TvT is long and boring (it can be).
But, any TvT with Flash in it sorta automatically becomes more interesting, doesn't it? Hard to find his level of execution dull.
On January 15 2017 21:12 TT1 wrote: Weaker player won.. now we have to watch a TvT finals, puke.
The stronger player won, or is winning not how you determine who the stronger player is? (facepalm)
No, this is a logical fallacy. It's not always the better player who wins. That's why we have "upsets", especially in Bo1 and Bo3/Bo5 _increases_ the chance of the better player winning.
Then my question would be how you would see BeSt as the better player.
BeSt lost in a bo5. Sea also went further than him in the last ASL.
Uhm, first of I didn't argue that Best was the better player in this case. I just don't like the argument that "the player who won is better" so I had to say something.
That aside, I would argue that Best is probably a little bit better than Sea, just looking at the performance of both in terms of lategame management (macro, unit movement, multitasking) in this tournament. However, this series is indeed not indicative of who is better. Game 1 was a cheese that didn't work. Game 2+3, Best was economically ahead by the build and carried that into the end game. Game 4 was a hard fail by Best and Game 5 was a BO win.
I personally think that neither Best nor Sea has a better chance against Flash (that's the point of discussion here, isn't it?). I would favour Flash against both of them but both have a serious chance for an upset. I don't know why people are being upset about a potential Flash vs Sea finals. I personally think that could be good.
#
I think people dislike this potential finals because they fear a stomp. Even though Sea is in the finals he has yet to show really impressive games this season. Meanwhile BeSt actually has a winning record last month vs. Flash and probably was the only one left who can go toe to toe with Flash in macro games. It probably also doesn't help that many people dislike tvt a lot
That game four was a strategic(!) masterpiece from Best. Hiding the fast expansion, tricking Sea into thinking he has to defend vs dts or reaver. BeSt's idea was amazing.
He was ahead. Easily.
I dont know what happened. Carriers was an odd choice. His control was not worthy of a pro gamer at times.
I really hoped Best would win because a possible TvT final would be really sad for me. I dont enjoy TvT in particular.. Best vs Jeadong Best vs Flash would both have been amazing.
Now i really hope Jeadon upsets Flash and we see a TvZ =)
On January 15 2017 23:50 MaGic~PhiL wrote: That game four was a strategic(!) masterpiece from Best. Hiding the fast expansion, tricking Sea into thinking he has to defend vs dts or reaver. BeSt's idea was amazing.
He was ahead. Easily.
I dont know what happened. Carriers was an odd choice. His control was not worthy of a pro gamer at times.
I really hoped Best would win because a possible TvT final would be really sad for me. I dont enjoy TvT in particular.. Best vs Jeadong Best vs Flash would both have been amazing.
Now i really hope Jeadon upsets Flash and we see a TvZ =)
It was great mind-gaming by Best with the ninja expo. I think he got too cocky and went for carriers to end the game in a flourish.
What surprised was the sudden mass of goliaths from Sea. The observer didn't really catch when exactly he first started pumping them (they just suddenly joined the tank-vulture push midway, from what I saw). Maybe they were well-hidden. Which meant that Sea counter-mind-gamed Best towards the end. And that pulled him the win. If that was what happened, great recovery from Sea!
EPT
