Set 1 Game 2: If you like TvT and would like to see a strong game from the winner proving that he can win a game straight up without build order differentials, this is your game. Set 2 Game 2: Better of the 2 games if you like PvP, the loser wasn't playing very well overall and winner played how he had to.
Flash will win 2-0. No clue what's going to happen with Bisu/Kal. They're both so inconsistent. Regardless, I don't think either one is going to make it past the winner of Flash/Fantasy so their best hope is to get 3rd place.
Why do so many people cheer for this Fantasy guy???? Blows my mind how people would rather see him play rather than the most skilled player in SC history. Did people already forget how this guy was celebrating like it was the greatest achievement of his life after he all-in proxy 2-fact-ed and won against Flash's fast expand?
On August 18 2010 15:09 Wings wrote: Why do so many people cheer for this Fantasy guy???? Blows my mind how people would rather see him play rather than the most skilled player in SC history. Did people already forget how this guy was celebrating like it was the greatest achievement of his life after he all-in proxy 2-fact-ed and won against Flash's fast expand?
Flash is not the most skilled player, there are plenty more skilled than him. And a lot of people just plain don't like Flash for his style. If you don't like terran then it's pretty boring.
On August 18 2010 15:09 Wings wrote: Why do so many people cheer for this Fantasy guy???? Blows my mind how people would rather see him play rather than the most skilled player in SC history. Did people already forget how this guy was celebrating like it was the greatest achievement of his life after he all-in proxy 2-fact-ed and won against Flash's fast expand?
Flash is not the most skilled player, there are plenty more skilled than him. And a lot of people just plain don't like Flash for his style. If you don't like terran then it's pretty boring.
Name 3. And don't give me any relative to their time period skill crap.
Bisu and Flash please. I don't want a slumping Kal representing Korea. Well, I guess it wouldn't be so bad if Fantasy (instead of Flash) advanced though.
Flash is not the most skilled player, there are plenty more skilled than him.
List please, bonus points if it doesn't include JD. And no "compared to the skill at the time" crap either.
You repeated the person 2 posts back almost exactly. Bisu and Jaedong are better than Flash when they are at their top. And of course, the bonjwas were all better for their time. I've really only seen Flash beat players of a lower level than him consistently. I have yet to see him show that he is better than everyone else. He just rose when everyone else was not at their top. Maybe after a few more titles.
On August 18 2010 15:09 Wings wrote: Why do so many people cheer for this Fantasy guy???? Blows my mind how people would rather see him play rather than the most skilled player in SC history. Did people already forget how this guy was celebrating like it was the greatest achievement of his life after he all-in proxy 2-fact-ed and won against Flash's fast expand?
So celebrating is BM now? Does winning vs Flash in an ace game between KT and T1 (aka the biggest team rivalry ever) not warrant some kind of celebration at all?
Either Fantasy or Flash would be awesome to see in LA imo. Two formidable players in their own way.
I think it's the nature of Terran that allows him to be more successful too. It seems far more difficult to consistently beat lower skilled players as P or Z as there's always something that can happen in the PvZ and TvZ matchup's to beat even the best. While the traditionally difficult T matchup, PvT is much more figured out these days and T can play as safe as possible.
On August 18 2010 16:58 Lightwip wrote: Bisu and Jaedong are better than Flash when they are at their top.
hello you seem like the SKT version of superarc
can you really say that with a straight face LOL?
jaedong: won starleagues in three consecutive seasons + golden mouse. maybe. bisu: won two consecutive MSLs. ... didn't qualify for the OSL the first season, 2-0'd by flash (albeit cheese) in Ro8 second season. lol? his second "resurgence" lasted hardly a few months. and he didn't have > 80% winrate.
flash: two consecutive dual finals + WL championship + led team to first place in proleague (and raped pre-round 5 anyway).
On August 18 2010 17:07 infinity2k9 wrote: I think it's the nature of Terran that allows him to be more successful too. It seems far more difficult to consistently beat lower skilled players as P or Z as there's always something that can happen in the PvZ and TvZ matchup's to beat even the best. While the traditionally difficult T matchup, PvT is much more figured out these days and T can play as safe as possible.
I agree with this. To be honest, while I trust a good terran to win against a decent protoss 80% of the time, I'm not always confident that Bisu will crush a weak zerg simply because they can pull some BS out of their dirty zerg hat(see:by.hero). TvZ is pretty metagame based, it's a matchup that evolves a lot. PvT isn't that toss-favored either sometimes. On the other hand, I'm always particularly surprised if someone of a standard skill level takes a game off an S-class terran(Flash any or Skyhigh TvT, Light TvZ etc). It's really not as easy to do.
Flash is not the most skilled player, there are plenty more skilled than him.
List please, bonus points if it doesn't include JD. And no "compared to the skill at the time" crap either.
You repeated the person 2 posts back almost exactly. Bisu and Jaedong are better than Flash when they are at their top. And of course, the bonjwas were all better for their time. I've really only seen Flash beat players of a lower level than him consistently. I have yet to see him show that he is better than everyone else. He just rose when everyone else was not at their top. Maybe after a few more titles.
Bisu and Jaedong were not more "skilled" than Flash. Proof:
You look at who they lost to, and how. How do you count that? You use matchup ELOs, and you'll see that when Flash loses, it's usually to people with very, very high vT matchup ELOs or people whose highest matchup ELO is vT. That's been the case, day in, day out. That's not the case with Jaedong or Bisu (especially Bisu, where people like Sea beat him at PvT).
You want to measure his performance against "the best"? Let's do a head to head comparison with the players you say are better than Flash--Jaedong and Bisu. Flash has a winning record of 16-15 against Jaedong and their last Bo5, in the MSL FINALS of all places, ended in a 3-0 prison rape. Against Bisu, Flash has a winning record of 12-9 (or 11-8 in standard leagues) which turns into 9-4 when you don't count WCG and GOM. So how is Flash less skilled than them?
Lightwip, it's one thing to dislike Flash and Terran in general but you lose all credibility when you say retarded things like "there are plenty of players more skilled than Flash". If you can't separate your personal bias from at least somewhat reasonably objective evaluations of skill then you shouldn't say anything. It's especially bad because you've demonstrated time and time again that you have no interest in learning anything about Terran, and thus have no leg to stand on whatsoever when it comes to judging Terran player skill.
On August 18 2010 17:56 nayumi wrote: lol you guys seriously think flash can even take a game from fantasy ?
what is this? blind flash fanboyism?
XD
in all seriousness though, this promises to be a very fun setup, because Flash has great defensive psychological strength (game sense) while Fantasy has great offensive psychological strength (prepared BOs, sniping). Vice versa they're both strong too, but relatively speaking that's how they shine.
the dynamics are great too, first a Bo3 and then a Bo5. Should be interesting to see how Fantasy decides to play the cards (aka builds) in his hand.
I actually think Nada in his prime was a better terran than Flash... but Flash is still peaking so he can always change my mind. And I don't think it's possible to say who the best player EVER is. Especially with the 3 different races. The closest you can get is say who the best player of a certain race was. When you cross the race barriers of SC, the mechanics, metagame, map, etc. All come into account. (Not that those things aren't factors in the ladder, but far more so disregarding the race played). If you are talking currently, I would say Flash is the best, but not undisputed the best. So long as JD remains playing well, as he has been lately, Flash will always having someone chasing his heels.
That said i wish JD vs. Flash was a better rivalry >:o They are too damn respectful of each other. Flash says he thinks JD is better in an interview, the JD says Flash is better in his interview. God damnit insult each other ffs XD I mean I like how u guys are cool with each other but bad blood always makes rivalries funner
On August 18 2010 18:24 Yxes2211 wrote: I actually think Nada in his prime was a better terran than Flash... but Flash is still peaking so he can always change my mind. And I don't think it's possible to say who the best player EVER is. Especially with the 3 different races. The closest you can get is say who the best player of a certain race was. When you cross the race barriers of SC, the mechanics, metagame, map, etc. All come into account. (Not that those things aren't factors in the ladder, but far more so disregarding the race played). If you are talking currently, I would say Flash is the best, but not undisputed the best. So long as JD remains playing well, as he has been lately, Flash will always having someone chasing his heels.
That said i wish JD vs. Flash was a better rivalry >:o They are too damn respectful of each other. Flash says he thinks JD is better in an interview, the JD says Flash is better in his interview. God damnit insult each other ffs XD I mean I like how u guys are cool with each other but bad blood always makes rivalries funner
Yeah, Flash and Jaedong seem to act like co-Bonjwas sometimes haha
An early WCG thread woot :D> Jaedong won today so I can watch this without having to cheer for any1 (so much less stressful that way). Flash vs Fantasy should be a fun series, creativity and vultures vs rock solid mechanics
On August 18 2010 18:24 Yxes2211 wrote: I actually think Nada in his prime was a better terran than Flash... but Flash is still peaking so he can always change my mind. And I don't think it's possible to say who the best player EVER is. Especially with the 3 different races. The closest you can get is say who the best player of a certain race was. When you cross the race barriers of SC, the mechanics, metagame, map, etc. All come into account. (Not that those things aren't factors in the ladder, but far more so disregarding the race played). If you are talking currently, I would say Flash is the best, but not undisputed the best. So long as JD remains playing well, as he has been lately, Flash will always having someone chasing his heels.
That said i wish JD vs. Flash was a better rivalry >:o They are too damn respectful of each other. Flash says he thinks JD is better in an interview, the JD says Flash is better in his interview. God damnit insult each other ffs XD I mean I like how u guys are cool with each other but bad blood always makes rivalries funner
Skillwise Flash is miles ahead of Nada in his prime, simply because the overall skill of progamers increases as time goes by. Even Savior admitted that if he played like he did at his prime, he wouldn't be good enough to win among todays progamers. So purely looking at skill definately Flash right now is better than Nada back then.
Now, if we're looking at how much a player won over everyone else, etc etc its a different story but the truth is the collective skill of progamers today is much bigger so thats a bad way to gauge who is better in terms of beating more people
I wonder what the mindgames are like for the WCG->MSL matchups. A player will likely save their better builds for MSL I would think, but what's the strategy for the WCG games? Flash will probably play to his full strength in both series, can Fantasy afford it?
Well, Oov will have perhaps 4 hours to analyze the WCG series to tell Fantasy some last minute adjustments to make for MSL. I hope Fantasy can break the wall this time.
On August 18 2010 22:14 Zona wrote: I wonder what the mindgames are like for the WCG->MSL matchups. A player will likely save their better builds for MSL I would think, but what's the strategy for the WCG games? Flash will probably play to his full strength in both series, can Fantasy afford it?
Well, Oov will have perhaps 4 hours to analyze the WCG series to tell Fantasy some last minute adjustments to make for MSL. I hope Fantasy can break the wall this time.
I dunno, I'd take WCG pretty seriously if I was them. LA is such a nice city to travel to. It might not seem like too much for us here in North America, but in Korea how many chances like this would you get (especially if you're a progamer living 90% of his life in a practice house). On top of that curb stomping some foreigners to show them the difference between Sc1 koreans and Sc2 koreans would be pretty fun as well
Why would anyone want Fantasy to go to LA? He looks like the most quiet introvert ever. I think Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu would be much more jolly and approachable.
On August 18 2010 23:16 darkmetal505 wrote: Why would anyone want Fantasy to go to LA? He looks like the most quiet introvert ever. I think Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu would be much more jolly and approachable.
Have you even heard any of their interviews and seen Bisu on any shows? Just cuz Bisu is better looking than Fantasy doesn't mean he's more sociable. Bisu is like one of the most shy and awkward progamers ever.
On August 18 2010 15:09 Wings wrote: Why do so many people cheer for this Fantasy guy???? Blows my mind how people would rather see him play rather than the most skilled player in SC history. Did people already forget how this guy was celebrating like it was the greatest achievement of his life after he all-in proxy 2-fact-ed and won against Flash's fast expand?
What? The fun of WCG is watching the Koreans curbstomp overmatched non-Koreans. 40 minute turtle games defeats that.
I love Fantasy and all and would love to see him win a starleague...but honestly I don't think he'll take a single game off Flash in all these upcoming matches. Maybe 1 from cheese.
Flash haters seems to be gathering their strengths recently. One game from time to time when Flash turtles and all those haters scream that he can't do anything but turtle... Flash wins, that's bad, because he used gay strategy. Flash loses, well, that just proves that he is just plain bad...
Watch a bit more of Flash games to see that the guy is super diverse and can pull out any strategy he wants. And he can pwn noobs not worse than Fantasy for sure. Check his game vs Soulkey from winner's league...
On August 19 2010 03:00 Lebesgue wrote: Flash haters seems to be gathering their strengths recently. One game from time to time when Flash turtles and all those haters scream that he can't do anything but turtle... Flash wins, that's bad, because he used gay strategy. Flash loses, well, that just proves that he is just plain bad...
Watch a bit more of Flash games to see that the guy is super diverse and can pull out any strategy he wants. And he can pwn noobs not worse than Fantasy for sure. Check his game vs Soulkey from winner's league...
I would also like to add that Flash usually plays safe as well because too many people are out to cheese him. 5/10 times he gets cheesed, but still wins of course. Flash can play safe and win cuz he knows hes just plain better. Why does he need to do anything fancy or risky when he's just plain better? Maybe thats why all you haters think he's "boring". He wins off of subtle adjustments and management.
I know this isn't the thread for it, and we shouldn't be discussing it, but if I kinda want to voice my opinion on the matter.
Best player of all time? I'd say Jaedong. Just simply because of how long he has been at #1 or fighting for #1. I think "time at the top" is a much better standard for best player of all time than "who would win right now". There are some days where non S-Class players look invincible, do we even consider them in these best of all time discussions? No; albeit that is a bit of an over exaggeration in my Jaedong:Flash comparison. What I respect most about Jaedong is just how long he has been dominating, which is something Flash will always be chasing after until Jaedong retires or stops being a bad ass.
On August 18 2010 15:09 Wings wrote: Why do so many people cheer for this Fantasy guy???? Blows my mind how people would rather see him play rather than the most skilled player in SC history. Did people already forget how this guy was celebrating like it was the greatest achievement of his life after he all-in proxy 2-fact-ed and won against Flash's fast expand?
Flash is not the most skilled player, there are plenty more skilled than him. And a lot of people just plain don't like Flash for his style. If you don't like terran then it's pretty boring.
? name another player that has a 70% win ratio in all 3 matchups please.
Flash is not the most skilled player, there are plenty more skilled than him.
List please, bonus points if it doesn't include JD. And no "compared to the skill at the time" crap either.
You repeated the person 2 posts back almost exactly. Bisu and Jaedong are better than Flash when they are at their top. And of course, the bonjwas were all better for their time. I've really only seen Flash beat players of a lower level than him consistently. I have yet to see him show that he is better than everyone else. He just rose when everyone else was not at their top. Maybe after a few more titles.
I honestly wonder what makes you say this. It can't honestly be because Flash doesn't beat top players like you said, as he has beaten more top players more often in the previous months than Bisu or Jaedong have ever consistently done, and it showed in both his overall statistics and in ELO. It's why he has winning records against both Bisu and Jaedong. :>
You say a "few" more titles but he's already got as many titles as Bisu (More if you count gom) and by any definition of a "few" more he'd have more titles than Jaedong or Nada.
On August 19 2010 06:22 InFdude wrote: Imagine if all 3 games between Flash and Fantasy are like 1 hour long.Then they would have something like 2 hours before the MSL games :D
And then get stuck in a traffic jam, so both ran all the way to the MBC studio, only to play another five games of TvT immediately without even a bathroom break. :D
On August 19 2010 06:22 InFdude wrote: Imagine if all 3 games between Flash and Fantasy are like 1 hour long.Then they would have something like 2 hours before the MSL games :D
And then get stuck in a traffic jam, so both ran all the way to the MBC studio, only to play another five games of TvT immediately without even a bathroom break. :D
Somebody kidnap Fantasy and replace him with Canata so we'll see something like this.
Bisu is the most prepared in this tournament Kal to lost a lot of performance when I was in Round 4 of the Proleague. And unlike muchisimopara Bisu that ah when I was improved this season, Big Changes!!!!
On August 19 2010 03:50 tbrown47 wrote: I know this isn't the thread for it, and we shouldn't be discussing it, but if I kinda want to voice my opinion on the matter.
Best player of all time? I'd say Jaedong. Just simply because of how long he has been at #1 or fighting for #1. I think "time at the top" is a much better standard for best player of all time than "who would win right now". There are some days where non S-Class players look invincible, do we even consider them in these best of all time discussions? No; albeit that is a bit of an over exaggeration in my Jaedong:Flash comparison. What I respect most about Jaedong is just how long he has been dominating, which is something Flash will always be chasing after until Jaedong retires or stops being a bad ass.
That's one of the dumbest things I've ever read on TL, and you have stiff competition there, Lightwip.
Anyway, either Flash or Fantasy would play very entertaining games against foreigners. I don't much care who wins, but I hope the games are good because I'll be watching live :D
Rooting for Bisu over Kal. Flash/JD/Bisu would be such an amazing crew to send to LA.
I think we will likely see the sort of play that Light employed against Effort, not really seeming to rely on standard play in an effort to give an advantage in the later MSL
On August 19 2010 07:30 ]343[ wrote: i'm confused as to why this reasoning doesn't mean nada is the best of all time?
ok I suppose he hasn't been #1
but staying in the top 5-10 or so (and winning starleagues) over 4 years apart is a much longer stretch of dominance if you ask me
though ... wait, if jaedong keeps raping in 2011, i suppose that would be 4 years too. hmmmm.
anyway flash vs fantasy should definitely be good since they're clanmates and good friends in addition to being two of the top terrans
I agree, though I think both Flash and Jaedong have a fair shot at matching NaDa's performance:
Just looking at KeSPA rankings, between March 2002 (the first month he appears on the KeSPA lists that TL has) and November 2007 (the second time he fell out of the top 10, but didn't climb back out), NaDa had spent seventeen months at first, eleven months at second, eight months at third, six months at fourth, three months at fifth, seven months at sixth, four months at seventh, zero months at eight, and four months at ninth.
So, of those 69 months (or about five-and-three-quarter years), he spent 60 of them in the top 10, and he spent about three years (36 months) in the top 3.
At this point, I think that Jaedong will probably surpass the numbers for staying in the top three - starting in January 2008 till now (which basically includes only the period where he has been doing exceptionally well), he's spent 32 months in the top 5, of which 25 months were in the top two and 27 were in the top 3.
Flash is actually also fairly close to that mark for time spent in the top 3 - for the same time period (January 2008 till now) he's spent 19 months in the top two and and 22 months in the top 3 - and he could pass Jaedong for time at number one if he stays on for a few more months.
It seems so strange to have two players potentially at that level simultaneously, though.
Stupid draws -_- such great players yet 2 mirrors. Any other arrangement would have been pure awesome. Fantasy vs Kal, Fantasy vs Bisu, Flash vs Kal, Flash vs Bisu.....all would have been 10 times more epic
I wonder how much either Flash or Fantasy will reveal during WCG when the MSL is on the line later. Anyone else feel like they might hold back during these matches?
Fantasy is well prepared for the two port. Flash might get a little out of it, but not enough to justify the expense. He'll need some drop play to catch up here.
On August 19 2010 12:15 SubtleArt wrote: Wait, is fantasy red or yellow? I just tuned in some1 just suicided a bunch of golis so id imagine he's fantasy
Unbelievable... Flash gets in a hole and Fantasy digs him out of it. Now Fantasy is behind in every possible way (except maybe faster upgrade, since he went early academy) and is going to lose like an idiot.
Fantasy gives away a ton of golaiths for wraiths, which I don't really *get*. He's given up positioning too. I think he suspected that Flash had more wraiths and less tanks, but Flash gave up on the two port some time ago.
Fantasy tried to break the centre line of Flash ... but he got only 2 gollies, one of which died to tanks ... the other one got picked off by a group of wraiths ... Wraiths getting free tank kills ... flash got his 4th up and running
Woah. That was pretty crazy. Another build order disadvantage to complete domination.
Interesting shift in TvT strategy from Flash. It looks like he's decided wraiths are a lot more useful than as just sort of a surprise tactic, and is using them really effectively in the mid-game.
That was the only map they're playing again tonight. The next two should be interesting because they're not being played in MSL so maybe some crazy cheeses?
On August 19 2010 12:20 SubtleArt wrote: Complete domination by flash. I've never seen fantasy get crushed that horrifically in a tvt before, holy shit.
That wasn't domination. That was one player failing pathetically. Flash played solid, but he didn't do anything special.
On August 19 2010 12:20 kawatan wrote: flash: i counter counters with sheer skill
FLASH: I rush wraiths, do no damage, and sit passively at home with tanks and a bunker. FANTASY: I counter your passive tank play by attacking with clumped goliaths. FLASH: ... FLASH: Okay.
On August 19 2010 12:20 SubtleArt wrote: Complete domination by flash. I've never seen fantasy get crushed that horrifically in a tvt before, holy shit.
That wasn't domination. That was one player failing pathetically. Flash played solid, but he didn't do anything special.
But Flash's siege tank micro was so amazing!
And on a serious note, fantasy will take this next game, guaranteed. There will be no silly comments about how well he played. People will say that Flash played poorly. Either of these may end up being true, but the result will be same.
On August 19 2010 12:20 SubtleArt wrote: Complete domination by flash. I've never seen fantasy get crushed that horrifically in a tvt before, holy shit.
That wasn't domination. That was one player failing pathetically. Flash played solid, but he didn't do anything special.
Flash out thought Fantasy. He focused on tanks when Fantasy expected wraiths, so he made a lot of goliaths which couldnt do anything (doesn't mean they had to die though! wtf was that attack). Only later did he switch to wraiths which owned Fantasy. Granted Fantasy should not have thrown away all those goliaths so Flash shouldn't've have been able to execute such a successful wraith transition, but it was a nice mindgame.
On August 19 2010 12:20 SubtleArt wrote: Complete domination by flash. I've never seen fantasy get crushed that horrifically in a tvt before, holy shit.
That wasn't domination. That was one player failing pathetically. Flash played solid, but he didn't do anything special.
how is getting read perfectly and winning despite starsense?
On August 19 2010 12:20 kawatan wrote: flash: i counter counters with sheer skill
FLASH: I rush wraiths, do no damage, and sit passively at home with tanks and a bunker. FANTASY: I counter your passive tank play by attacking with clumped goliaths. FLASH: ... FLASH: Okay.
Lol
But: I accidentlay liquibetted Fantasy (misclick) and was all excited when he was ahead -_-
On August 19 2010 12:20 kawatan wrote: flash: i counter counters with sheer skill
FLASH: I rush wraiths, do no damage, and sit passively at home with tanks and a bunker. FANTASY: I counter your passive tank play by attacking with clumped goliaths. FLASH: ... FLASH: Okay.
Lol. I could just see Boxer and Oov shaking their heads when that happened.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Eww its TvT
i think its special game for players to analyze, like how flash placed his tanks and why he did it the way he did.
Then you should watch every single game of Flash. There is always tons of things one can learn from his play. Let it be tanks or turret placement or whatever
Flash did an excellent job distracting the goliaths with wraiths during Fantasy's first attack. From there you can't hope to catch up against Flash. GG.
On August 19 2010 12:03 ohN wrote: Fantasy 5-0 Flash imo. Flash is a great player but he's kinda boring to watch (imo).
lol
But I admit, Flash losing five consecutive TvTs in the same day would be something else. But it is not this day.
Man, did Fantasy really think Flash wasn't at least going to check that obvious spot for a proxy?? Given that they have MSL later and this is a map not in the rotation?? I know hindsight is 20/20 but still....
2-0 incoming ... you just don't let Flash get early advantage, especially 14-cc kind of advantage ... that's like asking a friendly brown bear at the bus station to look after you 12 y/o daughter while you went for a quick piss ...
On August 19 2010 12:28 darktreb wrote: Man, did Fantasy really think Flash wasn't at least going to check that obvious spot for a proxy?? Given that they have MSL later and this is a map not in the rotation?? I know hindsight is 20/20 but still....
On August 19 2010 12:20 SubtleArt wrote: Complete domination by flash. I've never seen fantasy get crushed that horrifically in a tvt before, holy shit.
That wasn't domination. That was one player failing pathetically. Flash played solid, but he didn't do anything special.
Flash out thought Fantasy. He focused on tanks when Fantasy expected wraiths, so he made a lot of goliaths which couldnt do anything (doesn't mean they had to die though! wtf was that attack). Only later did he switch to wraiths which owned Fantasy. Granted Fantasy should not have thrown away all those goliaths so Flash shouldn't've have been able to execute such a successful wraith transition, but it was a nice mindgame.
What mindgame? Flash made wraiths, and when he saw that Fantasy had goliaths and scan, he switched to tanks. Then when Fantasy failed and suicided all his goliaths, he used his two starports to make wraiths again to take advantage of Fantasy's reduced goliath count.
How is adjusting your unit composition based on the opponent's unit composition a mindgame?
On August 19 2010 12:20 SubtleArt wrote: Complete domination by flash. I've never seen fantasy get crushed that horrifically in a tvt before, holy shit.
That wasn't domination. That was one player failing pathetically. Flash played solid, but he didn't do anything special.
Flash out thought Fantasy. He focused on tanks when Fantasy expected wraiths, so he made a lot of goliaths which couldnt do anything (doesn't mean they had to die though! wtf was that attack). Only later did he switch to wraiths which owned Fantasy. Granted Fantasy should not have thrown away all those goliaths so Flash shouldn't've have been able to execute such a successful wraith transition, but it was a nice mindgame.
What mindgame? Flash made wraiths, so that Fantasy had goliaths and scan so he switched to tanks. Then when Fantasy failed and suicided all his goliaths, he used his two starports to make wraiths again to take advantage of Fantasy's reduced goliath count.
How is adjusting your unit composition based on the opponent's unit composition a mindgame?
Usually ppl make more than 3 wraiths when going 2port even after the opponent gets goliaths.
Flash adding 2 more facs and pushing forward with his forces, Fantasy harassing Flash's nat with mass wraiths, loses a fair bit of them to Flash's wraiths who came win with scans before fantasy could react.The last wraith is chased away by a goliath and turrets.
Flash unable to push forward with his army due to mines at the moment.
Fantasy loses his remaining tanks that went to siege under flash's nat. Flash with complete army advantage now, and attacking fantasy's 3rd with wraiths. The tanks are sieged on fantasy's highground.
Fantasy losing all of his scvs at his 3rd now. CC destroyed.
Fantasy plays very overaggressive with his tanks and gets them way out of position, losing several to wraiths as his wraiths are overwhelmed. Flash now controls his high-ground.
Fantasy was apparently not satisfied with a base lead and wanted to shell Flash's nat as well. He loses his base lead as a consequence.
Fantasy cleans up flash's tanks with a new wave of wraiths and secures his territory once again.
Flash getting a 3rd starport, and expoing at 6 oclock now.
Fantasy attempting tank aggression, and brings the wraiths to support. fantasy sieges under flash's nat. Flash evacuates his nat for now. Flash's wraiths once again attack fantasy's who is late with a scan, and loses a few before retreating. Fantasy's tanks begin to die to the wraiths, as his wraiths come back for another engagement.
Fantasy slips a couple vultures into flash's 3rd, and kill a few scvs before dying.
Fantasy attempting to buy some time with vultures and mines but is unsuccessful. Flash's forces advance towards fantasy's highground from the south.
Fantasy defending with a handful of tanks and vultures. Flash with a dozen tanks, some goliaths and his wraiths.
Flash attacks fantasy's 4.5 expo, the expo's defensive forces die. Flash sieging inside, while being attacked by a couple of wraiths. The wraiths eventually kill the tanks.
Flash brings a second wave, along with wraiths, and the expo is evacuated. The CC is once again destroyed.
Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
His only chance in MSL is some very creative cheese. Proxies doesn't work vs Flash's maphack so he needs to come up with something else. In straight game it will just be rape.
On August 19 2010 12:48 Avidkeystamper wrote: Hope Fantasy doesn't suck in the MSL games. Not that it'll change the outcome ofc, I'd just prefer watching entertaining games.
I'm going to be really surprised if the MSL series isn't close. I don't think either player prepared hard for this (Flash has been feinting a love for 2 port Wraith in WCG in my opinion ... don't think he'll be doing it as much when it "counts") and in that case of course Flash's naturally superior skill will carry him to an easy victory.
I'm expecting insanely creative TvT stuff from Fantasy tonight.
I expect a lot more fight in the MSL matches though... Fantasy must have something up his sleeve. Well its time to see if Bisu can take it - cause he has to or else my LB goes .
It's times like these that I miss Skyhigh. It's a shame he fails so bad in his other MUs that we'll never get to see his godly TvT tested against Flash in a Bo5.
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
He beat gorush 2-1 with 2 sunken break timing pushes before getting fucked by jaehoon. He didn't do all that well
Those games were hilarious. XD Flash>>>Fantasy. I expext Fantasy to have some really funky all-ins prepared for their series in MSL, there's no way he can win 3 straight up games vs Flash.
Am I the only one amused by the angry black dude commerical? o,o
On August 19 2010 12:51 Holgerius wrote: Those games were hilarious. XD Flash>>>Fantasy. I expext Fantasy to have some really funky all-ins prepared for their series in MSL, there's no way he can win 3 straight up games vs Flash.
Doesnt matter flash is just gonna maphack scout those all ins
On August 19 2010 12:50 Rinrun wrote: I expect a lot more fight in the MSL matches though... Fantasy must have something up his sleeve.
Bunker rush and proxy facs (or give 2 port another attempt, though that doesn't really work either). Doubt it would work, but I'm guessing it will be what he tries. 9/10 times he can't win a macro game against Flash unless if Flash does something really really stupid.
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
It usually is. Korea will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Funny enough, usually Korea does not take 1st, 2nd and 3rd, due to Koreans meeting each other prior to the semi-finals. Last year was like the first time in a long when Koreans grabbed all three. There are also the odd cases like Android who actually grabbed 2nd place through real skill.
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
It usually is. Korea will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
i bet flash will take 1st this year... he deserves it!
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
well Idra , maybe, but the others? so sad, so sad, these days
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
He beat gorush 2-1 with 2 sunken break timing pushes before getting fucked by jaehoon. He didn't do all that well
AHh, the old 'fuck it I'll cheese' mentality. Works some of the time.
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
He beat gorush 2-1 with 2 sunken break timing pushes before getting fucked by jaehoon. He didn't do all that well
A win is a win, plus he took a game off jaehoon as well. I wasn't implying koreans weren't going to dominate. Just that it will be the same as always. Foreigners won't get beat any worse than normal.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
It usually is. Korea will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Funny enough, usually Korea does not take 1st, 2nd and 3rd, due to Koreans meeting each other prior to the semi-finals. Last year was like the first time in a long when Koreans grabbed all three. There are also the odd cases like Android who actually grabbed 2nd place through real skill.
They usually take 2 out of the 3, or 3 out of 3. This year it will be 3 again.
I only hope that Flash deson't let his guard off and does not underestimate Fantasy. Sure, Fantasy got completely dominated here but he is still a dangerous opponent and surely he ha prepared special builds for MSL.
On August 19 2010 12:56 Lebesgue wrote: I only hope that Flash deson't let his guard off and does not underestimate Fantasy. Sure, Fantasy got completely dominated here but he is still a dangerous opponent and surely he ha prepared special builds for MSL.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
Because that's not always interesting unless you're a fan of the winner.
On August 19 2010 12:47 tree.hugger wrote: Ah, Fantasy, I was wrong. Well at least you get your chance at redemption pretty soon.
lol you're setting yourself up for another disappointment.
I have to say, my faith in Fantasy's ability to make good TvT decisions is a little shaken. Everything just looked a little off. I'd pass it off as a daily thing, but he does have to play in only a few hours. He had the advantage in both games, and used his units poorly afterwards. I still would much rather he win and play an entertaining series against Jaedong than have Flash win and get a crappy final, but I might not get my wish.
Nonetheless, I'd be surprised if fantasy plays that poorly later tonight. He's not that bad, and he'll get an opportunity to show it, even if he loses the series.
On August 19 2010 12:58 muramasa wrote: The current SKT shirts are just awful.
I think fantasy knows flash isn't stupid, and flash thinks he's preparing some cheese. So i predict an mid-game strategy from fantasy, not an all-in. CUz thats just way too predictable.
On August 19 2010 12:53 DarkMatter_ wrote: I don't see any of the Koreans losing even a single game to a foreigner this time around. Especially if it's Flash, Jaedong and Bisu (or Effort).
Yeah, should be EZ until the Koreans meet each other. Though unless I'm mistaken, Bisu, Stork and Jaedong didn't suffer any losses to foreigners last year.
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
It usually is. Korea will take 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
Funny enough, usually Korea does not take 1st, 2nd and 3rd, due to Koreans meeting each other prior to the semi-finals. Last year was like the first time in a long when Koreans grabbed all three. There are also the odd cases like Android who actually grabbed 2nd place through real skill.
And who could forget PJ, a protoss player, eliminating Savior in 2007. :S
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
Because that's not always interesting unless you're a fan of the winner.
the game was fun to watch, both played to their best skills, how's that not interest?
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
The skill gap difference in TvT between these 2 guys is kinda significant so that's why it's not THAT entertaining. Complete dominance: yes; entertaining: yes if you're a Flash fan or Fantasy hater, no if you're a neutral audience.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
i'm a noob for voting no? lol
we already know flash is better than fantasy. just because a game showed that doesn't mean it's worth watching
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
He beat gorush 2-1 with 2 sunken break timing pushes before getting fucked by jaehoon. He didn't do all that well
A win is a win, plus he took a game off jaehoon as well. I wasn't implying koreans weren't going to dominate. Just that it will be the same as always. Foreigners won't get beat any worse than normal.
A win's a win, but a sunken break win is absolutely useless in determining skil.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
I don't know, Fanta made pretty big mistakes - fail cheese - he moved out with wraith tank even tho he was up a gas and thus he lost his position and his third
made you should look harder before calling anyone a "nub"
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
Because that's not always interesting unless you're a fan of the winner.
You don't have to be a fan of a player to enjoy incredibly high level TvT. Flash's decision making was really phenomenal. Just see how he responded to what Fantasy was doing each time and how he capitalized on every small advantage he got.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
The skill gap difference in TvT between these 2 guys is kinda significant so that's why it's not THAT entertaining. Complete dominance: yes; entertaining: yes if you're a Flash fan or Fantasy hater, no if you're a neutral audience.
this is TVT my friend, unless it's glaring skill difference it'll never be as quick or action-packed as the game these 2 just played. fantasy did what he could and filled airtime with plenty of action.
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
He beat gorush 2-1 with 2 sunken break timing pushes before getting fucked by jaehoon. He didn't do all that well
A win is a win, plus he took a game off jaehoon as well. I wasn't implying koreans weren't going to dominate. Just that it will be the same as always. Foreigners won't get beat any worse than normal.
A win's a win, but a sunken break win is absolutely useless in determining skil.
How is grabbing a perfect timing window not a skill?
If anything that's what separates Flash's bio play from other Terrans' to be honest.
Sunken break is completely different from 4-pool or BBS. It actually requires good scouting and timing or even micro to actually succeed.
P/S: im not saying Idra is up to Flash's timing level but you get the point.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Watch if you have time (Vote): Whoo MSL preview
Why do you nubs vote no for game 2, it was such a technical game that unquestionably showed who was superior, there was no scapegoating BO loss or glaring mistake fail, it was pure skills
I don't know, Fanta made pretty big mistakes - fail cheese - he moved out with wraith tank even tho he was up a gas and thus he lost his position and his third
made you should look harder before calling anyone a "nub"
On August 19 2010 12:49 letian wrote: Just thought how It will be interesting to see WCG played in LA with all major non-korean players switched to sc2 and not training for sc, that will be massacre, cannon fodder holiday
I dunno, Idra did pretty well in osl qualifiers with sc2 practice.
He beat gorush 2-1 with 2 sunken break timing pushes before getting fucked by jaehoon. He didn't do all that well
A win is a win, plus he took a game off jaehoon as well. I wasn't implying koreans weren't going to dominate. Just that it will be the same as always. Foreigners won't get beat any worse than normal.
A win's a win, but a sunken break win is absolutely useless in determining skil.
How is grabbing a perfect timing window not a skill?
If anything that's what separates Flash's bio play from other Terrans' to be honest.
Sunken break is completely different from 4-pool or BBS. It actually requires good scouting and timing or even micro to actually succeed.
P/S: im not saying Idra is up to Flash's timing level but you get the point.
It's really not that complicated, zerg muta timings are more or less set in stone depending on their build. Hiding it / disguising it is really what it comes down to, and while that's impressive its really not asking too much for a guy at that level
Kal's speed-shuttle is repulsed (takes only shield damage) but Bisu had to retract his army and cancel his planned expansion. He's taking his close third and sneaking a DT around; Kal's taking his own close third and flying 2 shuttles.
Bisu's attack is repelled, but he kills a lot of probes at Kal's third. Kal tries to expand against but gets his probe sniped. Now he's trying shuttle harass again, probably w/templar.
On August 19 2010 13:08 .risingdragoon wrote: more like skt fans being sour puss voting no
game 2 is recommended for high skills
and also kt fans voting yes just because flash won
high skills from flash, from fantasy some really poor decisions to move out really cost him the game
I think matching tech for tech, adaptation, and timing vults, etc. going mano a mano is GG.
There was no one thing fantasy could've done to have won that one
look at the other comments;;
fanta was up in upgrades and gas bases and yet he still decided to move out of his defensive position and thus lost his 3rd gas as well as his wraiths and tanks which let flash secure his 3rd as well as get more map control
it was an entertaining game and the builds and response from flash was interesting, its just that fantasy made some big mistakes and it was not a close game at all, thus not really a game i would recommend
Damn, Bisu screws up his attack and loses a ton of units. Such bad positioning. Bisu's reavers where in real bad positions, couldn't even fire scarabs. All the while Kal's reavers were taking down Bisu's units
On August 19 2010 13:08 .risingdragoon wrote: more like skt fans being sour puss voting no
game 2 is recommended for high skills
and also kt fans voting yes just because flash won
high skills from flash, from fantasy some really poor decisions to move out really cost him the game
I think matching tech for tech, adaptation, and timing vults, etc. going mano a mano is GG.
There was no one thing fantasy could've done to have won that one
look at the other comments;;
fanta was up in upgrades and gas bases and yet he still decided to move out of his defensive position and thus lost his 3rd gas as well as his wraiths and tanks which let flash secure his 3rd as well as get more map control
it was an entertaining game and the builds and response from flash was interesting, its just that fantasy made some big mistakes and it was not a close game at all, thus not really a game i would recommend
that wasn't a mistake, you can't call it a mistake just cus it failed
it was a gamble and he lose it. if it succeeded people would be singing a diff tone, calling it timing and fantasy a genius or whatever. and why not, he was up a starport and 1 base econ
On August 19 2010 13:08 .risingdragoon wrote: more like skt fans being sour puss voting no
game 2 is recommended for high skills
and also kt fans voting yes just because flash won
high skills from flash, from fantasy some really poor decisions to move out really cost him the game
I think matching tech for tech, adaptation, and timing vults, etc. going mano a mano is GG.
There was no one thing fantasy could've done to have won that one
look at the other comments;;
fanta was up in upgrades and gas bases and yet he still decided to move out of his defensive position and thus lost his 3rd gas as well as his wraiths and tanks which let flash secure his 3rd as well as get more map control
it was an entertaining game and the builds and response from flash was interesting, its just that fantasy made some big mistakes and it was not a close game at all, thus not really a game i would recommend
that wasn't a mistake, you can't call it a mistake just cus it failed
it was a gamble and he lose it. if it succeeded people would be singing a diff tone, calling it timing and fantasy a genius or whatever.
Either way, it was complete rape by flash... not really a close game nor one that I would recommend
Some cute wraith valk engagements does not change the fact that fantasy never really had a chance after he lost his force and his 3rd
On August 19 2010 13:19 integral wrote: lol bisu? lose an army, take an expansion? I don't get it
whats not to get, if he doesn't take it, he'll be mroe behind.
um. he could have harassed kal's third instead of wasting his army to do less damage. I was wtfing about the whole thing, not just about expanding before his opponent when he was 40 psi down.
On August 19 2010 13:20 squaremanhole wrote: I still don't understand why Bisu took so long to get HTs/storm
Bisu has been failing left and right lately and it's very frustrating as a fan. He got his natural up and running before Kal, he took out Kal's two shuttles, two reavers and a dragoon early on and was some way, some how STILL behind Kal.
Bisu was so damn stubborn with that push up the 3rd. He could plainly see how much reinforcement Kal had and just refused to stop pushing until he loses at least 10 goons and a reaver.
On August 19 2010 13:08 .risingdragoon wrote: more like skt fans being sour puss voting no
game 2 is recommended for high skills
and also kt fans voting yes just because flash won
high skills from flash, from fantasy some really poor decisions to move out really cost him the game
I think matching tech for tech, adaptation, and timing vults, etc. going mano a mano is GG.
There was no one thing fantasy could've done to have won that one
look at the other comments;;
fanta was up in upgrades and gas bases and yet he still decided to move out of his defensive position and thus lost his 3rd gas as well as his wraiths and tanks which let flash secure his 3rd as well as get more map control
it was an entertaining game and the builds and response from flash was interesting, its just that fantasy made some big mistakes and it was not a close game at all, thus not really a game i would recommend
that wasn't a mistake, you can't call it a mistake just cus it failed
it was a gamble and he lose it. if it succeeded people would be singing a diff tone, calling it timing and fantasy a genius or whatever.
Either way, it was complete rape by flash... not really a close game nor one that I would recommend
hardly a standard rape where one player plays like crap
completely countering every strategy your opponent throws at you like you saw it coming yesterday is very recommended
On August 19 2010 13:21 Lightwip wrote: No idea how that happened.
The first time he did ran up the ramp was crucial, because Kal had just blundered away two reavers, two shuttles, and several dragoons, and Bisu was understandably feeling ahead. But Bisu sort of under-committed/overcommitted to that attack at the third. He's either got to get his entire army up that ramp, before fighting, or he's got to only send the zealots/shuttle there to harass and feint Kal's army away, and then pressure Kal at his natural with his dragoons.
Sure he got some probes, but he lost many more dragoons, and a reaver. Poor trade. I think he also expected to end the game at that point, because he seemed to have gotten a citadel to get speedlots, instead of as a bridge to templars.
On August 19 2010 13:24 dukethegold wrote: Bisu was so damn stubborn with that push up the 3rd. He could plainly see how much reinforcement Kal had and just refused to stop pushing until he loses at least 10 goons and a reaver.
Bisu lost his mojo.
Agreed, his reavers were also below ramp in such a position they couldn't fire. After he loses half his army (while they struggle to get up the ramp I might add), he decides to shuttle them into a better position but at that point it was already too late. He lost way too many units there
Why Bisu? Your mechanics and multitasking are second to none. Why would you disappoint me by doing stupid shit like charging archons into tanks and saccing your army up ramps? Why?
Bisu: Ride up the small ramp my dragoons and crush my enemy! Dragoons: Transmit Bisu: Good. Now up the small ramp my dragoons! Dragoons: Received Bisu: Up the small ramp my dragoons! For victory shall be mine! Dragoons: Awaiting instructions. Kal: lol
On August 19 2010 13:08 .risingdragoon wrote: more like skt fans being sour puss voting no
game 2 is recommended for high skills
and also kt fans voting yes just because flash won
high skills from flash, from fantasy some really poor decisions to move out really cost him the game
I think matching tech for tech, adaptation, and timing vults, etc. going mano a mano is GG.
There was no one thing fantasy could've done to have won that one
look at the other comments;;
fanta was up in upgrades and gas bases and yet he still decided to move out of his defensive position and thus lost his 3rd gas as well as his wraiths and tanks which let flash secure his 3rd as well as get more map control
it was an entertaining game and the builds and response from flash was interesting, its just that fantasy made some big mistakes and it was not a close game at all, thus not really a game i would recommend
that wasn't a mistake, you can't call it a mistake just cus it failed
it was a gamble and he lose it. if it succeeded people would be singing a diff tone, calling it timing and fantasy a genius or whatever.
Either way, it was complete rape by flash... not really a close game nor one that I would recommend
hardly a standard rape where one player is helpless and/or plays like crap
completely countering every strategy your opponent throws at you like you foresaw it coming yesterday on is very recommended
Suppose Flash and fantasy switch places... Would you still recommend? Fo realz? Suppose you were watching MVP vs Bogus instead. Still?
Rapes shouldn't be recommended, ever, unless it's a complete underdog story, like Yellow vs Bisu, or is so awfully hilarious, like Hyun vs Shuttle. Else, they are just bad games usually.
Such a difference in bisu's play in the Ro8 between this year and last year's WCG Korea. Last year bisu played some of the best PvTs I can remember vs flash and was completely dominant PvP. The BW scene has changed so rapidly in the last year. I'm glad Flash and Jaedong have been so constant, the game would be pretty badly hurt if they fell into mediocrity.
On August 19 2010 13:23 ilj.psa wrote: bisu gamesense is gone
It's his decision making which costs him most of his games lately ...
his harass while macro trademark is also hardly seen these days ...
Kal at least attempted to harass twice that game ... one failed miserably but hey he tried ... Bisu was playing too safe ... you would have thought after he had killed two shuttles, bisu could have tried to push with his army, while harass with 1 reaver at the same time ... that way I seriously believe Kal would have had to GG ... but no, he decided to be a gentleman and let Kal recover from his significant loss to come back and win the game ...
Then he decided to filter his army to hell by walking up that ramp one by one ... seeing those goons marching up in line just to get mascaraed by Kal's fire power brought tears to my eyes ... why not the natural expo instead ... the open space is bigger, and he could have at least kill a significant amount of Kal's troops while extending his lead by the faster 4th ... he traded like 30~40 supplies for 3 or 4 goon kills ;/
On August 19 2010 13:29 integral wrote: Such a difference in bisu's play in the Ro8 between this year and last year's WCG Korea. Last year bisu played some of the best PvTs I can remember vs flash and was completely dominant PvP. The BW scene has changed so rapidly in the last year. I'm glad Flash and Jaedong have been so constant, the game would be pretty badly hurt if they fell into mediocrity.
Exactly. I'd easily rather have Kal in a PvT or PvP, and I wouldn't be too disappointed with him in a PvZ. He's been the best protoss of the last year, although free's been playing well recently, and Stork is always dangerous, but always manages to lose anyway. Bisu's back, but he's a little shaky.
On August 19 2010 13:23 ilj.psa wrote: bisu gamesense is gone
It's his decision making which costs him most of his games lately ...
his harass while macro trademark is also hardly seen these days ...
Kal at least attempted to harass twice that game ... one failed miserably but hey he tried ... Bisu was playing too safe ... you would have thought after he had killed two shuttles, bisu could have tried to push with his army, while harass with 1 reaver at the same time ... that way I seriously believe Kal would have had to GG ... but no, he decided to be a gentleman and let Kal recover from his significant loss to come back and win the game ...
Then he decided to filter his army to hell by walking up that ramp one by one ... seeing those goons marching up in line just to get mascaraed by Kal's fire power brought tears to my eyes ... why not the natural expo instead ... the open space is bigger, and he could have at least kill a significant amount of Kal's troops while extending his lead by the faster 4th ... he traded like 30~40 supplies for 3 or 4 goon kills ;/
You can't break the natural expo on FS if the toss's army is close in supply to yours and in position. And you certainly can't harass at the same time. He was correct in attacking six, but wrong in his execution.
On August 19 2010 13:08 .risingdragoon wrote: more like skt fans being sour puss voting no
game 2 is recommended for high skills
and also kt fans voting yes just because flash won
high skills from flash, from fantasy some really poor decisions to move out really cost him the game
I think matching tech for tech, adaptation, and timing vults, etc. going mano a mano is GG.
There was no one thing fantasy could've done to have won that one
look at the other comments;;
fanta was up in upgrades and gas bases and yet he still decided to move out of his defensive position and thus lost his 3rd gas as well as his wraiths and tanks which let flash secure his 3rd as well as get more map control
it was an entertaining game and the builds and response from flash was interesting, its just that fantasy made some big mistakes and it was not a close game at all, thus not really a game i would recommend
that wasn't a mistake, you can't call it a mistake just cus it failed
it was a gamble and he lose it. if it succeeded people would be singing a diff tone, calling it timing and fantasy a genius or whatever.
Either way, it was complete rape by flash... not really a close game nor one that I would recommend
hardly a standard rape where one player is helpless and/or plays like crap
completely countering every strategy your opponent throws at you like you foresaw it coming yesterday on is very recommended
Suppose Flash and fantasy switch places... Would you still recommend? Fo realz? Suppose you were watching MVP vs Bogus instead. Still?
Rapes shouldn't be recommended, ever, unless it's a complete underdog story, like Yellow vs Bisu, or is so awfully hilarious, like Hyun vs Shuttle. Else, they are just bad games usually.
a legit air power battle going on through out the game b/w two named pros, 2 of the best terrans at that, fuck yeah I would
yellow vs bisu is a strategy win, I don't recommend that unless you're a fan
On August 19 2010 13:43 Lightwip wrote: ...I hate this. Just as Flash started to slump and then Bisu started to play well, it all suddenly reverses. Damn I'm annoyed.
I'm really sorry Lightwip. Just really, really sorry. But it's ok. Bisu still can win the Heritage League. Your dreams are not yet over.
Haha I was sure Bisu would dismantle Kal, but his poor play today and solid(but not great) play from Kal secured a place for him, gj Kal, and I have no pity for u Bisu
On August 19 2010 13:46 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: too pissed off to sleep... and i've been wanting to see jd flash and bisu together in wcg since last yr was jd stork and bisu.
bisu... WHY?!?!?!?!
lol, keep this coming, the tears are delicious.
Bisu is a good player, but his micro still needs work. With any luck games like these will motivate him.
On August 19 2010 13:43 Lightwip wrote: ...I hate this. Just as Flash started to slump and then Bisu started to play well, it all suddenly reverses. Damn I'm annoyed.
I'm really sorry Lightwip. Just really, really sorry. But it's ok. Bisu still can win the Heritage League. Your dreams are not yet over.
No I think yellow will ez him in the heritage league
On August 19 2010 13:44 okum wrote: No protoss in WCG.
Even the T1 antifan within me weeps
i feel the same
me too but hopefully kal would represent auir in WCG... oh please not effort!!!
Here's a head to head comparison: Kal 4-15 Jaedong Kal 1-7 Effort Kal 1-6 Flash Hasn't won a series against any of them yet. Why start now?
that's what i don't when people fuss about kal and how he deserves more recognition. he hasn't won anything and fails completely against s class opponents as the stats show above.
i'm no kal hater, but i just think he is overated, just a solid proleaguer and nothing more
Flash was the only one who seemed to play well tonight, although I guess that isn't saying much. I was expecting fantasy to take a game, but it seemed like he never even got close really.
Bisu vs Kal was just sloppy play from both players.
kal has a better chance than usual at beating flash since it's only a Bo3 and kal only has this to practice for while flash will be practicing mostly TvT for MSL/OSL.
In the recommended section I feel the op is trolling me by saying that the winner proved he can win straight up, like opposed to what? He always wins straight up, even when his BO is disadvantageous.
hey lightwip the crazy, did u just said at the start of this thread that there are plenty guys more skilled than flash? 0_0 wheres your bisu now kid? i want to hear it from u
From this day on I will stop being a Bisu fan, I can't afford to have my beautiful days ruined by him again. Retire plz, Bisu. You are a disgrace to your own past.
On August 19 2010 15:41 mimikami wrote: From this day on I will stop being a Bisu fan, I can't afford to have my beautiful days ruined by him again. Retire plz, Bisu. You are a disgrace to your own past.
He'll recover, everyone has moments of stupidity. Especially protoss/fantasy. + Show Spoiler +
wow. so flash has broken his old record streak and is now at 13 wins in a row, and on a 8 games tvt streak. not quite the situation u want to be going into a bo5 series against him. poor fantasy.
On August 19 2010 15:41 mimikami wrote: From this day on I will stop being a Bisu fan, I can't afford to have my beautiful days ruined by him again. Retire plz, Bisu. You are a disgrace to your own past.
Finally. All hope is not yet lost upon ye departed...
On August 19 2010 16:07 Black Gun wrote: wow. so flash has broken his old record streak and is now at 13 wins in a row, and on a 8 games tvt streak. not quite the situation u want to be going into a bo5 series against him. poor fantasy.
Yah Flash looks like a machine >.< hopefully both JD and Flash are playing at their current level and can put on a finals worthy of the hype :D
I really am not excited about the upcoming b05. I hop[e fantasy does not get destroyed. But I hope more that the games are not as bland as these ones were.
On August 19 2010 16:07 Black Gun wrote: wow. so flash has broken his old record streak and is now at 13 wins in a row, and on a 8 games tvt streak. not quite the situation u want to be going into a bo5 series against him. poor fantasy.
technically he lost to calm in the STX masters cup a little bit ago...
On August 19 2010 14:49 endy wrote: sad day for T1 fans Hope fanta will do better this afternoob
Freudian slip?
I laughed... Still laughing, actually. Additionally, say afternoob out loud: it even sounds funny!
Mehhhh anyway, WGC has been super-underwhelming, but the semifinals offer some tasty goodness!
ROFL, didn't do it on purpose. I should post this in the thread "You know you play too much starcraft when..." you type afternoob instead of afternoon. Damn, I hope I don't make that kind of mistake when I type official reports for my company
On August 19 2010 15:41 mimikami wrote: From this day on I will stop being a Bisu fan, I can't afford to have my beautiful days ruined by him again. Retire plz, Bisu. You are a disgrace to your own past.
He did so fucking well during the playoffs (except the grand finals and his D+ mistake supply blocked vs Effort), it's too early to give up on him !
On August 19 2010 16:07 Black Gun wrote: wow. so flash has broken his old record streak and is now at 13 wins in a row, and on a 8 games tvt streak. not quite the situation u want to be going into a bo5 series against him. poor fantasy.
technically he lost to calm in the STX masters cup a little bit ago...
It's a good thing too because Flash has trouble winning more than 12 consecutive televised games at a time for some reason. This allowed to him to sidestep that!
Kal fighting! Sadly I couldnt witness this live. Funny thing is, if he wants to qualify now, he has to beat either Jaedong, Effort or Flash, the players that always beat him. Anyway, I believe!
On August 19 2010 16:07 Black Gun wrote: wow. so flash has broken his old record streak and is now at 13 wins in a row, and on a 8 games tvt streak. not quite the situation u want to be going into a bo5 series against him. poor fantasy.
technically he lost to calm in the STX masters cup a little bit ago...
It's a good thing too because Flash has trouble winning more than 12 consecutive televised games at a time for some reason. This allowed to him to sidestep that!
Flash is imba even in winning streaks.. lol.... haha just kidding.. its great for BW to have such a strong player for terrans... He does deserve the hate from zergs because it feeds the rivalry.. gogo Flash vs Jaedong!!!
Hey, when are the WCG semis brackets going to be posted? Jaedong might have some nasty scheduling problems with his MSL Semis with Light at 4:30 in the afternoon lol, and the WCG starting at 12:30...
I wonder what will happen if Flash forgets his ruler and he gets one in LA that uses inches only. Could a foreigner actually take a game off him if his keyboard and mouse are slightly out of position?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/47kXZ.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g5u8y.png)
Flash vs 
Bisu vs ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wKK2p.png)
Good bye & good luck)![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lZAHM.png)
![[image loading]](http://i34.tinypic.com/34r810m.png)
![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/2hygoet.jpg)
some1 just suicided a bunch of golis so id imagine he's fantasy
![[image loading]](http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3268/12726310881.jpg)
