Let's hope ForGG tries to win so we get some interesting games. After all, he's tasted victory in the past, he won't just roll over and play dead because he's playing his teammate and current strongest player, right? Right?
On August 12 2010 18:24 mustaju wrote: I want Calm to win. After such a long slump, being denied in the PL, WCG and OSL, he really needs something to keep him going.
On August 12 2010 18:24 mustaju wrote: I want Calm to win. After such a long slump, being denied in the PL, WCG and OSL, he really needs something to keep him going.
On August 12 2010 18:24 mustaju wrote: I want Calm to win. After such a long slump, being denied in the PL, WCG and OSL, he really needs something to keep him going.
Chicken.
STX gave all of it away, remember?
There will always be more chicken, the question is what the players will have to do to get it :/
Triathlon managed to get thumbed down not once, but four times, by both the terrans and the zerg... and based on the games played so far it doesn't look like the protoss will like it better either.
On August 12 2010 18:33 Tianx wrote: Triathlon managed to get thumbed down not once, but four times, by both the terrans and the zerg... and based on the games played so far it doesn't look like the protoss will like it better either.
Lol at that map.
Triathlon imbalanced against all races in ALL matchups
On August 12 2010 18:33 Tianx wrote: Triathlon managed to get thumbed down not once, but four times, by both the terrans and the zerg... and based on the games played so far it doesn't look like the protoss will like it better either.
Lol at that map.
Triathlon imbalanced against all races in ALL matchups
I can totally understand why players don't like it, but it does lead to some interesting games sometimes.
the 2 wraiths run into a goliath on the way there and back off
another rine out for flash in forgg's main
forgg resigned to using his 4 wraiths to shoot at the rax - it lifts, making it EASIER to forgg to finish it off, forgg bunkers his ramp as goliaths attack
desperate 4-scv repair of the supply deopt
4 wraiths in flash's main - goliaths kill 2 despite cloak, scan, and forgg concedes.
Flash is such a maphacker. He scouted Violet's proxy too in another teamkill match. I bet he sneaks into the practice room at night and analyzes through their replays to see their strategies :O
Flash,Effort,Jaedong and Fantasy.If this 4 players advance to the semis its anybody`s tournament.Any one of them can become champion.I`m really rooting for them.
I sense a massive losing streak from mister forGG... Ever since his game vs best at Playoffs his old, losing, self seems to come back on him. ForGG < BeSt ForGG < Effort ForGG < Flash no matchup left to lose
On August 12 2010 18:44 Kinky wrote: Flash is such a maphacker. He scouted Violet's proxy too in another teamkill match. I bet he sneaks into the practice room at night and analyzes through their replays to see their strategies :O
Chances are Flash helped them come up with these strategies for group stages and such. =\
Well a single proxy factory isn't really a strong attack on its own - unless there's another factory at home, or some other kind of followup. A proxy factory either commits to low-econ attack that must do damage (with another factory at home) or is something one places if not committing to a lot of ground units to start off the game (make a few units then lift and bring home) so that might have been what triggered Flash's suspicions of wraiths.
On August 12 2010 18:45 moopie wrote: It's a shame they can't both advance, but wow.... Scan the proxy fac -> bunker rush it.
Sense the 2 port wraiths -> rush to scans and goliaths.
Then the aggressiveness with the marines from the forward rax... I hope that forGG planned some timing pushes for the rest of the games today.
Flash didn't scan the proxy fac.. he scouted it with his SCV..
he also didn't "sense" the 2 port wraiths.. he scouted it with his floating rax.. that was the reason why he planted it as a forward rax in the first place
On August 12 2010 18:47 zmeqt wrote: Flash,Effort,Jaedong and Fantasy.If this 4 players advance to the semis its anybody`s tournament.Any one of them can become champion.I`m really rooting for them.
On August 12 2010 18:45 moopie wrote: It's a shame they can't both advance, but wow.... Scan the proxy fac -> bunker rush it.
Sense the 2 port wraiths -> rush to scans and goliaths.
Then the aggressiveness with the marines from the forward rax... I hope that forGG planned some timing pushes for the rest of the games today.
Flash didn't scan the proxy fac.. he scouted it with his SCV..
he also didn't "sense" the 2 port wraiths.. he scouted it with his floating rax.. that was the reason why he planted it as a forward rax in the first place
Yes meant scout not scan. And I don't think his rax saw the starports at the back of the base, but its possible I missed that.
On August 12 2010 18:48 Metalwing wrote: Mystlord, you mofo. Why don't you let us watch beautiful korean girls ? That's it, I'm out of that place. I'll watch Grobyc.
Forgg not bother to wall with his starting depot this game Flash with no forward early scv, builds a depot in his main too but still he scouts relatively quickly
On August 12 2010 18:48 Metalwing wrote: Mystlord, you mofo. Why don't you let us watch beautiful korean girls ? That's it, I'm out of that place. I'll watch Grobyc.
Forgg having to start a bunker in his nat, since his fact is behind Flash's. Since his econ lead was so small to begin with, that might make them pretty close to even.
Flash going 2port wraith, with the 2 starports split for anti-scouting purposes.
Flash using 2 wraiths to kill the barracks before it scouts the 2port; it'll just see 1 starport, though Forgg might know what's up by the 3 wraith count at this time.
forgg reveals his mass wraiths and ground army, sieges up somewhat south of flash's nat - forgg loses a lot of his wraiths to flash's micro he's pulling his army back from the narrow path
I cant help thinking ForGG wasnt even really trying during the second half of this game. His play was too bad, and his disappointment too theatrical :-p
On August 12 2010 19:04 Grobyc wrote: wtf forgg goliaths do not beat tanks
forgg ggs
Yeah but tanks don't beat wraiths either. He was done after losing those forces on the attack on 3 and he knew it. The gg was just delayed for a a minute so his fresh goliaths could earn a heroes' death and join their brethren in the mech afterlife.
ForGG looks a bit resigned in the waiting room Flash with no smile at all as the interview starts well actually you can sort of see a hint of a smile as he speaks...but I might be reading too much into it.
He was psychologically beaten even before playing the series. Playing against Flash, someone he probably constantly loses to in practice, and the current number 1 ranked player...
On August 12 2010 19:08 FirstProbe wrote: He was psychologically beaten even before playing the series. Playing against Flash, someone he probably constantly loses to in practice, and the current number 1 ranked player...
Sure seemed like it in his play. Very uninspired.
At the very least he should have scanned to make sure there wasn't a line of tanks waiting for him. If his attack towards Flash's nat went a bit better he could have had a good advantage.
On August 12 2010 19:18 dkpl wrote: whatever mystlord was streaming, I couldn't stop watching LOL. I paid more attention to the movie than the games itself hahaha
It's called Cat Shit One, if you want to go find the whole thing.
wtf lol fantasy has random marines running around the map. it does get a drone on a bad rally tho. fanta has a nice M&M force now with 2 vessels to support. decent split on this irradiate, thats a first this game
On August 12 2010 19:34 Chen wrote: omg i missed the entire battle cause the stream crashed =.=;;;
It wasn't much of a battle. Fantasy caught Calm with his sunkens morphing in with nothing but muta, destroyed everything. Hive/defilers were at least two minutes away, to boot - not a comfortable win by Fantasy, but a decisive one.
On August 12 2010 19:34 raga4ka wrote: I can't believe Calm he has the most awesomest builds and he fails like that ... Anything else then pure mutas would have won that ...
ehhh wasn't calm who invented/popularized that build. been used a little more since JD used it
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
Not like you have to play fancy to beat Calm the way he has been these past few months.
Wow it's lucky this isn't SC2 or everyone would be screaming Terran imba.
ehh probably but i've seen this quote posted multiple times in LR threads lately and even though it's true it's getting rather tiring. not saying it's always you or anything, but yeah...
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
I never understood this reasoning. Why does the game count affect how good of an idea it is to cheese?
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
Pretty sure he tried this in game 3 of the OSL finals against Jaedong.
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
The thing is, I don't think most players change the builds they use based on what results of previous games of the day...they've probably got a build practiced for the map and matchup that they'll use no matter what happens.
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
I never understood this reasoning. Why does the game count affect how good of an idea it is to cheese?
The general idea is if you only need 1 game to win a series that your opponent has extra stress on him. If you get a solid cheese against him he might already be flustered or taking a slight risk with their own build to try to make sure the series continues if they feel their standard play isn't as strong as yours.
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
The thing is, I don't think most players change the builds they use based on what results of previous games of the day...they've probably got a build practiced for the map and matchup that they'll use no matter what happens.
I'm sure they do, based on the reception/results of their previous strategy in the previous games in the same series (of that day). The mindgame is not just a per-game thing.
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
The thing is, I don't think most players change the builds they use based on what results of previous games of the day...they've probably got a build practiced for the map and matchup that they'll use no matter what happens.
I'm sure they do, based on the reception/results of their previous strategy in the previous games in the same series (of that day). The mindgame is not just a per-game thing.
You think so? I'd bet most players don't, although I'm sure several do. The way most pro players practice is through repeating the same build on the same map for a certain match. In my uninformed view I don't think this is the best way, but that's the way things are done.
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
I never understood this reasoning. Why does the game count affect how good of an idea it is to cheese?
The general idea is if you only need 1 game to win a series that your opponent has extra stress on him. If you get a solid cheese against him he might already be flustered or taking a slight risk with their own build to try to make sure the series continues if they feel their standard play isn't as strong as yours.
if that were the case though (that your standard play is stronger) why not continue to play standard?
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
The thing is, I don't think most players change the builds they use based on what results of previous games of the day...they've probably got a build practiced for the map and matchup that they'll use no matter what happens.
I'm sure they do, based on the reception/results of their previous strategy in the previous games in the same series (of that day). The mindgame is not just a per-game thing.
You think so? I'd bet most players don't, although I'm sure several do. The way most pro players practice is through repeating the same build on the same map for a certain match. In my uninformed view I don't think this is the best way, but that's the way things are done.
I've seen a few times in interviews players say something like "I had X build prepared for if I won the first game, and Y build prepared if I lost," or something along those lines.
I don't think they change on the fly, but it's certainly possible that they prepared 2 build orders for a given map, and pick which one they'll do depending on the situation.
Calm does the only possible follow-up, a 1-base spire. Firebat for fantasy but calm has a sunk finished so a break is unlikely. OH LOL RUNBY INSTEAD. 1 FIREBAT AND 1 MARINE MAKE IT BEHIND THE MIN LINE
On August 12 2010 19:38 Faranth wrote: Wouldn't be surprised to see Fantasy cheese to try and get a quick 3-0. Even if he loses, he still would have 2 games to seal the deal.
I never understood this reasoning. Why does the game count affect how good of an idea it is to cheese?
The general idea is if you only need 1 game to win a series that your opponent has extra stress on him. If you get a solid cheese against him he might already be flustered or taking a slight risk with their own build to try to make sure the series continues if they feel their standard play isn't as strong as yours.
if that were the case though (that your standard play is stronger) why not continue to play standard?
Not saying I agree with the sentiment, but I imagine it's mostly on the pressure. An all-in or cheese, which is hard enough to defend against, is made that much more difficult when the person is 1 game away from elimination and possibly stressed.
Fantasy controlled that game beautifully. Don't blame terran for it. Calm had a really good chance to win last game, especially after that slow ling drop.
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
And 0 in the last 4.
Lol, have I missed the other games in the RO8?
And it's still pretty insane how much whining there is about T, when Zergs have won the majority of starleagues for years now and Protoss has been close to marginalized
Anything other then a T winning this MSL would be a travesty. I don't have much hope for EffOrt and Jaedong tomorrow. Maybe at least one of them can make it.
However, Calm losing probably has not much to do with the maps, he is just not playing well.
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
And 0 in the last 4.
Lol, have I missed the other games in the RO8?
And it's still pretty insane how much whining there is about T, when Zergs have won the majority of starleagues for years now and Protoss has been close to marginalized
Light and Sea both won despite playing worse than Effort and Jaedong, and Polaris is coming up again. Not to mention Triathlon and Odd-Eye. If by some miracle a Zerg makes the Ro4 it will be by the sheer incompetence of the Terran, and there would have to be a LOT of incompetence for a Terran to lose on these maps.
And I fail to see how Protoss doing poorly affects the fact that Terran is bullshit.
On August 12 2010 20:02 Malinor wrote:
However, Calm losing probably has not much to do with the maps, he is just not playing well.
Its clear. Zerg and Terran players are in majority crybabies. Zergs whining against terrans and they dont want to confess that they are ripping protoss apart in similar manner that Terrans are ripping Zergs. They ignoring the fact that Zergs had the most players in finals (and probably semis) of all races. Terrans were crybabies against the protoss for years. No metter that Protoss are infact the least succesfull race of all.
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
lol, nice.
I wonder if Flash will get another dual StarLeague finals.
Well, the MSL should be no problem. I like Fantasy, but facing Flash in a TvT BO5 is just insane. BO3..maybe...but I don't see Flash losing a BO5 to anyone but Skyhigh
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
lol, nice.
I wonder if Flash will get another dual StarLeague finals.
Well, the MSL should be no problem. I like Fantasy, but facing Flash in a TvT BO5 is just insane. BO3..maybe...but I don't see Flash losing a BO5 to anyone but Skyhigh
Well at the very least I hope Fantasy doesn't play predictably.
On August 12 2010 20:05 hitthat wrote: Its clear. Zerg and Terran players are in majority crybabies. Zergs whining against terrans and they dont want to confess that they are ripping protoss apart in similar manner that Terrans are ripping Zergs. They ignoring the dfact that Zergs had the most players in finals (and probably semis) of all races. Terrans were crybabies against the protoss for years. No metter that Protoss are infact the least succesfull race of all.
Ye, you have a point. Next time Jaedong or Effort beats a Protoss, just mention for fun that ZvP seems a little lopsided. You'll instantly get swarmed by fanboys claiming that the Protoss just got totally outplayed and deserved to lose.
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
lol, nice.
I wonder if Flash will get another dual StarLeague finals.
Well, the MSL should be no problem. I like Fantasy, but facing Flash in a TvT BO5 is just insane. BO3..maybe...but I don't see Flash losing a BO5 to anyone but Skyhigh
Well at the very least I hope Fantasy doesn't play predictably.
He will probably cheese at least one game and I expect to see alot of stuff like 2-port wraith trying to catch Flash off guard. But in a BO5 you have to play some straightup games too and Flash > Fantasy in that scenario most of the time
Triathlon, odd-eye and all is probably behind alot of the terran imba. But a more important problem is that protoss can no longer win any mu consistently, so the game on the highest level is reduced to tvz (and the mirrors ofc) which is a very imba mu in favor of terran. Lets face it, if all good terrans got stomped in the early stages, Jaedong would dominate like flash is dominating now. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong lost a boX against a non-terran?
On August 12 2010 20:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: He also got cheesed twice >.>
A sunken break without sunkens isn't cheese.
And regarding the last game, it's Calm's fault for 12 hatching like clockwork on two player maps.
I take it back, 3 Rax Sunken break isn't cheese, it's just total bullshit with no drawbacks. All you're sacrificing is a few SCVs in the early game, and if Zerg doesn't scout you at the exact right time there'll be no way for him to react in time. Lose your expo? Woops you're 1 v 2 bases. Lose a few too many Drones? Woops you're 1.5 v 2 bases. Oh, you played perfectly and defended? Yay you're 2 base vs 2 base.
And yes, let's blame Calm for doing the standard Zerg opening in ZvT. Cause then it's obviously his fault lol.
On August 12 2010 20:09 Elroi wrote: Triathlon, odd-eye and all is probably behind alot of the terran imba. But a more important problem is that protoss can no longer win any mu consistently, so the game on the highest level is reduced to tvz (and the mirrors ofc) which is a very imba mu in favor of terran. Lets face it, if all good terrans got stomped in the early stages, Jaedong would dominate like flash is dominating now. I mean, when was the last time Jaedong lost a boX against a non-terran?
Honestly Polaris is a very Protoss favored map. If anything Protosses should've capitalized on the map to their advantage. PvT is a breeze there and PvZ is tilted pretty heavily in Protoss' favor. But alas no, so now we get a 4T semifinals. Woo.
Thanks to Kentor and the others for streaming. How many streams did you have open to make sure we had something smooth to watch? I shake my head at the lengths you guys go, thanks again.
Light and Sea both won despite playing worse than Effort and Jaedong, and Polaris is coming up again. Not to mention Triathlon and Odd-Eye. If by some miracle a Zerg makes the Ro4 it will be by the sheer incompetence of the Terran, and there would have to be a LOT of incompetence for a Terran to lose on these maps.
And I fail to see how Protoss doing poorly affects the fact that Terran is bullshit.
I don't see how Jaedong played better then Sea. In fact, I thought Jaedong played rather poorly after early game. Effort, kind of the same. Wasted so much gass on guards (which never work ZvT) and then played very uncoordinated lategame.
And if Terran is bullshit, because TvZ is unbalanced, isn't Zerg bullshit because ZvP is just as imbalanced (probably even worse)?
On August 12 2010 20:10 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I take it back, 3 Rax Sunken break isn't cheese, it's just total bullshit with no drawbacks. All you're sacrificing is a few SCVs in the early game, and if Zerg doesn't scout you at the exact right time there'll be no way for him to react in time. Lose your expo? Woops you're 1 v 2 bases. Lose a few too many Drones? Woops you're 1.5 v 2 bases. Oh, you played perfectly and defended? Yay you're 2 base vs 2 base.
If that REALLY was the case Terrans would use it every game. But the Terran's far behind if it gets defended, especially once the mutalisks emerge.
I don't see how Jaedong played better then Sea. In fact, I thought Jaedong played rather poorly after early game. Effort, kind of the same. Wasted so much gass on guards (which never work ZvT) and then played very uncoordinated lategame.
So you don't know how the game works so you think Jaedong and Effort played worse. Lol ok.
And if Terran is bullshit, because TvZ is unbalanced, isn't Zerg bullshit because ZvP is just as imbalanced (probably even worse)?
Terran is bullshit cause T > Z and T basically = P despite what Terrans like to think. ZvP imbalance is present, but still less than TvZ. Much less. Hell there was a time when P > Z when Bisu beat Savior. Nothing even close to that ever happened with ZvT. During "Swarm Season" ZvT winrate was about 51% lol T_T
Light and Sea both won despite playing worse than Effort and Jaedong, and Polaris is coming up again. Not to mention Triathlon and Odd-Eye. If by some miracle a Zerg makes the Ro4 it will be by the sheer incompetence of the Terran, and there would have to be a LOT of incompetence for a Terran to lose on these maps.
And I fail to see how Protoss doing poorly affects the fact that Terran is bullshit.
I don't see how Jaedong played better then Sea. In fact, I thought Jaedong played rather poorly after early game. Effort, kind of the same. Wasted so much gass on guards (which never work ZvT) and then played very uncoordinated lategame.
And if Terran is bullshit, because TvZ is unbalanced, isn't Zerg bullshit because ZvP is just as imbalanced (probably even worse)?
The point is, I think, that terran seems to have no difficult mu anymore. If you add to that the fact that they play turtle mech which is horrible from a spectators perspective and that one notable terran (Sea) just said in an interview that there is no way for zerg to beat a terran on an average map without the terran doing some kind of mistake, the flaming becomes more understandable.
So you don't know how the game works so you think Jaedong and Effort played worse. Lol ok.
Yes, that is what I think. Explain to me exactly what Jaedong or Effort did in those games that qualifies as 'outplaying' the Terran
Terran is bullshit cause T > Z and T basically = P despite what Terrans like to think. ZvP imbalance is present, but still less than TvZ. Much less. Hell there was a time when P > Z when Bisu beat Savior. Nothing even close to that ever happened with ZvT. During "Swarm Season" ZvT winrate was about 51% lol T_T
Actually, long term winrates in TvZ and ZvP are roughly equal. Sure there was a short time in BW history where P>Z, but that was followed by Swarm Season, where Protoss lost just about every game to Z for a very long time.
Terran is bullshit cause T > Z and T basically = P despite what Terrans like to think. ZvP imbalance is present, but still less than TvZ. Much less. Hell there was a time when P > Z when Bisu beat Savior. Nothing even close to that ever happened with ZvT. During "Swarm Season" ZvT winrate was about 51% lol T_T
So, you have no problem with Bisu beating Savior 3:0, but Jeadong beating Flash 3:1 is not the case? I dont see many differences between T>Z and Z>P. If there are, than explain this. All i see are Zergs taking majority trophies in 2009 and 1/2 of the trophies in 2010. They were always overepresented race in the final, just count this shit.
On August 12 2010 20:02 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: He also got cheesed twice >.>
A sunken break without sunkens isn't cheese.
And regarding the last game, it's Calm's fault for 12 hatching like clockwork on two player maps.
I take it back, 3 Rax Sunken break isn't cheese, it's just total bullshit with no drawbacks. All you're sacrificing is a few SCVs in the early game, and if Zerg doesn't scout you at the exact right time there'll be no way for him to react in time. Lose your expo? Woops you're 1 v 2 bases. Lose a few too many Drones? Woops you're 1.5 v 2 bases. Oh, you played perfectly and defended? Yay you're 2 base vs 2 base.
And yes, let's blame Calm for doing the standard Zerg opening in ZvT. Cause then it's obviously his fault lol.
3 rax is do or die (it was "only" 2 raxes though iirc, which used to be considered common btw). If the Zerg scouts it and makes sunkens in time, Terran will be stuck with 1 base or a very late nat and will most likely have to defend perfectly in order to have a chance at all.
As someone said above, if it was so reliably effective players would do it a lot more (which would change the whole metagame of the matchup in the process).
Zergs just don't have good ZvTs these days except for Jaedong. And MSL maps aren't exactly helping either.
Terran is bullshit cause T > Z and T basically = P despite what Terrans like to think. ZvP imbalance is present, but still less than TvZ. Much less. Hell there was a time when P > Z when Bisu beat Savior. Nothing even close to that ever happened with ZvT. During "Swarm Season" ZvT winrate was about 51% lol T_T
Actually, long term winrates in TvZ and ZvP are roughly equal. Sure there was a short time in BW history where P>Z, but that was followed by Swarm Season, where Protoss lost just about every game to Z for a very long time.
[QUOTE]On August 12 2010 20:21 Lann555 wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2010 20:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
[QUOTE]
Terran is bullshit cause T > Z and T basically = P despite what Terrans like to think. ZvP imbalance is present, but still less than TvZ. Much less. Hell there was a time when P > Z when Bisu beat Savior. Nothing even close to that ever happened with ZvT. During "Swarm Season" ZvT winrate was about 51% lol T_T [/QUOTE]
Actually, long term winrates in TvZ and ZvP are roughly equal. Sure there was a short time in BW history where P>Z, but that was followed by Swarm Season, where Protoss lost just about every game to Z for a very long time. [/QUOTE]
long term winrates are probably unreliable, you should probably look at winrates for the past year the past season or 2 protoss has been doing pretty well against zerg, you get the 6 dragons, stats, horang2, movie also for most off the current maps (except dreamliner) the tvz winrate is like 67%
and you get 1/2 zerg starleagues in 2010 due to a power outage and 3 consecutive allins
Just relax, both JD and Effort are not out yet, why are you Zerg's panic in the first place? Did you really expect that Calm-in-slump could beat fantasy in current not-so-bad form?
On August 12 2010 20:05 hitthat wrote: Its clear. Zerg and Terran players are in majority crybabies. Zergs whining against terrans and they dont want to confess that they are ripping protoss apart in similar manner that Terrans are ripping Zergs. They ignoring the dfact that Zergs had the most players in finals (and probably semis) of all races. Terrans were crybabies against the protoss for years. No metter that Protoss are infact the least succesfull race of all.
Ye, you have a point. Next time Jaedong or Effort beats a Protoss, just mention for fun that ZvP seems a little lopsided. You'll instantly get swarmed by fanboys claiming that the Protoss just got totally outplayed and deserved to lose.
ah..good times..
I don't think that's really true infact i see people saying all the time that ZvP is ridiculous.
On August 12 2010 20:05 hitthat wrote: Its clear. Zerg and Terran players are in majority crybabies. Zergs whining against terrans and they dont want to confess that they are ripping protoss apart in similar manner that Terrans are ripping Zergs. They ignoring the dfact that Zergs had the most players in finals (and probably semis) of all races. Terrans were crybabies against the protoss for years. No metter that Protoss are infact the least succesfull race of all.
Ye, you have a point. Next time Jaedong or Effort beats a Protoss, just mention for fun that ZvP seems a little lopsided. You'll instantly get swarmed by fanboys claiming that the Protoss just got totally outplayed and deserved to lose.
ah..good times..
I don't think that's really true infact i see people saying all the time that ZvP is ridiculous.
It's a known and accepted fact. The terran fanboys just won't admit the same about TvZ. They should listen to Sea.
I think some might want to reread this article. It shows that the match up evolves when the players innovates, and that there is a little more to the TvZ imba than meets the eye. Time for a Zerg to find a counter to that imba mech transition ! And also remember what were the maps when sAviOr made dual finals... Jaedong and EffOrt are not out, and the OSL is far from over too.
On August 12 2010 21:14 corumjhaelen wrote: I think some might want to reread this article. It shows that the match up evolves when the players innovates, and that there is a little more to the TvZ imba than meets the eye. Time for a Zerg to find a counter to that imba mech transition ! And also remember what were the maps when sAviOr made dual finals... Jaedong and EffOrt are not out, and the OSL is far from over too.
yeah that thread owns, does anyone know if theres a similar one for pvz or pvt?
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
Doesn't mean much unfortunately.
S class terran have an incredible winrate against zergs theses days.
Since Nate MSL, Light is 26 - 2 in TvZ. That's something like 92%. Flash is 20 - 5, with 4 of his 5 loses to EffOrt. That's 80%. Remove Effort and that's a pretty 95% vs non-Effort Zergs.
Fantasy is 16 - 4 since Hana Daetoo MSL. That's 80% too.
And ForGG is 14 - 6 in his last 20 TvZ. 70%. Yes sir.
Zerg still manage even against very good players like Sea or Leta. They do even very well against lesser gamers. But at the moment the metagame really favors top class terrans in TvZ.
As a Calm fan, it must be said that he didn't lose because of any imba (although maybe PR), but because he's just been very bad at ZvT for the last year. This result was as predictable as it was depressing.
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
Doesn't mean much unfortunately.
S class terran have an incredible winrate against zergs theses days.
Since Nate MSL, Light is 26 - 2 in TvZ. That's something like 92%. Flash is 20 - 5, with 4 of his 5 loses to EffOrt. That's 80%. Remove Effort and that's a pretty 95% vs non-Effort Zergs.
Fantasy is 16 - 4 since Hana Daetoo MSL. That's 80% too.
And ForGG is 14 - 6 in his last 20 TvZ. 70%. Yes sir.
Zerg still manage even against very good players like Sea or Leta. They do even very well against lesser gamers. But at the moment the metagame really favors top class terrans in TvZ.
Sure, TvZ is pretty lopsided these days, but I just don't get why Zerg-fans here keep playing the vicitim when they have a similary easy matchup. Jaedong/Effort have been rocking 80%+ winrates ZvP in the last 18 months. And Zergs are also still winning Starleagues every season. How many seasons has it been since Zerg didn't win one of the starleagues? Seems to me they are still doing fine overall, yet every time a big name Zerg loses to a Terran, you have 3 pages filled with anti-terran rage.
why cant zergs bitch about tvz? im sure most zergs would admit pvz is pretty horrendous, but so what? why cant they have a bitch about their 'hard' matchup too?
On August 13 2010 00:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:59 Lann555 wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
Doesn't mean much unfortunately.
S class terran have an incredible winrate against zergs theses days.
Since Nate MSL, Light is 26 - 2 in TvZ. That's something like 92%. Flash is 20 - 5, with 4 of his 5 loses to EffOrt. That's 80%. Remove Effort and that's a pretty 95% vs non-Effort Zergs.
Fantasy is 16 - 4 since Hana Daetoo MSL. That's 80% too.
And ForGG is 14 - 6 in his last 20 TvZ. 70%. Yes sir.
Zerg still manage even against very good players like Sea or Leta. They do even very well against lesser gamers. But at the moment the metagame really favors top class terrans in TvZ.
Sure, TvZ is pretty lopsided these days, but I just don't get why Zerg-fans here keep playing the vicitim when they have a similary easy matchup. Jaedong/Effort have been rocking 80%+ winrates ZvP in the last 18 months. And Zergs are also still winning Starleagues every season. How many seasons has it been since Zerg didn't win one of the starleagues? Seems to me they are still doing fine overall, yet every time a big name Zerg loses to a Terran, you have 3 pages filled with anti-terran rage.
4 Terrans with great TvZ compared 2 zergs with great ZvP. Eh, that's comparable, but maybe if we had a 60% ZvT map like Polaris Rhapsody for PvZ it'd be better.
On August 13 2010 00:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:59 Lann555 wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
Doesn't mean much unfortunately.
S class terran have an incredible winrate against zergs theses days.
Since Nate MSL, Light is 26 - 2 in TvZ. That's something like 92%. Flash is 20 - 5, with 4 of his 5 loses to EffOrt. That's 80%. Remove Effort and that's a pretty 95% vs non-Effort Zergs.
Fantasy is 16 - 4 since Hana Daetoo MSL. That's 80% too.
And ForGG is 14 - 6 in his last 20 TvZ. 70%. Yes sir.
Zerg still manage even against very good players like Sea or Leta. They do even very well against lesser gamers. But at the moment the metagame really favors top class terrans in TvZ.
Sure, TvZ is pretty lopsided these days, but I just don't get why Zerg-fans here keep playing the vicitim when they have a similary easy matchup. Jaedong/Effort have been rocking 80%+ winrates ZvP in the last 18 months. And Zergs are also still winning Starleagues every season. How many seasons has it been since Zerg didn't win one of the starleagues? Seems to me they are still doing fine overall, yet every time a big name Zerg loses to a Terran, you have 3 pages filled with anti-terran rage.
I know. I'm terran player and terran fan myself.
This serie made me sad, but now I realize that Clam has been bad at ZvT for over a year, so I guess it's fine.
Don't like Fantasy's style, though. Can't really explain why.
Go fantasy, keep creating builds that cause zerg tears!
You transitioned into Mech lategame. It wasn't a completely new build. I wanted to use it since a while ago but yesterday was the first time I used it in a televised match. Before I went to sleep last night, I had resolved to use the build, but because it was my first time, I didn't play as well as I could have. In the midgame, I thought I was ahead by 8:2 but I got sloppy with my defense. Because I haven't used it as much my hands aren't used to executing it but next time I will show a much cleaner execution of it. Nowadays, once a Zerg gets 4 gas it's almost impossible for Terran to win and this build was specifically to counter that. I think we will see this build much more often now.
Was it a build Oov helped you with? Usually all the Terrans in SKT, not just Coach Oov share strategies that are helpful, but this time it was all on my own.
Okay. Just watched the rep of Flash v forgg set 2 (first one played today). Mind explosion.
That bunker play. omfg. how. HOW. That's it, I'm an eternal Flash fan now. Who even THINKS about that being a possibility?? bunker + 2 scv's vs a moving vulture?? and that scv micro... that micro!!!
Sorry I'm just a little blown away right now lol excuse the Flash-worship
On August 13 2010 00:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:59 Lann555 wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
Doesn't mean much unfortunately.
S class terran have an incredible winrate against zergs theses days.
Since Nate MSL, Light is 26 - 2 in TvZ. That's something like 92%. Flash is 20 - 5, with 4 of his 5 loses to EffOrt. That's 80%. Remove Effort and that's a pretty 95% vs non-Effort Zergs.
Fantasy is 16 - 4 since Hana Daetoo MSL. That's 80% too.
And ForGG is 14 - 6 in his last 20 TvZ. 70%. Yes sir.
Zerg still manage even against very good players like Sea or Leta. They do even very well against lesser gamers. But at the moment the metagame really favors top class terrans in TvZ.
Sure, TvZ is pretty lopsided these days, but I just don't get why Zerg-fans here keep playing the vicitim when they have a similary easy matchup. Jaedong/Effort have been rocking 80%+ winrates ZvP in the last 18 months. And Zergs are also still winning Starleagues every season. How many seasons has it been since Zerg didn't win one of the starleagues? Seems to me they are still doing fine overall, yet every time a big name Zerg loses to a Terran, you have 3 pages filled with anti-terran rage.
4 Terrans with great TvZ compared 2 zergs with great ZvP. Eh, that's comparable, but maybe if we had a 60% ZvT map like Polaris Rhapsody for PvZ it'd be better.
On August 13 2010 00:02 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:59 Lann555 wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On August 12 2010 19:56 InFdude wrote: T is just bs.
I have to admit that theses days, zergs REALLY struggle.
Yeah, there are only 4 in the last 8. What a disgrace
Doesn't mean much unfortunately.
S class terran have an incredible winrate against zergs theses days.
Since Nate MSL, Light is 26 - 2 in TvZ. That's something like 92%. Flash is 20 - 5, with 4 of his 5 loses to EffOrt. That's 80%. Remove Effort and that's a pretty 95% vs non-Effort Zergs.
Fantasy is 16 - 4 since Hana Daetoo MSL. That's 80% too.
And ForGG is 14 - 6 in his last 20 TvZ. 70%. Yes sir.
Zerg still manage even against very good players like Sea or Leta. They do even very well against lesser gamers. But at the moment the metagame really favors top class terrans in TvZ.
Sure, TvZ is pretty lopsided these days, but I just don't get why Zerg-fans here keep playing the vicitim when they have a similary easy matchup. Jaedong/Effort have been rocking 80%+ winrates ZvP in the last 18 months. And Zergs are also still winning Starleagues every season. How many seasons has it been since Zerg didn't win one of the starleagues? Seems to me they are still doing fine overall, yet every time a big name Zerg loses to a Terran, you have 3 pages filled with anti-terran rage.
Maybe it's because Zerg actually has a bad match-up, whereas PvT is still quite even. Protoss of course is the worst off, but that really is a problem with PvT and not PvZ.
It's first time in ages when a non Flash terran got into semis of any league (seriously, go check it yourself) and zerg fanboys are all over the place. But keep it coming, the whining only makes every terran win so much sweeter.
And honestly I expect Jaedong to get to the finals of this MSL anyway. Not sure why people are writing him off after losing the first game in a BO5. Short term memory I guess.
Besides, Sea will revert to his old habit of choking hardcore
All we need is Canata teaching Fantasy the ultra-long TvT style, Flash going Turtle Terran, the series to go 5 games and we could have the longest 5 game series in the history of BW.
On August 13 2010 04:40 Vasoline73 wrote: I hope Light and Sea win just to piss off Z fanboys. Seems like every single LR thread recently is just full of rage. Give it a freaking break.
to rebut this i hope light and sea DONT win so i don't gotta watch dem tvt's
and just 2 years ago... the MSL semis was a ZvZvZvZ fest... and now the Zerg fannerds are coming out of the woodwork to diss Terrans and say how boring.
I'd rather watch a 30 minute TvT than an 8 minute BO win.
On August 13 2010 05:05 catabowl wrote: and just 2 years ago... the MSL semis was a ZvZvZvZ fest... and now the Zerg fannerds are coming out of the woodwork to diss Terrans and say how boring.
I'd rather watch a 30 minute TvT than an 8 minute BO win.
Actually it was 3 Zergs and 1 Terran, and the Terran should've advanced but was retarded and threw away 3 games after winning 2 in handy fashion.
On August 13 2010 07:24 opsayo wrote: what does it mean when a players thumbs down a map?
That they vote against having it played, to either remove it from the game list, limit its appearance, or push it towards the later sets (4th/5th in a bo5) that may not be played.
On August 13 2010 05:05 catabowl wrote: and just 2 years ago... the MSL semis was a ZvZvZvZ fest... and now the Zerg fannerds are coming out of the woodwork to diss Terrans and say how boring.
I'd rather watch a 30 minute TvT than an 8 minute BO win.
Actually it was 3 Zergs and 1 Terran, and the Terran should've advanced but was retarded and threw away 3 games after winning 2 in handy fashion.
On August 13 2010 05:05 catabowl wrote: and just 2 years ago... the MSL semis was a ZvZvZvZ fest... and now the Zerg fannerds are coming out of the woodwork to diss Terrans and say how boring.
I'd rather watch a 30 minute TvT than an 8 minute BO win.
Actually it was 3 Zergs and 1 Terran, and the Terran should've advanced but was retarded and threw away 3 games after winning 2 in handy fashion.
he won 1 in that series but yeah
He meant Iris not Fantasy.
On August 13 2010 04:40 Vasoline73 wrote: I hope Light and Sea win just to piss off Z fanboys. Seems like every single LR thread recently is just full of rage. Give it a freaking break.
Well its just that you start to get a bit frustrated when a matchup is 37-13 in official games for the last month.
On August 13 2010 05:05 catabowl wrote: and just 2 years ago... the MSL semis was a ZvZvZvZ fest... and now the Zerg fannerds are coming out of the woodwork to diss Terrans and say how boring.
I'd rather watch a 30 minute TvT than an 8 minute BO win.
Why settle for one or the other, when you could have T v Z epicness? : (
I think something a lot of people are missing here is talking about how hard it is to design perfect maps today. To all the whiners about map imbalances - YOU try designing a perfectly balanced map that's fun to play and leads to different equally balanced styles for each race in each matchup that's interesting and leads to a good spectator experience. Do you have any idea how hard that is?
Think about it - why have 4 zergs in semi's during swarm season, and (almost) 4 terrans in semi's this time? Sure, the metagame changes and new strategies evolve, but I think the bigger reason is that the top progamers today are simply SO good they can capitalize on the SMALLEST opponent mistakes / map imbalances. The smallest differences in choke sizes, how far ledges are from places, walking distance to third gas, etc. can totally change a matchup. I think the map designers simply swung a tiny bit too far the other way after swarm season, but that's so easy to do considering how well progamers capitalize on small things, I won't get too hard on them. It's not something to cry about, it's simply a reflection of how good the players are today.
All that being said, protoss probably has the toughest time. They seem somewhat demoralized, and I can imagine that while at low levels of play they are easier to manage, at the highest possible levels of play they probably have a more limited ceiling than terran and zerg. Maybe progamers' skills have simply reached that point. (That's not to say it's not possible to play even better, but humanly possible I'm not so sure there's much farther to go.)
I find it funny that Z are complaining so much for two reasons:
1. P currently have it far worse off than Z, yet you don't see P crying about imba, there's just some sadness that nobody is carrying the torch for the race ATM (I have hopes for Stork this OSL though).
2. A large part of the reason Z is having so much trouble is because of the state of ZvP. Take Light for example, he has always been a TvZ bonjwa, but his crappy TvP has kept him from going deep in leagues. Now that the P are all getting killed off early (mostly by Z), Light gets a free run through to show off his TvZ. T > Z > P > T is only balanced if the P are in there, otherwise you just end up with T >Z. You need the P to cull the likes of Light from the T ranks, so stop 3 hat hydraing them out of the leagues .
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/alffla/BigFileMSLBanner590px.jpg)
Flash vs 
Calm vs ![[image loading]](/staff/flamewheel/SPL_LR/Results.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/flamewheel/SPL_LR/Recommended_Games.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YevMu.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i38.tinypic.com/2cdbjg2.jpg)
