EPT[MSL] Semi-Final #2 - Page 48
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
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FireGuyX
United States1712 Posts
On January 16 2010 23:26 Gumbo wrote: Just stop posting please. Im sorry but if Movie played instead of Kal, there would not have been any difference, maybe he would have taken one game. Movie has beaten By.hero and Zero in a bo3, then beat Shine a bo5. Movie has proven that he's one of the best pvz players, he certainly would give Jaedong a run for his money. Has Kal beaten an s-clss zvp recently? No. Movie's micro, mechanics, game sense, and macro against zergs is far superior to Kal's. | ||
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Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On January 17 2010 02:04 FireGuyX wrote: Movie has beaten By.hero and Zero in a bo3, then beat Shine a bo5. Movie has proven that he's one of the best pvz protoss, he certainly would give Jaedong a run for his money. Has Kal beaten an s-clss zvp recently? No. Movie's micro, game sense, and macro against zergs is far superior to Kal's. Jaedong is not Shine. He's sooo much better. He would rolled over Movie as he did with Kal. Movie is a good P but not as amazing as you claim. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
On January 17 2010 01:55 Foucault wrote: ZvP is too easy. I felt sick to my stomach watching these games lol Yeah , because multitasking with the speed of 400 and above APM is easy and all ... | ||
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
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Random_0
United States1163 Posts
I was literally shocked at how poorly a very good player like Kal played. Yes, Jaedong played well, and, yes, he makes good players look bad. But you can't watch those games and watch Jaedong v Bisu or Jaedong v Stork and think that Kal played at the level of those two. Kal made micro errors all over the place: 1) Flying corsairs over hydras 2) Setting his rally points through lurkers in his main. 3) Not storming patches of drones when he had the chance. He had strategic errors: 1) No real harass strategy. Dumping DTs and praying is not a strategy. 2) He stuck with 2-base corsair -> templar. 3) He holed up behind tons of cannons with no offensive units, the mistake of a new SC player. 4) Not defending his expansions. In general, he just looked awful. If you watched those replays without knowing who played, wouldn't you guess a crummy PvZ like Perfectman, instead of a Protoss who has classically had one of the best PvZs around like Kal? | ||
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sharkeyanti
United States1273 Posts
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
You really see the smalls things Jaedong do all the time and benefits in the long run from it, it's so awesome. Maybe I will see the VOD again from Kal:s perspective coz I actually think he played quite well contrary from what people here claiming, jaedong was just one step ahead frequently. | ||
538
Hungary3932 Posts
On January 17 2010 02:46 Random_0 wrote: Before we pile into "Flash v Jaedong" omg hype, let's take a moment to think about how badly Kal just played. I was literally shocked at how poorly a very good player like Kal played. Yes, Jaedong played well, and, yes, he makes good players look bad. But you can't watch those games and watch Jaedong v Bisu or Jaedong v Stork and think that Kal played at the level of those two. Kal made micro errors all over the place: 1) Flying corsairs over hydras 2) Setting his rally points through lurkers in his main. 3) Not storming patches of drones when he had the chance. He had strategic errors: 1) No real harass strategy. Dumping DTs and praying is not a strategy. 2) He stuck with 2-base corsair -> templar. 3) He holed up behind tons of cannons with no offensive units, the mistake of a new SC player. 4) Not defending his expansions. In general, he just looked awful. If you watched those replays without knowing who played, wouldn't you guess a crummy PvZ like Perfectman, instead of a Protoss who has classically had one of the best PvZs around like Kal? Kal's PvZ is just not the same as it was in 2007-2008 relative to the zerg skill and the metagame at the time. In 2009 he had around 50% winrate against zerg (46% since the start of 2009 with this 0-3), which is dismal from a player of his caliber. What made him being considered stonger now than ever was his overall steady performance, very steady pvt and his finally developed great pvp (77%+ since the start of 2009!). It's just deceptive that he was always known for his pvz. Anyway, you seem to be able to point out fundamental flaws in a korean progamer's play without too much effort. Has the idea occured to you that maybe his opponent just played too well? He played exceptionally bad this series? Its very hard to say such things when you're playing against a monster of the match-up on top of his game and form like Jaedong. Look at the finish of the game on fighting spirit: Kal was setting up his army in the middle to gain ground while simultaneously sending in 4 DTs on the bottom left, dropping zealots on the natural and main, and keeping up his macro. Decent multitasking against most zergs, but look at JD's reaction: defended both harasses with losing only 6-7 drones total, harassed Kal's 4th as distraction, pushed Kal's army out of the middle (slowly wearing it down in the process) and dropped his main, all within half a minute while keeping up his macro as well... I'm not saying Kal was on top of his game, but I dont think any other protoss in their current form could have stood up to Jaedong today. | ||
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Majk
Sweden146 Posts
On January 16 2010 20:36 FireGuyX wrote: Movie compared to last season has improved a lot. Especially in his PvT and PvP and last season Movie only had like 40 official games. He's still inconsistent barley above a 50% win rate, but next season I expect Movie to be a complete player. Movie's PvZ is much better then Kal's, Movie probably would of pushed Jaedong to a Go5. Nah, don't think there would have made any major difference if Movie played those games. I really like both, and I think their PvZ is amongs the absolute best but honestly JD is at another level then those two, maybe Bisu in his prime would have pushed to a 5th game. Seeing JD's ZvP today made me really think if not ZvP imba at least JDvP imba. and if Kal didn't overdo those cannons in game 3, there's truly imbalance in this matchup... Looking forward to an epic JD - Flash final. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
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BanZu
United States3329 Posts
On January 17 2010 02:46 Random_0 wrote: Before we pile into "Flash v Jaedong" omg hype, let's take a moment to think about how badly Kal just played. I was literally shocked at how poorly a very good player like Kal played. Yes, Jaedong played well, and, yes, he makes good players look bad. But you can't watch those games and watch Jaedong v Bisu or Jaedong v Stork and think that Kal played at the level of those two. Kal made micro errors all over the place: 1) Flying corsairs over hydras 2) Setting his rally points through lurkers in his main. 3) Not storming patches of drones when he had the chance. He had strategic errors: 1) No real harass strategy. Dumping DTs and praying is not a strategy. 2) He stuck with 2-base corsair -> templar. 3) He holed up behind tons of cannons with no offensive units, the mistake of a new SC player. 4) Not defending his expansions. In general, he just looked awful. If you watched those replays without knowing who played, wouldn't you guess a crummy PvZ like Perfectman, instead of a Protoss who has classically had one of the best PvZs around like Kal? It was sooooo bad... Omg, just absolutely ridiculous how many mistakes/errors he made. It was just unbelievable. | ||
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BG1
Canada1550 Posts
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MountainDewJunkie
United States10344 Posts
On January 17 2010 02:14 Slow Motion wrote: Well Kal did beat Roro who's pretty good, but that's the only good zerg he's beaten recently. He's lost to guys like Kwanro and Luxury. Kwanro has 5th highest ELO... "guys like Kwannro"... Screw you haters. | ||
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MuffinDude
United States3837 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
On January 17 2010 03:32 538 wrote: Has the idea occured to you that maybe his opponent just played too well? He played exceptionally bad this series? Its very hard to say such things when you're playing against a monster of the match-up on top of his game and form like Jaedong. Look at the finish of the game on fighting spirit: Kal was setting up his army in the middle to gain ground while simultaneously sending in 4 DTs on the bottom left, dropping zealots on the natural and main, and keeping up his macro. Decent multitasking against most zergs, but look at JD's reaction: defended both harasses with losing only 6-7 drones total, harassed Kal's 4th as distraction, pushed Kal's army out of the middle (slowly wearing it down in the process) and dropped his main, all within half a minute while keeping up his macro as well... I'm not saying Kal was on top of his game, but I dont think any other protoss in their current form could have stood up to Jaedong today. This. I just find it hard to believe that a progamer would rather play jaedong then stork right now. | ||
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538
Hungary3932 Posts
On January 17 2010 05:54 MuffinDude wrote: kal's pvz was always overrated. Good enough to take down decent~pro zergs, and able to take one or two games from pro pro zergs every once in a while, but usually loses to pro pro zergs like effort and jaedong. No, it wasnt always overrated, only since it has become his weakest matchup slowly during 2009. He kept a 70%+ winrate over 2007 and 2008. He was THE shit in PvZ, and the statistically strongest PvZ during the reign of the 6 dragoons. Can you grasp how much 70% is? Flash's current TvT is 73%, and its his strongest matchup, you can't just get 71-72% by a good draw and luck. (Though he didnt play too many games, like 40 versus zerg during that period) | ||
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Bwenjarin Raffrack
United States322 Posts
Poor Kal. With a blow like this series, I think he'll develop a mental block, and Jaedong will always be his angstgegner. | ||
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Hinanawi
United States2250 Posts
Jaedong is pretty close to being the first player to bust the 2300 mark in vP right now. | ||
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